|
chodeman
Apr 26, 2004, 3:37 AM
Post #1 of 81
(28275 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 24, 2004
Posts: 67
|
I just learned how to lead climb and when i took the class my instructor informed us of the possibility of a gri gri not catching a lead fall. He said there is the possibility of the rope just slipping right through and not locking down, actually he said he saw it happen in the gym once and the guy decked. SO i was curious as to how often you hear of this happening?
|
|
|
|
|
boltdude
Apr 26, 2004, 4:18 AM
Post #2 of 81
(28274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 30, 2002
Posts: 685
|
Gri-gri's are designed for 10-11mm ropes, if you use skinnier ones - especially when the ropes are new - they can definitely slip. Dry treated ropes are even more slippery.
Also, old gri-gri's can wear down to the point where they don't catch, my old one slips on an old 11mm dynamic rope and won't hold at all on a new 10mm. It's in the Thailand pile, ropes get very fat and sticky over there and it catches fine...
|
|
|
|
|
roughster
Apr 26, 2004, 4:31 AM
Post #3 of 81
(28274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 3, 2002
Posts: 4003
|
When that happens it is usually the belayers fault. Often times people will grip the "lead" end of the rope (left hand for aright handed belayer) hard enough during a fall that the gri gri will not engage. However, as the full load of the fall becomes too much for the grip of the belayer, the rope rips out of the persons left hand, however enough of the force is dissapaited to the point where the gri gri will not lock.
|
|
|
|
|
elvis
Apr 26, 2004, 5:21 AM
Post #4 of 81
(28274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 13, 2002
Posts: 77
|
I have had a belay grab the Gri Gri in panic when I fell and stopping it from camming and catching the rope I fell all the way down the route and through a small tree which stopped me from breaking any bones Once again not really a GRi Gri failure but more a Human error . I still use it and have been for almost 7 years now I use it for belaying leaders seconds toproping rappelling while crowbar cleaning and jugging up fixed ropes and have never had a problem its a great piece of gear. I learnt that they are not idiot proof (there is always a bigger idiot)
|
|
|
|
|
organic
Apr 26, 2004, 5:34 AM
Post #5 of 81
(28274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 16, 2003
Posts: 2215
|
If you hold it upside down even with the cam up about 50% of the time it seems to not engage, kind of weird. Did a few experiments with this, check it out and make sure you know exactly how it works before using it so you know what not to do. I have only heard of problems with them on lead belay also because of the varying grip positioning.
|
|
|
|
|
mach_y
Apr 26, 2004, 5:15 PM
Post #6 of 81
(28274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 18, 2004
Posts: 13
|
Recently I was outdoors and a friend could not finish the top of a 10d (just burned out), so I offered to finish the top (I'd only led a 5.7 at that point, but can climb 10+ on TR) as I was not worried about a ground fall being top roped almost the entire way. My wife had me on belay, and I didn't realize she put me on a gri-gri (she's been climbing longer than I too). When I went for the final move (about 5 feet above the last draw), she didn't give any slack (harder to do with a Gri-gri), she pulled me off the wall. Instead of falling 10 feet plus rope stretch, when she braked, the rope went over the handle release of the gri-gri and kept it open. By the time she realized this and fixed it, I fell nearly 30 feet (my first lead fall, ahh!). I didn't deck, but it certainly gave me quite the scare (her too).
Lesson learned for us: we leave the gri-gri at home and only use it for indoor climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
sarcat
Apr 26, 2004, 5:20 PM
Post #7 of 81
(28274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 22, 2004
Posts: 1560
|
If the rope ane Gri-Gri are orintated properly how can the rope go "over the handle release? My guess she is left handed or belays left handed. For right handed belayers I find the Gri-Gri safe. If left handed DON'T USE IT with the rope out over the left side.
|
|
|
|
|
ctclimbz
Apr 26, 2004, 5:22 PM
Post #8 of 81
(28274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 24, 2003
Posts: 137
|
In reply to: Lesson learned for us: we leave the gri-gri at home and only use it for indoor climbing.
This is a lousy lesson to learn from your wife's mistake. A gri-gri, when used by somebody who knows how to use it, is one of the safest belay devices out there, and makes up for a lot of the user error described in the posts above when used as intended. While I have both seen and been the recipient of gri-gri related errors, this has not deterred me from expanding my knowledge about using an extremely capable, effective device in its many differing, applicable situations. You should learn to use the gri-gri correctly and effectively rather than ignoring your mistakes.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Apr 26, 2004, 5:23 PM
Post #9 of 81
(28274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: ...I didn't realize she put me on a gri-gri...
Nice job of double checking each other!
In reply to: ...when she braked, the rope went over the handle release of the gri-gri and kept it open.
I'm having trouble picturing how that could happen. Did she have the grigri upside down? Was it it attached to her belay loop or through her harness tie-in points?
In reply to: Lesson learned for us: we leave the gri-gri at home and only use it for indoor climbing.
What made you come to that conclusion? Why do you think your wife will be less likely to mis-handle her grigri indoors than out?
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jammer
Apr 26, 2004, 5:45 PM
Post #10 of 81
(28274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 25, 2002
Posts: 3472
|
I tried a gri-gri on a 9.5 mm rope and it is no good. Use an ATC or other belaying devices when using smaller diameter ropes. I agree that it should be a 10.5 mm or higher. Other then the size of the rope, I've heard of nothing else except user error.
|
|
|
|
|
ricardol
Apr 26, 2004, 5:59 PM
Post #11 of 81
(28274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1050
|
grigri's work fine as long as you
1 - use a thick enough rope .. 11mm is what i use with a grigri
2 - make sure its threaded correctly
3 - dont hold on to the cam while catching a fall ..
.. i think that summarizes it ..
.. also if you solo with it, tie a backup knot.. (that goes for any solo device) .. i liked the grigri for soloing, it was simple, and i could use it to rappel also .. it's held all 5 of my aid lead falls. (solo).
-- ricardo
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Apr 26, 2004, 6:11 PM
Post #12 of 81
(28274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: I tried a gri-gri on a 9.5 mm rope and it is no good. Use an ATC or other belaying devices when using smaller diameter ropes. I agree that it should be a 10.5 mm or higher. Other then the size of the rope, I've heard of nothing else except user error.
What is it about grigri threads that brings the misinformed out of the woodwork? Petzl appproves grigris down to 9.7 mm ropes. If you know how to properly use the device it will work; if you don't, use an ATC or stay home.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
crimpergirl
Apr 26, 2004, 6:13 PM
Post #13 of 81
(28274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 11, 2004
Posts: 1128
|
I cringe when I see a thread like this because they tend to follow the same structure: One poster says there was an accident with a grigri, and that the belayer did everything correctly. Most following posts blame the belayer and state that grigri cannot fail. End of story.
I think such uninformed responses end any meaningful dialogue on potential problems of grigris and everyone fails to learn from experiences of others. Well, except the original poster who learns to never ever mention it again.
Yes, many "grigri" problems are the result of poor belaying - but not all of them. Check out this url for some great information on grigris and accidents.
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/safety/tech/articles/grigri.pdf
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Apr 26, 2004, 6:34 PM
Post #14 of 81
(28274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: Yes, many "grigri" problems are the result of poor belaying - but not all of them. Check out this url for some great information on grigris and accidents. http://www.thebmc.co.uk/safety/tech/articles/grigri.pdf
Sorry, but every accident cited in that article was a result of belayer error. Belay devices don't kill people--bad belayers kill people.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
jammer
Apr 26, 2004, 6:40 PM
Post #15 of 81
(28274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 25, 2002
Posts: 3472
|
More of a reason to hear real life experiences and decide if this climbing tool, and that's all it is, is for you or not. Buying something blindly is never wise. Every tool we use in climbing has it's limitations.
|
|
|
|
|
texastechclimber
Apr 26, 2004, 7:01 PM
Post #16 of 81
(28274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 2, 2002
Posts: 83
|
I have a 9.8 and a 10.2 mm rope and have never had any problems with the GriGri not catching on toperope, lead, or solo. They fail because of human error. Just because you have a GriGri does not mean you can belay hands free. The belayer should always keep a hand on the ground side of the rope just like you would an ATC. If this is done and the GriGri is loaded correctly and clipped into the belay loop right side up, I dont see how it is possible for it to fail unless the belayer is a moron and holds the cam in the open position with the other hand. I'd say its pretty idiot proof. If you cant figure this out then you should probably find a different sport. Climbing requires common sense; those that dont have it are likely to get someone killed.
|
|
|
|
|
pyrosis
Apr 26, 2004, 7:33 PM
Post #18 of 81
(28274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 1, 2004
Posts: 150
|
The only time I've ever decked while on rope was on top rope and the belayer (a beginner) was belaying with a gri gri. I got to the top of the climb and said, okay lower. The belayer pulled the lever to release me, and I started to accellerate towards the ground. Then the belayer panicked and attempted to slow me down by pulling harder on the lever. I fell faster, and went right into the ground from about 35 feet up. Now, while this was certainly my belayers fault and it happened seven years ago, I STILL don't like gri-gris.
Tavis
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Apr 26, 2004, 7:43 PM
Post #19 of 81
(28274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: Yes, many "grigri" problems are the result of poor belaying - but not all of them. Check out this url for some great information on grigris and accidents. http://www.thebmc.co.uk/safety/tech/articles/grigri.pdf
The article correctly points out two things: 1) that the grigri may not lock if the device isn't shockloaded and 2) that the belayer's thumb shouldn't be used to hold open the cam. Unfortunately, it comes to the impractical conclusion that the belayer's brake hand should remain on the rope all the time, which does not permit feeding rope out fast enough for a clip with most ropes (it will work with some new, skinny ropes). Read the directions from Petzl on how to properly hold the device to pay out rope fast for a clip.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
pabsquid
Apr 26, 2004, 7:51 PM
Post #20 of 81
(28274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 26, 2004
Posts: 4
|
In reply to: Recently I was outdoors and a friend could not finish the top of a 10d (just burned out), so I offered to finish the top (I'd only led a 5.7 at that point, but can climb 10+ on TR) as I was not worried about a ground fall being top roped almost the entire way. My wife had me on belay, and I didn't realize she put me on a gri-gri (she's been climbing longer than I too). When I went for the final move (about 5 feet above the last draw), she didn't give any slack (harder to do with a Gri-gri), she pulled me off the wall. Instead of falling 10 feet plus rope stretch, when she braked, the rope went over the handle release of the gri-gri and kept it open. By the time she realized this and fixed it, I fell nearly 30 feet (my first lead fall, ahh!). I didn't deck, but it certainly gave me quite the scare (her too). Lesson learned for us: we leave the gri-gri at home and only use it for indoor climbing.
The GriGri is a great outdoor tool, especially for belayers that aren't as heavy or strong as their leaders. The key is knowing your equipment and using proper technique. Belaying leaders with it takes a little practice, but test your gear in controlled enviornments BEFORE adding it to your rack.
A GriGri is also a really nice tool for quick belay change overs on multipitches where it's easy to set up belays off anchors.
|
|
|
|
|
crimpergirl
Apr 26, 2004, 8:33 PM
Post #21 of 81
(28274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 11, 2004
Posts: 1128
|
The article makes several points. And if you chose to define them as belayer error, hey knock yourself out. One point the article does make is rarely discussed in these sorts of discussions (this thread is an exception. That is that the grigri can fail to lock if the climber does not shock the system. So if the climber eases back on the rope and the belayer doesn't know it (climber failed to say take and/or the climber is not in the belayers view), the system is not shock and the rope begins moving through the device and it doesn't lock. This can result in an unpleasant fall, sometimes to the ground. Is it belayer error that the system did not shock? Is it the climbers? Does it matter?
I think what matters is the all grigri users know that this can (though rarely) happens. That way, if it does happen, the informed belayer can take the advice in the article and throw themselves to the ground or some other maneuver to shock the system making it lock before the climber decks. This bit of information is one that is not provided by comments like "it's the belayers fault."
If assigning blame is all that matters then whatever. I personally believe it is more important to share information so that belayers know potential risks with any gear, and what to do in the event it happens.
|
|
|
|
|
robgordon
Apr 26, 2004, 8:43 PM
Post #22 of 81
(28274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 3, 2003
Posts: 543
|
am i the only one here that likes a dynamic belay?
occasionally i take big ol' leader falls.
i like a soft catch.
grigri's are awesome if you enjoy being short-roped and don't ever need to rapp on two ropes.
asdf
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Apr 26, 2004, 8:46 PM
Post #23 of 81
(28274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
crimper: its belayer error because the dumbass took his hand off the brake side of the rope in all of those cases. had the belayer kept his hand on the brake, even if the cam didnt engage, the grigri still works like an ATC. Thus, all of those cases are belayer error, since had they been belaying properly, none of those falls would have happened.
and it is the belayers fault, because the climbers life is in the belayers hands. its his responsibility to belay properly. its obvious in every case that those belayers didnt.
the lesson to be learned is: know how to belay properly. know that, if the grigri's cam should fail to engage, you can use it like a regular ATC.....
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Apr 26, 2004, 8:48 PM
Post #24 of 81
(28274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
In reply to: The article makes several points. And if you chose to define them as belayer error, hey knock yourself out. One point the article does make is rarely discussed in these sorts of discussions (this thread is an exception. That is that the grigri can fail to lock if the climber does not shock the system. So if the climber eases back on the rope and the belayer doesn't know it (climber failed to say take and/or the climber is not in the belayers view), the system is not shock and the rope begins moving through the device and it doesn't lock. This can result in an unpleasant fall, sometimes to the ground. Is it belayer error that the system did not shock? Is it the climbers? Does it matter? I think what matters is the all grigri users know that this can (though rarely) happens. That way, if it does happen, the informed belayer can take the advice in the article and throw themselves to the ground or some other maneuver to shock the system making it lock before the climber decks. This bit of information is one that is not provided by comments like "it's the belayers fault."
Sorry to again assign blame, but this situation is absolutely also the belayer's fault. Once the climber begins to slide downward, all the belayer has to do is hold the brake - with minimal grip - and the device will lock.
Every Gri-gri failure that I can think of involves at least some degree of operator error, most of them substantially.
|
|
|
|
|
petsfed
Apr 26, 2004, 8:52 PM
Post #25 of 81
(28274 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 8599
|
How should your dominant hand affect how you belay? The gri-gri forces you to belay with the right hand on the brake end. So if you can't deal with that, don't use the gri-gri!
|
|
|
|
|
saagax
Apr 26, 2004, 8:55 PM
Post #26 of 81
(19323 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 23, 2001
Posts: 244
|
The Gri-Gri has some problems as I see it, once I was top roping at the gym, it was rainning and the rope got a little wet on one end, so when my belayer started lowering me sudenly I just fell the free fall, the wet part of the rope got to the GRI GRI and it slipped, my belayer just let the GRI GRI work by itself (took off his hands from it) and I was stopped like 1 meter from the ground, quite scarry. So now when I see someone belaying with one of thos edeveces I just make sure the rope is dry.
|
|
|
|
|
robgordon
Apr 26, 2004, 8:57 PM
Post #27 of 81
(19323 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 3, 2003
Posts: 543
|
In reply to: The Gri-Gri has some problems as I see it, once I was top roping at the gym, it was rainning and the rope got a little wet on one end, so when my belayer started lowering me sudenly I just fell the free fall, the wet part of the rope got to the GRI GRI and it slipped, my belayer just let the GRI GRI work by itself (took off his hands from it) and I was stopped like 1 meter from the ground, quite scarry. So now when I see someone belaying with one of thos edeveces I just make sure the rope is dry.
it rains in your gym??
|
|
|
|
|
crimpergirl
Apr 26, 2004, 9:02 PM
Post #28 of 81
(19323 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 11, 2004
Posts: 1128
|
I'll try again.
If you'd like to spend time determining who is at fault - go right ahead. I'm not arguing with you.
What I'm saying is that it is important that people understand that a grigri is not a fool-proof, always auto locking device. In those instances when it doesn't lock (wet rope; system not shocked) the belayer needs to know 1) that is can happen, and 2) what to do to make it lock. If this information is not shared, some may just foolishly assume the thing will magically lock. In that way - you are right - it is belayer error.
Is this point so difficult to get across?
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Apr 26, 2004, 9:14 PM
Post #29 of 81
(19323 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
crimper- no, it's not difficult, if thats what you had said initially. however, you tried to blame the device for failing instead of looking to the person operating the device.
we have the same point, you are just making it poorly.
|
|
|
|
|
crimpergirl
Apr 26, 2004, 9:19 PM
Post #30 of 81
(19323 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 11, 2004
Posts: 1128
|
Where have I blamed the device?
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Apr 26, 2004, 9:29 PM
Post #32 of 81
(19323 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
In reply to: Yes, many "grigri" problems are the result of poor belaying - but not all of them.
and also.....
In reply to: Where have I blamed the device?
If you are not "blaming" the device itself, please clarify what else you mean in your comment above--besides poor belaying. Thanks.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Apr 26, 2004, 9:30 PM
Post #33 of 81
(19323 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
maybe you should read your posts again.
"I think what matters is the all grigri users know that this can (though rarely) happens. That way, if it does happen, the informed belayer can take the advice in the article and throw themselves to the ground or some other maneuver to shock the system making it lock before the climber decks. This bit of information is one that is not provided by comments like "it's the belayers fault." "
seriously. a good belayer will just do his job and not worry about why the cam didnt engage until his partner is on the ground or secure at anchor.
youre blaming the device for possible failures. your secondary point is that belayers should be informed so they can take the proper action when the grigri fails.
the real point is that regardless of what the grigri does, if you're belaying properly, it doesnt matter if the cam engages or not.
|
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Apr 26, 2004, 10:04 PM
Post #35 of 81
(19323 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
The safety summary tip in that pdf file was a joke. If a grigri fails to lock up (the only way I have ever heard of this happening is from failing to hold on with the brake hand) your job is to grab the rope with your brake hand. If grabbing the rope fails (highly unlikely), then throw yourself to the ground. Not with the goal of triggering the cam of the grigri, but with the goal of tangling your body up in the rope.
|
|
|
|
|
texastechclimber
Apr 26, 2004, 10:33 PM
Post #36 of 81
(19323 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 2, 2002
Posts: 83
|
In reply to: "Let me get this right ... idiots can use it but morons shouldn't ... I bow down to another self centered sonofabeach who thinks the world evolves around their beliefs. :wtf: Sheet happens. Be glad it hasn't happened to you."
Webster's II Dictionary:
idiot n. 2. A foolish or stupid person.
moron n. 2. A very stupid person.
Sounds to me like I hurt your feelings. So which category do you fall into? The idiots or the morons. Are you that stupid that you cant see the point I was trying to make? I said, "I'd say its pretty idiot proof", as a joke. My point in saying that was that the Gri Gri is very simple to use if you have common sense. FYI: I am not self-centered nor do I think the world evolves around my beliefs. I do however get annoyed by people that use the exuse "Sheet happens" just because they were to stupid to learn how to use a GriGri properly and are putting other climbers at risk. It is fact that belay error has resulted many times in the death of a climber. Be glad it hasnt happened to you!
|
|
|
|
|
meataxe
Apr 26, 2004, 11:00 PM
Post #37 of 81
(19323 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 1162
|
The title of the thread gave me the the mental image of a grigri failure taking place... springs and rivets flying off in all directions.
I have never seen a grigri failure, myself. I have, however, seen a "grigri user failure" that resulted ina 20' fall.
Most belayers should be able to lock off the grigri with the handle locked wide open. I find there is a little less friction than an ATC-type device, but still enough to lock off.
|
|
|
|
|
organic
Apr 26, 2004, 11:01 PM
Post #38 of 81
(19323 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 16, 2003
Posts: 2215
|
Not to contribute to this ongoing flame war but.
1. How may threads or stories do you read or hear, "My ATC failed"? The Gri Gri many be a great tool but it seems to cause problems and controversy more than any other device. And I am sure this is out of pure anger from people who hate it and not because the design of the device in some instances could be better.
2. How do you not short rope with a Gri Gri without taking your brake hand off the rope and not pushing down the cam?
|
|
|
|
|
crimpergirl
Apr 27, 2004, 12:01 AM
Post #39 of 81
(19323 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 11, 2004
Posts: 1128
|
No, I'm not blaming the grigri and I haven't blamed a grigri. Short of the thing blasting apart or spontaneously combusting (something I've never heard a grigri to have done) grigri's don't fail to do what they are designed to do. They are designed to lock up when the system is shocked. They do that. They are awesome devices.
Anytime a climber decks it is the belayers fault. period. (Okay, there are exceptions like when a trad leader climber place sh*t pieces and pulls them while falling. That's not the belayers fault). In general, the belayer has one responsibility and that is to keep the climber off the ground. Nothing I've written says differently.
I have just tried to express that a thread that offers nothing more than saying that it's the belayers fault doesn't offer any useful information to new grigri users and/ore climbers such as the orginal poster.
I just felt it was important to point out potential situations that can happen when using a grigri. There are many people using them, or learning to use them, or even teaching others to use them who are unaware that beyond holding the device open, or using the incorrect rope size the thing doesn't always lock up (for example instances when the climber doesn't shock the system with a fall).
Now, is such a situation happens - and it has - and the climber decks, it's the belayers fault. No question. But in some instances when the device doesn't lock (aside from the obvious belay errors) the failure to lock is not the belayers fault. (Nor is it a grigri failure). Regardless, the belayer better dang well know what the f to do in a situation like that. That is all I had hoped to express to a new climber that just took a class and asked a question about grigri and decking.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Apr 27, 2004, 3:08 AM
Post #40 of 81
(19323 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: The article makes several points. And if you chose to define them as belayer error, hey knock yourself out. One point the article does make is rarely discussed in these sorts of discussions (this thread is an exception. That is that the grigri can fail to lock if the climber does not shock the system. So if the climber eases back on the rope and the belayer doesn't know it (climber failed to say take and/or the climber is not in the belayers view), the system is not shock and the rope begins moving through the device and it doesn't lock. This can result in an unpleasant fall, sometimes to the ground. Is it belayer error that the system did not shock? Is it the climbers? Does it matter?
Yes, it is belayer error, because if the belayer locks the rope off ATC-style, as he is supposed to, the increased frictional force will cause the cam to engage.
In reply to: I think what matters is the all grigri users know that this can (though rarely) happens. That way, if it does happen, the informed belayer can take the advice in the article and throw themselves to the ground or some other maneuver to shock the system making it lock before the climber decks.
That's not the solution. The solution is to lock off the rope.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Apr 27, 2004, 3:12 AM
Post #41 of 81
(19326 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: ...had the belayer kept his hand on the brake, even if the cam didnt engage, the grigri still works like an ATC.
Not exactly. The grigri provides much less passive braking force (eg, when you thread it backward) than an ATC. However, if the belayer had locked off the rope ATC-style then the cam would have engaged.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Apr 27, 2004, 3:17 AM
Post #42 of 81
(19326 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: How should your dominant hand affect how you belay? The gri-gri forces you to belay with the right hand on the brake end. So if you can't deal with that, don't use the gri-gri!
If a climber can't brake right-handed, he should probably find another sport, since there are the occasional belay stances which don't allow one to safely brake with his dominant hand.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Apr 27, 2004, 3:23 AM
Post #43 of 81
(19326 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: No, I'm not blaming the grigri and I haven't blamed a grigri. Short of the thing blasting apart or spontaneously combusting (something I've never heard a grigri to have done) grigri's don't fail to do what they are designed to do.
Exactly. When used properly, they reliably perform under conditions in which they were designed to perform. Used outside those conditions, all bets are off.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
nthusiastj
Apr 27, 2004, 4:06 AM
Post #44 of 81
(19326 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 3, 2002
Posts: 1994
|
People really either really love their Gri-Gri, or hate it. I love it and use it all the time. When used in conjunction with a brain, and the attention required ANYTIME you use ANY belay device, It is safe and effective. It's not that much different from a regular ATC when it's not engaged!
|
|
|
|
|
saagax
Apr 27, 2004, 1:17 PM
Post #45 of 81
(19327 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 23, 2001
Posts: 244
|
In reply to: In reply to: The Gri-Gri has some problems as I see it, once I was top roping at the gym, it was rainning and the rope got a little wet on one end, so when my belayer started lowering me sudenly I just fell the free fall, the wet part of the rope got to the GRI GRI and it slipped, my belayer just let the GRI GRI work by itself (took off his hands from it) and I was stopped like 1 meter from the ground, quite scarry. So now when I see someone belaying with one of thos edeveces I just make sure the rope is dry. it rains in your gym??
Well, it's not exactly raining what I have at my gym, but it is a warm place, so it has a roof and only one wall (the one to climb) so when it rains, if it´s windy, some water can reach missplaced ropes.
|
|
|
|
|
overlord
Apr 27, 2004, 1:24 PM
Post #46 of 81
(19326 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 14120
|
i decked once becasue the belayer didnt know how to use it properly.
when i fell he gripped the lead end of the rope and this prevented the engaging of grigris mechanism. we were using 10.5mm rope and i was lucky becasue it was only about 5-6m. didnt hurt anything.
the belayer knows how to use it properly now and has my full confidence. be carefull when introducing somebody to grigri. just say to them, if i fall grip the brake end and dont panick. the problem was, whe was used to have hes left as hes brake hand, but with grigri he had to use hes right.
|
|
|
|
|
jammer
Apr 27, 2004, 2:24 PM
Post #47 of 81
(19326 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 25, 2002
Posts: 3472
|
In reply to: In reply to: "Let me get this right ... idiots can use it but morons shouldn't ... I bow down to another self centered sonofabeach who thinks the world evolves around their beliefs. :wtf: Sheet happens. Be glad it hasn't happened to you." Webster's II Dictionary: idiot n. 2. A foolish or stupid person. moron n. 2. A very stupid person. Sounds to me like I hurt your feelings. So which category do you fall into? The idiots or the morons. Are you that stupid that you cant see the point I was trying to make? I said, "I'd say its pretty idiot proof", as a joke. My point in saying that was that the Gri Gri is very simple to use if you have common sense. FYI: I am not self-centered nor do I think the world evolves around my beliefs. I do however get annoyed by people that use the exuse "Sheet happens" just because they were to stupid to learn how to use a GriGri properly and are putting other climbers at risk. It is fact that belay error has resulted many times in the death of a climber. Be glad it hasnt happened to you!
id•i•ot P Pronunciation Key ( d - t)
n.
1. A foolish or stupid person.
2. A person of profound mental retardation having a mental age below three years and generally being unable to learn connected speech or guard against common dangers. The term belongs to a classification system no longer in use and is now considered offensive
mo•ron P Pronunciation Key (môr n , m r -)
n.
1. A stupid person; a dolt.
2. Psychology. A person of mild mental retardation having a mental age of from 7 to 12 years and generally having communication and social skills enabling some degree of academic or vocational education. The term belongs to a classification system no longer in use and is now considered offensive.
Both of these word are offensive; therefore, taken in that manner. I am neither. The climber never decked or even came close. The rope did not cause the device to lock. There was no load at the time of the fall. I did use the device as an ATC and nobody was hurt, we both were just a little shaken up. This is why I stated that sh!t happens. You may look at me in any light you want. You can ignore any real life experience if you wish. It's all your prerogative. I will try to pass on some advice ... learn from other peoples mistakes so you so not make them.
Nuff said .... flame away!
|
|
|
|
|
kobaz
Sep 20, 2009, 3:10 PM
Post #48 of 81
(15956 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 19, 2004
Posts: 726
|
[quote "crimpergirl"]http://www.thebmc.co.uk/safety/tech/articles/grigri.pdf[/quote]
(For some reason the bbcode tags aren't working today.
This pdf is a goner. Does anyone know anywhere else that has this file (or a similar report?). There's a guy at my gym who really likes to screw around with a grigri. Things like:
Belaying a lighter climber, holding her weight by holding onto the rope above the grigri, feeding slack out of the grigri with the other hand, jumping into the air and letting go completely (giving the poor climber a sudden jerky drop.
He's the type of guy that says 'it's a grigri, she's safe'. I've seen a few grigri 'failures' in my climbing career due to belayer error. In general, grigris do lock up on their own (hell, I use them for solo-aid), but you just never know... and why would you belay without a break hand, on any device?
So anyways... I was looking for some 3rd party research/literature on grigri failures to show this guy so he doesn't maim/kill one of the nice climber girls at the gym. For some reason my advice for him to stop screwing around doesn't phase him.
|
|
|
|
|
maldaly
Sep 20, 2009, 4:28 PM
Post #49 of 81
(15938 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2002
Posts: 1208
|
kobaz,
There is a ton in information out there regarding belay failures while using a Grigri. A forum search will get you to it. Also try a Google search.
Regarding your friend's behavior; it's bullshit and since he didn't respond to your advice, you should report it to the gym manager immediately. He is putting his girlfriend's life and body in danger AND is putting the gym at risk.
Climb safe,
Mal
|
|
|
|
|
kobaz
Sep 20, 2009, 5:36 PM
Post #50 of 81
(15918 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 19, 2004
Posts: 726
|
I was doing a forum search before I posted. I turned up this thread, and not many others of interest. I'll poke around some more.
|
|
|
|
|
kobaz
Sep 20, 2009, 5:39 PM
Post #51 of 81
(17855 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 19, 2004
Posts: 726
|
And the larger issue is I guess... is that the management was kinda blazé about it.
|
|
|
|
|
adatesman
Sep 20, 2009, 5:45 PM
Post #52 of 81
(17853 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 13, 2005
Posts: 3479
|
|
|
|
|
|
kobaz
Sep 20, 2009, 5:48 PM
Post #53 of 81
(17851 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 19, 2004
Posts: 726
|
Excellent article... Thanks!
Oh... Hey... where in PA are you? I've recently moved to smack in the middle between Altoona and State College.
(This post was edited by kobaz on Sep 20, 2009, 5:49 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
potreroed
Sep 20, 2009, 9:11 PM
Post #54 of 81
(17824 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 30, 2001
Posts: 1454
|
[quote "robgordon"]am i the only one here that likes a dynamic belay?
occasionally i take big ol' leader falls.
i like a soft catch.
grigri's are awesome if you enjoy being short-roped and don't ever need to rapp on two ropes.
asdf[/quote]
Being short-roped = belayer error.
You can use a gri-gri with a 2 rope rappel, you just need to set it up a little bit differently.
|
|
|
|
|
shockabuku
Sep 20, 2009, 9:42 PM
Post #55 of 81
(17820 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4868
|
potreroed wrote: robgordon wrote: am i the only one here that likes a dynamic belay? occasionally i take big ol' leader falls. i like a soft catch. grigri's are awesome if you enjoy being short-roped and don't ever need to rapp on two ropes. asdf Being short-roped = belayer error. You can use a gri-gri with a 2 rope rappel, you just need to set it up a little bit differently.
robgordon hasn't logged on in over a year and the post you were replying to is over 5 years old.
(This post was edited by shockabuku on Sep 20, 2009, 9:43 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
adatesman
Sep 20, 2009, 11:15 PM
Post #56 of 81
(17803 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 13, 2005
Posts: 3479
|
|
|
|
|
|
lar24
Sep 21, 2009, 12:46 AM
Post #57 of 81
(17779 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 11, 2009
Posts: 1
|
I've never seen a GriGri fail. These posts got me curious as to how a GriGri (or an ATC for that matter) could fail, so I checked out the website and found a video about GriGri techniques.
If you have any questions or doubts, give it a watch:
http://www.petzl.com/en/outdoor/belay-devices/grigri
Otherwise, I'd say it's a useful and safe device so long as the belayer uses it properly.
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Sep 21, 2009, 8:09 AM
Post #58 of 81
(17726 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
Pretty much just the existence of the term "autolock" is the problem. Product documentation and design specifics seem unable to conquer this myth. And that shouldn't be a surprise given its locking capability has been a real behind-the-scenes driver of sport climbing since its introduction. It is inherently a functionally 'gray' device by design - locking reliably, but autolocking only incidentally. The problem is it does autolock a high enough percentage of the time that, for all practical purposes, that has become the enduring mass perception of its functionality.
And in reality, the principal use of the device, and the reason for its overwhelming popularity isn't belaying, but rather hanging, and hanging in a way that shifts responsibility for 'locking-off' from the belayer to the device. Shift that locking-off responisibility often enough and, humans being human, it should come as no surprise that most people expect the device to also initiate that locking, and therein lies the sad tale of the numerous edge cases we read about where it doesn't, thereby catching the 'belayer' by surprise. When using a grigri you have to realize that only you are responsible for intitiating locking - you're the belayer, not a belay attendant.
In some ways it's a patterned behavior/addiction from my perspective and the moral is: grigris work fine, just don't expect them to do 100% of your job even 1% of the time.
(This post was edited by healyje on Sep 22, 2009, 7:56 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
jeepnphreak
Sep 28, 2009, 4:51 PM
Post #59 of 81
(17633 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 29, 2008
Posts: 1259
|
My gri gri story. I have ever once had a grigri perform...under par.
two seasons ago my wife and I found a 11b to try out for the first time. There was a walk on/off, I set up the top rope and rapped off.
While I trying to fugure out the crux move my foot sliped and fell. about 5/6 feet...
I was a bit shocked as to how I could go that far and a top rope evan with rop stretch, I like a loose bely but still.
so that night I took a close look at the grigri and noticed that its cam was really sticky and stiff. It had goten gunked up from the fine silts that are at the base the the lime stone cliffs.
I cleaned the grigri up and put a dab of cam lube on the cam. twice a season I clean the rope feeding track out and I have not yet had any troubles with it since.
|
|
|
|
|
shockabuku
Sep 28, 2009, 5:22 PM
Post #60 of 81
(17619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4868
|
jeepnphreak wrote: My gri gri story. I have ever once had a grigri perform...under par. two seasons ago my wife and I found a 11b to try out for the first time. There was a walk on/off, I set up the top rope and rapped off. While I trying to fugure out the crux move my foot sliped and fell. about 5/6 feet... I was a bit shocked as to how I could go that far and a top rope evan with rop stretch, I like a loose bely but still. so that night I took a close look at the grigri and noticed that its cam was really sticky and stiff. It had goten gunked up from the fine silts that are at the base the the lime stone cliffs. I cleaned the grigri up and put a dab of cam lube on the cam. twice a season I clean the rope feeding track out and I have not yet had any troubles with it since.
You should really edit that into intelligible English (or even some other language) before you let anyone else try to read it.
|
|
|
|
|
saint_john
Nov 27, 2012, 4:28 PM
Post #61 of 81
(17087 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 4, 2010
Posts: 494
|
If used properly Gri Gris don't fail. Neither do ATCs.
Belayers fail when they use those devices improperly. Climbers fail when they climb with incompetent belayers.
I can't think of any situation when a belay device, in proper condion and being used in the manner it was designed for, would fail. It's up to the user to educate themselves on proper technique.
|
|
|
|
|
abrock5
Nov 27, 2012, 7:51 PM
Post #62 of 81
(17029 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2011
Posts: 24
|
You resurrected a thread that was over 3 years old...
|
|
|
|
|
shockabuku
Nov 28, 2012, 4:07 AM
Post #63 of 81
(16962 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4868
|
abrock5 wrote: You resurrected a thread that was over 3 years old...
You are clearly mistaken.
|
|
|
|
|
fusionbjj
Jan 29, 2013, 10:24 PM
Post #64 of 81
(16647 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 23, 2010
Posts: 5
|
[quote "mach_y"]Recently I was outdoors and a friend could not finish the top of a 10d (just burned out), so I offered to finish the top (I'd only led a 5.7 at that point, but can climb 10+ on TR) as I was not worried about a ground fall being top roped almost the entire way. My wife had me on belay, and I didn't realize she put me on a gri-gri (she's been climbing longer than I too). When I went for the final move (about 5 feet above the last draw), she didn't give any slack (harder to do with a Gri-gri), she pulled me off the wall. Instead of falling 10 feet plus rope stretch, when she braked, the rope went over the handle release of the gri-gri and kept it open. By the time she realized this and fixed it, I fell nearly 30 feet (my first lead fall, ahh!). I didn't deck, but it certainly gave me quite the scare (her too).
Lesson learned for us: we leave the gri-gri at home and only use it for indoor climbing.[/quote]
Your wife lied about what happened. What you described borders on the impossible. The much more likely scenario is she screwed up somehow, most likely by clamping down on the device with her hand in a moment of panic and kept it from locking up. She was afraid to tell you the truth, or possibly in the way that only women can, convinced herself whatever happened wasn't her fault and made up that scenario in her head.
|
|
|
|
|
petsfed
Jan 29, 2013, 10:56 PM
Post #65 of 81
(16623 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 8599
|
fusionbjj wrote: mach_y wrote: Recently I was outdoors and a friend could not finish the top of a 10d (just burned out), so I offered to finish the top (I'd only led a 5.7 at that point, but can climb 10+ on TR) as I was not worried about a ground fall being top roped almost the entire way. My wife had me on belay, and I didn't realize she put me on a gri-gri (she's been climbing longer than I too). When I went for the final move (about 5 feet above the last draw), she didn't give any slack (harder to do with a Gri-gri), she pulled me off the wall. Instead of falling 10 feet plus rope stretch, when she braked, the rope went over the handle release of the gri-gri and kept it open. By the time she realized this and fixed it, I fell nearly 30 feet (my first lead fall, ahh!). I didn't deck, but it certainly gave me quite the scare (her too). Lesson learned for us: we leave the gri-gri at home and only use it for indoor climbing. Your wife lied about what happened. What you described borders on the impossible. The much more likely scenario is she screwed up somehow, most likely by clamping down on the device with her hand in a moment of panic and kept it from locking up. She was afraid to tell you the truth, or possibly in the way that only women can, convinced herself whatever happened wasn't her fault and made up that scenario in her head.
1) cheesetits
2) zombie thread hungers for BRAINS!
3) the scenario described is possible, provided the belayer has no idea what they are doing with a gri-gri for a leader. The gri-gri has a designated chirality to it, and trying to use the wrong hand for the designated brake hand can and will interfere with the safe operation of the device
4) holy implied misogyny batman!
|
|
|
|
|
viciado
Jan 30, 2013, 11:25 AM
Post #66 of 81
(16540 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 9, 2003
Posts: 429
|
petsfed wrote: ...snip... 1) cheesetits 2) zombie thread hungers for BRAINS! 3) the scenario described is possible, provided the belayer has no idea what they are doing with a gri-gri for a leader. The gri-gri has a designated chirality to it, and trying to use the wrong hand for the designated brake hand can and will interfere with the safe operation of the device 4) holy implied misogyny batman!
+1 on that... and your sig is highly appropriate.
|
|
|
|
|
Kartessa
Jan 30, 2013, 5:01 PM
Post #67 of 81
(16491 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 18, 2008
Posts: 7362
|
Maybe her breasts were getting in the way of her brain.
Happens to me all the time.
|
|
|
|
|
petsfed
Jan 31, 2013, 1:18 AM
Post #68 of 81
(16452 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 8599
|
Kartessa wrote: Maybe her breasts were getting in the way of her brain. Happens to me all the time.
I... but... you...
Man, I don't understand women at all.
|
|
|
|
|
notapplicable
Jan 31, 2013, 2:01 AM
Post #69 of 81
(16446 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 31, 2006
Posts: 17771
|
petsfed wrote: Kartessa wrote: Maybe her breasts were getting in the way of her brain. Happens to me all the time. I... but... you... Man, I don't understand women at all.
I believe that is part of their plan.
|
|
|
|
|
SylviaSmile
Jan 31, 2013, 7:00 AM
Post #70 of 81
(16418 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 3, 2011
Posts: 983
|
notapplicable wrote: petsfed wrote: Kartessa wrote: Maybe her breasts were getting in the way of her brain. Happens to me all the time. I... but... you... Man, I don't understand women at all. I believe that is part of their plan.
Yes, it is like when people driving refuse to use their turn signals because they do not want to lose the element of surprise!
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Jan 31, 2013, 7:08 AM
Post #71 of 81
(16415 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
You guys do know that 'GriGri' means 'Poodle' in French, right?
|
|
|
|
|
SylviaSmile
Jan 31, 2013, 7:12 AM
Post #72 of 81
(16407 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 3, 2011
Posts: 983
|
I don't and I think you made that up!
|
|
|
|
|
Gmburns2000
Jan 31, 2013, 10:46 AM
Post #73 of 81
(16386 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 6, 2007
Posts: 15266
|
SylviaSmile wrote: notapplicable wrote: petsfed wrote: Kartessa wrote: Maybe her breasts were getting in the way of her brain. Happens to me all the time. I... but... you... Man, I don't understand women at all. I believe that is part of their plan. Yes, it is like when people driving refuse to use their turn signals because they do not want to lose the element of surprise!
In Boston people don't like giving information to the enemy.
|
|
|
|
|
viciado
Jan 31, 2013, 3:06 PM
Post #74 of 81
(16363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 9, 2003
Posts: 429
|
It's more like "talisman".
But I bet a poodle would make better pro.
|
|
|
|
|
Kartessa
Jan 31, 2013, 3:07 PM
Post #75 of 81
(16363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 18, 2008
Posts: 7362
|
healyje wrote: You guys do know that 'GriGri' means 'Poodle' in French, right?
I thought it meant "Cigarette"
|
|
|
|
|
Kartessa
Jan 31, 2013, 3:08 PM
Post #76 of 81
(4273 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 18, 2008
Posts: 7362
|
petsfed wrote: Kartessa wrote: Maybe her breasts were getting in the way of her brain. Happens to me all the time. I... but... you... Man, I don't understand women at all.
All you need to understand is that we're crazy.
Once you learn to accept that, life will be a lot easier.
|
|
|
|
|
petsfed
Jan 31, 2013, 6:16 PM
Post #77 of 81
(4235 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 8599
|
SylviaSmile wrote: Yes, it is like when people driving refuse to use their turn signals because they do not want to lose the element of surprise!
I hate that. Driving is not like boxing, telegraphing your next move will help *prevent* getting your clock cleaned.
Other pet peeve: turning your turn signal *after* you've committed to the turn. [sarcasm]Oh, you're turning! I thought you just cut across three lanes of traffic because the relentless ennui of urban life had finally driven you over the edge.[/sarcasm]
|
|
|
|
|
Kartessa
Jan 31, 2013, 6:52 PM
Post #78 of 81
(4223 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 18, 2008
Posts: 7362
|
Or how about the douche bag who comes up behind you, just sticks up your ass for a couple of seconds, swings out, guns it hard to get around you, pull in front of you and hits the brakes because *NOW* he needs to turn right.
|
|
|
|
|
shimanilami
Jan 31, 2013, 8:44 PM
Post #79 of 81
(4195 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 2043
|
Kartessa wrote: Or how about the douche bag who comes up behind you, just sticks up your ass for a couple of seconds, swings out, guns it hard to get around you, pull in front of you and hits the brakes because *NOW* he needs to turn right.
I resemble that comment. Perhaps he learned to drive at the same school as me ... i.e Sears Point Raceway.
|
|
|
|
|
USnavy
Feb 2, 2013, 6:27 AM
Post #80 of 81
(4107 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 6, 2007
Posts: 2667
|
With all the idiocy surrounding the GriGri it might be time we throw the GriGri out and start having people belay with the I'D S. That belay device is pretty fullproof. If you thread the rope backwards it will lock. If you crank on the handle, the handle will disengage. If you need to take your hands off the rope, you can switch to the lock mode and the cam will pinch the rope and completely prevent it from moving in any direction. You can also do 250m raps with it and lower 150kg loads by yourself. It is like a GriGri on steroids. Maybe the next time I have to take a noob belay lead test at some random gym I will use this guy just to piss them off. Oh wait, if one cannot figure out a GriGri then...
(This post was edited by USnavy on Feb 2, 2013, 6:33 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
climberram21dec
Feb 17, 2013, 3:05 PM
Post #81 of 81
(3959 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 17, 2013
Posts: 1
|
Please don't mind friends, try to study why this happening? but as I knew everybody must know limitations of equipments. It'll will mention on Manual.
Please observed this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6EzpBaKYTs
|
|
|
|
|
|
