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cracklover
Aug 3, 2004, 5:47 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In the case of this thread though, the climb that started the whole thing was originally done as an aid climb. Several years later it was freed at 5.10. It is a popular climb, one that many people enjoy on the weekends. I bet you could get up Cro-Mag by aiding in less time than a lot of people spend throwing themselves at it on top rope.
I couldn't. My first aid lead, I took nearly an hour to go about 50 feet. I kid you not!
Fact is, these are all TR climbs. I'd rather set a TR on something and give five people a shot at the climb (potentially including people not in my party) in an hour, than have one person monopolize the climb as they aid-solo it for an hour, when they could have moved over 20 feet onto Jane which, chance are, wouldn't see a soul in that hour.
GO
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overlord
Aug 3, 2004, 9:06 AM
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IMHO its first come first served.
but out of courtesy and because youre a nice person, you should pick a line thats not crowded.
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hangerlessbolt
Aug 3, 2004, 12:28 PM
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Yep, FCFS
Saw some yo yo teaching his friends how to aid on Sail Away in J-Tree...classic trad route...always a line...goes at 5.8-
Bad form in deed...which they were constantly reminded of by the folks waiting not-so-patiently
One guy came around the corner...looked up and yelled, "You've got to be f-ing kidding me!!!"
At any rate, the 'teacher' and his 'students' grabbed their gear and bailed.
Doesn't change the FCFS rule...just use your head
Same holds true for TR vs classic trad routes. Get on, enjoy it, then get off so the next team can enjoy it as well.
The one thing I would add to this is to not let other folks "rush" your climb. No mistakes, take your time and climb it smart.
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the_pirate
Aug 3, 2004, 3:12 PM
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In reply to: The first come first serve rule simply can not apply for somthing as totaly freaking ridiculous as learning to aid on the most populer 5.8 free climb at a crag. totaly lame move that deserves a serious dressing down. [snip] If the same person decided to learn aid on fun house or bombardment (5.7 and 8 with constant lines) they should be politely removed from the rock and educated on what is and is not good form. this is comon sense and anyone who can't see the reason for this basic concept has their head up their butt.
By that logic we shouldn't allow guides or climbing schools at any of the popular crags or lines. As a Cathedral climber, I'm sure you are familiar with the need to be on the classics before the guides get there. Crow Hill is the same way. If you want to gurantee that you'll get a certain climb, you get your ass up early. Seeing someone aiding Cro-Magnon, 5.10 (aiding Diagonal, 5.8 is just silly) would aggravate me a hell of a lot less than showing up to find the AMC or the YMCA or the Boy Scouts monopolizing the entire main wall. Yes Janes is a much better line to aid and much more of a conscientious choice to practice on, but that doesn't mean that if he gets there first, he shoudn't hop on Cro-Mag. Now, if there is already people doing laps on it and when his turn comes up, he decides to aid the route instead of taking a lap...... well, that's just ultra poor form.
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far_east_climber
Aug 3, 2004, 3:29 PM
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Well, freeing can be just as irritating as aid if they set up a top rope after the climb and leave it. People around here seem to send 3 or 4 routes, leave the draws in and all the ropes up for a whole day and only climb it a couple times - inconsiderate.
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tradmanclimbs
Aug 3, 2004, 3:33 PM
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Actualy I prefer to hit the classics later in the day when eveyone is done with them. Sleep in, get up casualy and meander up to the cliff. I have done recombeast a few times in late afternoon and gotten right on it. yes it is a given that the guides will be all over thin air, funhouse,bombardment etc but at least they are teaching people to free climb. There is NO excuse to practice aid climbing on these lines. This is kind of a silly argument though as I have never seen anything that silly going on. I don't know the area involved in the origional post but again he stated that the climb in question was a populer 5.8. Sorry It's just dosen't add up. You really do need to take the poor misguided sole aside and steer them to a crack that is better suited for their exercise. Heck If I had the time I might even offer them a lesson on a more obscure crack. If you don't take the time to politely teach new climbers what its all about they will just continue to be a pain in the arse.
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piton
Aug 3, 2004, 5:12 PM
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yeah like the classic 5.8 is going somewhere. 1st come 1st serve, go somewhere else :roll:
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elron
Aug 3, 2004, 5:25 PM
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So is there a lower limit to what people should be allowed to aid climb? I've seen a lot of posts that label aid climbing on a 5.8 crack as "silly". I spent an hour aiding a 5.4 crack a few weeks ago. Not because I can't climb it free, but because it eats nuts and cams the whole way and was a good exercise. Now, I led it at 7:30 at night when I was the only one at the crag. I wouldn't be there on a busy day when other people were waiting to climb.
Just to clarify, do people see a difference between aiding a climb for an hour and hangdogging it on TR for an hour when others are waiting? In my book they're both the same... uncool! But I feel the vibe on this thread is that aiding is somehow lower on the totem pole. Or am I misreading people?
Kevin
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iamthewallress
Aug 3, 2004, 5:25 PM
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I don't think it's about 'lower limit'. You could probably make A4 out of 4th class if you wanted. To me the key, whether you are aiding, TRing, or leading a 50 ft. pitch with 5 sets of cams, is how many people's plans are you dashing with your plans. A lot of people spend the whole day aiding a pitch when they are just learning. If 10 people would have freed that pitch on a normal day but there is an equally good pitch for aiding that no one usually comes to climb, then to me, the less selfish choice is obvious. The aid climber is considerate, but their experience is not compromised if they get on the less popular route.
One weekend last year I was entertaining delusions of soloing up to heart on the lower Muir. My plan was to start very, very early so that I would be up Moby Dick, a 10a crack (A1 for me) and one of the most popular climbs (if not THE most popular climb) at the base of El Cap, before the free climbers came. Of course, it took me twice as long to get there and get racked and then twice as long to climb, so I felt like a big jerk when the first party arrived and I was only half way up and would still need to rap and jug it. To make matters worse, I was experimenting with adjustable aiders for the first time, and one of the buckles slipped every time I stood on that aider.
Luckily for me the first party happened to be friends of mine, so they cheered me on and went to another nearby climb while I finished. Unfortunately, one of them broke his feat decking on that climb, so I got to the achors, fixed my rope with most of my pro still in place, and bailed to help get him back to the car.
When I came back it was afternoon. There were more people waiting to climb the route, and the full mid day sun had expanded my nuts so that they were impossible to remove. I had to get in the way of those free climbers again to get my stuff and then come back and inconvenience a few more the next morning to recover the nuts.
Of course, most aid practice wouldn't involve so many shenanigans. My point is that I felt like such a jerk creating a circus on this popular climb and obviously screwing up so many people's plans. Yes, I was there first and people were respectful of the strange situation, but I wouldn't want to choose that situation again if other suitable alternatives existed because it just wasn't any fun explaining myself over and over again to each party that came up wanting to climb Moby Dick.
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mbg
Aug 3, 2004, 5:36 PM
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The bottom line here is courtesy. If 5 minutes after you've started up a trade route in aiders, 20 people show up at the base wanting to do the same line, you're still going to finish; you'll just feel and look like a total tool. As far as the free rating goes, there is no minimum grade beneath which you should not aid. If a crack is steep, it'll probably be fun to aid.
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the_pirate
Aug 3, 2004, 5:47 PM
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In reply to: So is there a lower limit to what people should be allowed to aid climb? I've seen a lot of posts that label aid climbing on a 5.8 crack as "silly". Or am I misreading people?
You misread me at least. I said that aiding Diagonal was silly (added ratings because tradmanclimbs seemed to be getting confused as to which climb I was referring) because I've done it and it was pretty silly. The diagonal crack, combined with the horizontal ledges and my gargantuan reach meant that I could pretty much keep one foot in a sling and one foot on a ledge and french free the whole thing.
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cracklover
Aug 3, 2004, 6:53 PM
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In reply to: But I feel the vibe on this thread is that aiding is somehow lower on the totem pole. Or am I misreading people? Kevin
Um, a lot of these people are aid climbers. I don't think they're saying they're lower on the totem pole. I guess wallress said it best: the key is "how many people's plans are you dashing with your plans." I think you, and almost everyone else here seems to get that.
But from the original thread In reply to: I subscribe to the "first come/first serve" idea. Honestly - (and no offense Gabe), how could someone tell me that I can't aid a particular climb just b/c every other jack, jim and bob wanna get on it trad style? That's like me saying you can't drive on 93N on Saturdays from 11-2 b/c I drive faster and I'll be on it. Every classic climb has a line to waited in. Take a number. We all have our own goals, and no one should be able to dictate how we achieve them. And I understand the point of common courtesy, but where do you draw the line when it interferes with your objectives?
I would say you draw the line when you inconvenience a whole lot of people just so you can spend hours thrashing and dangling up a line you shouldn't be on because you could learn just as much (or more) on a line 10 feet over without inconveniencing a soul. It's not that frickin complicated!
One line is an aid line and one isn't, not for some arbitrary reason, but because of fair resource allocation arived at by a sort of consensus.
I guess that what it boils down to is that cliff space is a finite resource, and spending all day monopolizing (whether through aiding or by gang TRing a route and not letting anyone climb through) a very popular free route that doesn't fit your needs as well as a different line would - well it just feels like being purposefully wasteful. And why? The above quote seems to suggest the answer "because I can."
GO
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cracklover
Aug 3, 2004, 6:59 PM
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And that analogy about driving isn't right at all. No matter how slowly I drive on 93, you can pass me.
It's more like if you were walking along on the sidewalk and I were to walk in front of you and slow down - then when you tried to go around me I moved over to stay in front of you so you couldn't get around me. You'd probably say "excuse me, please get the hell out of my way!" To which I'd respond "this sidewalk is as much mine as yours, and I can go as slow on it and walk right in front of you if I want."
What's the point, except to be obstinant and rude? Walk as slowly as you want, but let me pass. Take as long as you want on an aid route, but do it where you won't be holding up 15 people.
GO
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markc
Aug 3, 2004, 7:07 PM
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In reply to: And that analogy about driving isn't right at all. No matter how slowly I drive on 93, you can pass me. GO
I agree. The car comparison doesn't wash unless you have people intentionally driving slow in the passing lane.
If you monopolize a popular route at a busy crag for any reason, you're not being very considerate. It doesn't matter if you're gangroping, hangdogging, or aid climbing. However, most people doing aid at a local crag are probably just working on technique, and will most likely not set any speed records. If you plan on really working one route, you're better served by picking an off-time to do it. I'm sure you'll feel more relaxed without a lengthening and verbal line behind you.
The sort of people who aid climb popular routes on busy days probably have no qualms about paying with nickels in the the "12 items or less" line on a busy Saturday. While they're technically there first, and first-come are first-served, it is telling of the person's character.
2¢,
mark
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elron
Aug 3, 2004, 7:08 PM
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Gabe, I agree 100%. Whether its aid or trad or sport or TR, the sport is too popular to be able to take up a popular route for a long period of time.
As I stated in the other thread to start this whole thing off, if I were to aid one of the popular climbs there, I'd show up very early on a saturday and plan on being off the route well before the crowds arrive. now, if some other group shows up at 7am and I'm halfway up the wall, I have to admit.. thats just bad luck and I won't feel too bad about it. if its 10am and the place is packed, then yeah, i'd feel like an idiot
Kevin
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piton
Aug 3, 2004, 8:10 PM
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so do all you little sissies cry when you go to video store to rent a movie only to find out when you get there the movie you wanted is all rented out. or do you move on and find another movie.
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markc
Aug 3, 2004, 8:24 PM
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In reply to: so do all you little sissies cry when you go to video store to rent a movie only to find out when you get there the movie you wanted is all rented out. or do you move on and find another movie.
You have to admit your comparison is a bit flawed. If 20 people rented the popular movie du jour, I'd tell myself I was too late and rent something else. My fault entirely. That's the same thing I'd do if I got to a popular route at a crag and saw a long line. I should be prepared to deal with that if I know I'm going after something popular, be it a movie rental, Tickle Me Elmo, or a route.
If I find out that two guys rented every copy of a new release, I'd ask them what they thought they were doing. If they said, "Hey, we're here first. We can rent every copy if we feel like it!" they'd largely be in the right. They would also be far from considerate. While I'd ultimately find another title, I'd still tell my friends about the two jerks at the video store.
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tradmanclimbs
Aug 3, 2004, 8:59 PM
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Piton is way off base here. there is a time and place for everything. just because you are first does not mean you have the right to be a jerk. the car analogy actualy works. If you drive too slowly on the freeway you will be arrested. If you drive your lawn tractor on the freeway you will be arrested. there is in our scenario, a perfectly fine aid practice area 30 meters away from the classic 5.7 handcrack. You would have to be a complete anti social iddiot or just simply un aware of what you were doing to set up for aid practice on the 5.7. If the perps are jerks they should be treated as such. If they truely don't know what is going on they should be politely educated. If you really want to aid that classic 5.7 do it in the rain or snow.
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diesel___smoke
Aug 3, 2004, 9:24 PM
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In reply to: Piton is way off base here. there is a time and place for everything. just because you are first does not mean you have the right to be a jerk. the car analogy actualy works. If you drive too slowly on the freeway you will be arrested. If you drive your lawn tractor on the freeway you will be arrested. there is in our scenario, a perfectly fine aid practice area 30 meters away from the classic 5.7 handcrack. You would have to be a complete anti social iddiot or just simply un aware of what you were doing to set up for aid practice on the 5.7. If the perps are jerks they should be treated as such. If they truely don't know what is going on they should be politely educated. If you really want to aid that classic 5.7 do it in the rain or snow.
There is a legitimate reason one would be ticketed for traveling slowly on the highway - it creates a hazard for other users, and one's self. If you intend to use the analogy of a car driving on the highway with merit, please state one hazard that two people aiding on your 5.7 creates...
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tradmanclimbs
Aug 3, 2004, 11:52 PM
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Deisel. it is socialy unnaceptable behavior. Just because you get to the base of a climb first does not give you the right to be an a$$ If there was no other good place to practice aid climbing then they would have a right to be there. If there is a perfectly good aid crack that the hypothetical crowd waiting for the 5.7 has no interest in you would have to be extreemly stupid, anti social or all of the above to park youself on the 5.7 :roll: What are you people? Stupid or somthing? gee, lets go over here and see how many folks we can piss off because we got here first. Give me a freaking break. NONE of the people posting in favor of aiding the 5.7 would ever actualy do it, they are just argueing for the sake of argueing. Ah Fu$k you all. you deserve each other :twisted:
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luke
Aug 4, 2004, 1:53 AM
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Just for an example, A friend and I bailed off the 1st 10 pitches of the salathe on el cap one time (in peak season) at pitch 4 or 5 because the leader of the team ahead was learning to aid as he went. For those who dont know, that part of the route goes free at 10c (except for a couple of A0 moves if I recall). Certainly the pitches they were aiding were around 5.7 and 5.8. We were pissed, but the valley is big and we did something else. My guess is that the teams we passed at every intermediate belay on the way down did the same.
Consideration it wasnt. We gave them the FCFS priority, but thought them rude. I figure this comes down to awareness - if you feel like you are cutting into others fun maybe you should offer to let them pass.
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tradmanclimbs
Aug 4, 2004, 1:59 AM
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Luke. we are not talking aboput a big wall. If you get on a wall and you are slow and epicing well you will have that now and then. What we are talking about is single pitch practice climb.
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tradmanclimbs
Aug 6, 2004, 3:31 AM
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Post edited in an attempt to remove head from a$$
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