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dredsovrn
May 7, 2004, 12:13 PM
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I thought I had some lightweight gear, but when you put it all together it doesn't feel that way. I just packed a bag for a two day hike/climb. If I trip, I might be crushed by my pack.
The rack, rope, and tent seem to be the major culprits. I plan to get a 50M x 10mm rope (currently 60Mx10.5) since the climbs we will be doing are ralatively short pitches. And I am in the process of swapping out old ovals for light wiregates. I have a two lb sleeping bag, and only half a bottle of fuel for the stove.
I need some advice on what a good three season, two person LIGHTWEIGHT tent would be. Also, a light, comfortable pack. Maybe 4000 cu in range. Thanks.
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taualum23
May 7, 2004, 12:45 PM
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I've been doing a decent bit of research into tents lately. My criteria:
1) Light
2) Light
3) Light
4) 2 person
5) 3 Season
6) vestibule enough for at least one pack
7) Decent ventilation for Northeast summers.
Beleive it or not, I am beginning to lean towards REI's UL quarterdome. Under 4 pounds, freestanding, two doors, two vestibules, lots of mesh. Only 30 square feet (smallish for two), but I'm willing to give up elbow room for weight.
Also considered black-diamonds new single wall, but no vestibule, unless you want to add one on (more weight, more peices)
Mountain hardware Waypoint, but I'm scared of condensation in a single wall like that.
MSR Zoid 2,
Sierra Designs Clip Flashlight.
All of these were contenders. now, obviously if your area/needs/desires and mine aren't the same, we'd be looking at different tents.
Good luck, as this is one of the toughest gear decisions I've made in a while.
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sbclimber
May 7, 2004, 1:13 PM
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MSR Missing Link.
Big, 37 square feet, big vestibule, weighs about 3 pounds. Not freestanding though. Uses trekking poles to set up.
It''s only 3000 cubic inches, but the go lite breeze pack weighs only 14 ounces. You might want to check their packs at golite.com.
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reno
May 7, 2004, 1:52 PM
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Light weight gear can be found all over...Trade the tent for a bivy sack, perhaps?
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taualum23
May 7, 2004, 1:59 PM
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Sure, a bivy can be great for the right purposes. Personally, if the extra pound or two for an UL tent isn't gonna kill me, I really liek the extra room. There are ultr-light one man tents that weigh about the same as a good bivy, and are between bivy and tent in size.
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cliffhanger9
Moderator
May 7, 2004, 3:00 PM
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theres a few things you can do to shave pack weight and its all about lighter gear - but be warned ultra-light gear is usually reaaaal expensive but it sounds like you have the idea down - the newer wire gates are definitely a good way to gradually convert your way to a lighter rack - and you have a pretty light sleeping bag already
GoLite is a good company to look out for in your search - the stuff is generally pretty decent quality and about as light as it gets and they make everyhitng from packs weighing under 2 lbs. to lightweight 2 person tents under 2 lbs. to clothes that are so light you wont even realize you are wearing them
Bibler makes great backpacking tents too but in my opinion $600.00 for a 4 lb., 2 person tent, is rediculous if you can get the above mentioned 2 pounder for only $99!!
some one also mentioned MSR's Zoid tent - @ $199.00 (still a resonable price - same range as most lightwieght 3 season's in its class) and for a light tent - the zoid is a solid tribute to MSR's durability
speaking of which they also have one of the most popular lines of backpacking stoves like the SimmerLite weighing in at 8.5 oz.
but like taualum23 mentioned - not everyone has the same needs
jsut a few solid places to look to get ya on the right track think we pretty much covered your big bulk in under 20 lbs:
tent: < 2bls. - 99$
pack: < 2 lbs. - 99$
stove: 8.5 oz. - 89$
+current sleeping bag: 2 lbs.
----------------------------------
6lbs. 8.5 oz. = wow.
hope this helps a lil bit :)
but dont forget to look around in the Gear Guide! The Camping category is by far the largest section in there (organized pretty well too... ;) ) and there is alot more out there to consider and to customize to your needs
good lucky and rock on!! :mrgreen:
also dont forget to write your reviews when you finally decide what to get!
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sspssp
May 7, 2004, 3:23 PM
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It won't last as long, but I would go with a smaller diameter rope than 10. There are single rated ropes as light as 55 g/m (about 7 lbs for a 60m).
Get light weight biners. Carry the minimal rack. Consider Friends instead of Camalots (if you don't already). Consider Hexes instead of Friends.
Depending on your comfort factor and where you are going, you might be able to shave weight on your sleeping bag. Your sleeping bag can only be used at night, but clothing can be used anytime. More clothes and less sleeping bag. I have a one pound down jacket from Feathered Friends. In good weather, I skip the sleeping bag. In colder conditions, I have a 1 lb, 45 degree bag (that I can wear the down jacket inside of). But don't take more clothes than you will wear all at once.
Get a good pair of approach shoes and hike in with them. Lighter than boots and then you already have a pair of descent shoes without any extra weight.
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xclimber
May 7, 2004, 3:43 PM
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In reply to: I plan to get a 50M x 10mm rope (currently 60Mx10.5)
Consider a 55m (or50m) double or twin rope, or even better, a dually certified rope. That way you can share the load with your partner, and you have two ropes for long rappels.
In reply to: I need some advice on what a good three season, two person LIGHTWEIGHT tent would be.
MSR has great stuff. Check out their website.
In reply to: only half a bottle of fuel for the stove
Look at a homemade CAT stove. There is nothing lighter, except, perhaps, no stove at all.
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sandbag
May 7, 2004, 4:10 PM
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Kelty has a few super light packs, the "cloud"series, theyre even brilliant white so youre ready for snow cammo warfare.... :?
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lilcapntravis
May 7, 2004, 9:58 PM
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In reply to: Look at a homemade CAT stove. There is nothing lighter, except, perhaps, no stove at all.
bingo. i think the one i made was maybe 2 or 3 ounces. made it from a couple of soda cans.
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trapdoor
May 7, 2004, 10:54 PM
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Here is a good idea for a lightweight shelter and bivy. I use this set up and it works great for only 20 0z! plus the stakes.
http://www.integraldesigns.com/tarps-frame.htm
http://www.backcountrygear.com/catalog/tentdetail.cfm/EQ3000
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bendmonkey
May 8, 2004, 1:37 AM
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For a light pack go to www.backpacking.net . My homemade stove is light weight and burns off rubbing alcohol, it's more effective than you think. :P
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crotch
May 8, 2004, 1:40 AM
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Clearly there's more in your pack than just rope, rack, tent and sleeping bag. What else are you packing? Compass? GPS? Raingear? Socks? Underwear? Nalgene? Fuel?
If you want real weight savings tell us EVERYTHING that goes in your pack on those trips. Part of getting lighter is about leaving some things at home.
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galt
May 8, 2004, 3:57 AM
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Goo! Welcome to the lightweight revolution! I consider myself a hiker first and a climber second so I do have a bit of an expertise in this field. My 3 season base weight (5 days) is a little over 9 lbs., of course this is without climbing gear.
1) Shelter. Use a tarp. I’m making my tarp/bug bivy with a bathtub floor for under $50. If you aren’t up for making one go with the Golite Lair, great value. Ok, not willing to go the tarp route go with the MSR Hubba-Hubba. Amazing value, great tent. I don’t have enough experience with bivies to comment. My only comment one bivies would be watch the weight and how well they breath. Most of em’ weigh more then a tarps and offer much less comfort, not to mention no bivy will breath as well as a tarp. (On an aside, stay away from the MSR Missing Link. It’s heavy, doesn’t breath at all, has a very awkward set-up, is expensive, and doesn’t hold up well if the wind shifts on you. Don’t believe all, or anything at all for that matter, you read in Backpacker.)
2) Packs. Sorry, can’t skimp out on this one. For 5 days w/climbing you’re looking at about 35 lbs. worth of gear (we’re talking climbing here right?) You’re going to need a sturdy frame here. Sorry.
I am going to add that for climbing trips I think an alcohol stove is a poor decesion. The LAST thing I want to do when I get back from a rough day climbing is mess with a stove. I'll take my trusty Pocket Rocket and cook to my hearts content. You have to comprimise; comfort on the trail or comfort at camp... and when you're climbing I'll take comfort at camp. (Packing is another story...)
Good luck, hope you can get that weight down. (By the way, if you ever want to convert to lite weight or ultra lite you can do so for about $200 not including a sleeping bag. Just a thought for all those out there who believe it’s super expensive.)
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caughtinside
May 8, 2004, 4:04 AM
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Good suggestions. I think you can shop REI.com and organize things by weight.
I was bored one day and weighed my ropes. My 10.5x60 is 10lbs, the 50m 9.8mm is 7lbs. 3 pounds difference right there.
Oh yeah, don't take more than one pair of pants. Pants is heavy, yo.
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hikerken
May 8, 2004, 5:35 AM
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My base weight for the weekend is about 9#. However, when I know I"m going to need a heavier load, I've been happy with a Kelty Gale 3500. Good suspension for heavier weight, and lots of features that allow expansion.
For really heavier, I like my Kelty Flight (no longer made), but which is nearly identical to their Cloud. A cheaper/heavier version is the Satori. All three are modular packs, which means that you can remove virtually everything down to a large rucksack, or have all the usual pockets and belts, even nice gear loops. I saw the Satori on sale last week for $160
The cloud is the equivalent to the Bibler stuff...like $650.
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tim
May 8, 2004, 6:36 AM
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In reply to: It won't last as long, but I would go with a smaller diameter rope than 10. There are single rated ropes as light as 55 g/m (about 7 lbs for a 60m).
Watch out with this, I've already given a couple of 9.4mm ropes the chop. For long routes with long rappels I have a pair of twins, but I'm going back to the 10mm for cragging.
If you want to go real light, get a small bag (2000 ci), take a small rack, only take an emergency bivy (eg. something like the MPI deal that is about the size of a VHS tape and weighs 3oz.), and go fast.
Car-to-car in a day, and you'll lose enough weight from your body that you may not need to shave any from your pack (not that you'll have any to shave, but still). In the grand scheme of things, 1 lb. is not a lot, but an ounce here and an extra piece there sure adds up fast.
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sspssp
May 8, 2004, 7:42 PM
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In reply to: Watch out with this, I've already given a couple of 9.4mm ropes the chop. For long routes with long rappels I have a pair of twins, but I'm going back to the 10mm for cragging. only take an emergency bivy (eg. something like the MPI deal that is about the size of a VHS tape and weighs 3oz.)
By "chop" you mean you actually cut them in two? Or you just wore them out?
No I wouldn't recommend a 9.4 for cragging, I thought we were talking back country.
I picked up the MPI insulated bag. The insulated bag--as opposed to the old 3 oz bag that has been around for years--that is the size of a VHS is 12 oz not 3. Still light, but still over half a pound. It has zero breathabiity. I tried it out on a night around freezing wearing a light weight, long sleeve poly pro top and bottom. I was plenty warm (with a fleece jacket I'm sure I could have been warm well below freezing), I was also plenty wet. I could see water drops all over the interior and would pick up fresh "wet streaks" on my clothes every time I rolled over. I think this is a great product for the semi-unplanned bivy on an alpine route. However, it is not the way to get a good nights sleep before a long, alpine climb. And one concern I have about using it on a bivy, you may be warm at night, but crawling out of the d___ thing come morning, it is going to be freezing ass cold in wet clothes (unless you regularly lug up a change of clothes for unplanned bivies.
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tim
May 8, 2004, 8:03 PM
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In reply to: By "chop" you mean you actually cut them in two? Or you just wore them out?
Core shot. A 176-to-185 pound climber (me) shouldn't be using a 9.4mm for anything other than steep-as-shit routes. Simple as that.
In reply to: No I wouldn't recommend a 9.4 for cragging, I thought we were talking back country.
Where your chances of making it out alive if your rope gets it are even worse? Think about this, if you're going to be on blocky alpine routes with rockfall, or ice and snow with crampons, a shorter, general-purpose rope probably makes more sense. But going car-to-car without a real bivy cuts a lot more weight than that...
In reply to: I picked up the MPI insulated bag. The insulated bag--as opposed to the old 3 oz bag that has been around for years--that is the size of a VHS is 12 oz not 3. Still light, but still over half a pound. It has zero breathabiity.
That is the point! It's a vapor barrier and meant only as a true emergency bivy. If it really is 12 oz., then for 4 oz. more you can get a real sleeping bag (Western Mountaineering) with 800+ fill power down), take a pad, and sleep in your insulation if you intend to bivy. I also saw a North Face synthetic bag recently that weighed a pound, but at that weight I would much rather have a down bag!
In reply to: it is not the way to get a good nights sleep before a long, alpine climb. And one concern I have about using it on a bivy, you may be warm at night, but crawling out of the damn thing come morning, it is going to be freezing ass cold in wet clothes (unless you regularly lug up a change of clothes for unplanned bivies.
Unplanned bivy == bivy or die, right? :-). If you're planning to bivy, the lightweight stuff is probably worth looking into, especially if your bodyfat is real low and you're routinely doing long routes with long approaches. My concern is that a lot of people with the low-weight craze don't need it and are spending a lot of money they don't have to. Carry less, go faster, lose all your bodyfat; then if you still have to chop weight, look at the expensive stuff. My pack is cheaper than most and it's lighter and carries well. My sleeping bag is not real warm but gets the job done. My boots weigh <3 pounds, I bought them on eBay for cheap, and I don't wear them unless vertical ice is called for. Et cetera.
I can still lose another 15 lbs. before I am cold all the time, so I'm only interested in the expensive lightweight stuff if someone's selling it dirt cheap and I actually need the item :-)
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dredsovrn
May 9, 2004, 1:31 PM
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In reply to: Clearly there's more in your pack than just rope, rack, tent and sleeping bag. What else are you packing? Compass? GPS? Raingear? Socks? Underwear? Nalgene? Fuel? If you want real weight savings tell us EVERYTHING that goes in your pack on those trips. Part of getting lighter is about leaving some things at home.
Thanks to all for good suggestions. This was my first long approach (2-3 miles). Lot's or rookie hiking mistakes. I am not sure I can list everything that I shouldn't have brought. Afte the first 400' of elevation gain, hot day, too much gear, and poorly packed I thought I was going to die. My partner and I are both in real good shape, but with 70 lbs tearing a hole in each of us we were seriously considering stashing gear. I think we would have given it away. Bad start, but we finally made it in to beat the rain, and then did some night climbing after the rain, and climbed all the next day.
Definitely bring my half ropes next time. Must get together and sort gear and bring ONE rack next time. We had enough gear with us to climb El Cap without cleaning anything and these cliffs were only 85' max. Didn't need all the extra slings, runners, etc... If we just did those few things we would have shaved 15 lbs each. I will carefully look at the individual weight of each piece next time, and look at versatility (ie mulit purpose). I am now a light believer.
One thing I did right was wear a pair of Vasque Velocity trail running shoes instead of boots. They were great, even with the elephant on my back.
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sspssp
May 10, 2004, 8:06 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I picked up the MPI insulated bag. The insulated bag--as opposed to the old 3 oz bag that has been around for years--that is the size of a VHS is 12 oz not 3. Still light, but still over half a pound. It has zero breathabiity. That is the point! It's a vapor barrier and meant only as a true emergency bivy. If it really is 12 oz., then for 4 oz. more you can get a real sleeping bag (Western Mountaineering) with 800+ fill power down), take a pad, and sleep in your insulation if you intend to bivy. I also saw a North Face synthetic bag recently that weighed a pound, but at that weight I would much rather have a down bag!
Well, the first time you suggested this, I thought it was in the context of shaving pack weight and, hence use it in camp. I don't know if I would want a down bag for 4 more oz or not (and you can get a down bag that has a water proof shell for a pound?). Even a down bag is going to be bulkier than the mpi, and even with the fancier fabrics, I'm not entirely comfortable with a down bag in an open bivy without a bivy sack. If you take a bivy sack, then you are looking at more bulk and much more weight than a pound. While the mpi doesn't breath, it would be waterproof in a storm. It is not as ideal for sleeping, but for the weight and bulk, I'm inclined to take a light weight down jacket over a bag since it can be worn while hiking or as a belay jacket.
Still, its good to hear different people thought's and practices.
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dredsovrn
May 10, 2004, 8:19 PM
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I was looking at the suggestions for 4lb tents and such and thought that 4lbs seemed heavy. So last night I weighed my tent with poles, fly and all. 8.5 lbs. I guess I will be tent shopping after all. Anyone tried any of the ones that use trekking poles to set up? Are they any good in the rain? Are they a pain in the butt to set up?
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tim
May 10, 2004, 8:58 PM
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In reply to: Thanks to all for good suggestions. This was my first long approach (2-3 miles).
2-3 miles is LONG? Dude, I've carried other peoples' poorly-packed crap for that length of approach (with a 2000' vertical gain), in August, without caring. 10-20 mile days are long, and when you have one of them for the approach and one for the return (or more!), that's when it starts to be worth spending a bit of cash. Or at 14,000'+ when plodding around in thinner air. But a 2-3 mile approach should be no big deal -- if it is, rise to the challenge and keep at it until it really is no big deal. Peter Croft did a Grade VI traverse in the high Sierra, unroped, solo, in a day, with hiking poles, climbing boots, and a tiny pack, using sharp rocks to chop steps when he encountered ice, and his own momentum to avoid a bivy. That is a particularly high standard to aspire to, but it illustrates what is possible.
Keep doing those 'long' approaches in sneakers, with a reasonable rack and an emphasis on speed (eg. not spending the night out if you don't have to), and YOU will weigh less and climb harder! Promise. (You can't leave a spare tire at the belay, after all.)
That said, the 'light is right' adage will make you climb stronger. And the lightest version of any item is the one that you leave at the belay, at home, or on the shelf in the shop (cha-ching, more gas money for that epic roadtrip to the Bugaboos!).
Here is a piece by John Bouchard substantiating that with some hard numbers and hard experience. If you have not heard of John Bouchard, he is the fellow who did the first ascent of the then-thought-impossible Black Dike on Cannon Cliff, solo (his partner chickened out), topping out with one mitten and one ice axe after dropping the others halfway up, at age 18. Local climbers in New England were skeptical that a young punk could polish off one of the Last Great Problems of the time, so the following winter he went up the route with (I believe) John Bragg and pointed out his piton placements from the FA. From there on out, he just pushed the envelope further, culminating more recently in a superalpine single-push ascent of the East Pillar of Shivling (described in the essay).
I hope you enjoy the article and learn something from it, I certainly did when I first read it years ago. Light is right, lighter is righter, and things which aren't there are lightest of all. I climb faster when I take only the pieces I need, as any of my partners can attest ;-)
One last tip: never attempt to lighten up by taking one headlamp for two climbers :lol:
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dredsovrn
May 10, 2004, 9:26 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Thanks to all for good suggestions. This was my first long approach (2-3 miles). 2-3 miles is LONG? Dude, I've carried other peoples' poorly-packed crap for that length of approach (with a 2000' vertical gain), in August, without caring. 10-20 mile days are long, and when you have one of them for the approach and one for the return (or more!), that's when it starts to be worth spending a bit of cash. Or at 14,000'+ when plodding around in thinner air. But a 2-3 mile approach should be no big deal -- if it is, rise to the challenge and keep at it until it really is no big deal.
Perhaps not long by some standards, but with 75lbs extra, the heat and the uphill, it felt long. Especially when my longest approach prior to this was about 500'. We still climbed that night after the rain, climbed all the next day and covered the same ground on return in 45 minutes. Your hiking prowess is very impressive. If I hiked 20 miles around here to get to a climb, I would have to cross about 20 highways. We all have to start somewhere.
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tim
May 13, 2004, 11:46 PM
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In reply to: Your hiking prowess is very impressive. If I hiked 20 miles around here to get to a climb, I would have to cross about 20 highways.
Fair enough, but my hiking is hardly impressive (and 10 miles each way is not hard to find even on the east coast -- go do Mental Blocks on Wallface). I know folks who have logged 25 mile days with a full pack at altitude. That's impressive. Anything I pull off is strictly bush league, which is kind of the point. I'm not exceptional, I just pack less stuff.
In reply to: We all have to start somewhere.
Lose the depleted uranium in your 75 lb. pack then ;-) Seriously, unless you're humping loads to the base of a grade VI nailup, your pack shouldn't weigh so much. 2-3 miles is not real far and shouldn't debilitate you, honest. Maybe you're packing like Rrradam or something. I offered to carry his crap up Old Rag the first time we climbed there and when he handed me the backpack, the first thing I did was dump it all on the ground to look for the rocks. (There weren't any, he just carries a lot of heavy crap to the crags, cause he doesn't like long approaches) I encourage you to do the same next time :-D
You don't have to buy expensive crap the way a lot of people think you do. Just take less of what you already have and don't take anything you do not need. You'll enjoy it more. And after a while, you'll see what I mean about 2-3 miles not being a lot. I guarantee it.
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chossdog
Dec 17, 2004, 11:19 PM
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I've taken to using a Wild Things epic/primaloft half-bag in place of my down 0 degree sack on alpine projects. Paired up with the usual layers and a belay jacket seems to do the trick. This system worked well on Mt. Baker earlier this season. If conditions are wet throw in a light winter bivy/sleeping bag cover (OR or Mountain Hardware) and you're good to go. If there's a bit of snow about ditch the tent and dig a snow cave.
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gunkiemike
Dec 18, 2004, 3:19 AM
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In reply to: My homemade stove is light weight and burns off rubbing alcohol, it's more effective than you think. :P
Actually, it's less efficient than YOU think. Rubbing alcohol has only about half the BTUs per pound of a hydrocarbon liquid fuel. So switch to high flash, low sulfur kerosene (or the easy to find equivalent - lamp oil) and save a few more ounces.
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phatcat
Dec 18, 2004, 3:37 AM
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uh...not to rub it in more, but i have had a 2-3mile approach hike, gotten there, and then realized i left some gear in my car, so i went back to go get it. it's really not that far. mabye you need a segway? :wink:
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corporatedog
Dec 18, 2004, 4:16 AM
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Go-lite packs????????
ARGGGGGHHHHH.
Unless your load weight is waaaay under 25 pounds (more like 15-18 max)- stay away from Go-lite IMO. The lack of meaningful frame support will trash your back inside of 4 hours on the trail.
Go-lite is great for quick assaults on 12 hour Adventure sprint races when you are already crazed from too much Cytomax and Ephedra HCl.
But for a fun day in the woods - check out Granite Gear Vapor instead. Light enough to count and will carry up to 30 pounds without killing your neck and back.
$0.02
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jamaica
Dec 18, 2004, 5:04 AM
Post #30 of 30
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Registered: Jul 22, 2004
Posts: 188
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In reply to: Unless your load weight is waaaay under 25 pounds (more like 15-18 max)- stay away from Go-lite IMO. The lack of meaningful frame support will trash your back inside of 4 hours on the trail. Go-lite is great for quick assaults on 12 hour Adventure sprint races when you are already crazed from too much Cytomax and Ephedra HCl.
WRONG!!! My hiking partner uses a Go-Lite and I've seen him carry up to 40lbs in one fine. Also, during the winter we usually pick 200 mile sections of trail to hike and we hike it fast, he's never had a problem with his pack at all.
3 Things to minimize weight:
tent - swap it for a tarp, it will take off a huge amount of weight
pack - get a lightweight pack, 2lbs perferably, 3lbs at max
sleeping bag - at 2lbs, sounds like you've got a pretty light bag
Jamaica 8^)
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