|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Apr 23, 2004, 11:19 PM
Post #1 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
:roll: What is the Big deal with bounce testing? I just read a tech tip in Climbing mag preaching the greatness of bounce testing and I have been stuck behind stunningly slow parties who bounce test every freaking piece? WTF :roll: By the time you get into doing walls you should know what will hold and what won't. Even if it is a scetch piece, What is your alternitive? You place the best piece that the rock will allow and move up on it. If it is total mank you have the choice of bailing or keep going on the mank. (rember you have allready placed the best piece that is available) I have said this before and I will say it again. BOUNCE TESTING CAN RUIN A PERFECTLY GOOD SCETCH HOOK PLACEMENT :shock: I will yank on stuff or funkness it if it seems really important but if your going clean you got no hammer to funkness. yank it to set it and then climb while we are still freaking young 8^)
|
|
|
|
|
mesomorf
Apr 23, 2004, 11:27 PM
Post #2 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 3, 2002
Posts: 397
|
In reply to: yank it to set it and then climb while we are still freaking young 8^) |
|
|
|
|
galf
Apr 23, 2004, 11:28 PM
Post #3 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 230
|
BOOOOOOOORING!
Somebody lock this thread before too many people figure out it's a troll!!!!!!!!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
bandycoot
Apr 23, 2004, 11:28 PM
Post #4 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 25, 2002
Posts: 2028
|
:lol: :lol: :lol:
I can just picture it, some gumbie aiding a C1 2" crack bounce testing a #2 camalot in a perfect placement while you're looking up with a scowl on your face, looking at the sun setting, mumbling something about how long can it take to aid 2 pitches.....
I agree for the most part. Bounce test what is needed but not everything. On a typical "easy" aid route seems like you shouldn't even be testing 1/5 placements...
|
|
|
|
|
dangermouse
Apr 23, 2004, 11:30 PM
Post #5 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 28, 2003
Posts: 6
|
It's a good idea for people who haven't had much experience placing pieces. Though it shouldn't be done in the process of climbing a big wall. I haven't read the article in Climbing, but I can't imagine they recommend bounce testing every piece? I too haven't been very happy about the articles in Climbing lately. It seems people are taking these general rules/opinions and applying them to often.
|
|
|
|
|
maculated
Apr 23, 2004, 11:32 PM
Post #6 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 6179
|
maculated has locked this thread.
|
|
|
|
|
maculated
Apr 23, 2004, 11:33 PM
Post #7 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 6179
|
maculated has unlocked this thread.
|
|
|
|
|
maculated
Apr 23, 2004, 11:34 PM
Post #8 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 6179
|
:roll: Please return to your regularly scheduled programming.
|
|
|
|
|
maculated
Apr 23, 2004, 11:34 PM
Post #9 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 6179
|
maculated has locked this thread.
|
|
|
|
|
maculated
Apr 24, 2004, 7:15 AM
Post #10 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 6179
|
maculated has unlocked this thread.
|
|
|
|
|
epic_ed
Apr 24, 2004, 7:31 AM
Post #11 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 4724
|
So what's the hardest aid pitch you've done using that theory, Mr. Tradmanisgonnacrater?
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Apr 24, 2004, 1:29 PM
Post #12 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
Ok I was right into the whisky when i posted that rant :roll: I am not a master waller. I am self taught and the hardest wall i have done was C2. I have however done quite a bit of thin hooking/nailing etx while putting up new single pitch rt's. Granted much of the time I am aiding over bolts so the concequences of gear failure arn't all that bad. there have been pleanty of no fall scenarios over the years. Last summer for instance i hand drilled a bolt off of a #3 micro wire that was 15 ft over a #2 camalot in a rotten, dirty suspect slot which was in turn10 ft above a body weight blade wich was 10 ft over a good bolt' I barely got the bolt in and clipped when the micro wire blew sending me onto the bolt. Had the wire ripped before the bolt was in, the resulting 30 footer could have certainly ripped the suspect cam and sent me on a nasty 70 footer while i was only 60 ft off the deck. I fail to see how bounce testing that crappy wire would have helped me out? I knew it was crap but didn't see any alturnative. It was too steep to drill free so i had to hang on somthing and i couldn't find a decent hook. One of the Coldest days of my life was totaly wasted waiting for some tool to bounce test every piece on a C2 pitch. they were on the 4th pitch when we started and still on the 4th pitch for 3hrs after we caught them. My mistake was in not bailing imeadatly before I got cold as we had to bail anyway. I guess my point in all this aimless ramble is, when is bounce testing actualy productive?
|
|
|
|
|
adeptus
Apr 24, 2004, 1:56 PM
Post #13 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 17, 2002
Posts: 322
|
When doing A3 and up bounce testing is the only thing that makes it actual climbing and not just a suicide attempt. When every placement is questionable it's important to test if they will at least hold a one placement fall, so you don't zip the whole pitch, if the piece you're on pops.
|
|
|
|
|
esoteric1
Apr 24, 2004, 1:57 PM
Post #14 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 8, 2002
Posts: 705
|
once...when i was at band camp... :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Apr 24, 2004, 3:25 PM
Post #15 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
I can see how testing with a funkness works for hard aid but dont see how you can bounce test without risking takeing a fall on your last piece? Whats the difference between takeing a fall while stepping into you aiders or while bounce testing? You still put a pretty good shock on the piece that you are currently on. I have done 3 or more consecutive hook moves many, many times and also climbed a lot on beaks and blades. I have also zippered a fair bit of gear over the years. Bounce testing seems to be fine if you are on a bomber piece but seems pretty usless if you are allready on a body weight placement?
|
|
|
|
|
adeptus
Apr 24, 2004, 5:26 PM
Post #16 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 17, 2002
Posts: 322
|
The difference between taking a fall while stepping into you aiders and bounce testing is, that while testing you're connected to the top piece with your daisy, but standing in the lower steps of your aiders on the piece you're on. The most important thing is not to have a daisy attached to the piece you're on, so you don't load it statically. Instead you should clip the rope to the piece you're on, so you will get a dynamic catch if the piece you're testing pops. So by getting low in your aiders you're actually on top rope while testing the upper piece.
Well, I don't know if my explanation was good enough to understand, but the point is: Get well below the piece you're on and bounce test the top piece via the daisy. That way you won't load the piece you're on with more than 2 kN, which you have already tested it for. Of course if the placements are bomber just by looking at it, you shouldn't waste time on testing it, but on A3 and more those placements are really rare.
Hope this clears things a bit.
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Apr 24, 2004, 6:08 PM
Post #17 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
That is pretty much what I do when testing a suspect piece. i just don't do much bouncing when I have consecutive hook and beak placements. Its more like a really smooth weight it with the daisy and hope it dosen't pop causing me to crap myself of scate off the hook I am allready on. I dont bounce test at all if my experience tells me that the piece is solid. the guy who caused me so much agony on the prow was vigorsly bounce testing every piece on a pitch that has a lot of solid nut and alien placements in granit. I think the only reason the pitch get's a C2 rateing is because it goes through a reachy roof. The Tech tip in CLIMBING that set me off seemed to advocate bounce testing every placement. that method certainly will take forever to get up anythig.
|
|
|
|
|
brutusofwyde
Apr 25, 2004, 5:15 AM
Post #18 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 3, 2002
Posts: 1473
|
In reply to: The Tech tip in CLIMBING that set me off seemed to advocate bounce testing every placement. that method certainly will take forever to get up anythig.
Well, I can't comment directly on the Climbing tech tip, 'cause I haven't seen it.
I CAN say, however, that there was a certain pitch on El Cap rated A3+ that took me about 7 hours to lead. Most of the strings of placements were not the kind I would bounce test, rather I used the Funkness.
C2? Should take ya say 45 minutes at most.
I only bounce or Funk when I'm worried I'm gonna die.
C2 (in granite at least) should be pretty straightfoward.
Until you weigh as much as I do...
Brutus
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Apr 25, 2004, 10:41 AM
Post #19 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
8^) Exatly, that's what I'm saying.
|
|
|
|
|
hexitup
Apr 25, 2004, 8:45 PM
Post #20 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 16, 2003
Posts: 32
|
Ron Olevsky told me he doesn't (usually) bounce test....hah!
But he also doesn't use daisies.
|
|
|
|
|
rickoldskool
Apr 26, 2004, 6:24 AM
Post #21 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 25, 2002
Posts: 214
|
In reply to: I can see how testing with a funkness works for hard aid but dont see how you can bounce test without risking takeing a fall on your last piece?
Let me add to the reply by adeptus.
It's like this, are you sure you want to just step on up if you don't know that piece your on will catch a fall from the next piece?
The REASON you bounce test is exactly as was stated, you don't rip the whole fucking pitch. Bounce testing is your ONLY way of knowing that the piece is gonna hold if you pull that next piece! If you didn't bounce test it you may be a dead man.
And I'm talking here about aid harder than C1 or 2. There are times when a bounce test is good idea then also. Experience tells you when. You'll figure it out if you live long enough.
|
|
|
|
|
tedc
Apr 26, 2004, 4:23 PM
Post #22 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 5, 2003
Posts: 756
|
Bounce Testing Pointless...or...How to build a ticking time bomb on your next wall.
In reply to: ... Whats the difference between takeing a fall while stepping into you aiders or while bounce testing??...
If you don't know the answer to this question you are not ready for "moderate" aid.
from Bounce Testing 101: Harper and Collins:
"Testing ain't about the piece you are on. It's about the piece you were on." GET IT.
|
|
|
|
|
epic_ed
Apr 26, 2004, 4:55 PM
Post #23 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 4724
|
As one climber put it, do you want to build a line of question marks, or a line of exclaimation points?
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Apr 26, 2004, 5:46 PM
Post #24 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
Iwant to get up the pitch as quickly as possible without putting my belayer into a coma. I allso want to live through the experience. On C1 you shouldn't need to bounce test at all. Unless there is a nasty ledge any falls should be clean. You should also get many bomber pieces. on C2 I can see how sections may require some testing but certainly not every piece. All of the nailing i have done has been on new unrated rt's so i don't know how hard it was but I have done a fair bit of thin nailing and hooking. a funkness test is pretty quick but I still don't do it on every piece. My longest pitch was about 7 hrs and my belayer actually fell asleep. can't blame her as I was hooking, beaking and hand drilled 4 three inch deep bolts for a very long time. I don't think I would really like to do a full pitch of beaks and hooks without somthing on the pitch that would hold a real fall :shock:
|
|
|
|
|
edge
Apr 26, 2004, 5:50 PM
Post #25 of 38
(5754 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 14, 2003
Posts: 9120
|
For whatever it's worth the author of the climbing article, Mike Shore, just soloed Reality Check, a Cathedral Ledge, NH A4+ that maybe has seen 2 other complete ascents. He knows from whence he speaks...
|
|
|
|
|
mshore
Apr 26, 2004, 6:17 PM
Post #26 of 38
(4135 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 18, 2002
Posts: 114
|
7 hours for a lead tradman - what route were you on? Is the route east coast? Where at?
In reply to: Iwant to get up the pitch as quickly as possible without putting my belayer into a coma. My longest pitch was about 7 hrs and my belayer actually fell asleep.
Learn to solo dude!
Be careful when you get funky!
--------------------------------------
|
|
|
|
|
ammon
Apr 26, 2004, 6:59 PM
Post #27 of 38
(4135 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 27, 2004
Posts: 220
|
In reply to: BOUNCE TESTING CAN RUIN A PERFECTLY GOOD SCETCH HOOK PLACEMENT
On which routes? Maybe when putting up FA's.
You have some good points. I think you need to know WHEN to bounce test and when NOT to...... but, to make a statement that "Bounce Testing is Pointless". Well, that's straight-up WRONG.
In reply to: Iwant to get up the pitch as quickly as possible without putting my belayer into a coma.
You don't have to make a career out of it while bounce testing. Bounce and GO.
I have to disagree with you. I move a lot faster on the actual piece when I have tested it. Therefore, feeling more comfortable about getting higher more quickly on your steps.
Also, think of all the time wasted when you whip. Another good reason to make sure the gear is solid enough to hold you.
Just some of my thoughts.
Cheers, Ammon
|
|
|
|
|
lambone
Apr 26, 2004, 7:07 PM
Post #28 of 38
(4135 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 1, 2003
Posts: 1399
|
This topic was kinda funny/lame the in the first place, to see it being debated again truly defines PIONTLESS.
I'm pretty sure every aid climber with half a functional brain knows that in some cases it is critical to bounce test your pieces, and sometimes it a waste of time....sometimes you want to bounce them hard as you can, sometimes just a quick hop to set them into place. So, from what I gather the point of this thread is to bash on those who don't know the difference yet. Which reeeaaly is a totaly pointless endeavor.
In reply to: I don't think I would really like to do a full pitch of beaks and hooks without somthing on the pitch that would hold a real fall :shock:
Better stay of certain harder El Cap routes then...like The Sea, Straw, Native Son etc...where it sounds like you might be the type to place a "chicken bolt" in the middle of an extensive hooking section.
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Apr 28, 2004, 8:04 PM
Post #29 of 38
(4135 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
I was pretty well (pointlessly) pickeled in whisky when i started the post. as for the solo thing i have done that while putting up new rts. I do lack a decent self belay device so i tie off short which is a total pain in the butt. allmost all of my first accents are done with the intent of establishing a good free climb. I do try to make the climbs exciteing without being stupidly dangerous. i try to stay away from bolt ladders and take care to drill where it is going to make the most sense for free climbing. I try to make sure that there is a hold to clip from and that ground or ledge fall is avoided if at all possible. the hand drilling takes awhile from a bad hook or crap piece. I can drill a 3" hole in 17 min on rappel but it sometimes takes me an hour from a verry thin hook (especialy if the hook keeps shifting) so relieving my partner of this duty would be ideal. I do need her arround to do the freeclimbing once i get it drilled. Also sometimes i give her the sharp end for awhile if there is good gear . makes it more of a teamwork thing and gives me a break untill i have to go back up there and aid and drill again. I did put up an A2+ once with no cheater bolts. It didn't get freed for 11 years and hasen't been repeted as a free climb since. I guess I like the idea of useing the bolts so that the climbs actualy get climbed. I know i am not ready for a real wall that is harder than A2. Someday I hope 8^) I certainly don't like drilling enough to ever add a bolt to a climb. I dont bring the drill on established rt's unless I am replaceing bad belay bolts.
|
|
|
|
|
mshore
Apr 28, 2004, 8:24 PM
Post #30 of 38
(4135 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 18, 2002
Posts: 114
|
WOW LMAO Am I missing something or did we just get a pooptube of information that no one asked for?
keep up the good work.....
i will keep bounce testing.....
mike :P
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Apr 28, 2004, 8:54 PM
Post #31 of 38
(4135 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
Sorry that last post was so long and rambeling. I was trying to answer about the last 5 posts. Reasuring somone that I wouldn't go putting cheater bolts on lurking fear and trying to explain why a pitch took 7 hrs. Mike I belive you asked that question?
|
|
|
|
|
tradmanclimbs
Apr 28, 2004, 9:02 PM
Post #32 of 38
(4135 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599
|
I just re read my origional post and it is pretty obnoxious and full of s#it. Sometimes the whisky can do that to me. It did bring out a bunch of decent responses though so it wasen't a total waste.
|
|
|
|
|
cjcalls
Apr 28, 2004, 10:28 PM
Post #33 of 38
(4135 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 30, 2003
Posts: 247
|
I think this proves a good point.
Drinking and driving is very bad.
Drinking and speaking your mind is even worse.
I think some folks need one of those blow tube thingies on thier computer to measure if they are drunk before it will start up.
|
|
|
|
|
epic_ed
Apr 28, 2004, 11:33 PM
Post #34 of 38
(4135 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 17, 2002
Posts: 4724
|
No worries, Trad. It created some interesting debate. By and large, we all agree that if it's C1 or C2, get on the damn piece and boogie.
|
|
|
|
|
ricardol
Apr 30, 2004, 12:43 AM
Post #35 of 38
(4135 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1050
|
In reply to: No worries, Trad. It created some interesting debate. By and large, we all agree that if it's C1 or C2, get on the damn piece and boogie.
.. gotta love this website --
.. its all easy to say when we're sitting behind our computers .. in an air conditioned office ..
.. a totally different thing when you have 1000' off the deck .. nothing but air beneath you, the wind is whippnig your aiders all about .. you are soloing ..
.. not saying that you need to test everything .. its just that things are much different when its real ..
-- ricardo
|
|
|
|
|
ajizzl
May 1, 2004, 6:27 PM
Post #36 of 38
(4135 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2004
Posts: 1
|
Just got done bathing in whisky and taking shots from my p-tube.
|
|
|
|
|
mshore
May 3, 2004, 12:09 PM
Post #37 of 38
(4135 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 18, 2002
Posts: 114
|
:?
|
|
|
|
|
bigwalling
May 3, 2004, 2:07 PM
Post #38 of 38
(4135 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 29, 2001
Posts: 728
|
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
|
|
|
|
|
|
