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Chopping bolts at Vedauwoo???
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angelaa


Aug 2, 2004, 1:03 PM
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Chopping bolts at Vedauwoo???  (North_America: United_States: Wyoming: Eastern_Wy_: Vedauwoo)
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I heard from some guys at the gear shop in Laramie WYO that there has been some bolt chopping @ Vedauwoo lately.

Does anyone know anything about this?? :x or heard anything ???


photon


Aug 2, 2004, 1:27 PM
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If they are anchors that's too bad but otherwise who cares. I never did any bolted climbing at Vedauwoo that was worth doing.


angelaa


Aug 2, 2004, 1:30 PM
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regardless. . . . of your opinion of Vedauwoo bolted climbs (I happen to agree with you :P ) - lt could put unknowing climbers in a sticky situation.


tradklime


Aug 2, 2004, 1:42 PM
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I will pass on some hear-say... Several hangers were taken from anchors, but the bolts weren't chopped. I don't have personal knowledge of the extent or which routes.


just_me


Aug 2, 2004, 10:43 PM
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I do not have any first hand knowledge, but this is an excerpt from the Vedawoo comments section on climbigboulder.com:

"The weekend of July 10 '04 a friend and I climbed on the Holdout. Beef Eater to be exact. When I got to the top, I noticed someone had chopped two of the three bolts. Luckily, I brought enough gear to make the belay safe, but that didn't solve the problem of getting down safely. We then walked to the three other rap stations on the Northwest side only to find the same scenario. All but one bolt was either chopped or the nuts and hangers were removed leaving the raps useless.

We then walked to the Southeast side only to find the same BS there. Now, we didn't look above "Flaming Blue Jesus" because it was out of sight from the top, but I presume it was the same story.

We ended up having to down climb a section of rock that was uncomfortable to say the least. Who ever did this was trying to prove a point of some kind. I'm not sure exactly what, but I did light a fire under my ass. This is a good way for someone to get hurt. Climbers beware of the state that some ahole left the raps on top of the Holdout."


mtnjunkie


Aug 3, 2004, 4:32 PM
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I can personally vouch for the anchors at the top of Holdout. I was up there in early June. Got to the top of Holdout only to find all of the rap hangers removed from every anchor. However I didn't see any evidence of chopped bolts. Ended up leaving biners on hangers on the NE bolted route (don't have a guide in front of me). Even though I would graciously donate the biners to a climber if they reinstalled the chains on the top of the route, I'm sure some lowlife decided to grab our biners for booty. Don't worry, I only used one of the biners for testing in my shear strength analysis paper for a college course.

The walkoffs are a bit sketch even though they are shown in the guide. I'm not sure if that's the "point" that this idiot is trying to make, but it's despicable nonetheless.


boadman


Aug 3, 2004, 5:10 PM
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Every single hanger on the holdout that could be reached from the top was pulled when I was there in late june. It was a pain in my ass. They left one of the old rivets on top of beef-eater, but it was a little sketchy, so I elected to do the walk off. The hold-out is great for getting a bunch of routes in, but the down-climb really slows things down. The next anchors should be glue-ins. Whoever did it obviously wasn't very good because they didn't steal any of the bolts on 11 cent moon, they probably sketched up the down climb, stole all the hangers, then crapped their pants down leading the 5.2 walk-off. I'm hoping they read this and realize the true extent of their shitheadedness.


hungouttodry


Aug 5, 2004, 11:52 AM
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yea someone even snagged the hangers in the Potato chip on nautlius.
Bastards
-Joe


angelaa


Aug 5, 2004, 11:53 AM
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that would explain why I saw someone rapping off of the anchor above Mother#1 this weekend instead of the potato chip! :x


overlord


Aug 5, 2004, 11:56 AM
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it really sucks when that happens.

hope he breaks a leg. you know, karma and stuff.


petsfed


Aug 5, 2004, 12:05 PM
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Gah.

At least the hanger jackers are too lazy to go out to where I spend most of my time. I wonder, why hasn't said idiot jacked the Walt's Wall Hangers? Probably because s/he can't climb hard enough or doesn't hang out Vedauwoo enough to know where the walk off on that formation is. Plus, I would imagine that the route to the Parabolic Slab (as its also known) that the chopper took was Baldwin's Chimney. I was really looking forward to doing that route soon. I wonder if the Nemo bolts are still there. Probably, you can't exactly walk to them. The bolts out at the Roof Ranch are untouched. Same with out at Poland Hill. Of course, if you chop the bolts at the Rat Brain, you can't get down with out (gasp!) downclimbing a 5.4.

Of course, maybe this is the work of monumentally lazy members of the ASCA in which case, finish the job MORANS!


photon


Aug 5, 2004, 12:41 PM
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sounds like non-climbers to me. Before I started climbing in the 80's me and fellow drunken college students would go up to the voo and try to do the same thing, never did anything like this but if we saw anything close to the ground that looked removeable we would try to get it. They probably just view it as booty to hang off their review mirror or something and I really don't think karma has anything to do with this more like ignorance. Anyway, replace em with glue ins if you can as mentioned


mungeclimber


Aug 5, 2004, 12:44 PM
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In reply to:
Of course, maybe this is the work of monumentally lazy members of the ASCA in which case, finish the job MORANS!

Dude, what are you saying about the ASCA?




Oh, and Just_me, what's the scoop...

"We ended up having to down climb a section of rock that was uncomfortable to say the least."

Back in the day, at Josh, and we aren't half as hard as Wyoming climbers at V, we had all kinds of sketch downclimbs to get off formations. Sounds like you could make it down "ok". Are these guys just removing convenience anchors? and the downclimb was the original descent?

A mere convenience anchor shouldn't go in in the first place. But if it's unsafe from an experienced climbers perspective, then maybe they belong there. What kind of downclimb is it?

cheers,
munge


gawd


Aug 5, 2004, 1:10 PM
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I love how everyone who has learned ina gym seems to find this as an abomination. If there is a walk off to any route/formation what is the point of scarring the rock and adding convenience anchors. Climbing is supposed to be a challenge so learn to deal with adverse situations it will only pay off in the future.

The point of only removing hangers is to send a message without adding more damage to the rock. I am sure if you put the hangers back they will disappear again and again and again.

When did climbers become so heavily reliant on bolts? I would say somewhere around '91 when the price of the rotohammers came down to a near reasonable level. I think that all bolts should be put in with only a hnad drill so that a person whom happens to be bolt happy will consider their action before going ahead and adding convenience bolts.

I have removed hundreds of hangers from unworthy routes and will continue to do so until "developers" unstand that the reliance on bolts needs to be mitgated and the adventure of climbing re-established. You may ask "why does gawd get to make these decisions without consulting the community?" amd I answer it this way "who decided that a non-natural line or convinence bolt is right?" I have as much right to remove these bolts as the person who is placing them has the right to place them.

Instead of whining about it on some climbing related website where I am sure 80%++ of weakend warriors, do something about it. Talk is just that, nothing but dispelled air, whereas actions show the true nature of someones capacity handle real life situations.

Again if you can walk off a formation/route and there is adequate protection possibilites for a natural anchor, then there should never be a bolt or any type of fixed protection. I recommend going out and working outside your comfort level, move above your gear and find out what freedom is....bolts tether you to weakness.

fuck off.


petro


Aug 5, 2004, 1:19 PM
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I sheepishly blame the Wyoming cowboys.

Baaa baaaa
Baaaaaa-stards!!


photon


Aug 5, 2004, 1:23 PM
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gawd,
I recommend you sell your computer and any other modern conveniences you own so that you truly can remain true to your purist theology. Then your moronic dribble will at least contain some consistency until then, get your hyppocrisy bib to catch the spray and when that gets full just STFU


paganmonkeyboy


Aug 5, 2004, 1:26 PM
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In reply to:
I have removed hundreds of hangers from unworthy routes and will continue to do so until "developers" unstand that the reliance on bolts needs to be mitgated and the adventure of climbing re-established.

f--- off.

I do hope you understand that this is Your Opinion Only gawd...and whether I agree with you or not, that too would be My Opinion...
question - will seeing some n00b from the gym fall on the walk off and break an arm put the adventure back in it for ya ?
What about the bolts on Silver Spur next to Yer Mother (I think thats the route...right side of coke bottle...) ? should we wack those too, since you could toprope that face ? How is bolting a face to climb it safely all that different in theory from bolting a belay ? bolts is bolts is bolts...

f-- on...


gawd


Aug 5, 2004, 1:34 PM
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I do not think that a face that can be top roped easily should be bolted, what is the point in deface the enviroment for the benefit of ones ego? The challenge exists wheter the rock is ruined by some rap bolter or if the face is left pristine for all to enjoy.

If a newbie falls off of a rock whilst descending then they do not have the proper skill set to be there and got what they deserve. Climbing is about challenging oneself and accepting the fact that it is dangerous. Tell me why most climbing accidents occur while rappelling?

photon, your point hold no water and I cannot see any relevance with it. I have earned everything that is mine and I take responsibilities for all my actions, so I do not see how getting rid of my computer would be related in my belief that climbers need to be self reliant. I do not take my computer climbing and I do not rely on the internet or anyone who camps on the internet a valid source of anything other then opinions. And yes pagen I agree my words are my opinions the only difference is that I act on what I say whereas most of the people here do nothing other then spray conjecture and poor advice.


mungeclimber


Aug 5, 2004, 4:36 PM
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In reply to:
I sheepishly blame the Wyoming cowboys.

Baaa baaaa
Baaaaaa-stards!!

You can't pull the wool over my eyes.

heh


petsfed


Aug 5, 2004, 4:51 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Of course, maybe this is the work of monumentally lazy members of the ASCA in which case, finish the job MORANS!

Dude, what are you saying about the ASCA?




Oh, and Just_me, what's the scoop...

"We ended up having to down climb a section of rock that was uncomfortable to say the least."

Back in the day, at Josh, and we aren't half as hard as Wyoming climbers at V, we had all kinds of sketch downclimbs to get off formations. Sounds like you could make it down "ok". Are these guys just removing convenience anchors? and the downclimb was the original descent?

A mere convenience anchor shouldn't go in in the first place. But if it's unsafe from an experienced climbers perspective, then maybe they belong there. What kind of downclimb is it?

cheers,
munge

#1, I was just poking fun at an easy target. My experience with the ASCA is that they do their jobs admirably and quickly, thus the "monumentally lazy" qualifier.

#2, One of the posts on climbingboulder.com stated specifically that the bolts at the top of Arch Stanton are still there. You can't just walk up to them. However, it was bolts exclusively on the North Side from the tops of bolted routes. Not "there's a bolt in the middle" but specifically sport-style bolted climbs. If they wanted to make a statement, go chop Arch Stanton. Its an old school A5 that didn't go free until Piana and Skinner retrobolted it. But no, this is some asshat screwing with a section of Vedauwoo that doesn't attract the slavering masses. That is, after you've served your apprenticeship on the Nautilus, The Rat Brain and the Walt's Wall/Fall Wall complex, you go to Holdout, or Crystal Freeway, or Old Easy. And the walkoff is purportedly sketchy. More importantly, every single bolt on the top of that formation has been there since the late 80's.

Vedauwoo doesn't need a bolt war!


nolan14


Aug 5, 2004, 5:32 PM
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Chop, Chop! Bolts no good @ veedauwoo, use trad or go go free solo.


kid


Aug 5, 2004, 6:07 PM
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As it may be a disturbing thought to get to the top of a route and find that the hangers have been removed ,consider this: What if you came to the top of the climb and the flake that those bolts had been attached to was no longer there. I sugest that people climb with a little more self reliance and realize that routes and conditions change. Plan for the worst and hope for the best. If you show up to a climb with your sport gear and no back up equipment, you are getting what you deserve. Use a nut snugged up around the bolt, place some traditional pro, drive a piton or carry your own hand drive bolt kit to protect your self or turn around and head home. All the talk of rock climbing morality, who is right and who is wrong. You sound like a bunch of winers looking for some one to blamb for your own unpreparedness. Your not on a climbing wall at your local health club, your in the mountains. Continue to post current information on route conditions, respect each other and live to climb another day. Good luck with these issues.

This is not the END, This is not the beginning of the END, but rather the END of the Beginning.

Kid
Whitefish MT.


Partner calamity_chk


Aug 5, 2004, 11:59 PM
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amber_chk moved this thread from US - Mountain States to Regional Discussions.


ikefromla


Aug 6, 2004, 1:12 AM
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I wonder what will happen to my user rating if I say that Gawd should ...


just_me


Aug 6, 2004, 6:37 AM
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In reply to:
Oh, and Just_me, what's the scoop...

"We ended up having to down climb a section of rock that was uncomfortable to say the least."

Back in the day, at Josh, and we aren't half as hard as Wyoming climbers at V, we had all kinds of sketch downclimbs to get off formations. Sounds like you could make it down "ok". Are these guys just removing convenience anchors? and the downclimb was the original descent?

A mere convenience anchor shouldn't go in the first place. But if it's unsafe from an experienced climberís perspective, then maybe they belong there. What kind of down climb is it?

cheers,
munge

My original post says I said I do not have any first hand knowledge. The quote in my post came from the Vedawoo comments section on climbigboulder.com. The quote belongs to someone else. I do not know if these bolts are considered "convenience bolts". Does any one else have any first hand knowledge?


petro


Aug 6, 2004, 8:02 AM
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Y'all gotta understand something...

THEY TOOK THE F'IKN BOLTS OFF THE POTATO CHIP!!!

(The Dr'd up picture (pre photoshop) on the cover of the heel and toe guide)

Here is the recipie for LOVE at the Voo. First, you climb Edward's crack, pure jammy candy. She teases you with a short little chimney at the end. Then you grow some naders and decide to climb Mother #1. A beautiful butt-crack of a route. THE most prominant line that you can see from Edward's crack. Then you climb the big ol' girl. Well... you grunt, thrutch, whine, abrade, cheeze grater, sob, crank, wheeze, dryheave, your way to the top. You top out after some beautimus fists, and look across the vast desert of the parabolic slab. You run it out to the top... a little apprehensive with one thought in your head. "ONLY 5.7??? My tucass that was 5.7??? What is their definition of 5.2??? Then you get to the bolts over a beautiful overhanging potato chip.

O.K. this is an interactive post. There is an alternate ending. This is the present ending...

Ending #1) THE HANGERS ARE GONE!!! GASP! EGAD! You are so tiffed that you could cry... you are out of gear, and there is no way to make an anchor. You arrange a hip belay for your partner, and try to make like "The Fridge", his little rap ditty from back in the day is playing in your head. You laugh, but fail to realize that the rope has become lodged in the top of the crack. Your partner nears the top of the climb, pissed off at you ineptness at taking the slack out of the system, and your inability to even come close to replicating 80's old school football player rap. Suddenly, the rock below his left foot turns into ball bearings, and he is shat from said booty crack of a route. He yells, but it's too late, he smacks the end of the rope, sending you head over heels down the parabolic slab. Your pulpus body is slung off the slab like a ski jump, and you realize you have nothing left to lose so you yell "I can see my house from here", as you smack head first into the rock. First it goes the most brilliant white, then it goes black...

Alternate ending #2) THE HANGERS ARE GONE!!! GASP! EGAD! You are so tiffed that you could cry... You studied the guidebook, and yell to your partner that you are downclimbing, the anchor's missing. You head into the top of baldwin's chimney and make a human chock-stone. Everything goes without incident, and your buddy gets to you and is pissed off. "No anchor? Why didn't you tell me you A-wad." To ease the situation, you tell him that you will give him a hip belay as he downclimbs. He makes it down safely, and heads off to the car in a fit of rage. You start downclimbing, mocking your x-partner aloud. "Why didn't you tell me A-wad?" "I can't climb with you today, I have vaginal dryness... A-wad!" Suddenly, because of your lack of concentration, you are falling. Only you are falling down a chimney, like a human plinko chip. First it goes white, then it goes black...

You awaken in a world of pain. The type of pain that makes you question the existance of pain, merely a manifestation of the concious mind. A defence mechanism. As your world fades back from red to technicolor, your view is only a close-up of the Voo's precambrian granite, a drizzle of blood, and your right knee. It takes about 5 minutes for your brain to get wrapped around the idea that you are wedged in Baldwin's chimney, keyster down, head and feet above you. Both arms are broken and numb, and your femorial artery was severed by your nut-tool in the fall. Your world slowly fades as the blood drains from your body.

Three years later, your X climbing buddy commits suicide, unable to live with himself after that afternoon's tragedy. He dies alone in a Kansas City shotgun shack. 400 lbs., bald, and unshaven, wearing only stretched out/month old/unwashed/tattered tighty whiteys, lipstick, and a superman cape.

Alternate ending #3) THE HANGERS ARE GONE!!! GASP! EGAD! You start to shake as the thoughts bounce around inside your head. You are one flashing light away from an epileptic seisure as the picture from the guide-book flashes into your consciousness. There were anchors to the right of the route!!! You shout to your partner and downclimb. Cursing the Ratt Bastard who chopped the bolts and deprived you of one of the Voo's greatest rappells... As you bring your partner up, you loathe the mundane typical, everyday rap. He get's to the top, with a look on his face like "What in the? Who in the? Why I oughtta..." His bottom lip quivers, and his eyes well up. The silence is only punctuated by the dry Wyoming wind, as you embrace, trying to console eachother. The loss of innocence. A small shower of tears falls upon the talus as you rappel tandem style for moral support. You walk off to the truck, tails tucked between your legs, and head hung low in shame. You'll never return to Vedauwoo, your life is ruined... You throw your shiny new #5 camalot into the truck, it bounces and shatters the rear window. You just shake your head, get into the truck, and tear out of the parking lot, spraying the side of a Giant Disel Dodge with gravel. The Wyoming cowboys fire the machine into action, and chase you down. Using their cow-pusher brush guard they send you into the ditch. Your climbing buddy is hurled through the windshield dying instantly, but your fate is much worse. The cowboys bind your legs with your climbing rope, and drag you through the streets of Cheyanne...

The cowboys are never caught. Rumor has it, they were last seen in Kalispell, MT... Heading North...

Alternate ending #4) You clip the webbing running through the two solid bolts, and loosely through the manky 1/4" bolt. You decide that you should replace the webbing, since it is looking a little frayed. You take your time, enjoying the view, noticing the weird pyramid on the plains to the south. Your partner gets to the top, congratulating you on the fine lead. You take the first rap, kicking off into space. The freedom you feel overflows your heart and wells up through your lungs flying out as a hearth barbaric yalp. A touron in the parking lot hears the yalp, and immediately snaps a picture with his 8 megapixel new toy. He waits well past dark, wanting to e-mail you the incredible sunset shot, the nautilus lit blood red against a blue and yellow backdrop of sky, and you perfectly siloetted against God's brilliance. The rule of thirds was obeyed, and even Murphy could not find fault in the beautiful picture. It becomes the backdrop for your office computer, and your boss suddenly decides that you deserve a raise for all your hard work. You run home to your trophy wife's warm embrace to tell her the good news. You stop to fill up, and decide to buy a lottery ticket. You win the lottery, and set up a trust fund for you and every one of your friends, and live hapilly ever after...


overlord


Aug 6, 2004, 8:10 AM
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


petsfed


Aug 6, 2004, 10:13 AM
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petro,

That was beautiful.
*sniff*
The cowboys... paraded through cheyenne... diesel dodge...
*wipes away a tear*
I LOVE YOU MAN!


ikefromla


Aug 6, 2004, 11:45 AM
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that was one of the most interesting things I've ever read on RC.com. GOOD JOB with that...


fredrogers


Aug 6, 2004, 12:01 PM
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The rumor is that the hangers are being replaced ASAP. Yes, these are convenience anchors. Yes, such anchors have been used at Vedauwoo for 20+ years.

J-Tree has got way more bolts/square meter than Vedauwoo will ever have.


billcoe_


Aug 6, 2004, 12:29 PM
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Can't speak to the bolts: but Petro should be forcefed whatever he ate which caused him to write that stuff so we can get some more of it regurgitated.

It'sssssssssssssssssssss GGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEAAAAAAATTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol:

PS, Petro -put some sheep in the next story, everyone loves sheep, even people from New York. :shock:


mungeclimber


Aug 6, 2004, 2:15 PM
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In reply to:
Three years later, your X climbing buddy commits suicide, unable to live with himself after that afternoon's tragedy. He dies alone in a Kansas City shotgun shack. 400 lbs., bald, and unshaven, wearing only stretched out/month old/unwashed/tattered tighty whiteys, lipstick, and a superman cape.

5 out of 6 ain't bad, I just don't live in Kansas City.









:lol:


Good stuff Petro, muchisimas gracias.


sarcat


Aug 6, 2004, 2:44 PM
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gwad is a troll. A 104 year old male troll. He got some of you going didn't he?

Nice prose petro.


mtnjunkie


Aug 6, 2004, 3:56 PM
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In reply to:
As it may be a disturbing thought to get to the top of a route and find that the hangers have been removed ,consider this: What if you came to the top of the climb and the flake that those bolts had been attached to was no longer there. I sugest that people climb with a little more self reliance and realize that routes and conditions change.
Big difference between a natural occuring event and a self proclaimed prophet with an "agenda".
In reply to:

Plan for the worst and hope for the best. If you show up to a climb with your sport gear and no back up equipment, you are getting what you deserve. Use a nut snugged up around the bolt, place some traditional pro, drive a piton or carry your own hand drive bolt kit to protect your self or turn around and head home.
A) I believe all but one or two of the lines to the top of the Holdout are trad routes. Post, then smoke crack.

B) Yeah, let's deface the rock even more because some removed a couple of hangers. Good thinking! How about I drive ANOTHER bolt right next to a hangerless bolt. It will give our prophet another hanger to remove!

Please comment on a topic you are somewhat familiar with.


tradclimbinfool


Aug 7, 2004, 7:26 AM
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Troll or not, the sad truth is that people with gawd's opinion do actually exist. These people take climbing way too seriously and don't realize that in the "grand scheme of things" (and I use this term loosely) climbing doesn't really matter. Climbing is not going to change the world. Climbing is not going to bring about world peace. No one is ever going to win a Nobel for climbing. These people forget that Climbing is a recreational activity. It's something we do for fun. Climbing is no more important or transcendant than (gasp) Golf!


petro


Aug 12, 2004, 7:41 AM
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Who needs bolts when we live in this modern age of duct tape, suction cups, ninja grappeling hooks, sheep (offwidth pro), women with skin grafted to couches :shock: (chimney pro), and who could forget "gecko tape"...


angelaa


Aug 12, 2004, 7:45 AM
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that is too funny, I just saw that on TV last night. . . . . :lol: :lol:
although last time I was in a Vedauwoo chimney, no pro was necessary - because my hips were BOMBER pro :oops: . . . . . and I don't have a couch stuck to my a$$ yet! :wink:


mtnbkrxtrordnair


Aug 12, 2004, 9:05 AM
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Petro, that was fooking brilliant. Best thing I've read here. When are you publishing your first novel. Can I order an advance copy?


pixielesha


Aug 12, 2004, 8:46 PM
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As a former gym rat (forced by location) that is now able to learn from awesome, positive people about trad and climbing outdoors, I was shocked to stumble upon this thread.

I didn't realize that in achieving death "you are getting what you deserve." And yes, Gawd and the others I HAVE heard of the Darwin awards.....

So comforting to know that the very people who could educate us abhorrent previous-plastic-pullers, who in other cases would lovingly cling to their cherished words of wisdom, are going to give said words of wisdom from the perspective of *natural selection* as a way of organizing the climbing community. "---f you"....right, thatís alllllways helpful.

So, thank you to Gawd and his/her ilk who have shown me that I need to be careful who I ask for advice, not just because of technical expertise, but because of *attitude*, they just might be people with some serious unresolved anger issues as well as a serious need for spell check (don't toss that computer, you might need it). Iím sorry to see such hostility, which makes me want to kiss Petro all the more.


petro


Aug 13, 2004, 8:06 AM
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My first novel???

I was just having a little fun, why you gotta get all serious on me? If I could find someone who would publish me, I would. I have an excellent article in "Gases and Technology" ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzz Huh?

No, really. I would love to write for a living, bank on some royalties and lead a nomadic existance. I'll work for cheap, I'm like a spartan with clothes...

---

Lesha, I'd love to teach you some of ropes. I'm always looking for chill people to climb with. I have trust issues when people have phallic personalities.

---

O.K. so I wrote a funny story. Good job Petro, I'm still patting myself on the back... But, I think you guys are missing a deeper message in the story. It was simply an exaggeration to make you THINK!!! O.K. very biased, but... Don't you enjoy some of the cooler parts of our sport? Being able to confidently huck your meat into the gravity experiment that even modern science is trying to understand, with some quiet internal reassurance that everything will be O.K. because of a few slivers of refined ore? In the giant scheme of things, bolts are miniscule. We're really just arguing about the shape of that refined ore, be it stopper, piton, cam, hex, or bolt. It's all just climbing... tools.

I'm a traddie through and through, but every time I clip a bolt, I realize that sometimes I take myself too seriously. I love the self sufficiency I feel when I study a crack system, I may in fact need it. Who really cares HOW we learn our trade? Be it plastic, sport, or insignificant ascents up rocks the size of refrigerator boxes... I climb for the freedom, to alliterate, "the freedom of the hills". I don't really care why anybody else climbs, I am comfortable with my own decisions, and accepting of the decisions of others. If you want to chop bolts, that's cool...

But isn't it better to create than to destroy?

Imagine. All the people... living for the day...
ooo ooo ooo ooo oooo
Some may say I'm a dreamer.

Can't we all just get along?

My impression of climbers in the past is that they were exceedingly cool brotha's. They held the ideals of coolness in high esteem. There may be a few lone wolves in history, but generally, and I recognise the danger in speaking in generalities, however, I'm a sucker for punishment, generally, climbers are social animals.

Why don't you put THAT in your pipe and smoke it!!!

What I'm trying to say here is...

YO!!! Why you gotta be all up in my face like dat? Choppin' bolts? Dude. That's kinda weak. We got a good thing going here, free places to camp, great rock to climb, beautiful scenery... Every time people start gettin' all hard the man comes around and makes me start followin' rules, paying for camping, driving on the pavement, stuck somewhere in the middle of the herd. I have always had a problem with authority, like the rules don't necessarily apply to me... Like there is a secret passage behind the smoke and mirrors, the disappearing magician who knows the trick. I can find that in climbing, but it keeps getting taken away from me. Man? Don't be all choppin' to look all hard man, just be cool...

Savy?


decaf


Aug 13, 2004, 8:45 AM
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Hey petro, you sure you don't write for a living cause you have quite the way with words. :)

Also despite the fact that I did get the meaning of your message the story in and of itself was rather enjoyable to.

Somestimes the medium is as important as the message eh? :D


nistrong


Aug 25, 2004, 3:57 PM
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Good words, Petro, good words. Keep it up.

The problem nowadays is that people don't really have to take responsibility for what they do, unlike what "the master" GAWD and his kin think. We all know that his egotistical ass yanks these hangers when there ain't nobody around, since he's so tough an' all. Well, let's just put it this way: If I see him yankin' a hanger or choppin' a bolt in an area I frequent, I will show him a placement for a #5 Camelot that he never thought would have fit. We'll see if his tune changes after that.

GAWD, pass it off as conjecture but don't be surprised when it's not.


petro


Aug 26, 2004, 6:36 AM
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In reply to:
I will show him a placement for a #5 Camelot that he never thought would have fit. We'll see if his tune changes after that.

GAWD, pass it off as conjecture but don't be surprised when it's not.

Nistrong, I would like to take this opportunity to warn you about the inherant dangers of over camming. Physics would argue, "If it went in, it will come out", but we are talking about an expensive peice of climbing equippage here for Pete's sake. I have seen many over cammed placements that seem to defy all extraction attempts.

If you are talking about the flaring placement that I think you are, a safer option may be a #11 Hex, sideways. Speaking strictly on a cost basis, these peices may be considered disposable when contrasted with a #5 Camalot.

It is your decision though, and I understand that you must draw upon all of your personal experiences before attempting to rectum-fy the situation.

Rock on


cdb1386


Aug 26, 2004, 7:21 AM
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I think a large tri-cam with a good tug might be better and probably the same price as that hex.


nistrong


Aug 26, 2004, 8:54 AM
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The benefit of not being able to get the cam out, however, is that he would forever have his tail between his legs when waddling around like the dawg he is.


petsfed


Aug 26, 2004, 9:37 AM
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Update:

Some friends have gone and replaced a few of the chopped bolts, no news on which. Also, there are reports of half-chopped bolts as well. I can not give locations I have not seen them myself, but presumably that was at the top of Mark's list to replace. I will let you know as I find out more.

Also, this chopping has been limited to the more crowded areas, and to bolts one can get to by walking. The bolts on Friday the 13th are still there, as are those on Air Travel With Report, and the Prow bolts.

Reports say that our chopper is "some old dude" but every single "old dude" that I can think of knows better. So that kicks out Scarpelli (woe be unto the chopper when he meets that individual, and Scarpelli's been out there virtually every single weekend this summer), Kuestner, Jenkins, Piana (why he'd chop bolts God alone may know), Millard, Driese, Jaquot (though I think he's stopped climbing), anybody I missed? They've all placed bolts at Vedauwoo, some unnecessarily, but the bolts weren't chopped. This is a self-righteous gumby. Because if he had any climbing skills, he would've chopped all the bolts on Friday the 13th. Those are all convenience bolts. You just have to climb 11b/c to get off the route.

And what about Southwest Friction? You don't really need the bolts, but if you chop those, you have to downclimb the same route. Why not chop the 4th of July rappel bolts? They're right next to a crack after all.

This disgusts me.


nistrong


Aug 26, 2004, 11:46 AM
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In reply to:
...but every single "old dude" that I can think of knows better... a self-righteous gumby... he would've chopped all the bolts on Friday the 13th... all convenience bolts... have to climb 11b/c to get off the route... if you chop those, you have to downclimb the same route. Why not chop the 4th of July rappel bolts? They're right next to a crack after all.

So old dudes know better than to chop bolts, this bolt chopper is a self-righteous gumby, and yet you're suggesting that it is actually OK to chop convenience bolts. Even going as far as suggesting which ones. Where do you think you get off? If you don't want to use them, here's a bright f***ing idea. DON'T!!! But as soon as you start doling out suggested chops, it snowballs. Who are you to decide which ones are convenience bolts? Doesn't it depend on how egostistical, stupid and self-conscious you are? Take GAWD for instance; I'm guessing 4 inches fully inflated at most. He has to make up for that by being an a**hole and doing generally stupid things. Should we let him decide which ones are convenience bolts? I think it should be a guy that solos 13s in his flip-flops. That would be very objective. Where do you draw the line?


petsfed


Aug 26, 2004, 1:45 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
...but every single "old dude" that I can think of knows better... a self-righteous gumby... he would've chopped all the bolts on Friday the 13th... all convenience bolts... have to climb 11b/c to get off the route... if you chop those, you have to downclimb the same route. Why not chop the 4th of July rappel bolts? They're right next to a crack after all.

So old dudes know better than to chop bolts, this bolt chopper is a self-righteous gumby, and yet you're suggesting that it is actually OK to chop convenience bolts. Even going as far as suggesting which ones. Where do you think you get off? If you don't want to use them, here's a bright f***ing idea. DON'T!!! But as soon as you start doling out suggested chops, it snowballs. Who are you to decide which ones are convenience bolts? Doesn't it depend on how egostistical, stupid and self-conscious you are? Take GAWD for instance; I'm guessing 4 inches fully inflated at most. He has to make up for that by being an a**hole and doing generally stupid things. Should we let him decide which ones are convenience bolts? I think it should be a guy that solos 13s in his flip-flops. That would be very objective. Where do you draw the line?

1) If I were so deluded by my own beliefs as to chop bolts, that's where I'd start. They are the most obvious and public bolts to chop. If I wanted to make a statement, those are the ones I'd chop yes. But you clearly have no familiarity with the area. The only way off of Friday the 13th is to rap from the bolts at the top of the first pitch, the second pitch, or the Prow rappel bolts. But if you're going to chop the bolts at the top of the first pitch (which are 18 inches from the crack that is the route), you have to climb the second pitch. If you chop those at the top of the second (likewise very close to the crack that is the route), you have to climb the third. So if you want to make a statement with that route, you gotta be pulling 5.11+ trad first.

2) Every single person I mentioned (I feel) are the people to ask if you want to chop bolts. You read any of the Vedauwoo guidebooks, their names will appear over and over and over. If nothing else, they can put you in contact with the first ascent party. They know how the game is played. And they're not chopping bolts.

3) My point remains. This is not some *Trad til I die* hardman who is offended by anyone he doesn't think should be climbing. This is instead some *Trad til I die* gumby that hasn't been climbing long enough to really realize the consequences of his choices nor does he recognize the history behind the ethic in Vedauwoo. Say what you will about bolts chopped in the middle of a route. This person is chopping rappel anchors. The most obvious being the anchors at the top of the Parabolic slab. There are no horns, nor chockstones, nor anything else to anchor from at the top of that slab. You have two options, when you climb Mother #1 or Baldwin's Chimney. You can rappel from there, or you can finish via the Parabolic slab. As of right now, if you choose to finish via the Parabolic slab, you climb all the way to the tip of that overhang, then all the way back down WITHOUT PROTECTION. Not more than a month ago, you could climb to the top, clip the anchors, belay up your second and rappel.

This chopper is making a statement, but he since he clearly lacks the background to have any relevancy in Vedauwoo, he must resort to petty (and as Petro pointed out, dangerous) vandalism. I have no respect for this chopper's goals because I spend a lot of time away from the maddening crowd in Vedauwoo, and all of those bolts remain.


slablizard


Aug 26, 2004, 2:52 PM
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I say CHOP THE BOLT CHOPPER!

With a chock of stone on his chupa-choops



Partner calamity_chk


Aug 26, 2004, 2:54 PM
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In reply to:
and yet you're suggesting that it is actually OK to chop convenience bolts. Even going as far as suggesting which ones. Where do you think you get off?

um, maybe i missed something but it seemed to me that petsfed was being facetious when suggesting that more lines get the chop.

did you read his opening line? he's letting us know that his friends are replacing chopped bolts. are you or anyone that you know contributing to the situation - other than spraying on the web, of course.


nistrong


Aug 26, 2004, 3:57 PM
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All good points, petsfed. They don't exactly have anything to do with what I was saying or whether or not I am familiar with the area (which I am), but good points nonetheless. The specific routes and bolts you are referring to are irrelevant to my points. Obviously, you know the area well and are well versed on the bolting ethics debate, but one chop creates a precedent for another. Unless it's a committee that gathers a majority consensus of opinion, any chop will be outside the lines of acceptable practice in my opinion.


lokiraven


Aug 26, 2004, 8:56 PM
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Chopping sux. Dont like'em, dont use'em. Leave'em for the next guy to make the same call.


angelaa


Aug 30, 2004, 12:53 PM
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Anyone heard if the Parabolic Slab rappel anchors have been replaced yet?
I will be up there this weekend and I have a few friends who are new to climbing who would just LOVE that view and the 'exciting' rappel.

If no one knows for sure if it is there, I will just have to go up without them first and if it isn't there rap of the other anchor or practice my downclimbing. I will update this post next week with any anchors I saw missing or those that I KNOW are still there.

Vedauwoo Labor day weekend, it'll be a Zoo!!
:D


angelaa


Sep 8, 2004, 9:24 AM
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Well, the bolt hangers are still on the Parabolic Slab and to the Left of Mother #1 on Nautilus.
All the areas I climbed in had the bolts and hangers intact. . . .


slablizard


Sep 8, 2004, 10:08 AM
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Why climb it at all then? Just stay put and don't smear that horrible chalk/rubber over some "pristine" piece of rock nobody but climbers care about. :evil:

You bolt hater-"I'm pure"- hanger-chopper- envious stuck in a 5.7 chimney are just pathetic. Enough already! Wake up! It's 2004, bolt war ended 20 years ago remember? Train harder and stop bragging about a 5.8 crack nobody cares about.

Geez! Only in America!


In reply to:
I do not think that a face that can be top roped easily should be bolted, what is the point in deface the enviroment for the benefit of ones ego? The challenge exists wheter the rock is ruined by some rap bolter or if the face is left pristine for all to enjoy.

If a newbie falls off of a rock whilst descending then they do not have the proper skill set to be there and got what they deserve. Climbing is about challenging oneself and accepting the fact that it is dangerous. Tell me why most climbing accidents occur while rappelling?

photon, your point hold no water and I cannot see any relevance with it. I have earned everything that is mine and I take responsibilities for all my actions, so I do not see how getting rid of my computer would be related in my belief that climbers need to be self reliant. I do not take my computer climbing and I do not rely on the internet or anyone who camps on the internet a valid source of anything other then opinions. And yes pagen I agree my words are my opinions the only difference is that I act on what I say whereas most of the people here do nothing other then spray conjecture and poor advice.


andersjr


Jul 17, 2005, 4:51 PM
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Re: Chopping bolts at Vedauwoo??? [In reply to]
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If you are going to Jurrasic Park, either pack plenty of gear (small pieces, 1s & 2s) or bring up a hanger and a nut to put a new hanger up. Someone took the bolts of Mud in Your Eye, and there is a crack, but you need a shitload of pieces to create a good anchor.

When a guidebook says that there will be bolts somewhere, there should be bolts to avoid a dangerous situation. People dying is not worth it to try and fight this fight.


mistajman


Jul 17, 2005, 4:54 PM
Post #57 of 57 (6897 views)
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Registered: Apr 15, 2005
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Re: Chopping bolts at Vedauwoo??? [In reply to]
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While climbing at the jurassic park area we noticed that the bolt hangers at the top of mud in your eye and the two climbs to the left were gone.


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