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dingus
Sep 17, 2004, 6:46 PM
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[quote="healyje"]Dingus,
I don't know how old you are, but it's not too hard to figure out you weren't climbing in the 70's.In reply to: I can't use my hands and feet to calculate how long I've been climbing anymore... I started climbing in 1973. I have been a very active climber ever since. In reply to: You mix and match decades of climbing history from different areas and from the pre-iron and iron age with the clean era with the sport era. Yes, I do that quite on purpose. It illustrates the problem with your set of ethics. Trad was not invented in the 70's, revisionisn aside. Ethics have never been static, not in the 60's, not in the 70's and certainly not now. And they were never universally adopted as you yourself pointed out. My definition of trad encompasses Steck Salathe and the Bachar Yerian, both of which ARE considered trad routes by the majority of climbers in these parts dude. DMT
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asandh
Sep 17, 2004, 6:48 PM
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:)
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dingus
Sep 17, 2004, 7:29 PM
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In reply to: Ethics in climbing is not a joke, just something that has apparantly been relegated to the past.
Nope. Ethics are alive and well in climbing, as ever. And as ever, they are elusive and a moving target.
In 1972, clean climbing was NOT trad, it was a radical departure with the past. Radical departures are not trad, by definition.
By 1992, clean climbing had become trad.
The Higgins vision of 'traditional free climbing' was not traditional when compared to climbing of the 40's, 50's and 60's, it was in fact radical. Still is for that matter. The ethical stances adopted then were as arbitrary as the ones we adopt today.
DMT
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dingus
Sep 17, 2004, 7:30 PM
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In reply to: Its like the 50 year old guy who still only listens to 70's rock and roll.
I bet that is a damned good indicator!
DMT
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healyje
Sep 17, 2004, 8:13 PM
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In reply to: Ethics in climbing are a JOKE. What happened to the renegade attitude of those who took up climbing in times past as a mode to escape the confines of an over ruled society, and do their own thing ??
Ethics were around so we could tell the real renegades who climbed with courage, abandon, and imagination from the suburban posers...
It's easier now days - in places like Red Rocks you can go up to Black Velvet canyon and see who's standing in line for their turn in the chain gang on Prince of Darkness (the only climb they'll probably do in the canyon) and those that are trad climbing up something obscure up there.
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healyje
Sep 17, 2004, 8:22 PM
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In reply to: I've often been accused by my partners of being the "ethics police". But this thread has shown me there are others who are far more accomplished at this task than me.
I couldn't give a rat's ass how you, Dingus, or anyone else climbs - but from what I've read hear don't tell me you're "trad" climbing all the time as it sounds like you're only trad climbing some fraction of the time you're on rock.
In reply to: Show me a climber who "Always" goes back to the bottom after a fall, and you've also shown me a climber who never climbs at his limit ....
You so miss the whole the point it's not really worth trying to explain it further. And, as for climbing at limits - in reality I suspect at most any of us climbs at our true peak physical limit only a couple of times in a lifetime of climbing - the rest of the time we're all really climbing at our emotional limits and 98% of time we're not falling off the rock - we're actually jumping off as the emotional stress is too much...
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brutusofwyde
Sep 17, 2004, 8:28 PM
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In reply to: The ethical stances adopted then were as arbitrary as the ones we adopt today. DMT
If you drill from an ethical stance, on lead, are you hand drilling or using a Bosch?
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dingus
Sep 17, 2004, 8:45 PM
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In reply to: I couldn't give a rat's ass how you, Dingus, or anyone else climbs - but from what I've read hear don't tell me you're "trad" climbing all the time as it sounds like you're only trad climbing some fraction of the time you're on rock.
I never said I was 'trad climbing all the time.' Nor would I even want to. Yuk! I like sport climbing too much for that. I don't think of myself as a trad climber, as I see the entire concept as too limiting and somewhat of an anachronism.
But in the end I trad far more than I sport.
DMT
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dingus
Sep 17, 2004, 8:47 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: The ethical stances adopted then were as arbitrary as the ones we adopt today. DMT If you drill from an ethical stance, on lead, are you hand drilling or using a Bosch?
Ethical stances taken around the camp fire are definitely on sight and hand drilled. Internet stances are Bosch (fast, easy, convenient and too often thoughtless!)
Headed up to Forefathers tomorrow, for some more ethical transgressions. Care to join us? Munge? You got your ears on???
DMT
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ambler
Sep 17, 2004, 8:57 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: The ethical stances adopted then were as arbitrary as the ones we adopt today. DMT If you drill from an ethical stance, on lead, are you hand drilling or using a Bosch?
http://im1.shutterfly.com/...920d6af9dd0000001610
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drake
Sep 17, 2004, 9:00 PM
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I only read the 1st page. Did not have the time the read the other 8 pages but I want to add my opinion.
Pulling on trad gear. Sitting on trad gear.
If things got desperate and it happened, well I guess it happened. But, you might want to bump it down a number grade on your next lead because you are leading over your head. You are gonna goof up one day and get hurt.
It is bad style.
It is not in the tradition of trad climbing.
If you are gonna pull on gear, don't forget to pull on that tree root too.
Don't forget to stand on your cam when you get above it.
Make sure you have your partner tension the rope after you clip your rope to it and take some weight off of your arms.
Why not traverse over to a easier nearby route?
I don't understand this topic! If you can't lead it properly, go climb something you can. Don't try to bring it down to your level. If it is not rated A0, then don't try to climb it as an A0.
The second should not be yarding on the rope and pulling on gear either. Geeze, even when I climbed sport, If I couldn't onsight it, I stuck to routes I could. If I fell, I came back later with the same mentality.
If we don't stick to our climbing ethics, climbing could become a silly ass sport that I would NOT be proud to be associated with.
Drake
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drake
Sep 17, 2004, 9:02 PM
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I only read the 1st page. Did not have the time the read the other 8 pages but I want to add my opinion.
Pulling on trad gear. Sitting on trad gear.
If things got desperate and it happened, well I guess it happened. But, you might want to bump it down a number grade on your next lead because you are leading over your head. You are gonna goof up one day and get hurt.
It is bad style.
It is not in the tradition of trad climbing.
If you are gonna pull on gear, don't forget to pull on that tree root too.
Don't forget to stand on your cam when you get above it.
Make sure you have your partner tension the rope after you clip your rope to it and take some weight off of your arms.
Why not traverse over to a easier nearby route?
I don't understand this topic! If you can't lead it properly, go climb something you can. Don't try to bring it down to your level. If it is not rated A0, then don't try to climb it as an A0.
The second should not be yarding on the rope and pulling on gear either. Geeze, even when I climbed sport, If I couldn't onsight it, I stuck to routes I could. If I fell, I came back later with the same mentality.
If we don't stick to our climbing ethics, climbing could become a silly ass sport that I would NOT be proud to be associated with.
Drake
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curt
Sep 17, 2004, 9:04 PM
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In reply to: .......If we don't stick to our climbing ethics, climbing could become a silly ass sport that I would NOT be proud to be associated with. Drake
Too late, judging from many of the posts here.
Curt
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healyje
Sep 18, 2004, 12:55 AM
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Dingus,
Don't get me wrong, I'm not blind to the context of the times we live in - while I don't much care for the proliferation of bolts and bolting (mainly because they have provided access to the masses), I do appreciate that you do haul out your rack and get on a route with it. It is sometimes just very frustrating to see/hear such confusion over what was a relatively simple, yet driving concept behind the climbing that deeply affected the lives my friends and I.
I wrote in an article once called the "Evolution of Ego in Eden" that talked about moving from [climbing] innocence to embracing and coming to terms with a high level of climbing. A quote from it goes something like, "...it took years of devotion to drugs, depravity, and an overall dedication to the desire to hurt oneself to realize climbing could be a bitch." It was a fast, steep learning curve very strictly guided by the ethics of the time and even 30 years later nothing about them feels remotely vague, fuzzy, or arbitrary...
Kudos to you and others for keeping up on trad climbing skills regardless of your definition of the ethic...
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tradmanclimbs
Sep 18, 2004, 1:40 PM
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I was on the 5th pitch (in the book but 3rd pitch the way we climbed it) Of Vertigo, cannon cliff NH last week. My feet popped off the 5.9+ crecent moon crack and left me hanging from a finger jam. Wrenched my shoulder pretty good. I popped in a cam, Clipped it and took a hang. I did not feel the least bit inclined to lower off( big joke here as after the traverse you would lower off a roof into space) pull the rope and re climb the pitch. In fact If I was with a partner that insisted on such utter stupidity it would be the last time I climbed with that misguided fool. I shook the shoulder out, got back on the climb and finished the pitch. I am certain that I will go back and climb that pitch in better style before the end of the season or next year if the shoulder, weather and partner situation don't work for this fall. I do not however feel the least bit guilty for takeing a hang. Yes I would have liked to do it without a hang, Yes I would have liked to not wrench my shoulder and while I think about it a BJ would have been nice as well. It just don't make sense on a multi pitch climb to pull your rope and go home just because of one fall and a hang. Anyone who thinks otherwise is WAY TOO STRESSED OUT ABOUT CLIMBING :shock: If you are trying to free an aid line for fame and glory obviously you must start over but that is for glory hunters and pro climbers to worry about. If you are just climbing for the fun and love of climbing, it ain't no big deal. If you make it a big deal you need to get some of those little yellow pills :twisted:
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ambler
Sep 18, 2004, 3:07 PM
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In reply to: If you are trying to free an aid line for fame and glory obviously you must start over but that is for glory hunters and pro climbers to worry about. If you are just climbing for the fun and love of climbing, it ain't no big deal. If you make it a big deal you need to get some of those little yellow pills :twisted:
Many folks on this forum don't get this point. Statements like "I climbed my first 5.11, with only 3 takes!" are quite common.
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jumpingrock
Sep 18, 2004, 5:53 PM
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In reply to: Many folks on this forum don't get this point. Statements like "I climbed my first 5.11, with only 3 takes!" are quite common.
But very accurate.
Source: The American HeritageŽ Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright Š 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
climb
\Climb\ (kl[imac]m), v. i. [imp. & p. p. Climbed (kl[imac]md), Obs. or Vulgar Clomb (kl[o^]m); p. pr. & vb. n. Climbing.] [AS. climban; akin to OHG. chlimban, G. & D. klimmen, Icel. kl[=i]fa, and E. cleave to adhere.] 1. To ascend or mount laboriously, esp. by use of the hands and feet.
2. To ascend as if with effort; to rise to a higher point.
Black vapors climb aloft, and cloud the day. --Dryden.
3. (Bot.) To ascend or creep upward by twining about a support, or by attaching itself by tendrils, rootlets, etc., to a support or upright surface.
Therefore it is obvious that regardless of how the climb is done he/she still climbed their first 5.11 with only 3 takes. Perfectly valid statement to say. Yes, there was no free climb, or red point, or pink point, or whatever nominer we choose to attach to it. The essence of climbing was still there and at the end of the day if that person had fun climbing that 5.11 and took 3 times then all the more power to them.
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ambler
Sep 18, 2004, 6:13 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Many folks on this forum don't get this point. Statements like "I climbed my first 5.11, with only 3 takes!" are quite common. But very accurate. Source: The American HeritageŽ Dictionary of the English Language,
It's not the name of the route.
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tradmanclimbs
Sep 18, 2004, 7:58 PM
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5.11 means that I get MY A$$ handed to me and follow the pitch however I can, as fast as I can. (I allways follow as fast as I can on multi pitch) On 5.11 for me this means grabbing gear, clipping gear or maby even jugging. any way i do it, if I do it quickly, safely and eficiently I am an asset to the team. My ability to follow harder than I can cleanly climb should in no way take away from the stronger leaders free accent. I can give a good belay and be a solid second. Move quickly and eficiantly but be cheating my a$$ off :lol: there have been more than a few ocasions were I have been out with a young rope gun, following way over my free climbing ability but if anything bad happened I was the one with the experience to get us through it. There is more than one way to skin a cat and as long as you are up there on a big a$$ed cliff you aint at work 8^) I don't have any problem spraying about how bad i got spanked back at the camp fire at the end of the day either. It's all in good fun :roll:
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jumpingrock
Sep 18, 2004, 9:09 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Many folks on this forum don't get this point. Statements like "I climbed my first 5.11, with only 3 takes!" are quite common. But very accurate. Source: The American HeritageŽ Dictionary of the English Language, The dictionary is clueless about what "5.11" means. Are you? It's not the name of the route.
No I am a complete retard. I have no idea what 5.11 is. Please educate me. In fact while you are at it can you please explain what this climbing thing is? I mean heck can't you just walk up the back?
What a pathetic post.
Obviously I know what 5.11 is. It is an arbitrary (based losely on difficulty) rating of a climb. Given to it by the person who first free climbed it. Therefore, that route will always be 5.11 no matter how I choose to haul my fat ass up it. And if I bring my fat ass from the bottom of that 5.11 to the top using whichever means I find neccesary I will still have climbed that 5.11. Of course I may not have been particularly ethical about it, but I still climbed it and nobody can take that away from me.
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curt
Sep 18, 2004, 10:18 PM
Post #146 of 217
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Many folks on this forum don't get this point. Statements like "I climbed my first 5.11, with only 3 takes!" are quite common. But very accurate. Source: The American HeritageŽ Dictionary of the English Language, The dictionary is clueless about what "5.11" means. Are you? It's not the name of the route. Please educate me.
At least you, ambler and I can all agree on those points. So, we have someplace to start.
In reply to: In fact while you are at it can you please explain what this climbing thing is? I mean heck can't you just walk up the back? What a pathetic post. Obviously I know what 5.11 is.
No, you have obviously proven that you don't know what 5.11 means.
In reply to: It is an arbitrary (based losely on difficulty) rating of a climb. Given to it by the person who first free climbed it.
Not necessarily. The rating is not "arbitrary" and is completely based on difficulty. Additionally, the rating of a climb is generally a consensus of opinion, and not up to the person who first climbed it. Unless, of course, no one else has yet repeated the climb.
In reply to: Therefore, that route will always be 5.11 no matter how I choose to haul my fat ass up it. And if I bring my fat ass from the bottom of that 5.11 to the top using whichever means I find neccesary I will still have climbed that 5.11.
Wrong, and stating that you "did this 5.11" would make you a liar. 5.11 is a difficulty designation for a free climb. If you had 3 takes, you didn't free climb the route and you therefore didn't do a 5.11, sorry. As ambler said, perhaps you did a 5.9 A0 or something similar. You most assuredly did not do a 5.11, however.
In reply to: Of course I may not have been particularly ethical about it, but I still climbed it and nobody can take that away from me.
Well, nobody can take something away from you that you never had, that's for sure.
Curt
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pico23
Sep 19, 2004, 2:39 AM
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[quote="curt"][quote="asandh"]curt wrote:In reply to: In reply to: or I choose to climb it in 3 pitches of 60 ft each or I choose to climb it in 6 pitches of 30 ft each at which point am I aid climbing ? :D Or, why not then 180 "pitches" of one foot each, with a hang between each of them? Is that still free climbing? Curt
So if you link two pitches together do you get some sort of gold star? :wink:
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curt
Sep 19, 2004, 2:46 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: or I choose to climb it in 3 pitches of 60 ft each or I choose to climb it in 6 pitches of 30 ft each at which point am I aid climbing ? :D Or, why not then 180 "pitches" of one foot each, with a hang between each of them? Is that still free climbing? Curt So if you link two pitches together do you get some sort of gold star? :wink:
Yes, then you have actually done the route.
Curt
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pico23
Sep 19, 2004, 2:49 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Many folks on this forum don't get this point. Statements like "I climbed my first 5.11, with only 3 takes!" are quite common. But very accurate. Source: The American HeritageŽ Dictionary of the English Language, The dictionary is clueless about what "5.11" means. Are you? It's not the name of the route. Please educate me. At least you, ambler and I can all agree on those points. So, we have someplace to start. In reply to: In fact while you are at it can you please explain what this climbing thing is? I mean heck can't you just walk up the back? What a pathetic post. Obviously I know what 5.11 is.No, you have obviously proven that you don't know what 5.11 means. In reply to: It is an arbitrary (based losely on difficulty) rating of a climb. Given to it by the person who first free climbed it. Not necessarily. The rating is not "arbitrary" and is completely based on difficulty. Additionally, the rating of a climb is generally a consensus of opinion, and not up to the person who first climbed it. Unless, of course, no one else has yet repeated the climb. In reply to: Therefore, that route will always be 5.11 no matter how I choose to haul my fat ass up it. And if I bring my fat ass from the bottom of that 5.11 to the top using whichever means I find neccesary I will still have climbed that 5.11.Wrong, and stating that you "did this 5.11" would make you a liar. 5.11 is a difficulty designation for a free climb. If you had 3 takes, you didn't free climb the route and you therefore didn't do a 5.11, sorry. As ambler said, perhaps you did a 5.9 A0 or something similar. You most assuredly did not do a 5.11, however. In reply to: Of course I may not have been particularly ethical about it, but I still climbed it and nobody can take that away from me. Well, nobody can take something away from you that you never had, that's for sure. Curt
This post is exactly why my ethics are so anal retentive. I've watched too many people tell me they did this or that and ultimately they didn't do anything.
I've long since realized not everyone needs to see my ethics as I do but it's sad that climbing for a large portion of the newer climbers has become nothing more than a giant tick list and race for #'s. this guy is a good example of that with his "I got to the top of a 5.11 so clearly I climbed it." if your style is bad enough you might as well just walk up the backside and mark it off in the guidebook as another tick.
The bottom line is as someone said, a top rope is "a crutch" and I believe that no one actually climbed anything without "a crutch" as a second since I know that "the crutch" can offer tension and assistance to help the second up the climb.
therefore a second can use a crutch that offers assistance (but not "aid").
Praise to god, I've seen the light.
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pico23
Sep 19, 2004, 2:55 AM
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[quote="curt"]In reply to: In reply to: Of course I may not have been particularly ethical about it, but I still climbed it and nobody can take that away from me. Well, nobody can take something away from you that you never had, that's for sure. Curt
:shock: :roll: :lol:
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