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getrad


Apr 3, 2004, 9:02 PM
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Pin pullers on schoolroom roof
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A fellow by the name of "matt christensen" was seen hammering out the fixed pins on the Schoolroom Roof (A1). When questioned about his actions he replied that he "was cleaning up nature". This climber was not doing a meaningful service for the Salt Lake climbing community. I would like to suggest that this long-haired young man spend his time cleaning up the garbage that litters our busy crags, rather than hammering away at fixed protection.


timpanogos


Apr 3, 2004, 10:09 PM
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Good hell, who is this idiot?


galf


Apr 4, 2004, 1:25 AM
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Re: Pin pullers on schoolroom roof [In reply to]
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Why not?

His statement is obviously true.

Can't the next climbers make their own placements? It would be a better learning experience for them. Also, fixed pins wear down... So maybe with guys like this, it'll bring new gear, or a wider placement for clean protection(and the rock will be protected from pouding from then on).

I don't know this crag or this route but still, his view is quite reasonable.

IMO, people are just lazy to clean pins out of roof cracks and a pin is NOT a bolt.

BTW timpanogos, you should know better... why did you clean all those heads out of your boulder if it ain't for visual reasons, eh?

Galf


barefeetnochalk


Apr 4, 2004, 3:38 AM
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Re: Pin pullers on schoolroom roof [In reply to]
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man, who gives a _ _ _ _!


mesomorf


Apr 4, 2004, 7:06 AM
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Re: Pin pullers on schoolroom roof [In reply to]
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This seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to do. After all, American climbers adopted a "clean as can be" ethic 30 years ago. If it's A1, what's it's C grade (C as in clean)? If it hasn't gone clean yet, what's holding y'all back?

In reply to:
I would like to suggest that this long-haired young man spend his time cleaning up the garbage that litters our busy crags, rather than hammering away at fixed protection.

Is his long hair a problem for you, or is it his youth, or both? How do you know he doesn't clean up garbage around the crag? Do you clean up garbage around the crag yourself? Did you suggest this to him face-to-face?

Ever hear of a term coined by Warren Harding - "Valley Christian?" Look it up.


timpanogos


Apr 4, 2004, 9:47 AM
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Re: Pin pullers on schoolroom roof [In reply to]
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That roof is a classic - the pins are documented in the guide book - when I went to mess with topo documented fixed gear on a classic llc route, at least I had the ethical guts to check the pro shops, seek fa's advice and get local consensus instead of taking it upon myself to say screw everyone else – I know what is best for this area.

I guess I should just be glad we have a new climbering “chopper” in our area who sounds like he is on a mission from god – screw the gentiles.


timpanogos


Apr 4, 2004, 10:57 AM
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Re: Pin pullers on schoolroom roof [In reply to]
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Galf said

In reply to:
IMO, people are just lazy to clean pins out of roof cracks and a pin is NOT a bolt.

Not sure exactly what you are saying here? If you are suggesting that they were lazy to not remove the pins – go check the price – at about 10 bucks a wack – it was not laziness that motivated them being left.

In reply to:
BTW timpanogos, you should know better... why did you clean all those heads out of your boulder if it ain't for visual reasons, eh?

No one will ever climb the boulder again – it was trash – if you have read that whole post, you will have also noticed that I said I had decided to leave heads I set on real routes – there is a reason for this – someone will follow.

Look closely at the pictures I posted on that boulder – first head was a #1, cleaned second head was a #2 – why is that? The fixed gear damaged the rock and when removed required a larger piece of fixed gear the next time around.

So, all your chopper friend has done here is changed a c1 (it was going clean – it’s called a bolt ladder only with fixed pins) back into a ground fall potential A2/3? (I don’t know what it would be rated now).

I’ve heard there was a fixed RRUP pulling the roof at the edge to get back on free – if your friend screwed this up – he may be leading to the need for another bolt.


jwiggins


Apr 4, 2004, 1:07 PM
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Re: Pin pullers on schoolroom roof [In reply to]
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fixed protection is noted in guide books or in one way or another people count on it being there. It is unsafe and a disservice to the community to remove fixed pro for any other reason than to replace it.

slcca, IME, Black Diamond Store, and Mountainworks are all great resources in Utah to learn about routes that are in need of repair or even a forum for discussing whether fixed protection can be removed from a route. You can even find a way to contact the first ascent party in many cases to ask permission for a change you feel is important. Realize that a first ascent is a first ascent and this person has every right to say no to the suggested change.

Bottom line... if you don't like the way a first ascent party climbed a route then go out and do your own! This is far a greater service than hacking up someone else's hard work.

BTW it takes a special type of angst to remove fixed pro from someplace like the schoolroom roof. I agree that it would be better for people that feel the this way to spend time cleaning up the beer cans left road side or better yet write letters to the LDS church asking them to finish environmetal reclamation in the Gate Buttress area after thier recent rock quarrying activities.


galf


Apr 4, 2004, 2:38 PM
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Can it be climbed clean?

If so, let it go clean. Better style, and the pins would have worn down eventualy anywaays.

In reply to:
Bottom line... if you don't like the way a first ascent party climbed a route then go out and do your own! This is far a greater service than hacking up someone else's hard work.

Ouch!!! So you believe that bad style should be kept forever (in a A1 crack that anybody could have done?) because mister X was first up?
The rock ain't his... only the pins he left behind. It's up to the individual climbers to decide if it deserves respect or not (given the new aid gear).
Hard work??? Bullsheiss! It would have been real hard work to clean it afterwards.....lazyness....

BTW, timpanogos,I know succesive placements make bigger placements possible :wtf: That was my point, it'll make the climb clean if it isn't possible yet, and will allow free climbing sometime in the future. Think they Huber brothers could have done it without it?

Finally, hard iron pins were specifically designed to be retrieved (read Yos. history). So if the debate is about those, I respect the ¨cleaner¨ , if they were soft iron(the type to leave fixed, they might break during retrieval and litter the crack)

Happy evolution,

Galf


Partner iclimbtoo


Apr 4, 2004, 2:41 PM
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Re: Pin pullers on schoolroom roof [In reply to]
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In reply to:
fixed protection is noted in guide books or in one way or another people count on it being there. It is unsafe and a disservice to the community to remove fixed pro for any other reason than to replace it.

slcca, IME, Black Diamond Store, and Mountainworks are all great resources in Utah to learn about routes that are in need of repair or even a forum for discussing whether fixed protection can be removed from a route. You can even find a way to contact the first ascent party in many cases to ask permission for a change you feel is important. Realize that a first ascent is a first ascent and this person has every right to say no to the suggested change.

Bottom line... if you don't like the way a first ascent party climbed a route then go out and do your own! This is far a greater service than hacking up someone else's hard work.

BTW it takes a special type of angst to remove fixed pro from someplace like the schoolroom roof. I agree that it would be better for people that feel the this way to spend time cleaning up the beer cans left road side or better yet write letters to the LDS church asking them to finish environmetal reclamation in the Gate Buttress area after thier recent rock quarrying activities.

Wow. Amen to that.


atg200


Apr 4, 2004, 4:07 PM
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Re: Pin pullers on schoolroom roof [In reply to]
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i'm curious how you could take a ground fall from a roof that is several pitches off the deck? bouncing off that slab wouldn't be much fun, but not nearly as bad as cratering.

if no one beats me to it, i will try to go up there next weekend and figure out if it can be done cleanly or not. if it is still a nailing line, i'll fix a few pins in it but leave out any that are unnecessary.

andrew


galf


Apr 4, 2004, 4:35 PM
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Cheers ATG,

I trully hope you'll suceed in your clean ascent!
Have a nice climb!!!

Galf. :D


jwiggins


Apr 5, 2004, 6:29 AM
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good luck! I look forward to hearing about how it went.


timpanogos


Apr 5, 2004, 7:19 AM
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In reply to:
The rock ain't his... only the pins he left behind.

galf - so, lets see its the new missionaries rock, he gets to choose?

Andrew - I consider ground fall to be ledges/slab anything but air. Don't deckon that one! Hitting that slab from that roof would be a bone buster, not just a scrapper - but what the hell do I know, the new slc movein is now the area expert. Not sure it's any different for you to now go repair the route on your own without getting a consensus than it was for me to mess with BPD

If you do replace pins, Mountain Works in Provo has soft iron and I would at least challenge you to do the right thing with it.

Chad


atg200


Apr 5, 2004, 7:36 AM
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Re: Pin pullers on schoolroom roof [In reply to]
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wow, chad. please keep in mind that i've been climbing for a *long* time, i've replaced bolts and fixed pins in other very classic and long established areas, i've established new routes, and in the last few weeks i've climbed 50-60 pitches in little cottonwood. i'm not an area expert, but i offered to go up and replace any necessary fixed gear at my expense - and i have the expertise to do it safely.

would you like me to get a consensus approval for replacing some of the crappy bolts i've found lately as well?

really, i think you are just trying to pick a fight since you didn't like some of my advice that you don't agree with in other threads.


Partner j_ung


Apr 5, 2004, 7:38 AM
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Good luck atg200. I hope it goes without any iron.

I also want to agree with timpanogos. No single person gets to decide what's best for an area. That kind of thinking invites destructive behavior on both sides of the issue.


grayhghost


Apr 5, 2004, 7:57 AM
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Just to clarify.
One of the climbers names was ____ Christiansen.
The belayers name was Matt ______.
Sorry for my poor memory.
When confronted they did not even know who the first accent party of schoolroom roof was. Also, this was a bolt ladder plain and simple, just like the bolt ladder on Spaceshot in Zion circumnavigates the original A4 flake hooking. Why do we need a C4 ground fall potential on schoolroom buttress? Finaly, these choppers went to the lip of the roof and then down-aided while chopping, they did not even attempt to clean-aid the line after it was modified, so they are not trying to progress the sport they are just plain dumb. (note: after chopping these anchors they finished a different climb and rapped off of FIXED slings to the ground)


rockprodigy


Apr 5, 2004, 8:09 AM
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The only reasonable excuse I can think of for pulling those pins would be to attempt to free climb it, which would require bolting it.

My guess is they wanted the booty, of course they wouldn't admit that when confronted.

I've looked at the roof pretty closely, and I don't see it going clean unless you can get cam hooks in the pin scars, and the cam hooks don't bend open when you weight them...make sure your belayer has 911 on speed dial!

On the other hand, I've never seen a single person on that route, so....

ATG, you should post on Utahclimbers.com to hook up with some LCC regulars.


atg200


Apr 5, 2004, 8:20 AM
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i've spent some time looking at that roof too, and was wondering about getting small lowe balls in there. it might be hard, but it would make for a really cool pitch. have you looked at trying to free it? looks like there might be some feet, but it looks awfully hard!

i've posted a bit on utahclimbers, and joe gave me the tour before he blew out of town.


timpanogos


Apr 5, 2004, 9:28 AM
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In reply to:
really, i think you are just trying to pick a fight since you didn't like some of my advice that you don't agree with in other threads.

Here is what you just said above:

In reply to:
i'm curious how you could take a ground fall from a roof that is several pitches off the deck? bouncing off that slab wouldn't be much fun, but not nearly as bad as cratering.

Seems to me you are the one being an ass and picking at anything I say – I believe “groundfall” is a term not limited to first pitch.

If it goes clean great – it now needs re-rated and future guide books should be updated to reflect this right? If it ends up CxF, new pins required, will they be soft ones?

I’m also just suggesting that others may have a more vested interest in this roof than you.

Bssmoot, brianinslc, Stocker, Meril and Scott at IME, Jeff Pederson and Darren Knezek in Provo – these are all men I contacted about bpd – they have been climbing/FA’ing this area for the last 30 years.

Seems a new move in (even though an expert) may want to make allies out of local hardman.

This is one of the first things I really learned about ethics – 1. talk is cheap – 2. public talk is protected and often not what is done in secret.

All I’m asking is if expertise foregoes the number one ethics rule – get local consensus.


Chad


atg200


Apr 5, 2004, 10:16 AM
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there are big differences between a groundfall, landing on a ledge, hitting a corner, or bouncing off a slab. the terms are not interchangeable, and calling this a groundfall is misleading. i wasn't picking on you - just clarifying semantics.

there is an awfully big difference between what you were talking about doing on the peeler and this. when you first talked to me about the peeler, you were thinking about adding a bolt or in some way pulling out the drill. that is a permanent alteration.

on this route i would simply be trying to do it in better style, and if that wasn't possible i would leave it in exactly the same (actually slightly better since the pins would be new) condition that it was in prior to the pins being cleaned. there would be no altering of the route whatsoever.

in any event, i'll probably just forget about it so i don't have to put up with sniping from some guy who has only been climbing for a year or two. i'm sorry i even volunteered to help.


timpanogos


Apr 5, 2004, 10:53 AM
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Andrew,

Hey, I’ve asked you to take me along many times – let’s go do it. It would make another great project. Let’s go do it as follows:

1. See if it’s possible to go clean and if it does, suggest a new C rating to pass around to local shops/hardmen.

2. If it will not go clean, back off it for the day – don’t fix anything.

3. If it does go clean but its super dangerous c3+ X stuff – get local consensus if it should stay this way, and if not what strategic fixed placements might leave it at a safe c3f.

4. If it obviously will not go clean – measure and map-out the roof (take pictures) and suggest potential c1f, c2f, c3f types of fixed gear placements, obtain soft pin list for the various proposed levels.

5. get local consensus and go back and do it with soft pins.

I’d love to do it with you – I’m available all day sat and sun, every weekend – I’ll be willing to do the gumby leg work of obtaining consensus and rounding up the soft pins (I’ll split cost with ya). You do the leading and rightfully claim a first clean fa – good intro for you into the community.

I have one each of the 3 smallest ball nuts I can through into the gear list, as well as a solid small cam set (in various brands).

Chad


atg200


Apr 5, 2004, 11:04 AM
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just go for it chad. a 15' roof guarded by a whole lot of 5.6 climbing is just not enough to get me fired up for a drawn out multiday project. i would much rather go to the desert and do some towers. this would be something i would quickly run up and take care of after work as a public service, but obviously i am an alien n00b that has no business doing it.


timpanogos


Apr 5, 2004, 11:20 AM
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In reply to:
I would much rather go to the desert and do some towers.

Standard reply you always give me – unless of course I ask you to take me on a tower – in which case you respond with

“I would much rather do alpine, I’m only interested in spectacular peaks”

And yet you have done 60 routes in lcc in the last few weeks?

Ok, I can finally take the hint (or wonder what you are hiding).

Chad


paintrain


Apr 5, 2004, 12:05 PM
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What's it matter? Just because the guidebook says it is fixed? It is an short aid line up off the ground a handful of pitches. Learn to pound iron. It might get done more often. Otherwise, forget the pins and put in a bolt ladder if all we want to discuss is safety aspect. I don't really see the problem other than they are a rusty piece of history.

What is that I hear - bolts are more damaging. Semantics at this point with a bunch of damaging iron sticking out of the rock (soft or not). Safety??? those iron pitons rust out and frost wedge out, you are creating a liability versus saving anyone who might try to free it.

It gets done so rarely. Just leave them out regardless at this point. Any newby who goes up there to aid it will see what he is in for and just finish by free climbing SR anyhow (they will have had to have the gear to begin with).

Is it just change that bothers you? Just curious as when I have these reactions to the same sorta stuff that I see, I dig around my brain a bit to find that to be the real reason - aside from what the guidebook says or what the FA's did. The FA's should have cleaned it anyway IMO.

Plus if it gets nailed and cleaned a couple times then rockprodigy and ATG can make it a hard free route and there won't be those unsightly pins sticking out.

PT


brianinslc


Apr 5, 2004, 12:18 PM
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In reply to:
What's it matter? Just because the guidebook says it is fixed? It is an short aid line up off the ground a handful of pitches. Learn to pound iron. It might get done more often. Otherwise, forget the pins and put in a bolt ladder if all we want to discuss is safety aspect. I don't really see the problem other than they are a rusty piece of history.

I think the fixed pins were a nice solution to a neat A1/A0 route that used to be (and still somewhat is) a fairly popular aid route. I don't think any of the pins were original and those in situ looked bomber. I believe they were all pretty new LA's (new being in the last 10 years or so).

Shame that somebody ripped off this gear from the climbing community.

Weaker yet, is that they did it on rappel. If you're going to whack out fixed pins under the premise that they shouldn't be there, then do it on point, or just leave them alone.

Havin' fixed pins on the route kept additional scarring of the rock to a minimum. Was also great aid practise for folks who didn't own any of that type of gear (pins/hammer).

Schoolroom Roof is a classic old route. Maybe someday it'll go free. But, until then, its got neat position and used to have nice fixed pro. Bummer.

Shoulda been left alone. I hope these folks don't go around stealing all the other fixed anchors in the canyon too.

Bad karma to those folk.

Brian in SLC


paintrain


Apr 5, 2004, 12:38 PM
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Fixed anchors ala belay stations, I agree. "Fixed" pins noted in a guidebook are ephemeral by their very nature and just shouldn't be trusted as a rule of thumb.

It was dickish of the guy to remove them just to pluck gear no argument there. I really doubt he was acting in any altruistic manner as he might of suggested, but then again, maybe he thinks he was doing the right thing. Hard to read the minds of hair farmers with all that stuff blocking the signal... :lol:

Safety wise though, I don't know. Yeah, neat location, but most people just play through. Yeah, beginner aid line (but you are just clipping a line of pins). There are better options that can teach alot more about aiding through easy roofs (coffin) that would be safer. Got to maple if you want to clip a line through a steep roof. I am not sure how often it gets done, but in 10 years I have seen one person on it and can remember one other guy mentioning he had actually done it.

That is why I kind of argue "are we offended at them being gone" because 1. we were going up there a couple times a year cause it is such a good route to do and we do it, 2. that he was just being dirtbag for taking them, or 3. is it that we are just used to the fact that they are always there when we play through and like the historical gear?

Succesfull yesterday? BTW

PT


timpanogos


Apr 5, 2004, 2:03 PM
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In reply to:
That is why I kind of argue "are we offended at them being gone" because 1. we were going up there a couple times a year cause it is such a good route to do and we do it, 2. that he was just being dirtbag for taking them, or 3. is it that we are just used to the fact that they are always there when we play through and like the historical gear?

You are right, pins now gone, that part of the argument is water under the bridge.


That roof was/is on my tick list.

So, now what are the ethics of the next ascension? Is this just a free for all? I’m climbing c2, I’ll give it a go, when I get scared, I’ll nail it. Heck I’m looking for nailing practice anyway. I’m a cheap bugger, I’ll clean my pins when I’m done.

I wonder, 10 years from now, as the heavy traffic that does go under that roof looks up and sees a beat out crack like Black Peeler Direct – they will at least be able to say – dang – nice to see those damn rusty pins gone!

It seems the opportunity might be here to now try and setup a c2/3F roof that might provide a cool challenge for current and future aiders as well as preserve the crack.

So what is it – am I free to do as I please with this crack now?

edit add i.e.

In reply to:
Happy evolution,



Chad


scottcody


Apr 5, 2004, 3:17 PM
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Need a belay?
Dam I live in texas, I'd be there in a heart beat if it were less than a 12hr drive.

Good luck atg.


mdhf


Apr 5, 2004, 3:45 PM
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I was up there too on Saturday with them banging away. The numbskulls looked like they just bought a new hammer and wanted to figure out how to use it. If you fell from that roof it'd hurt. :oops: I should've said something then, but didn't because I figured that they were trying to aid the route, not repair it.

REI and IME should only sell bolting/aid equiptment after you pass a not-a-dumbf*ck test. Good luck to you guys who want to replace it. Schoolroom's fun and a great intro to about everything in climbing (cracks, face, runouts, multiple pitches, traverses, and searching for a way down). Some easy aid made it even better. Hence schoolroom?


caughtinside


Apr 5, 2004, 3:48 PM
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In reply to:
REI and IME should only sell bolting/aid equiptment after you pass a not-a-dumbf*ck test.

Man, like, you're such an authoritarian with yer rules and restrictions. :lol:


paintrain


Apr 5, 2004, 3:52 PM
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That is a fine question.

I don't really have an answer. I have a suggestion, though - :twisted:

Those with the guns, give it a shot at freeing it. Those with the tech guns, give it a shot at doing it "C". It is tough because of the consequences of ripping gear on that one (could be an amalgum when factoring safety concerns - but it is an opportunity to find out).

Brian and I discussed offline it being a cool opportunity to do it like the FA, but now that you mention it, it would be a cool opportunity to up the ante with modern style. Just don't get hurt, cause it might be more like A4 with consequences factored.

An opportunity lost to beginners at this point, but one gained to those of greater skill and experience unless it gets filled with pins again.

PT


timpanogos


Apr 5, 2004, 4:35 PM
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In reply to:
Those with the guns, give it a shot at freeing it.
I don’t know all the hot shots – I know Meril at IME is working on freeing Moon Light – I assume he’s a gun – we could as him. We could also ask Jeff Pederson – I know him from his gym in Provo and would ask him.

In reply to:
Those with the tech guns, give it a shot at doing it "C".

I would sure like to go and watch and learn on this one – please invite me.

Chad


bigwalling


Apr 5, 2004, 4:37 PM
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Shit, you mean to say it's not a clip up anymore? Sounds like a real route now.

How the fuck does the pins missing make it any harder!?!? If it hasn't gone free, I don't know what you guys are bitching about.


paintrain


Apr 5, 2004, 5:46 PM
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bigwailling, bigwailing, bigwhaling or whatever,

It probably wouldn't interest you as it is only a grade I/II and with a name like that, your haulbag would be way too light.

"How the f--- does the pins missing make it any harder!?!?"
Clipping a fixed piece vs placing it yourself. Pins in vs no pins. Swing hammer and carry iron vs neither. Come on - no brainer even for a suffermaster like yourself, but like I said your haulbag would be way too light and you wouldn't get to wrestle with all that gear.

What are we talking about - 40 total feet of glory risking a deck on a slab to get your name in the guidebook with 5.xx or Cx in there. What else is there? Suffering for days on a wall? Why when you can be down by dinner?

"I don't know what you guys are b---- about." - Yup. Just chewin it over a little local piece of rock. That is why I am giving you a hard time.

Thanks for all the interesting feedback.

PT


paintrain


Apr 5, 2004, 5:49 PM
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There are many able bodies in the valley for free climbing exploits. It might be bit hairball depending on the quality of the gear though.

I would hope it stays clean for a little while so folks can give it a try. Spread the word, see if anyone gives it a run clean aid or free.

I am no gun, but I am suddenly interested in the prospect of looking at it now.

PT


bigwalling


Apr 5, 2004, 6:27 PM
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The name is kinda messed. It should be more like aiderkid or something. In fact I boulder more than anything. So I'm more of a pussy in the wall aspect.

Clipping fixed pins might make it physically easier but not rating wise. In fact your own pins will be more trustworthy. So now it is acctully easier.


timpanogos


Apr 5, 2004, 6:40 PM
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I dropped the word at the Quarry (Left a message for Jeff) as well as talking to Christian at Mountain Works (he seemed real interested (both of these for the free aspect).

Scott was working IME today - did not seem to care - I'll see if Meril is working tomorrow and let him know

I'll update with whatever i hear about any free attempts - others please do like wise

Any wave twos (clean aid attempts) let me know (I'd love to watch)

I guess if things are quite on this for a few weeks

the gumby wave can start.

Chad


galf


Apr 5, 2004, 6:53 PM
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Paintrain, I totally agree with you.

It's time your route evolved!

And I still believe clipping fixed pins is less of a schoolroom experience than pounding and cleaning them yourself.

Galf.

BTW, I'm quite interested in this topic since we have this kind of debate in our area


rockprodigy


Apr 5, 2004, 7:08 PM
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Careful what you ask for....

That thing will not be freed without bolts, so now that you have invited a bunch of sport climbers up there, don't get pissed when it gets bolted.

PS, Scott's fingers are way to fat for the roof...my money would be on Merrill, if he cares...and what do you mean he's "working" Moonlight? He should flash that thing!


timpanogos


Apr 5, 2004, 7:26 PM
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well he did not flash it, He was down there week before last I think - working on it - he said he was close to going for the redpoint - last I talked to him - waiting for the heat wave of last to pass and hoping for a cool run before the fry starts

and if it was bolted for free - if they would work with the aiders to place the bolts in a configuration that might support both cxf and free - well maybe thats a good thing?


jwiggins


Apr 5, 2004, 8:43 PM
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nice to hear your comments brian.

For anyone who is interested...

Dave Smith Wasatch Granite guide says the following about the Schoolroom roof:

"Nail the thin horizontal crack splitting the large roof. six to eight thin to medium horizontals plus a couple of knifeblades will be needed."

He rates the route F5 A2. The book I have was published in 1977. Dave works at REI. I will ask him about FA info next time I am in there.

The Ruckman's guide lists it as A1 -all fixed pins. Some time between 1977 and -hell i gave away my first edition of Wasatch North so I am not sure when the newest description hit print -now the pins were left in place.

There are others living in Utah that have done homework or were there. Jeff Lowe? Ted Wilson? The Ruckmans? Tony Calderone? How about Scott at IME?

If anyone is interested in learning about this route I would be happy to track down the info. Just post a reply and I will fill in as much as I can or ask sources to post info.

Unfortunately it is all I can do right now to contribute on this.

Can the route still be freed with fixed pins?

Don't want to be involved in any arguments -no fun and couter productive. I appologize if any of my first comments went in that direction. I get a little bumbed out when I hear about fixed pro being removed without consulting at least someone in the community. Anyone hear about Rock Canyon last year?

Send me a reply if you are interested in the info. If I get time and no one else has fixed it, I will go check out the damage and do what I can. BTW Dave Smith's guide refers to Schoolroom as "The Climber's Schoolroom". Just a little trivia Normy :wink:

Jason


paintrain


Apr 5, 2004, 9:52 PM
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It might take a girl - little fingers. Or a dude with "cabage hands" as my friends say.

Carson is definitely DQ'ed due to physical "shortcomings".

You might be right about freeing with bolts only, but it might go with clean aid if someone skinny got on it.

So, It might take a girl (or leo holding - cause he is pretty).

PT


paintrain


Apr 5, 2004, 10:00 PM
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Wait wait wait.

After all this discussion I think it would be prudent to let some of the new school aid persons check it out. Lets not get too eager to bolt it just cause its there.

You quoted youself, "Nail the thin horizontal crack splitting the large roof. six to eight thin to medium horizontals plus a couple of knifeblades will be needed." was its original description. Plus it is more "schooling" to do it clean or nailing than a blind clip up on fixed gear anyhow.

Give it the summer I say and let some folks have some fun to see what can be done without all that old FE in the way. I am sure if it is really spicy, people will drop a pin or two in so they don't deck. Bring it up again after that an see if everyone thinks it should be nailed back up.

If no one has any real comments then, I stand by my assertion that it is just because you are used to seeing the pins there and not because you are up climbing it a couple times a year.

PT


brianinslc


Apr 6, 2004, 7:22 AM
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In reply to:
After all this discussion I think it would be prudent to let some of the new school aid persons check it out. Lets not get too eager to bolt it just cause its there.

You quoted youself, "Nail the thin horizontal crack splitting the large roof. six to eight thin to medium horizontals plus a couple of knifeblades will be needed." was its original description. Plus it is more "schooling" to do it clean or nailing than a blind clip up on fixed gear anyhow.

Hey, where's bsmoot on this? His guidebook says, "the most popular aid lead on the granite" and there's a nice photo by Barstow of a feller on it as well.

Turville's (and Green's) "Desperate Grace" really doesn't have much of a description. It does say, however, "the rock, like the best of women, can only take the occasional pounding".

I'll bet it'd go clean. For someone willing to hand place pins. Its a horizontal crack. Anyone have some Wild Country zero cams they'd be willing to trash? Ha ha.

Come on, rockprodigy, you should free it. You have the best shot of anyone I know. Maybe some whack stemming. Paintrain, after some all male nude yoga, might be able to show you a move or two. Ha ha.

I'd hate (hate) to see it sprout bolts.

I'd think the fixed pins were a consensus reached by a number of the old guard. M Bitter might know. bsmoot too. Its a different situation than, say, "Stem the Tide" which used to be protected by a fixed pin and is now a bolt (ie, free climb versus A1 aid route).

"Yeehaa. All fixed pins" was in Wasatch North as well as the current guidebook, btw. And...it gets two stars on a scale of none to three.

Brian in SLC


rockprodigy


Apr 6, 2004, 7:53 AM
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I'm gonna hike up there and look at it this afternoon...see if it's worth roping up for.


jwiggins


Apr 6, 2004, 11:00 AM
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not bolt -never said and would never do. read all before reply.

at somepoint someone decided to leave fixed pins likely for rock preservation. In the past (and present) there was an effort in LCC to go clean everywhere possible and to fix pins in cracks when not. Then only bolt in the absense of placements for crack placed pro. As i understand it now and then the goal is to not leave ugly pin scars.

The coffin roof still has fixed pins and has seen at least one free ascent in the past year. if free is the goal and micros lowe balls, zeros, or any other thin fear pro cannot be used then it makes sense for this area to replace what was taken out. no bolts are necessary. I do not recall seeing the type of drainage that would prematurely weaken pins from corrosion or stress corrosion cracking. the old ones were there a long time so replacements are a logical choice unless the guys bunged up the rock terribly while removing the old.

again knock yourself out on this and by all means have fun. I do not get up to school room often and have goals in other places -also in need of anchor repair, trash clean up etc. If I see it with no pins in the fall and have time I will pop in at IME discuss replacement of pins then do it if it makes sense. Log your free or CX ascent at IME if you could please.

Opinion-evolution should be measured and balanced with preservation. I am not a big fan of replying a bunch of times to stuff but this one hits close to home. I am not likely as much of a stud as the majority of people replying to this but have spent 14 years climging in and around the Wasatch and love it! I bring my kids up LCC to scramble and climb so I have some mind for future generations of climbers. That's just me and I know there are a variety of opions and values out there that are different and i am not trying to pass my own to everyone else. just hope that this kind of stuff happens infrequently.

Have fun!

out here.

J


rockprodigy


Apr 6, 2004, 12:17 PM
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Actually, it has become fairly common in the last few years to replace fixed pins with bolts in LCC. I don't see the difference between clipping a pin and clipping a bolt, but there is a huge difference to the free climber if the pin is plugging a potential hold. Personally, I probably wouldn't bolt it, but don't be surprized if someone else does.

The pins on Coffin Roof are there out of laziness. There is excellent gear, but who among us is going to haul a hammer up there to clean some manky pins which are pretty welded?


trbrts


Apr 6, 2004, 1:05 PM
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In reply to:
The pins on Coffin Roof are there out of laziness. There is excellent gear, but who among us is going to haul a hammer up there to clean some manky pins which are pretty welded?

Don't be surprised. Last summer someone also bashed the fixed pins out of pentapitch. One was unneccesary but had been there forever and was in the guidebook. The other one protected the first move off of the last pitch. I was glad to see it. Not so glad when I saw the guy behind us bashing it out with a hammer. He said it wasn't safe. I say the thing had been there for 20 years so leave it alone.


timpanogos


Apr 6, 2004, 1:34 PM
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I'm a dumb guy,

I bought pins, then went projecting in prep for elcap.

might has well have

gone projecting, gathered pins in prep for elcap!

If for no other reason, soft pin replacements would discourage this aspect in the future


brianinslc


Apr 6, 2004, 1:45 PM
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In reply to:
Don't be surprised. Last summer someone also bashed the fixed pins out of pentapitch. One was unneccesary but had been there forever and was in the guidebook. The other one protected the first move off of the last pitch. I was glad to see it. Not so glad when I saw the guy behind us bashing it out with a hammer. He said it wasn't safe. I say the thing had been there for 20 years so leave it alone.

I know who nabbed that pin, bugger beat me to it.

Wasn't there for 20 years, to be sure. Wasn't there in '85. Folks used to sling the tree (which is now just a nub) then climb back right, then up and into the crack.

Pin wasn't needed or wanted there. The pitch is very protectable without any unneeded extra iron. I've done it several times in the last season without that pin. Heck, if need be, you could practically TR that move by climbing up JG's new friction route above and slinging the first lead bolt or two.

Amazing that folks are still placing pins. On a trade route like Pentapitch, I wish they'd stop. Ain't a sports climb. That last pitch is a super good trad lead at the grade. Lets not bring it down.

Brian in SLC

edit to add pic of last pitch of pentapitch, with (hopefully see-able) three bolt chained belay in view in the center, and the non pin placement just out of view to the center left...

http://mtncommunity.org/...40731a393d9b72b2.jpg

First pitch:

http://mtncommunity.org/...3f95a3996e2c4881.jpg


bsmoot


Apr 6, 2004, 11:42 PM
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The Schoolroom roof would have been freed years ago by Merril or Steve Hong if it was doable. The crack is too thin, I doubt it will even go clean. With all of the great roof problems that have been freed in the Wasatch, why would any one want to mess with something dangerous like the Schoolroom Roof?

When I started climbing on the granite in the mid 70's most of us did the Roof, I think including Ted Wilson. It was and STILL IS a classic aid climb. It was a famous spot for pictures. Since there aren't that many aid climbs around it would be nice to see this climb left as it is....have the roof fixed again with pins. Repeated nailing will only make the crack worse. If you're into pushing the clean aid, just go to Zion, you'll do more good there!

It's an unfortunant trend to see some young climbers disregarding history. Too bad more climbers aren't like Timpanogos. This guy respects the past and the climbing community by asking around first....Chad you're the Man!


timpanogos


Apr 7, 2004, 7:27 AM
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Well, here's what the grape-vine says:

The guys that pulled those pins definitely were Andrew Christensen and a guy named Matt aka "cowboy", I believe from Washington.

They were both in LCC that day and had a new hammer.

Apparently they are gathering gear for an upcoming el-cap trip.

Chad

P.S. Andrew is from Provo


brianinslc


Apr 7, 2004, 7:33 AM
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In reply to:
Well, here's what the grape-vine says:

The guys that pulled those pins definitely were Andrew Christensen and a guy named Matt aka "cowboy", I believe from Washington.

They were both in LCC that day and had a new hammer.

Apparently they are gathering gear for an upcoming el-cap trip.

Chad

Geez...and you could get old pins for a buck or two at the BD swap...

Weak. Sometimes that bad karma catches up with a person.

Brian in SLC


grayhghost


Apr 7, 2004, 10:55 AM
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I was one of the people who confronted these cheap wanks.
They said they were cleaning up the canyon and told me I could nail up the roof again if I believed it was right, so I asked them for the pins back and they said no. Now I understand they were just thieves out for the pins. The pins were almost brand new. I hope Andrew takes a whipper on his "new" pins and never walks again. Thieving _____ are taking from our community.


ammon


Apr 7, 2004, 11:59 AM
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(To the people who are wondering "what is the big deal?")

The big deal is the pins should have been left in place for future climbers to use and enjoy. I remember climbing this roof in "94" before I ever went to Yosemite. I didn't own a hammer or pins at the time, so without them being fixed I probably wouldn't have climbed it. I remember thinking it was great practice for some of the climbing I wanted to do in the Valley.

BTW- I think there is a HUGE difference between pins and bolts. Yes pins will damage the rock in repeated placements. BUT, like a lot of these people already said. "That's why they were fixed".

Andrew and Cowboy: You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. If you needed pins that bad you should have asked me. I would have hooked you up with a handful.... or let you borrow my entire pin rack if need be.

WHAT YOU DID WAS VERY SELFISH!!

It would be sad to see this become a trend!!!

Cheers, Ammon


galf


Apr 7, 2004, 4:17 PM
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In reply to:
I hope Andrew takes a whipper on his "new" pins and never walks again.
:shock:
If you really mean it, then you're a moron.


boltchopper


Apr 7, 2004, 5:38 PM
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You guys don't have any idea who you are talking about do you? Andrew the bolt chopper is a hard, hard son of a b . When ya'll climb Sea of Dreams, free the Moonlight, onsight 5.13 in the creek, free solo WI6, or onsight M10 like Andrew, you can come spraying about pins and bolts and ethics. Untill then, you are fools. Don't believe the hype- climbing is anarchy.


timpanogos


Apr 7, 2004, 5:56 PM
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In reply to:
You guys don't have any idea who you are talking about do you? Andrew the bolt chopper is a hard, hard son of a b . When ya'll climb Sea of Dreams, free the Moonlight, onsight 5.13 in the creek, free solo WI6, or onsight M10 like Andrew, you can come spraying about pins and bolts and ethics. Untill then, you are fools. Don't believe the hype- climbing is anarchy.

I’ve heard he climbs hard – so what? I’ve also heard he is very unstable individual and has caused grief before in the climbing community – building a great reputation for himself in a small world. Yea I think we are getting a pretty good feel for who we are talking about.

This from the list of posts by boltchopper
In reply to:
I am Andrew, the bolt chopper.

So that is all you have to say to justify steeling the pins – you are a godly climber and climbing is anarchy?

I hope Karma is kinder to you than others have proposed. I really do.


mikeasca


Apr 7, 2004, 5:59 PM
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WTFO-Do a search for bolt chopper by post. It will say it all.


over_the_hill


Apr 7, 2004, 7:07 PM
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Here is a link to what is being written on another site: http://www.utahclimbers.com/.../viewtopic.php?t=748

It just sounds as if this person has no regard for climbing other his his own selfish reasons. I am sure he would have no problem taking those pins and placing them in the green adjective crack just to further his own selfish desires.
Andrew, I wish you good luck on your trip to Yosemite. I am sure that before you do any hard lines in the valley, you will rap down the nose and steal all the gear you need for your other climbs. Since you like to quote from music, here is a relevant quote for you: "What goes around, comes back stronger!" (skinny puppy). Hey, why don't you go and take all the bolts/ hangers off the "S" direct too! that gear may come in handy too somewhere.........


rockprodigy


Apr 7, 2004, 8:40 PM
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In reply to:
You guys don't have any idea who you are talking about do you? Andrew the bolt chopper is a hard, hard son of a b . When ya'll climb Sea of Dreams, free the Moonlight, onsight 5.13 in the creek, free solo WI6, or onsight M10 like Andrew, you can come spraying about pins and bolts and ethics. Untill then, you are fools. Don't believe the hype- climbing is anarchy.

This is a family site...jerk off in private if you love yourself so much...isn't that an arrestable offense down there in the UC?

Since you apparently base your self worth on your past glories rather than current actions, let's get more specific

Which 5.13 in the creek?

Which WI6? ...and was it in WI6 condition? (aren't they all solos?)

What M10? I'm guessing one of those inflated chosspiles in Provo or Santaquin? Some mixed climbing newb told me Baghdad was M9!

I can spray like that too if I keep it general enough:

I've onsighted 5.13 in the City, I've soloed WI6, and I've onsighted M8+!

(the .13 at the city, I only onsighted the crux, and I downrated it to 12c..., the WI6, I only soled the first pitch WI4, and the M8+ was on TR)

See how that works.

Now, I have freed the Moonlight, so I am approved to tell you that stealing fixed gear from a beginners route is pretty weak-dick.

That's some arrogance to decide you need those pins more than anyone else. To sit there and claim you're doing it for some ethical reason is pretty sad, I mean surely someone who solos WI6 (yeah right) has the balls to tell people you're just fattening your rack. You have to lie because you're scared you'd get yelled at by a 5.8 climber? You're actions show you are a coward regardless of whatever your mouth sprays.

Let's talk about what really matters. What FA's have you done?


timpanogos


Apr 7, 2004, 9:23 PM
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In reply to:
Let's talk about what really matters. What FA's have you done?

Sorry Mike, I think he is better known for the FA’s he has raped

Ask him about his Rock Canyon exploits


bsmoot


Apr 7, 2004, 10:32 PM
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Andrew,

Why don't you show that you're a REAL man and go up and pound those pins back into the roof, then you won't be thought of as the "sissie" that you are.


brianinslc


Apr 8, 2004, 8:30 AM
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In reply to:
You guys don't have any idea who you are talking about do you? Andrew the bolt chopper is a hard, hard son of a b . When ya'll climb Sea of Dreams, free the Moonlight, onsight 5.13 in the creek, free solo WI6, or onsight M10 like Andrew, you can come spraying about pins and bolts and ethics. Untill then, you are fools. Don't believe the hype- climbing is anarchy.

Yeah, takes one bad ass dude to steal pins on rappel...

There's a measure of civility in climbing, anarchy or no. What goes 'round comes 'round.

And...I don't let weenies with an over inflated sense of their self worth define my ethics.

Brian in SLC


grayhghost


Apr 8, 2004, 9:25 AM
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wow Andrew, that is quite the impressive tick list, and we all know that the grades are what really counts when it comes to climbing.
The beauty of the situation is that Andrew pulled the pins while DOWN-AIDING. He did not repeat the route on lead, most likely because of the nasty fall potential messing up his golden pony-tail.
You will be found out. :wink:


paintrain


Apr 8, 2004, 9:58 AM
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I think if he is the bad ass as he claims in electronic spray world, he should at least try to do it clean if not free.

The simple act of stealing them because you are too much of a cheap ass is pretty bad - I don't care if you are the dali lama, buddha, mohammid or JC. To qualify it as an act of cleaning up and justify it by claiming you are tough guy is just assinine.

Hell, if he is so good, I would guess sponsors would be throwing racks at him.

"Climbing is anarchy" that makes me laugh. It is anything but.

pt


ammon


Apr 12, 2004, 1:37 PM
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In reply to:
Don't believe the hype- climbing is anarchy.

WHAAAAATT??

Is that why I was missing gear after we climbed El Cap together?


grayhghost


Apr 13, 2004, 9:51 AM
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whoa! this is a revelation. Ammon, do you know this Andrew?


ammon


Apr 13, 2004, 10:49 AM
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Yes. I know Andrew. Very solid climber and all around good guy (I thought). I think when I met him he was around 18.... mature, but had some growing up to do.

I was asking a serious question though, since he seperated the rack without me and I had trouble getting some of my gear back. Some of it never turned up at all.

So, I was just wondering if his anarchy statement had something to do with all that confusion I had when it was time for him to leave the Valley.

Just makes me wonder........


funk29


Apr 13, 2004, 11:18 AM
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Andrew is a sick climber!
I funk 99% of the pins I place or see.
I am not an SLC local.
I find this form interesting
Andrew is an SLC local..
Many of you are.


ammon


Apr 13, 2004, 12:01 PM
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In reply to:
I funk 99% of the pins I place.

I agree. BUT, that is the point.... he did not place them himself.

One of my favorite quotes from an old time Yosemite climber is:

"There is no such thing is a fixed pin... there's a pin in the wall, and then one on my rack"

Of course this logic doesn't apply to ALL climbs. You have to use some common sense.

In reply to:
Andrew is a sick climber!

Well, I hope he gets better.... or are you saying what he DOES while climbing is sickening?

Like I said, I know Andrew and consider him a friend. But, I don't agree with what he's doing and think it sets a bad example for future climbers. That's all.

Cheers


funk29


Apr 13, 2004, 12:03 PM
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Right.
Thats where it gets sticky...


funk29


Apr 13, 2004, 12:08 PM
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please pass the whiskey.


grayhghost


Apr 13, 2004, 12:18 PM
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ah. I believe Funk29 was the belayer for Andrew when he was stealing the pins out of schoolroom roof.


funk29


Apr 13, 2004, 12:21 PM
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It looks like we should prosecute.
Quick someone call a detective.


grayhghost


Apr 13, 2004, 12:41 PM
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no need.


ammon


Apr 13, 2004, 8:03 PM
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It was wrong for me to insinuate that Andrew stole any gear from me. Truth is, we were in a serious storm together and were the only party that didn't either bail or get plucked off (We were three pitches from the top). So, anything could have happened to that gear.

Anyway, I just wanted to clear that up. I think I let his 'tude get the best of me. Kinda funny this would happen looking back at when I was fourteen sporting a leather jacket with a huge anarchy sign on it.

So, Andrew PM'd me and said the pins he pulled were in pretty bad shape and some were rusted almost through to the eye. He claims that it will go clean at C1 or C2. Whatever!

Has anybody been up there yet?

Cheers


timpanogos


Apr 13, 2004, 8:27 PM
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I don't personally know Andrew - but I've been told by some that do -

"watch your stuff if he's around"


jwiggins


Apr 26, 2004, 7:04 AM
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are andrew and mike the same crew that chopped several bolted routes in rock canyon?

can someone post a picture of these guys?


jwiggins


Apr 26, 2004, 7:05 AM
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are andrew and mike the same crew that chopped several bolted routes in rock canyon?

can someone post a picture of these guys?


grayhghost


Apr 26, 2004, 7:49 AM
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I don't know for certain but a previous post suggested that these two were the same people who chopped bolts in rock canyon. You might try to get some input from the Provo crew (i am in SLC proper) Andrew is tall and skinny with a long, blond pony tail. Happy hunting.


mikeasca


Apr 26, 2004, 3:20 PM
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I think you mean matt not mike he goes by funk29. Check out his profile.


funk29


Apr 27, 2004, 12:01 PM
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Schoolroom Pin Puller, uses pins to put up FA in Kolob/ZNP!!!
This just in the notorious Schoolroom pin puller, Bolt Chopper/ Andrew Christensen used the three and a half stolen pins to put up a grade VI, FA in Kolob Canyon/Zion National Park. Last weekend the maverick climber Andrew Christensen and the mysterious big wall legend “Shaggy” put up a nine pitch 400-meter route on the North Face Wall of Kolobs, South Fork of Tayor Creek. Their Route “Stolen Pins VI 5.10 A4 D + r/x PDW(pretty damn western)” is directly across from the southern facing Lowe-Wilford project (see note below). It starts of mellow with an 80ft overhanging 5.10 hand crack what was originally a free climb called “Grandpa Stadg.” From the route follows a 60 meter pitch thin that contains 30m of camming beaks on an angled crack. Because these pin pullers apparently only had a rack of a set of nuts, 9 “Bootied cams”, The Three and a half Schoolroom pins (TTSP) and , six beaks that were also reportedly stolen off of a “serious nailing pitch somewhere on the Titians, Finger of Fate route. Because Andrew only has a small rack, (all of which is stolen except for the set of nuts that he didn’t purchase from REI) there are several of the 60m pitches that required leapfrogging of pins. Caution would be climber’s belays are reportedly suspect because of the large amounts of spinners as well as obnoxious accessories bolted to the wall. Like a soupspoon at the belay, a kitchen cabinet knob on one of the rivet sections, and at least one crushed Mt. Dew can used at a washer at each belay.
This route is with out a doubt the hardest techo aid route in any of the Kolob Canyons and receives the Jim Beyer rating of A4 D +r/x. Andrew is quoted at saying;
I was really inspired by talking with Beyer after he got off of Martyrs Brigade (a new route on El Cap.) I really wanted to duplicate a route with a pitch similar to his ‘8ft duct taped to ice axe hook move off a loose block...but I didn’t bring my ax so I had to lasso a small bush instead… with my cordelette and the TTSP’s tied on for weight to toss the line…I was already 40 feet into the A4 D section, looking now at a 75 foot ledge fall for sure, so obviously, it was not as hard as Martyrs Brigade, and besides, my biceps aren’t as big as Jims anyway.”

“I was really scared on that pitch dude, Like, I almost messed up my golden ponytail man… that’s not cool..I’d lose my sponsers for sure”

Notes:
I: The National Chapter of Crack Bolting Gumbies (NCCBG) is currently proposing an effort to retro bolt this danger to the climbing community. The president Godd Harding
“I think it is evil to use crushed Mt. Dew cans instead of washers while placing a Rawl 5 piece.”
One cedar local was overheard talking about the ascent-
“that dude [Andrew] is so sick.. I’m gonna start stealing pins so I can climb hard just like him—I heard that there are at least 4 left in the schoolroom roof…”

II: Some one currently has been sieging this prized project into submission over the last 6 moths. There are currently ropes fixed 4/5th of the way up this route. These ropes will hopefully be chopped soon.
P.S. There are no fixed pins on this route.


bandycoot


Apr 27, 2004, 12:24 PM
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Do you write for The Onion?

www.theonion.com


ammon


Apr 27, 2004, 1:09 PM
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In reply to:
Caution would be climber’s belays are reportedly suspect because of the large amounts of spinners as well as obnoxious accessories bolted to the wall. Like a soupspoon at the belay, a kitchen cabinet knob on one of the rivet sections, and at least one crushed Mt. Dew can used at a washer at each belay.

I don't GET it. Andrew claimed to have been "cleaning up garbage" from Schoolroom Roof..... that was HIS argument. Weak as it was.......

This must be a troll, then again....... some people will do ANYTHING for attention.


evilshaggy


May 17, 2004, 3:27 PM
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Ya'll Gotts ta be carful with dis Split, Homeboy carries a Glock at all times he's LOCO. And besides he's right climbing is 100% Anarchy. Ethics aren't laws, don't make them so. Any person has a right to place a bolt or pin anywhere they want, and any person has a right to remove that bolt or pin. Ask Royal, Ask Warren, Ask Yvon, and Tom. These are our forefathers. Ask them I have.


billcoe_


Mar 16, 2007, 10:35 AM
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[quote "ammon"](To the people who are wondering "what is the big deal?")

The big deal is the pins should have been left in place for future climbers to use and enjoy. I remember climbing this roof in "94" before I ever went to Yosemite. I didn't own a hammer or pins at the time, so without them being fixed I probably wouldn't have climbed it. I remember thinking it was great practice for some of the climbing I wanted to do in the Valley.

BTW- I think there is a HUGE difference between pins and bolts. Yes pins will damage the rock in repeated placements. BUT, like a lot of these people already said. "That's why they were fixed".

Andrew and Cowboy: You guys should be ashamed of yourselves. If you needed pins that bad you should have asked me. I would have hooked you up with a handful.... or let you borrow my entire pin rack if need be.

WHAT YOU DID WAS VERY SELFISH!!

It would be sad to see this become a trend!!!

Cheers, Ammon[/quote]

Did any of you ever confront these lowlife thieves?


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