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brianinslc
Apr 5, 2004, 7:18 PM
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In reply to: What's it matter? Just because the guidebook says it is fixed? It is an short aid line up off the ground a handful of pitches. Learn to pound iron. It might get done more often. Otherwise, forget the pins and put in a bolt ladder if all we want to discuss is safety aspect. I don't really see the problem other than they are a rusty piece of history.
I think the fixed pins were a nice solution to a neat A1/A0 route that used to be (and still somewhat is) a fairly popular aid route. I don't think any of the pins were original and those in situ looked bomber. I believe they were all pretty new LA's (new being in the last 10 years or so).
Shame that somebody ripped off this gear from the climbing community.
Weaker yet, is that they did it on rappel. If you're going to whack out fixed pins under the premise that they shouldn't be there, then do it on point, or just leave them alone.
Havin' fixed pins on the route kept additional scarring of the rock to a minimum. Was also great aid practise for folks who didn't own any of that type of gear (pins/hammer).
Schoolroom Roof is a classic old route. Maybe someday it'll go free. But, until then, its got neat position and used to have nice fixed pro. Bummer.
Shoulda been left alone. I hope these folks don't go around stealing all the other fixed anchors in the canyon too.
Bad karma to those folk.
Brian in SLC
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paintrain
Apr 5, 2004, 7:38 PM
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Fixed anchors ala belay stations, I agree. "Fixed" pins noted in a guidebook are ephemeral by their very nature and just shouldn't be trusted as a rule of thumb.
It was dickish of the guy to remove them just to pluck gear no argument there. I really doubt he was acting in any altruistic manner as he might of suggested, but then again, maybe he thinks he was doing the right thing. Hard to read the minds of hair farmers with all that stuff blocking the signal... :lol:
Safety wise though, I don't know. Yeah, neat location, but most people just play through. Yeah, beginner aid line (but you are just clipping a line of pins). There are better options that can teach alot more about aiding through easy roofs (coffin) that would be safer. Got to maple if you want to clip a line through a steep roof. I am not sure how often it gets done, but in 10 years I have seen one person on it and can remember one other guy mentioning he had actually done it.
That is why I kind of argue "are we offended at them being gone" because 1. we were going up there a couple times a year cause it is such a good route to do and we do it, 2. that he was just being dirtbag for taking them, or 3. is it that we are just used to the fact that they are always there when we play through and like the historical gear?
Succesfull yesterday? BTW
PT
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timpanogos
Apr 5, 2004, 9:03 PM
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In reply to: That is why I kind of argue "are we offended at them being gone" because 1. we were going up there a couple times a year cause it is such a good route to do and we do it, 2. that he was just being dirtbag for taking them, or 3. is it that we are just used to the fact that they are always there when we play through and like the historical gear?
You are right, pins now gone, that part of the argument is water under the bridge.
That roof was/is on my tick list.
So, now what are the ethics of the next ascension? Is this just a free for all? I’m climbing c2, I’ll give it a go, when I get scared, I’ll nail it. Heck I’m looking for nailing practice anyway. I’m a cheap bugger, I’ll clean my pins when I’m done.
I wonder, 10 years from now, as the heavy traffic that does go under that roof looks up and sees a beat out crack like Black Peeler Direct – they will at least be able to say – dang – nice to see those damn rusty pins gone!
It seems the opportunity might be here to now try and setup a c2/3F roof that might provide a cool challenge for current and future aiders as well as preserve the crack.
So what is it – am I free to do as I please with this crack now?
edit add i.e.
In reply to: Happy evolution,
Chad
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scottcody
Apr 5, 2004, 10:17 PM
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Need a belay?
Dam I live in texas, I'd be there in a heart beat if it were less than a 12hr drive.
Good luck atg.
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mdhf
Apr 5, 2004, 10:45 PM
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I was up there too on Saturday with them banging away. The numbskulls looked like they just bought a new hammer and wanted to figure out how to use it. If you fell from that roof it'd hurt. :oops: I should've said something then, but didn't because I figured that they were trying to aid the route, not repair it.
REI and IME should only sell bolting/aid equiptment after you pass a not-a-dumbf*ck test. Good luck to you guys who want to replace it. Schoolroom's fun and a great intro to about everything in climbing (cracks, face, runouts, multiple pitches, traverses, and searching for a way down). Some easy aid made it even better. Hence schoolroom?
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caughtinside
Apr 5, 2004, 10:48 PM
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In reply to: REI and IME should only sell bolting/aid equiptment after you pass a not-a-dumbf*ck test.
Man, like, you're such an authoritarian with yer rules and restrictions. :lol:
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paintrain
Apr 5, 2004, 10:52 PM
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That is a fine question.
I don't really have an answer. I have a suggestion, though - :twisted:
Those with the guns, give it a shot at freeing it. Those with the tech guns, give it a shot at doing it "C". It is tough because of the consequences of ripping gear on that one (could be an amalgum when factoring safety concerns - but it is an opportunity to find out).
Brian and I discussed offline it being a cool opportunity to do it like the FA, but now that you mention it, it would be a cool opportunity to up the ante with modern style. Just don't get hurt, cause it might be more like A4 with consequences factored.
An opportunity lost to beginners at this point, but one gained to those of greater skill and experience unless it gets filled with pins again.
PT
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timpanogos
Apr 5, 2004, 11:35 PM
Post #33 of 88
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In reply to: Those with the guns, give it a shot at freeing it.
In reply to: Those with the tech guns, give it a shot at doing it "C".
I would sure like to go and watch and learn on this one – please invite me.
Chad
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bigwalling
Apr 5, 2004, 11:37 PM
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Shit, you mean to say it's not a clip up anymore? Sounds like a real route now.
How the fuck does the pins missing make it any harder!?!? If it hasn't gone free, I don't know what you guys are bitching about.
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paintrain
Apr 6, 2004, 12:46 AM
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bigwailling, bigwailing, bigwhaling or whatever,
It probably wouldn't interest you as it is only a grade I/II and with a name like that, your haulbag would be way too light.
"How the f--- does the pins missing make it any harder!?!?"
Clipping a fixed piece vs placing it yourself. Pins in vs no pins. Swing hammer and carry iron vs neither. Come on - no brainer even for a suffermaster like yourself, but like I said your haulbag would be way too light and you wouldn't get to wrestle with all that gear.
What are we talking about - 40 total feet of glory risking a deck on a slab to get your name in the guidebook with 5.xx or Cx in there. What else is there? Suffering for days on a wall? Why when you can be down by dinner?
"I don't know what you guys are b---- about." - Yup. Just chewin it over a little local piece of rock. That is why I am giving you a hard time.
Thanks for all the interesting feedback.
PT
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paintrain
Apr 6, 2004, 12:49 AM
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There are many able bodies in the valley for free climbing exploits. It might be bit hairball depending on the quality of the gear though.
I would hope it stays clean for a little while so folks can give it a try. Spread the word, see if anyone gives it a run clean aid or free.
I am no gun, but I am suddenly interested in the prospect of looking at it now.
PT
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bigwalling
Apr 6, 2004, 1:27 AM
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The name is kinda messed. It should be more like aiderkid or something. In fact I boulder more than anything. So I'm more of a pussy in the wall aspect.
Clipping fixed pins might make it physically easier but not rating wise. In fact your own pins will be more trustworthy. So now it is acctully easier.
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timpanogos
Apr 6, 2004, 1:40 AM
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I dropped the word at the Quarry (Left a message for Jeff) as well as talking to Christian at Mountain Works (he seemed real interested (both of these for the free aspect).
Scott was working IME today - did not seem to care - I'll see if Meril is working tomorrow and let him know
I'll update with whatever i hear about any free attempts - others please do like wise
Any wave twos (clean aid attempts) let me know (I'd love to watch)
I guess if things are quite on this for a few weeks
the gumby wave can start.
Chad
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galf
Apr 6, 2004, 1:53 AM
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Paintrain, I totally agree with you.
It's time your route evolved!
And I still believe clipping fixed pins is less of a schoolroom experience than pounding and cleaning them yourself.
Galf.
BTW, I'm quite interested in this topic since we have this kind of debate in our area
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rockprodigy
Apr 6, 2004, 2:08 AM
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Careful what you ask for....
That thing will not be freed without bolts, so now that you have invited a bunch of sport climbers up there, don't get pissed when it gets bolted.
PS, Scott's fingers are way to fat for the roof...my money would be on Merrill, if he cares...and what do you mean he's "working" Moonlight? He should flash that thing!
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timpanogos
Apr 6, 2004, 2:26 AM
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well he did not flash it, He was down there week before last I think - working on it - he said he was close to going for the redpoint - last I talked to him - waiting for the heat wave of last to pass and hoping for a cool run before the fry starts
and if it was bolted for free - if they would work with the aiders to place the bolts in a configuration that might support both cxf and free - well maybe thats a good thing?
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jwiggins
Apr 6, 2004, 3:43 AM
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nice to hear your comments brian.
For anyone who is interested...
Dave Smith Wasatch Granite guide says the following about the Schoolroom roof:
"Nail the thin horizontal crack splitting the large roof. six to eight thin to medium horizontals plus a couple of knifeblades will be needed."
He rates the route F5 A2. The book I have was published in 1977. Dave works at REI. I will ask him about FA info next time I am in there.
The Ruckman's guide lists it as A1 -all fixed pins. Some time between 1977 and -hell i gave away my first edition of Wasatch North so I am not sure when the newest description hit print -now the pins were left in place.
There are others living in Utah that have done homework or were there. Jeff Lowe? Ted Wilson? The Ruckmans? Tony Calderone? How about Scott at IME?
If anyone is interested in learning about this route I would be happy to track down the info. Just post a reply and I will fill in as much as I can or ask sources to post info.
Unfortunately it is all I can do right now to contribute on this.
Can the route still be freed with fixed pins?
Don't want to be involved in any arguments -no fun and couter productive. I appologize if any of my first comments went in that direction. I get a little bumbed out when I hear about fixed pro being removed without consulting at least someone in the community. Anyone hear about Rock Canyon last year?
Send me a reply if you are interested in the info. If I get time and no one else has fixed it, I will go check out the damage and do what I can. BTW Dave Smith's guide refers to Schoolroom as "The Climber's Schoolroom". Just a little trivia Normy :wink:
Jason
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paintrain
Apr 6, 2004, 4:52 AM
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It might take a girl - little fingers. Or a dude with "cabage hands" as my friends say.
Carson is definitely DQ'ed due to physical "shortcomings".
You might be right about freeing with bolts only, but it might go with clean aid if someone skinny got on it.
So, It might take a girl (or leo holding - cause he is pretty).
PT
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paintrain
Apr 6, 2004, 5:00 AM
Post #44 of 88
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Wait wait wait.
After all this discussion I think it would be prudent to let some of the new school aid persons check it out. Lets not get too eager to bolt it just cause its there.
You quoted youself, "Nail the thin horizontal crack splitting the large roof. six to eight thin to medium horizontals plus a couple of knifeblades will be needed." was its original description. Plus it is more "schooling" to do it clean or nailing than a blind clip up on fixed gear anyhow.
Give it the summer I say and let some folks have some fun to see what can be done without all that old FE in the way. I am sure if it is really spicy, people will drop a pin or two in so they don't deck. Bring it up again after that an see if everyone thinks it should be nailed back up.
If no one has any real comments then, I stand by my assertion that it is just because you are used to seeing the pins there and not because you are up climbing it a couple times a year.
PT
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brianinslc
Apr 6, 2004, 2:22 PM
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In reply to: After all this discussion I think it would be prudent to let some of the new school aid persons check it out. Lets not get too eager to bolt it just cause its there. You quoted youself, "Nail the thin horizontal crack splitting the large roof. six to eight thin to medium horizontals plus a couple of knifeblades will be needed." was its original description. Plus it is more "schooling" to do it clean or nailing than a blind clip up on fixed gear anyhow.
Hey, where's bsmoot on this? His guidebook says, "the most popular aid lead on the granite" and there's a nice photo by Barstow of a feller on it as well.
Turville's (and Green's) "Desperate Grace" really doesn't have much of a description. It does say, however, "the rock, like the best of women, can only take the occasional pounding".
I'll bet it'd go clean. For someone willing to hand place pins. Its a horizontal crack. Anyone have some Wild Country zero cams they'd be willing to trash? Ha ha.
Come on, rockprodigy, you should free it. You have the best shot of anyone I know. Maybe some whack stemming. Paintrain, after some all male nude yoga, might be able to show you a move or two. Ha ha.
I'd hate (hate) to see it sprout bolts.
I'd think the fixed pins were a consensus reached by a number of the old guard. M Bitter might know. bsmoot too. Its a different situation than, say, "Stem the Tide" which used to be protected by a fixed pin and is now a bolt (ie, free climb versus A1 aid route).
"Yeehaa. All fixed pins" was in Wasatch North as well as the current guidebook, btw. And...it gets two stars on a scale of none to three.
Brian in SLC
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rockprodigy
Apr 6, 2004, 2:53 PM
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I'm gonna hike up there and look at it this afternoon...see if it's worth roping up for.
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jwiggins
Apr 6, 2004, 6:00 PM
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not bolt -never said and would never do. read all before reply.
at somepoint someone decided to leave fixed pins likely for rock preservation. In the past (and present) there was an effort in LCC to go clean everywhere possible and to fix pins in cracks when not. Then only bolt in the absense of placements for crack placed pro. As i understand it now and then the goal is to not leave ugly pin scars.
The coffin roof still has fixed pins and has seen at least one free ascent in the past year. if free is the goal and micros lowe balls, zeros, or any other thin fear pro cannot be used then it makes sense for this area to replace what was taken out. no bolts are necessary. I do not recall seeing the type of drainage that would prematurely weaken pins from corrosion or stress corrosion cracking. the old ones were there a long time so replacements are a logical choice unless the guys bunged up the rock terribly while removing the old.
again knock yourself out on this and by all means have fun. I do not get up to school room often and have goals in other places -also in need of anchor repair, trash clean up etc. If I see it with no pins in the fall and have time I will pop in at IME discuss replacement of pins then do it if it makes sense. Log your free or CX ascent at IME if you could please.
Opinion-evolution should be measured and balanced with preservation. I am not a big fan of replying a bunch of times to stuff but this one hits close to home. I am not likely as much of a stud as the majority of people replying to this but have spent 14 years climging in and around the Wasatch and love it! I bring my kids up LCC to scramble and climb so I have some mind for future generations of climbers. That's just me and I know there are a variety of opions and values out there that are different and i am not trying to pass my own to everyone else. just hope that this kind of stuff happens infrequently.
Have fun!
out here.
J
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rockprodigy
Apr 6, 2004, 7:17 PM
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Actually, it has become fairly common in the last few years to replace fixed pins with bolts in LCC. I don't see the difference between clipping a pin and clipping a bolt, but there is a huge difference to the free climber if the pin is plugging a potential hold. Personally, I probably wouldn't bolt it, but don't be surprized if someone else does.
The pins on Coffin Roof are there out of laziness. There is excellent gear, but who among us is going to haul a hammer up there to clean some manky pins which are pretty welded?
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trbrts
Apr 6, 2004, 8:05 PM
Post #49 of 88
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In reply to: The pins on Coffin Roof are there out of laziness. There is excellent gear, but who among us is going to haul a hammer up there to clean some manky pins which are pretty welded?
Don't be surprised. Last summer someone also bashed the fixed pins out of pentapitch. One was unneccesary but had been there forever and was in the guidebook. The other one protected the first move off of the last pitch. I was glad to see it. Not so glad when I saw the guy behind us bashing it out with a hammer. He said it wasn't safe. I say the thing had been there for 20 years so leave it alone.
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timpanogos
Apr 6, 2004, 8:34 PM
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I'm a dumb guy,
I bought pins, then went projecting in prep for elcap.
might has well have
gone projecting, gathered pins in prep for elcap!
If for no other reason, soft pin replacements would discourage this aspect in the future
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