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dingus
Aug 31, 2004, 4:06 PM
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In reply to: JTs responses are exactly why I am concerned about "experts" answering beginners questions. What gives you the right to call someones question meaningless or dumb?
Easy! The 'edit' button. And NOTHING MORE.
DMT
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dingus
Aug 31, 2004, 4:07 PM
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In reply to: I think if he dumps the condescending attitude (or at least tones it down a little bit; I mean, if he dumps it altogether, he would not be jt512) he probably would be one of the big assets to the beginners forum.
Impossible. He learned at the feet of the Master.
DMT
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dingus
Aug 31, 2004, 4:14 PM
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In reply to: The sad thing, btw, is that beyond the very basic information, the rec.climbing archives and Dawn's FAQ were (for me) much more valuable sources than the basic how-to books that I read.
Really??? Please, tell me, how to construct an anchor, put on a harness, rig a decending device and rappel down a cliff using ONLY tradgirl's FAQ as a source of all information. Tell me how to top rope. Tell me how to tie a bowline on a coil. Do you think the bits of excellent advice in that FAQ supercede the basics of 'how to?' Not even by a mile does that FAQ approach the utility of a single how to book, even as far back as the Rockcraft books.
In reply to: Rc.com doesn't teach people to climb.
Kindly point that out to those who feel otherwise would you? I grow tired of it.
In reply to: People don't die because someone says to use keychain carabiners as your draws, or whatever. Believe it or not, even newbies have a responsibility to be smart enough to not kill themselves---otherwise they are in the wrong sport.
This last statement is inconsistent with the stated desire to save the noobs from themselves (even though they are not learning how to rock climb here).
DMT
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dingus
Aug 31, 2004, 4:20 PM
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In reply to: and how successful do you think joh long would be if his books repeated the same information (tie in knots, for example) over and over and over again? which is what happens when new (typically more inexperienced climbers) users post the same questions week after week. which is why we need a faq.
I can't touch John Long's books. For me to presume I understand the keys to their success would be the height of unsupported arrogance. And whether you post a FAQ or not, those same questions will be asked over and over and over. Like, in the 2nd grade? After a season or two, rarely does a teacher hear a NEW question. And yet, those questions are to be treated as if they were being asked anew... because for the asker, they ARE. Noobs ask the same questions over and over and over. GASP! If a teacher can't deal with the repetitive nature of the questions, they are in the WRONG BUSINESS.
This isn't about the noobs anyway. It is about making a select group of people feel better about the forum.
DMT
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dingus
Aug 31, 2004, 4:23 PM
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In reply to: users couldn't rate questions, they would be rating the answers. and based on how many "good" users or "bad" users (baed on their individual feedback ratings) the thread has, users would be able to tell at a glance the value of the thread.
So the very people you assure us cannot tell good answers from bad are going to be voting on them???
Makes perfect sense to me!
DMT
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veganboyjosh
Aug 31, 2004, 4:30 PM
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dingus,
you're right about john long's books. i don't presume to know why they are successful either. prolly cos their written in a style that is casual but at the same time informative and clear. i apologize for assuming i know why his books work.
and if you can't see why the feedback system would work, (a similar system to that which ebay, amazon, and others have been using for years) then i can't explain it to you.
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dingus
Aug 31, 2004, 4:41 PM
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In reply to: and if you can't see why the feedback system would work, (a similar system to that which ebay, amazon, and others have been using for years) then i can't explain it to you.
You can't seem to see the fact that expecting beginners to ask questions expertly is beyond the realm of realistic expectations. So you want to code around it.
You will fail and beginners will continue to ask their repetitive questions.
Because that is what beginners DO. I have never understood this intolerance for beginner questions, not here, not on rec.climbing, not anywhere.
I do find it amusing that the noobie intolerance originally bred by academics in usenet has come home to roost here.
Noobs should be encouraged to asked questions. Period.
DMT
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veganboyjosh
Aug 31, 2004, 4:46 PM
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dingus said:
"Noobs should be encouraged to asked questions. Period."
point taken. i don't want to discourage anyone from asking a question. but at the same time, i (and i think other users) want to be able to visit a forum and read posts from users who aren't asking the same questions i've read a bunch of times before. or asked myself and been answered. how to accomplish that? just deal with repeated posts?
at some point the "annoying" noobs who post the repetitive questions have the potential to answer the same questions they asked at one point, as they aren's noobs forever. hopefully.
how can this repetitive nature be handled and accomodated at the same time? can it even?
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crimpandgo
Aug 31, 2004, 4:49 PM
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Quote:
Noobs should be encouraged to asked questions. Period.
Response:
I second this statement ! An uninformed nOOb is far more dangerous then a noob that asks too many questions. Encourage the questions and answer them intelligently and get them on the correct climbing track so they can be safe and have fun. Heck you might even make a new friend out the experience.
And if you dont want to answer them, then simply ignore them instead of feeding them meaningless flames which, in my opinion does more to clog up RC.com than the redundant questions ever do.
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veganboyjosh
Aug 31, 2004, 4:51 PM
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crimandgo said:
"And if you dont want to answer them, then simply ignore them instead of feeding them meaningless flames which, in my opinion does more to clog up RC.com than the redundant questions ever do."
absolutely.
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dingus
Aug 31, 2004, 5:16 PM
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In reply to: dingus said: "Noobs should be encouraged to asked questions. Period." point taken. i don't want to discourage anyone from asking a question. but at the same time, i (and i think other users) want to be able to visit a forum and read posts from users who aren't asking the same questions i've read a bunch of times before.
BING!
You illustrate my point. This is not about beginners at all, but about making a small, select group of 'experts' feel better about a forum.
Now I ask you... who is the Beginner's Forum for?
When you lock a thread because the user failed to phrase a question properly, you put all beginners in Jeapordy (like that? Pretty neat, huh?). That discourages beginners from asking questions which is EXACTLY THE DESIRED EFFECT.
The effect of suppressing unliked questions and threads is to discourage beginners from asking questions in the first place. It is *on purpose* and stated as a desired goal. And the reason for that discouragement is because these *experts* don't want to answer. Now those are the people I want running my kid's school! The ones who don't want to answer questions and treat their students like shit.
All and all, just another, brick in the wall.
DMT
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veganboyjosh
Aug 31, 2004, 5:19 PM
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dingus,
i concede, you are right about who the noob forum would be for. all this talk has made me wanna get outside.
stupid rain in portland.
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the_pirate
Aug 31, 2004, 5:19 PM
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Somebody check the status of the fire suppression standpipe. Dingus is on fire here.
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crimpandgo
Aug 31, 2004, 5:26 PM
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Another suggestion:
Maybe the beginner forum should be restricted to beginners? reverse physcology. Let beginners talk to and meet other beginners without intervention and flaming from "experts". Questions (beginners or otherwise) should be posted under the appropriate topic areas other than the beginners forum).
Just a thought.
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dingus
Aug 31, 2004, 5:32 PM
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In reply to: at some point the "annoying" noobs who post the repetitive questions have the potential to answer the same questions they asked at one point, as they aren's noobs forever. hopefully. how can this repetitive nature be handled and accomodated at the same time? can it even?
I bet you don't have kids in grade school. If you do, go sit in a 2nd or 3rd grade class for a day. It may open your eyes to what it truly means to be a beginner again.
To your point: I watched the evolution of David Kastrup on rec.climbing and evolution is the correct word. He went from bright (brilliant is more like it) and over enthusiastic noob pipeing in on most every thread, expounding upon book learning and challenging information where ever it came from.
He stepped on a lot of toes with his sledge hammer approach to knowledge, old David did. Me included. I took the occasional opportunity to flame him, once for presenting book knowledge as if it were his own.
But over the course of, jeez, it must be 5 years now probably more, David has blossomed into a strong climber (I think he was strong from the start) and his posts can be counted upon for accurate information. I went from cringing to enjoying to missing his posts and my respect for the german I have never met continues to grow over time.
Such is the evolution of at least one internet dweeb. I think he is a good model to follow.
How do you handle noob repetitiveness? With patience, humor and understanding. And if on a particular day you lack one of those requisites, then you should recuse yourself from fielding noob questions.
jt512 challenged me to answer the Yosemite finish knot question. I did not even read the subsequent thread as far as I recall. I had no desire to do so. I do not presuppose to have all the answers and I don't even attempt to answer most technical questions. Why? It isn't my forte for one. I recognize the superior technical wizardry of folks like jt512, curt, rgold and others.
Too bad for the noobs some of them are too curmudgeonly and stingy to answer most of the time. They would rather suppress questions than answer them.
DMT
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cracklover
Aug 31, 2004, 6:38 PM
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In reply to: Too bad for the noobs some of them are too curmudgeonly and stingy to answer most of the time. They would rather suppress questions than answer them.
DMT
italics added for emphasis.
Thanks for the some, dingus. Your brush was getting a bit broad there.
While I agree with much of what you're saying, I think your ire is misplaced. I like answering questions, noob or otherwise. I've only been climbing five or six years, and in many aspects, I am very much still a noob. Ask me questions about big-wall climbing, alpine adventures, or bouldering pads, and I'll forward you on to better sources than me. But ask me about trad climbing, double ropes, New England climbing, or some technical issues, and I'll happily give you the best info I can, while readily admitting the limits on my own knowledge. You see, I know what it feels like to not know stuff - because there's so much I *don't* know! All it takes is a little compassion to take you from this state to the desire to help others. I think this is actually the rule rather than the exception you make it out to be.
Here's the heart of the problem: while I think my compassion and desire to be helpful is very common, what's less common is the ability to realize the limitations of one's own knowledge. This is the true cause of all the heartache about the beginner's forum. This is why beginners give incorrect answers to other beginners. Hey, they figure they know something about the topic - their compassion leads them to try to help. This is also the cause of the beginner who asks a question in a misleading or confusing way. They don't realize they need to put very clear parameters around their question because they don't see the bleed of their question into other possible meanings. How can they? They have no knowledge that those other meanings could be read into their question.
I can't speak for JT, Curt, or anyone else. But speaking for myself, I too want to encourage beginners to ask questions. I also want to encourage them to be as clear as possible with their questions, because as beginners they don't realize that without adding in those clarifying points their questions will be misinterpreted. To encourage that point, a little healthy flaming by JT and others may not be such a bad thing, especially if it's done with a little more grace than you typically see. Secondly, I want to encourage those who don't have a full comprehension of the subject matter to hold their tounges on technical matters when they have some doubt. I don't think I have to convince you of that, I think.
My suggestion (and UASunflower's refinement of it) was simply a way of encouraging those posters who really have a commitment to adding more than a throwaway comment, and who at least think they have some real knowledge to pull from, to get involved. I was also thinking it would broaden the pool of "experts" to include regular folks who just happen to have a penchant to be helpful, enough of a grasp of the english language and human psychology, and the climbing experience under their belts. Who know, might broaden the pool out as far as to include folks like you and me. I also hoped it would help gather text for the FAQ, which seems valuable (to me at least).
Cheers,
GO
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dingus
Aug 31, 2004, 6:58 PM
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In reply to: I think your ire is misplaced.
OK, let me set this straight then. I have no ire about this subject, toward any of the participants or rc.com in general. I was not being angry this morning in my various replies.
In fact, I respect the very same people I criticize to a great extent. While I strongly disagree with, for example, jt512's Lord Slimeing ways, I totally respect his knowledge and abilities as a climber and even his role as a leader here on rc.com. You don't see me often arguing a technical issue with Jay (or Curt, et al). These guys know their shit. I not only accept it, I respect it.
But I have strong and consistent opinions about free speech and I will make and defend those notions till the cows come home. I came to this group, a group of climbers I happen to like and enjoy reading by the way, with those strongly held opinions and my time here has only reenforced them. Call me a broken record all you wish. Attribute my rantings to 'ire' if it helps, but I will never agree that suppression of questions is the correct path to enlightenment.
It is my hope, that one person at a time, the admins and mods of this very nice web site will come to agree more with me and less with the controllers. They will come to understand the value, the brilliant value of letting people speak their own words. A country was built on it, so I think we could manage a website with similar freedoms without self-immolation.
The participants of this discussion should be required to reread Animal Farm.
Meet the new boss, he's the same as the old boss.
I say, screw the BOSS, who ever she may be! I don't need no stinking boss to regulate my conversations and this ENTIRE THREAD is about regulating people's words.
Shame on those who suppress genuine questions because they irritate.
DMT
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jt512
Aug 31, 2004, 7:55 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Jay, do newcomers ever read the FAQ. :wink: This is probably a dumb question and I know I should already know this, but where is the FAQ? I'm only half kidding. It's not easy to get to. It should be right at the top beside the Forums link in the menu bar, as well as being listed as FAQ Search under the search section at left.
The FAQ really hasn't been rolled out yet. Alpnclimbr1 just started putting it together a couple weeks ago. I agree that it should be prominently displayed.
-Jay
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jt512
Aug 31, 2004, 8:02 PM
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In reply to: Noobs ask the same questions over and over and over. GASP! If a teacher can't deal with the repetitive nature of the questions, they are in the WRONG BUSINESS.
That statement contradicts your assertion that n00bs aren't learning to climb here.
-Jay
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jt512
Aug 31, 2004, 8:05 PM
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In reply to: Noobs should be encouraged to asked questions. Period. DMT
Not quite. N00bs should be encouraged to look up their questions in a FAQ; then, if they still have questions, to post them.
-Jay
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cracklover
Aug 31, 2004, 8:37 PM
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Dingus, you ignored the entire substance of my post to harp on an issue that is, if I may be so bold, irrelevant to the subject I'm trying to address. That's your prerogative of course, but I don't think it forwards the discussion at all.
Let me be 100% clear. I'm not recommending any changes to the beginner's forum. However the powers-that-be have made it known that changes are in the works. I'm suggesting a way to implement those changes. A way that I hope might be better easier, and involve less censorship and less work for all involved. Take a look at the actual substance of the idea before you condemn it.
GO
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dingus
Aug 31, 2004, 8:48 PM
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In reply to: Dingus, you ignored the entire substance of my post to harp on an issue that is, if I may be so bold, irrelevant to the subject I'm trying to address. That's your prerogative of course, but I don't think it forwards the discussion at all.
I read your whole post. You said I was mad. I wanted to reassure you I was not mad, nor am I irrelevant now that I think about it. A lot of times it is easier to dismiss what someone is saying if they are perceived as angry. So maybe it was a throw away line or you but it was not irrelevant to me at all.
In reply to: Let me be 100% clear. I'm not recommending any changes to the beginner's forum. However the powers-that-be have made it known that changes are in the works. I'm suggesting a way to implement those changes.
Yes you are. So am I by the way, by recommending what not to do and more importantly who shouldn't do it. In the grand scheme of things, the least intrusive improvement would be a completely new 'ask the experts' forum controlled by that core group. You know the ones.
And leave the beginners forum as-is but with the addition of the FAQ work alpnclmr1 is constructing. And any recognixed expert from the Experts Forum should stay out of the beginners forum entirely. Otherwise they will continue to complain about the same old stupid noob questions until long after the cows go home.
In reply to: A way that I hope might be better easier, and involve less censorship and less work for all involved. Take a look at the actual substance of the idea before you condemn it. GO
Cheers
DMT
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cracklover
Aug 31, 2004, 9:49 PM
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Okay, perhaps ire was the wrong word. You clearly have strong feelings on the subject, whatever you wish to call them. Fair enough. While you're not a one-trick pony on this site, it does bum me out that you focused on that one word - Ire, to the exlusion of all the actual content here. For you, it would appear that this thread is like all the other threads about RC.com, a platform for your standard stump speech. I mean, thread drift is all well and good, but I would certainly value your opinion on my actual idea. That is, after all, why I started this thread.
But the truth is that I think you and I have little common ground on this issue. What it boils down to is that it's clear that my ideas start from the basic premise that a small amount of censorship and structural power discrepancy is inherent in the world of rc.com. So while I do care about censorship and powerplay, I can't help but see some of the points you make in this thread a little trite. And similarly, while it's disappointing to me that you cannot speak to any of my suggestions about the Beginners/Ask-The-Experts forum, I understand it's not because you don't care, it's simply because you can never accept the basic premise from which I start, and so every suggestion built on top of that is irrelevant to you. So be it. No hard feelings.
Cheers,
GO
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csoles
Aug 31, 2004, 10:32 PM
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FWIW I strongly suspect that locking posts, FAQ, "Experts" forum are all setting up the web site for a massive lawsuit that may spell the end of it. If you haven't consulted with a lawyer specializing in outdoor liability, you may be creating a quagmire that you can't imagine.
Without all this formality and just allowing questions and discussion, RC.com was probably fairly safe. But the FAQ, in particular, and moves to limit who can respond may well be creating a legal standard of care that none of you anticipated.
Until you have this straightened out with a competent lawyer, I'd suggest not having your name attached to the FAQ in any way. Or even participating as a moderator or "expert." What you don't know may come back to haunt you.
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mreardon
Sep 1, 2004, 3:39 AM
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In reply to: If you haven't consulted with a lawyer specializing in outdoor liability, you may be creating a quagmire that you can't imagine.
I had so many smartass responses, but then realized that you may be legitimately concerned. Let's address it this way then, there are several outdoor publications and manufacturers of gear. They have managed without major legal counsel for the simple reason that there is personal accountability in many of these "extreme" sports. Period.
It's rockclimbing, not sidewalking. Take any advice with risk, injury is likely without proper instruction, this site is not the place for that. If you can't handle it, then I suggest toproping with a 7 point anchor while clipping bolts as you go with 46 crashpads underneath. Of course you still might break a nail. :D
So much legal advice, so little lawyers....
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