|
skateman
Aug 10, 2004, 8:33 PM
Post #26 of 48
(5124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 13, 2003
Posts: 186
|
I agree with about 90% of what dalguard said. However, a mock lead may be beneficial even if it only gives you a psychological advantage/ feeling of security while doing a route.
He hit the mark when he said that placing gear is just one aspect of being a good leader!
Route finding skills are key. Mental discipline/ the ability to stay rational are equally important as well. I think everything else has been covered already ad nauseam. Get out there and enjoy!
S
|
|
|
|
|
ricardol
Aug 10, 2004, 11:56 PM
Post #27 of 48
(5124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 11, 2002
Posts: 1050
|
if you want to learn to lead trad -- then you have to lead trad ..
... get out there on the sharp end on some easy climbs .. its not rocket science
-- ricardo
|
|
|
|
|
armsrforclimbing
Aug 12, 2004, 5:09 AM
Post #28 of 48
(5124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 11, 2004
Posts: 214
|
Again, thanks for the help. Placing on the ground and recieving critique from a mentor seem to be the consensus. So I will keep that up. It seems that toproped leads dont make too much sense. I am going to do them anyway though. As soon as NASA gives me some time off that is.
|
|
|
|
|
sbclimber
Aug 12, 2004, 5:57 AM
Post #29 of 48
(5124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 2, 2003
Posts: 444
|
In reply to: We want to refine our placement techniques. Whats the safest way to do so? |
|
|
|
|
alpnclmbr1
Aug 12, 2004, 6:13 AM
Post #30 of 48
(5124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 10, 2002
Posts: 3060
|
In reply to: In reply to: We want to refine our placement techniques. Whats the safest way to do so? on the ground
It is the best way as well.
Mock leading is worse than useless as far as I am concerned. It is an attempt to take a shortcut on more traditional methods.
|
|
|
|
|
pbcowboy77
Aug 12, 2004, 7:29 AM
Post #31 of 48
(5124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 9, 2002
Posts: 574
|
On the Ground!
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Aug 24, 2004, 7:09 AM
Post #32 of 48
(5124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
As several folks have suggested, the very best way to learn to lead is to second. Second as many experienced lead climbers as you can as everyone has a different approach and style. It's also very interesting to second the same route with different leaders to see how they handle it.
A way distant second choice is start walking around with an aider and placing/weighting pro to see how it behaves and then start leading easy routes. If you take this approach try everything: cams, nuts, hexes, tri-cams, pieces in opposition, hell - take a couple of small rocks up and see what you can do with them (and a sling). And don't forget creative sling work in general and try to use natural pro whenever you can.
Maybe lead a very easy route several times purposely trying not to repeat any of the same placements. Be open, creative, and have fun - but again, jump on any chance to second good lead climbers.
(Tech tip #1: Dump the quickdraws while you're learning and use doubled, short loop draws and shoulder slings. Be particularly conscious of the sling length on every placement as short slings are the main reason pro rides out as you climb past it. If they look like they'll ride out anyway, then use an opposition piece - which is yet another chance for more creative sling/biener work.)
(Tech tip #2: You should strive for placements that don't require a bunch of "setting", wailing, or other gorilla activity to get the piece of pro to stay put - an ideal placement should fit perfect with little or no "setting", stay put as you pass it, and come out with ease after multiple falls. Does that happen all the time? For some folks maybe, but only after years and years of experience, still you should keep that ideal in mind. Until then, efficient cleaning of hard set pro is yet another art to master.)
You might also keep a twist of your signature phrase in mind:
In reply to: When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. -Hunter S. Thompson
Might well be restated as:
In reply to: When the going gets weird, the pro gets weirder. |
|
|
|
|
healyje
Aug 24, 2004, 7:26 AM
Post #33 of 48
(5124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
Or to twist Armsrforclimbing's signature phrase:
In reply to: When the going gets wierd, the wierd turn pro. -Hunter S. Thompson
When the going gets wierd, the pro gets wierder.
|
|
|
|
|
robbovius
Aug 24, 2004, 12:43 PM
Post #34 of 48
(5124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 20, 2002
Posts: 8406
|
Seconding has not been generally available to me as a lead training method, and so I have created my own course of study that has included much book study (Freedom of the Hills, etc), much placement practice on very easy leads (5.3-5.4 level) and placement critique by more experienced leaders.
One technique that has greatly helped my placement skills/confidence is regularly building top rope anchors with gear, and then rapping off from and climbing on them.
when I first bought gear, (a set of WC Wired Rocks purchased ion 8/03) I began using them to build my TR anchors at my regular climbing area (College Rock in Hopkinton MA). As I bought more an different gear, I continued the practice, routinely having other, more experienced climbers critique my placements. now, a year later, I am confident enough in my placements that I ordinarily don't seek out the critiques anymore, (though if a more experienced leader is nearby, I'll usually ask them to take a look) and am taking that placement practice and knowledge into my lead climbing.
one benefit is that I've rapped off and fallen on my own gear placements almost every time I've climbed, for over a year, a big confidence booster.
But, in order to learn to place gear, you have to, well, place gear. So given the choice, now, I will always build TR anchors with gear, as opposed to slinging natural features.
I've used semi-mock leads (placing gear with only a TR belay) to work out placement moves and gear management, as well as the route strategy (where to rest, where to downclimb to the rest after certain placements, which hand to place with, where I can most safely run out, etc)
now I'm in a phase of incrementally ratcheting up the difficulty and length of the leads I do, and repeating each several times, building up confidence and skill.
|
|
|
|
|
miklaw
Aug 24, 2004, 1:13 PM
Post #35 of 48
(5124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 13, 2004
Posts: 99
|
Top rope aiding is best. To save time, set up a rope and aid up the line below it. Belay yourself (through a belay device with a figure 8 knot tied in the the rope below, clipped into the harness, move this and reset it each time you move).
You and your friend can climb parallel lines that way. If you have enough gear between you, leave the gear in and critique each others gear.
|
|
|
|
|
darth_gaydar
Aug 24, 2004, 1:15 PM
Post #36 of 48
(5124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 5, 2004
Posts: 168
|
Aid climb.
Don't be a poosy.
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Aug 24, 2004, 1:37 PM
Post #37 of 48
(5124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
1 - Dalguard is a she.
2 - The only person I've known to mock-lead never became a true strong leader (AFAIK).
GO
|
|
|
|
|
dirtineye
Aug 24, 2004, 7:19 PM
Post #38 of 48
(5124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 29, 2003
Posts: 5590
|
It's nice to se that so many approve of ground school.
Some helpul things you can do while on the ground, as long as the placements are hgih enough, is to test hang on your pieces (gotta be wearing your harness for this) AFTER trying to yank em out by hand. You can go a long way to simulate lead conditions from the ground by using one hand and holding onto the rock with the other, getting your feet on the rock ( siz inches off the ground is good), and when you test your gear, do it in a way that does not take you off the rock if the gear pulls.
Another thing you can do on the ground is learn about bad placements and bad ppotential placements. In other words, refine your placement inspection and selection skills as you work on your gear placements. By learning to take your time and get it right as well as getting it in the right spot you might just avoid a hasty crap placement on lead that could result in injury or worse one day.
One other thing you can learn is what happens when you go above a piece on a too short draw or sling-- it may lift or shift. Once you see this happen you will probably not make this mistake when it counts.
You can also see what happens when you fall on the wrong side of a passive piece in a hrizontal "V" like slot-- it comes out! You can practice tensioned opposition too for this situation. It's much easier to learn this on the ground hehe.
Every time I got a new kind of gear, the first thing I did was ground school it, to learn the limits and strengths of the new toy in a safe way.
One other safe way to learn gear placements is to keep in mind that too much gear in the rock is way better than not enough. It is better to pump out and hang on your excessive gear placements than to hit the ground while trying to run it out.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Aug 24, 2004, 7:25 PM
Post #39 of 48
(5124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
In reply to: What is it with you people on rc.com and mock leading?
Damn Dawn, you sound like me. I got roasted on rec.climbing once for daring to mock mock leading. It begs to be mocked!
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Aug 24, 2004, 7:36 PM
Post #40 of 48
(5124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
When learning to do math in school most of us were required to memorize the math tables. We pretty much had to get this rote stuff in place so we could use them as tools, not ever repetitive stumbling blocks where we had to 'do the math' each and every time.
Remember that shit? I bet you still have those tables memorized. The young brain is amazing that way.
Anyway... placing pro on the lead might be thought of in the same way. There is advanced math involved so you better have the basics memorized.
What basics am I referring to?
1. The breaking strength of your gear, wires, cams, biners, slings, harness, rope. Of all of them, understanding how much weaker those tiny pieces are when compared to their larger cousins is supremely important. You need to KNOW, you need to have memorized the fact that a #0 Metolious TCU is likely to fail in a high fall factor situation, that small wires *routinely* break in falls.
2. This one WILL be huge for you if you do it... memorize the size of each piece of your rack in comparison with parts of your body. NOW DON'T BE A SMART ASS! What I mean, is, you come up to a potential stopper placement. You stick your index finger in there and it does to the 2nd knuckle and no more. You should know, like you know the multiplication tables, which piece matches that size. You can definitely do this in ground school.
3. Commit your gear to specific locations your harness/sling/body and have those memorized too.
So now you're leading. You know that a 30 foot runnout on a #2 stopper is a 'must not fall' situation. And you know that when you do come to a placement, in 1 second, the time it takes to stick a finger, or a hand, or a bicep, or your head, you will also know what piece should best fit that placement. And your hand will automatically go to that piece because you know exactly where it is.
Just like knot practice. Memorize. It is the key to the basics.
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
dalguard
Aug 24, 2004, 8:32 PM
Post #41 of 48
(5124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 1, 2003
Posts: 239
|
The only mock leading discussion I remember on rec.climbing evolved into Mike Yukish getting roasted for only leading routes he already had wired. I can't imagine mock leading being endorsed over there.
edited to add: Searching finds no posts under either your name or Sunshine's with the words "mock leading" appearing in them, pro or con.
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Aug 25, 2004, 5:05 AM
Post #42 of 48
(5124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
I'm with CrackLover on this one - I believe "mock leading" will really take you in the opposite direction you need to go relative to developing the emotional and psychological depth needed to become a strong and/or capable leader. Better to lead easier routes straightup than harder ones on a top rope.
There is enough "mock" behavior in climbing as is as far as I'm concerned - again, seconding is the best way to learn to lead. If it really comes down to it grovel, beg, and turn belay slave if that's what it takes to get on a rope with a capable trad leader. It's hard to imagine you can't hook up with someone with all these internet resources and climbing gym boards...
|
|
|
|
|
holdplease2
Aug 25, 2004, 6:46 AM
Post #43 of 48
(5124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 18, 2002
Posts: 1733
|
Nice post, Dingus.
-Kate.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Aug 25, 2004, 4:16 PM
Post #44 of 48
(5124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: I'm with CrackLover on this one - I believe "mock leading" will really take you in the opposite direction you need to go relative to developing the emotional and psychological depth needed to become a strong and/or capable leader. Better to lead easier routes straightup than harder ones on a top rope.
Totally.
Learn placements and anchor building on the ground. Test your placements by attaching a sling to them and bouncing on them to find out what's good and what's not. Then lead easy routes. Mock leading is, at best, a complete waste of time.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
declinebass
Sep 5, 2004, 2:02 AM
Post #45 of 48
(5124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 22, 2004
Posts: 46
|
i havent started trad climbing yet but have thought about doing it and figuring my best way to efficently learn to place gear and even take falls on it. and that has been to climb sport routes and climb them normally and then place pro just a few feet past the bolt. i havent tried it yet and bot me and my boss at the gym i work at dont see why it wouldnt work. maybe that would be a good way for you as well
|
|
|
|
|
tcantor333
Sep 5, 2004, 5:26 PM
Post #46 of 48
(5124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 19, 2004
Posts: 71
|
In reply to: Get a Mentor!! Somone with years of experience with gear, and follow/ clean thier climbs. Sometimes there is no better way to learn how to place gear than removing it from somone who is good at placing it. Once you are understanding how gear works, start out with very easy leads that your mentor can follow and critique your placemnets. Plan on doing the climb over and over again, to practice getting placements right. Finally, there is nothing better than just placing gear at ground level. Make M.D.A.'s, equalized horizontal placements, etc and so on.
This the concise and complete version. Ditto. With emphasis on :On the ground" carefully weighting the pieces with a etrier or sling to test their ability to hold weight. Be careful though as rumor has it that this is a good way to break your ankle.
|
|
|
|
|
tcantor333
Sep 5, 2004, 5:37 PM
Post #47 of 48
(5124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 19, 2004
Posts: 71
|
In reply to: Get a Mentor!! Somone with years of experience with gear, and follow/ clean thier climbs. Sometimes there is no better way to learn how to place gear than removing it from somone who is good at placing it. Once you are understanding how gear works, start out with very easy leads that your mentor can follow and critique your placemnets. Plan on doing the climb over and over again, to practice getting placements right. Finally, there is nothing better than just placing gear at ground level. Make M.D.A.'s, equalized horizontal placements, etc and so on.
This the concise and complete version. Ditto. With emphasis on :On the ground" carefully weighting the pieces with a etrier or sling to test their ability to hold weight. Be careful though as rumor has it that this is a good way to break your ankle.
|
|
|
|
|
brianmccully
Sep 5, 2004, 5:52 PM
Post #48 of 48
(5124 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 23, 2004
Posts: 59
|
My first lead was guy who handed me a rack and told me to climb a five six. One of the caries climbs I have ever down. I then bouth misc cams, nuts, and hexes and just climbed 5.7-8s and went up from there. Most of my first routes were 3-4 pitches so at each belay station I found out how if my pieces would last. I say just climb easy stuff until you build confidence.
|
|
|
|
|
|
