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mikeasca
Sep 11, 2004, 2:47 AM
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Lets see if anybody knows the truth. Who invented the cam.
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bobd1953
Sep 11, 2004, 2:50 AM
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I could be wrong but...George Lowe who I think saw/got the idea on a climbing trip to Russia.
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masterjuggler41
Sep 11, 2004, 2:51 AM
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Leonardo Da Vinci? he invented everything else.
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curt
Sep 11, 2004, 2:56 AM
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In reply to: Lets see if anybody knows the truth. Who invented the cam.
If you mean a climbing cam, the answer is Abalakov. He was the first to notice that a section of a logarithmic spiral has a constant expansion angle--and then applied that to climbing gear.
Curt
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jerrygarcia
Sep 11, 2004, 3:11 AM
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[edit]
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oklahoma
Sep 11, 2004, 3:59 AM
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man, I don't know shit about shit but that was a damn good answer.
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gentry
Sep 11, 2004, 4:12 AM
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ray jardine
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noshoesnoshirt
Sep 11, 2004, 4:12 AM
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Theodorus' spiral very closely approximates the logarithmic spiral. Fibonacci was one of the earliest mathematicians to discern the shape of the logarithmic spiral, but Descartes is widely credited with its discovery.
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opusxxii
Sep 11, 2004, 4:36 AM
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Gabe Walker, duh.
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cgailey
Sep 11, 2004, 5:14 AM
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I'm guessing by your question..."see if anyone knows the truth"...that it's not Jardine...
My ears are open..
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southernmtguide
Sep 11, 2004, 2:12 PM
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The Wild Country Cam booklet that was published last year puts a fairly biased and one side version of the history of "camming devices" out. :roll:
If one reads that and that alone, one would assume, incoreectly, that Ray Jardine, and Wild Country are responsible for what we all take for granted.
Dig a little deeper and ask the right people, and one will find that the truth is out there. Try googling Greg Lowe, Summit Magazine articles, and lawsuit settlements and one shall be enlightened. :wink:
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reprieve
Sep 11, 2004, 2:56 PM
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Well, from what I could dig up, it looks like Greg Lowe (who I'm guessing is also the Greg Lowe of Lowe Alpine) did have the idea of using cam-shaped pro first. However, his invention was a passive-pro cam (tricams). It seems like Ray Jardine gets to keep his credit for inventing the SLCD.
And, holy shit.... http://www.mtntools.com/...eum/images/02_02.jpg
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edge
Sep 11, 2004, 3:34 PM
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In terms of cams relevent to climbing applications, Curt has the correct answer. He beat me to it.
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dredsovrn
Sep 11, 2004, 4:14 PM
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Wasn't it Al Gore? I mean, he invented the internet too. Right? :lol:
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mikeasca
Sep 11, 2004, 4:33 PM
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Greg Lowe is the correct answer. He had the first prototype and the first pantent on the slcd then he showed it to ray. Greg also designed the new omega link cam. I got to play with one of the prototypes and about shat myself.
They make all other cams worthless.
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edge
Sep 11, 2004, 5:13 PM
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Nope, Abalakov. The original question was about cams, not slcd
http://www.bigwalls.net/climb/mechadv/
After an incomparable career of first ascents dating from the 1930s in the various mountain ranges of the USSR, Vitaly Abalakov devoted his life to mountaineering instruction, equipment design, and the promotion of international good will for mountain climbing. Scrounging surplus aircraft materials, he made a variety of innovative tools, including the first hauling pulley, the first adjustable tube chock, inventive rope clamps, titanium pitons and crampons, retrievable ice screws, and the V-thread rappel anchor (not, strictly speaking, a mechanical device, but nonetheless an ice-climbing breakthrough). His invention of the Abalakov Cam was the first application to climbing of the principle of a constant-angle curved surface, with a cam shape based on the mathematical logarithmic spiral. Designed so that a load produces a rotational force, the logarithmic cam shape allowed for a single device to fit in a range of crack sizes without a change in the loading pattern, making it predictable and stable. Abalakov shared his ideas with the world, and freely distributed information on their design and construction.
In 1973 Greg Lowe filed for a patent for a sprung loaded version of the Abalakov Cam, manufactured some workable single cam units, and equipped his brother Jeff, who rapidly scooped some of the finest long routes in Zion National Park, notorious for its hard-to-protect parallel-sided cracks. These early single cam units had an elongated 30 degree camming angle, which provided limited stability, and their use never became widespread. In 1977 Ray Jardine climbed the Phoenix, Yosemite's first 5.13, with a new secret weapon. With an engineer's understanding of the principles of force and friction, Ray designed a sprung loaded opposing multiple cam unit with a more stable 15 degree camming angle and an innovative triggering mechanism. He kept his "Friends" cloaked in secrecy before his patent in 1978, and Yosemite was rife with rumors of Jardine's devices allowing for effortless protection placement on hard free routes. Before the commercial availability of Friends, a lucky inner circle of wall rats were able to buy his initial limited production of the innovative tools in the Camp 4 parking lot, and subsequently saved vast amounts of energy expenditure on the taxing big walls.
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grayhghost
Sep 11, 2004, 5:34 PM
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Your reference failed to note
that Ray Jardine manufactured
the Phoenix before he deamed
it Yosemite's first 5.13.
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cgailey
Sep 11, 2004, 6:07 PM
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Wow, this is so informative...I love history lessons! :D
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mikeasca
Sep 12, 2004, 2:02 AM
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Then why did greg win a lawsuit agnist wild country over the slcd?
Because thats what he showed ray but it dident have a trigger on it yet.
cams=slcd thats what we are talking about.
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jc5462
Sep 12, 2004, 2:47 AM
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If memory and sorting stories goes good: The patent for the CAM is/was held by Nautilus (AKA, the fitness machine people) and that Greg Lowe eventually won the case on the SLCD. However the early Lowe Cams were 2 cams on the same side and a pair of shaft/handles which webbing was tied into to clip to (I actually have one in my collection). Ray Jardine is the inventor of the "Freind" as we now know and Jardines SLCD had 2 pair of opposible cams with a ridged stem and trigger. Wild Country went to great lengths to keep anyone from making SLCDs for many years. Their patent was on the ridged stem and trigger of the original "Freind". This is why you see most other cams with flexible shafts and different triggers. There are some copies of these cams around which were stopped due to patent issues (HB, Kong and a Korean knock-off called Camrades) If you notice there are some existing cams which have unique patented fetures and they are not duplicated: CCH Aliens with internal springs, BD Camalot with the double axle and Splitter Gears Bi-Cam. I also remember hearing around that Jardine offered his new device to Forrest Mountaineering, but they could not work out the profit percentages and he took it to Wild Country and the rest is as they say HISTORY. If you want an interesting find look at the HB Fix from years ago (Ridged stem unit with a split butterfly trigger) or the CMI Roc-Jox (single lobe cam)
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edge
Sep 12, 2004, 2:49 AM
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"Alex, I'll buy a clue for $500"...
SLCD= Spring Loaded Camming Device.
Lowe was the first with the spring loaded, but the original freakin question was about the "Cam".
.In reply to: Lets see if anybody knows the truth. Who invented the cam.
ABALAKOV!!!
The next time you play trivia, make sure you know what you are talking about, or at the very least, phrase it correctly. You did neither in this case
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curt
Sep 14, 2004, 12:55 AM
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In reply to: Greg Lowe is the correct answer. He had the first prototype and the first pantent on the slcd then he showed it to ray. Greg also designed the new omega link cam. I got to play with one of the prototypes and about shat myself. They make all other cams worthless.
As edge has pointed out, Greg Lowe is not the correct answer to the question you actually asked. If you wanted to know who first invented the SLCD then you should have asked that question.
And no: Cam does not = SLCD.
Curt
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dietzpa
Sep 14, 2004, 1:39 AM
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I think it is pretty obvious that the ONLY person who could have Possibly invented the cam is........
MCGUYVER
In short, you are all entirely wrong.
thank you, and goodnight.
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jc5462
Sep 14, 2004, 4:19 AM
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But in this case because we are not all sitting in the same room talking it is easy to have a difference in terminology. This is a climbing discussion group and to many climbers sitting around talking about "cams" they might be thinking "SLCD". A car nut might be thinking Engine cams, and the Patent holder might be thinking the working mechanism of their workout equipment. So if I was to ask you for a nut, what would you give me? (A BD #7 stopper, A 1/2" course tread machine nut, A Pecan or one of your testicles). Any one of us needs to realize there are different terminologies used in different social circles and also different locations. I recently did a search and rescue demonstration and a fellow rescuer asked if we needed any more "Biners" sent up, We were teaching these kids how to rappel He then realized that there where many Hispanic kids in the group watching (just think of the sound of that to someone watching who does not know that is slang for carabiner). This is a great forum, I enjoy the discussions but we all need to relax as in this format it is easy to be misunderstood and very easy to ruffle anyones feathers. I personally took no ofense by your comments, but just want to explain why myself and others may have misunderstood and not given the answer you were seeking.
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brianinslc
Sep 15, 2004, 8:11 PM
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In reply to: ABALAKOV!!! The next time you play trivia, make sure you know what you are talking about, or at the very least, phrase it correctly. You did neither in this case
I just chatted with Greg Lowe a couple weeks ago (at the OP booth, OR show). Said Middendorf got the history of the logrithmic spiral and Abalakov wrong (which I was always curious about). I think he mentioned that Jeff took a Lowe cam to the USSR on one of his climber exchanges. Anyhoo, Greg said that the cam the Abalakov cam up with was basically a pulley cut in half with a cord attached. No logrithmic spiral involved.
I think Lowe produced not only two prong spring-loaded cams, but, also 4 lobed ones (gear nut Marty has a picture of them...amongst others...which he had Greg sign...too funny).
So, in my mind, as far as active cams, spring-loaded and of the logrithmic spiral type, Lowe gets credit for the invention and has the patent.
Another interesting point I'd always wondered about, was, did the "v-thread" or "Abalakov" ice hourglass come from the USSR to the US, or, vice versa. Greg said Jeff took it there....
As far as passive cams? Geez...probably used by someone climbing grit stone in the UK back in the 1800's...
FWIW...
Brian in SLC
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curt
Sep 16, 2004, 3:23 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: ABALAKOV!!! The next time you play trivia, make sure you know what you are talking about, or at the very least, phrase it correctly. You did neither in this case I just chatted with Greg Lowe a couple weeks ago (at the OP booth, OR show). Said Middendorf got the history of the logrithmic spiral and Abalakov wrong (which I was always curious about). I think he mentioned that Jeff took a Lowe cam to the USSR on one of his climber exchanges. Anyhoo, Greg said that the cam the Abalakov cam up with was basically a pulley cut in half with a cord attached. No logrithmic spiral involved.
I question that version of events, only because I remember seeing an article about the Abalakov cams in th late 70s--that was already an old article at that time. The photos of the Abalakov cams were indeed logrithmic spirals and the text described them as such.
Now I only wish I could remember exactly where that article appeared.
Curt
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chads93gt
Sep 16, 2004, 4:35 AM
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Henry Ford.
either that or it was that guy from Europe. . . . .
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edge
Sep 16, 2004, 1:11 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: ABALAKOV!!! The next time you play trivia, make sure you know what you are talking about, or at the very least, phrase it correctly. You did neither in this case I just chatted with Greg Lowe a couple weeks ago (at the OP booth, OR show). Said Middendorf got the history of the logrithmic spiral and Abalakov wrong (which I was always curious about). I think he mentioned that Jeff took a Lowe cam to the USSR on one of his climber exchanges. Anyhoo, Greg said that the cam the Abalakov cam up with was basically a pulley cut in half with a cord attached. No logrithmic spiral involved. I question that version of events, only because I remember seeing an article about the Abalakov cams in th late 70s--that was already an old article at that time. The photos of the Abalakov cams were indeed logrithmic spirals and the text described them as such. Now I only wish I could remember exactly where that article appeared. Curt
I have seen the old Abalakov cams and they were indeed logarythmic spirals.
The article that Curt is referring to is "Abalakov Cams" in the February 1978 issue of "Off Belay", or possibly the February 1976 article "CCCP Spells Friendship". In the 1978 article, the author duplicated the Abalakov cams and made his own, which look very much like tri-cams. It is interesting that the article states "It would be difficult to set up a high production manufacturing operation to produce Abalakov cams, so it is unlikely that they will ever be available commercially." Riiiight...
For what it is worth, Abalakov was active in the thirties, so I doubt that he got the idea for the V thread or the cam from Lowe.
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gambler
Sep 16, 2004, 2:47 PM
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In reply to: I think it is pretty obvious that the ONLY person who could have Possibly invented the cam is........ MCGUYVER In short, you are all entirely wrong. thank you, and goodnight.
That MacGuyver dude was a hellova climber,he may not have invented the cam but I think he invented the stick-clip :wink:
Did anybody see that episode when MacGuyver was climbing at Squamish with a girl and she took a big whipper and her harness ripped out,falling to her death(he really blew it,why didnt he invent something to save her in mid-fall).
Trivia...did he have a first name at all?I dont ever remember them using it!
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curt
Sep 16, 2004, 4:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: ABALAKOV!!! The next time you play trivia, make sure you know what you are talking about, or at the very least, phrase it correctly. You did neither in this case I just chatted with Greg Lowe a couple weeks ago (at the OP booth, OR show). Said Middendorf got the history of the logrithmic spiral and Abalakov wrong (which I was always curious about). I think he mentioned that Jeff took a Lowe cam to the USSR on one of his climber exchanges. Anyhoo, Greg said that the cam the Abalakov cam up with was basically a pulley cut in half with a cord attached. No logrithmic spiral involved. I question that version of events, only because I remember seeing an article about the Abalakov cams in th late 70s--that was already an old article at that time. The photos of the Abalakov cams were indeed logrithmic spirals and the text described them as such. Now I only wish I could remember exactly where that article appeared. Curt I have seen the old Abalakov cams and they were indeed logarythmic spirals. The article that Curt is referring to is "Abalakov Cams" in the February 1978 issue of "Off Belay", or possibly the February 1976 article "CCCP Spells Friendship". In the 1978 article, the author duplicated the Abalakov cams and made his own, which look very much like tri-cams. It is interesting that the article states "It would be difficult to set up a high production manufacturing operation to produce Abalakov cams, so it is unlikely that they will ever be available commercially." Riiiight... For what it is worth, Abalakov was active in the thirties, so I doubt that he got the idea for the V thread or the cam from Lowe.
Thanks edge,
It was the 1978 article because I now remember that its topic was about the author making his own cams based on Abalakov's design.
Curt
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edge
Sep 16, 2004, 4:30 PM
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Yeah, and how anal am I to still have the mag and dig it out? Actually, I wrote a few pieces for Off Belay in the late 70's when I was in high school, and used them later to test out of my college English Comp class.
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ben87
Sep 16, 2004, 5:47 PM
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Maybe Ray Jardine is the Christopher Columbus of cams.
far from the first person to get there, but the one who really blew the whole thing wide open.
(and that's where the metphor ends-- I'm not trying to get into a debate about "discovering" the western hemisphere, columbus, etc)
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brianinslc
Sep 17, 2004, 4:44 PM
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Hey, lets poke at this a tad...
In reply to: The article that Curt is referring to is "Abalakov Cams" in the February 1978 issue of "Off Belay", or possibly the February 1976 article "CCCP Spells Friendship". In the 1978 article, the author duplicated the Abalakov cams and made his own, which look very much like tri-cams. It is interesting that the article states "It would be difficult to set up a high production manufacturing operation to produce Abalakov cams, so it is unlikely that they will ever be available commercially."
Article in '76 was based on a trip the Soviet climbers took to the US in 1975. This was AFTER a trip of US climbers in 1974 to the USSR (seem to recall another prior to that?) . Greg claimed (and I may have this slightly wrong, pardon the lack of a tape recorder and my bad memory) that Jeff took a Lowe cam to the exchange in '74. Then, when the Soviets came over in '75, folks drooled over all the Abalakov inventions...which, were pretty cool. Comment in the article about the jumar was kinda funny. Anyhoo...see pic below:
http://mtncommunity.org/dc/user_files/604.jpg
You can see from the picture, that the Abalakov cam is there....and...right next to it, is a modified Forrest Foxhead. So, did Abalakov invent Foxheads? Nah. Did he perhaps run with the Lowe cam idea he saw in '74 and make some passive cams? I dunno. Maybe?
From the '78 article...
http://mtncommunity.org/dc/user_files/605.jpg
Anyone know if the Abalakov cams were in use prior to '74? Anyone know when the Lowe Tricam patent came out?
I think Greg was using his spring-loaded cams in the late 60's, or there abouts (in the City of Rocks, Idaho). Early 70's no doubt. Supercrack in '76.
Great history. Kinda muddy.
As I perused the old Off Belays...noted an article on Yosemite by bvb...too funny...
Brian in SLC
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edge
Sep 17, 2004, 5:09 PM
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Great response, Brian. Too bad I used up all of my "rate this post" earlier, next time I get to vote I'll come back and give you a thumbs up for this one.
Abalakov died in 1987, so I guess if he did expand on Lowe's idea, he did it late in life. Totally possible.
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curt
Sep 17, 2004, 5:16 PM
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Yeah, nice post Brian. Didn't you see anything in either of those articles that mentioned when Abalakov began using his cams?
Curt
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brianinslc
Sep 17, 2004, 5:23 PM
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In reply to: Abalakov died in 1987, so I guess if he did expand on Lowe's idea, he did it late in life. Totally possible.
Thanks!
As the kids say (probably last summer...), "mad props" to Vitaly. Be neat to see a book (in English!) on his life/climbing career. Really the father of Soviet climbing. Feller had a long and amazing run. Almost surprised there isn't one out there...(maybe there is?).
Was an interesting conversation with Greg. He was adamant that Middendorf, in the Ascent article, had gotton the history of the cam wrong.
One thing that was apparent to me, in reading about the climber's exchange here in the US in '75, was that Vitaly wasn't quick to dismiss a good idea (hence the jumar comment, where he chastised one of his own for dissing them before he tried them). Inovator, for sure. Even late (relatively speaking, especially "back then) in life.
Not that maybe the US climbers didn't take something from the Soviets, either. Latok Ti pitons?
I kinda miss them ol' Off Belays...was neat to peruse through them... Was kinda cool how much semi unbiased product testing and review was done in each or every other issue. Lots of busting of gear, new knots, new techniques. I see a bit of that in some of the newer Rock and Ice stuff with DR's testing. Good direction.
Fun...
Brian in SLC
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brianinslc
Sep 17, 2004, 5:28 PM
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In reply to: Didn't you see anything in either of those articles that mentioned when Abalakov began using his cams?
I didn't, and I looked pretty closely...but...who knows? Kind of expect to see someone from the former Soviet Union pipe up about using those things back in the 50's or something... But, like I said, Greg kinda dissed the Abalakov cams as just being cut up pulleys that came here after his cam went over there. So, dunno.
Tricams looks just like the Abalakov cams. Patent history is probably out there. That'd be interesting (at least a data point).
A Lowe cam is high on my list of "wants"....!
Cheers,
Brian in SLC
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edge
Sep 17, 2004, 5:41 PM
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SMC also came out with the "Camlock" sometime around the late 70's as well. I bootied this one off of some fist crack. Who fixes one of these in a fist crack? It took me all of 30 seconds to pull out, although it didn't see too much time on my rack.
Bottom center, green sling.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=15110
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robbovius
Sep 17, 2004, 6:17 PM
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y'know, looking at the picture of those abakolov cams, I can remember seeing a set of wired "tricams" on ebay, back around last february that looked pretty much identical in shape and curvature to the pics in that old mag article...I recall several of the MASS CLIMBERS commenting on how they looked like crap, and I can recall myself commenting on how they loked like sectioned industrial pulleys ;-)
...how 'bout that?
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g-funk
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Sep 17, 2004, 6:18 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I think it is pretty obvious that the ONLY person who could have Possibly invented the cam is........ MCGUYVER In short, you are all entirely wrong. thank you, and goodnight. That MacGuyver dude was a hellova climber,he may not have invented the cam but I think he invented the stick-clip :wink: Did anybody see that episode when MacGuyver was climbing at Squamish with a girl and she took a big whipper and her harness ripped out,falling to her death(he really blew it,why didnt he invent something to save her in mid-fall). Trivia...did he have a first name at all?I dont ever remember them using it!
MacGuyver's first name was Angus! Don't you remember from the episode where he got hit in the head by a falling object on the street, and in a fit of unconciousness traveled back in time to King Arthur's court. Anyway, he hooked up with Merlin and made a Ben Franklin action kite, and used electricity to blast his way out of prison and at the same time found the dead body of his great, great, great, great. . . . .great grandfather Angus MacGuver from whom both family names originally sprang.
Lowe, and that Russian dude could have learned a lot from MacGuyver.
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yosemite
Sep 17, 2004, 6:20 PM
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Edge,
I have a couple of the SMC Camlocks as well. I think I got them around 1974. I graduated from college that year and then left the USofA for about 3 years. I remember them from my pre-expat days but could be wrong.
If you take a Camlock and hold it next to a Camalot, you will see that the cam curves are identical.
Gene
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punkrawkclimber
Sep 17, 2004, 6:21 PM
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Fibbonachi was a cheap bastard!!!
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brianinslc
Sep 17, 2004, 6:21 PM
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In reply to: reference above photo
Whats the green shoe? PA?
Nice Titon.
CMI had a cam of sorts, too, along those lines, come along in around '79 or so?
Good ol' gear...
-Brian in SLC
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edge
Sep 17, 2004, 6:30 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: reference above photo Whats the green shoe? PA?
It's a Dolomite GB. I bought it in Cham in 1985 when I forgot my Fires back in the States. The rubber sucked, and the fit was horrible, but it was the only model in town that came in my size 12 shoe size.
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rockitjeff
Sep 18, 2004, 3:04 AM
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brian- i think the cmi cams actually came out b4 the smc's...
i recall using one in an aid placement . fall of '76?
single lobe = very narrow; very tippy... but hey. innovation, no straight lines, etc
and me being a newbie, i bought a full rack of those damned smc cams
(they came out maybe winter of '76? they went well with my titons, foxheads and... remember some wierd rounded, 8 sided hex-replacements from britan? forget if they were moacs or what...
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mikeasca
Sep 21, 2004, 3:42 AM
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Wow! surprised someone had the facts nice post brian.
cams, slcd, fcu, tcu, all thanks to greg lowe.
brian I owe you some beer you won the quiz.
What did you think of the new link cams?
mike
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brianinslc
Sep 21, 2004, 2:15 PM
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In reply to: Wow! surprised someone had the facts nice post brian. cams, slcd, fcu, tcu, all thanks to greg lowe. brian I owe you some beer you won the quiz. What did you think of the new link cams? mike
Nah...put the beer money in the rebolt can! And...I think the jury is still out on when the Abalakov cams first appeared. Who knows?
Link cams? Well...version two looked a lot better than the first proto they had. Lighter, way less moving parts. But...I think kinda heavy still, lots of moving parts (prone to sucking up a bunch of sand, dirt, etc), limited ap.
So, seems to be coming along, but, I can't imagine they'll ever be super popular. Maybe for someone who needs one size for a climb, but, that's pretty rare. Be fun to play with one a bit more than in the booth, though. Range is pretty impressive. But, so is how long it gets strung out. Might be real prone to gettin' stuck? Dunno.
-Brian in SLC
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numbnut
Sep 21, 2004, 3:50 PM
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Did inventing the cam make Ray Jardine rich?
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dingus
Sep 21, 2004, 3:52 PM
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In reply to: Did inventing the cam make Ray Jardine rich?
Yes.
DMT
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bengt
Sep 27, 2004, 5:16 AM
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Can anyone tell me of any articles or books that describe the progression of climbing gear from the early pitons and nuts to today's equipment. I am writing a report on the development of climbing gear for an engineering class. Thanks.
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curt
Sep 27, 2004, 8:11 PM
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In reply to: Can anyone tell me of any articles or books that describe the progression of climbing gear from the early pitons and nuts to today's equipment. I am writing a report on the development of climbing gear for an engineering class. Thanks.
Don't forget the part about the Ford model "A" axles. Good stuff.
Curt
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abissonade
Sep 27, 2004, 8:30 PM
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Interesting question, interesting answers. Looks like many of you forget that the early days of climbing were in Europe, and not so much the US.
I do not know who invented the cam, but it must be some of these good old names that are famous in the Alps, like W. Bonatti, T. Hiebeler, and so on.
But, my feeling is, a special cam, the friend was invented in the US. ... and I love it the most.
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kostik
Aug 10, 2005, 3:22 PM
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Interesting topic. There were two Abalakov brothers: Evgeny:
http://www.skitalets.ru/...otaev/risunok042.jpg
http://www.stolby.ru/...osh/abalakov_evg.jpg
and Vitaly:
http://www.stolby.ru/Mat/Gubanov/1/148.jpg
http://www.baurock.ru/history/abalakov.jpg
Evgeny became famous as a mountaineer after summitting Pik Kommunizma 7 495 m. After WWII he declared that he was launching expeditions to K2 and Everest. In March 1948, soon after his Everest proposal, he and another mountaineer were found dead in a bathroom. Apparently, the fire was accidentally extinguished in the water heater and they got poisoned by gas.
Vitaly is known as an inventor of a number of things, including the aforementioned camming device. He also proposed the acclimatization procedure still used by Russian climbers. It is said that Vitaly was jealous of Evgeny's glory and was an overall unsavory person. Nevertheless, he led Soviet mountaineering organization for decades and organized a number of successful expeditions.
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cervicornis
Sep 29, 2005, 6:54 AM
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Lowe's patent issued in April, 1975 (#3,877,679) and Jardine's issued in January, 1980 (#4,184,657)...
You can view both patents, as well as many, many others on camming devices by visting www.uspto.gov.
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healyje
Sep 29, 2005, 7:58 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: reference above photo Whats the green shoe? PA? Nice Titon. CMI had a cam of sorts, too, along those lines, come along in around '79 or so? Good ol' gear... -Brian in SLC
I'm with Curt and my vote goes to Abalakov.
The CMI "Swivel of Death" cam came out in the mid-70's and sucked beyond all comprehension - dangerous as far as we were concerned. They made the SMC Camlocks seem functionally elegant by comparison and they SUCKED BIG TIME (but still look cool)!!!! Titons? Still love'm and climb with a #8 sewn on a shoulder sling every now and then...
[and p.s. hold that camlock up against a real cam lobe again and you'll see they are not the same, but that the camlock flattens out quite prematurely...]
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t-dog
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Sep 29, 2005, 8:27 AM
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In reply to: In March 1948, soon after his Everest proposal, he and another mountaineer were found dead in a bathroom. Apparently, the fire was accidentally extinguished in the water heater and they got poisoned by gas.
Rrrrriiiiiggghhhtttt.....
Sounds more like a cover-up for some torrid mountaineering love affair to me than a pilot flame going out.... :o
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superbum
Oct 11, 2005, 1:41 AM
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READ:
http://www.needlesports.com/nutsmuseum/nutsmuseum.htm
great history here....Lots of Pics too!
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argonaut
Aug 17, 2006, 8:56 AM
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The "Friends" were originally created, designed, developed and initially produced by Forrest Mountaineering in the early 1970's, about 2-3 years before we gave them to Ray who then took them to "Wild Country" The very first ones we built were the #2 and #3 sizes that we used on the first attempt to climb the "Nose" in under 24 hours. The following year we had designed the full range of "Friends" that spanned from 3/4" to 4". This is obviously a late posting but it came up on a Google search. Bill Forrest and myself were co-owners of "Forrest Mountaineering". The article "Climbing Friends" written for Stephane Pennequin's "Nuts Story" details the history of the "Friends" and is available on request.
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solutionpocket
Aug 18, 2006, 1:14 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Can anyone tell me of any articles or books that describe the progression of climbing gear from the early pitons and nuts to today's equipment. I am writing a report on the development of climbing gear for an engineering class. Thanks. Don't forget the part about the Ford model "A" axles. Good stuff. Curt
Model "A" axles...
I guess you could say that Ray Jardine is the Henry Ford of SLCDs. He didn't invent them, but he certainly was the catalyst of their popularity.
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brianinslc
Aug 22, 2006, 4:05 PM
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In reply to: The "Friends" were originally created, designed, developed and initially produced by Forrest Mountaineering in the early 1970's...
And...who was it that coined the word, "friends"?
Pretty cool!
Neat history.
That website (where the article resides) is amazing.
Cheers!
-Brian in SLC
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dynoho
Aug 22, 2006, 5:37 PM
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My Guess....
A crustacean called Nautilus.
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krusher4
Aug 22, 2006, 7:54 PM
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In reply to: Greg Lowe is the correct answer. He had the first prototype and the first pantent on the slcd then he showed it to ray. Greg also designed the new omega link cam. I got to play with one of the prototypes and about shat myself. They make all other cams worthless.
I have never heard of Greg showing the cam to Ray but there are quite a few problems with the New Omega's so I dont know about making all others worthless.
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argonaut
Aug 24, 2006, 5:39 PM
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An excerpt from "Climbing Friends" gives the origin of the naming of the "Friends"
The christening of our “Friends” happened one afternoon on our way to a front range climbing area. Secrecy was always a concern during the development stages so it was always essential to be careful and guarded when we were discussing the cam devices in public places. While having lunch at a small café, we began referring to them with the code word “Friends” and it was immediately obvious that we had stumbled onto some marketing “Devine Inspiration”. Before we had finished the meal, we had penned a number of advertising slogans with the newfound name.
I get high with a little help from my “Friends”. (Borrowed from the Beetles.)
Who are your best “Friends”?
Are your “Friends” rock solid?
I have “Friends” in high places.
And my personal favorite, A “Friend” will never let you down.
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cracklover
Aug 24, 2006, 6:20 PM
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Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear - I meant the idea for the design.
GO
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argonaut
Aug 24, 2006, 6:39 PM
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My apologies please, I was trying to respond to "brianinslc posted 22 August 2006 16:05" I can email you "Climbing Friends" as an attachment if you send me your Edress, thanks.
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brianinslc
Aug 24, 2006, 6:39 PM
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In reply to: Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear - I meant the idea for the design.
This may be totally off, or rumor, or conjecture, or whatever. But...here's the story I heard from Greg. He showed his cam over dinner with Bill and Ray. Greg also disputes that the idea for constant cam angle and logrithmic spiral came from Russia, but, went to the USSR on a Soviet sponsered climbing exchange with Jeff (along with their idea on an ice hour glass v-thread, which apparently came back to the US with the Soviet climbers on a later US sponsered climbing exchange, henceforth to be called the "Abalakov"). If you look through old Summit magazines from back then, there's a bunch of pictures of Abalakov cam designs that the Soviet climbers were using that looked basicially like cut up pulleys, but, the date of the article was post the US trip over there. I think I posted some pictures of it on this site somewhere...
Anyhoo, dunno if that's the case or not, but, its what Greg told me. I'm not totally sure of the outcome of the patent infringement deal between folks, but, I think Greg made out ok with that situation.
Marty, the infamous gear collector from Arizona was also around during this conversation, and he was psyched to chat with Greg as he had some photo's of Gregs L.A.S. cams he wanted (and got) Greg to sign. At least four different designs in his collection, some 4 cam units.
I think Greg was playing with these cams at least by the late 60's or so. Didn't get a patent until, what, 73 (applied for in 72?). L.A.S. used in the FA of Supercrack in Indian Creek. In the Stewart Green photo of Ed Webster on that route, you can clearly see the cam hanging from him (along with a caption on some of the photo's that no cam's were used!).
Interesting stuff. Be neat to set down the players and discuss this old history!
Anyhoo, FWIW, and, again, not sure the accuracy of the above, as my memory is hazy and adult beverages may have been involved in the discussions...
Edited to add:
Greg Lowe: filed for cam patent 8/16/1973. Granted 4/15/1975.
Ray Jardine: filed for cam patent 5/30/1978. Granted 1/22/80.
Patent pending wild country cam (doesn't say wild country on it, just "friend" and patent pending):
http://mtncommunity.org/dc/user_files/1172.jpg
Still in use!
-Brian in SLC
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bpal
Nov 3, 2006, 5:26 PM
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Really fun topic! I'm looking forward to getting a copy of "Climbing Friends". Some Russian friends are trying to track down the historical developments on that side. I know it isn't constant angle, but Titons and Hexentrics definitely had some cruder camming involved and preceded these, didn't they? I remember going to Forrest in Denver with Jimmie Dunn in early 1977 - I had heard Jimmie tell me of Ray's devices where you could reach around the corner, pull a trigger (I had the image of a pistol trigger!) and various sized `mushroom shaped' units would expand to stick in any crack! I had a hard time picturing this, I kind of imagined nested cams of various sizes on a single pivot... wrong! Anyway, Bill showed us one of the prototypes of what he called a "Dumnut", and I remember immediately signing up for the free metal shop course offered in the Science center basement at Harvard (maybe the most useful course I took ;-) in hopes of making my own. Fortunately the first commercial units directly from Ray via Jimmie came out soon after, #1,2,3 for $17,19,21 resp., and they were quite revolutionary for me at Cathedral over hexes. In the end, I did use the metal shop skills to build a pegboard for the gymnastics room Andy Embick turned me onto there.
I was always curious how the name "Friends" arose - I think they wouldn't have caught on as quickly as "Dum(b?)nuts". The one Bill placed in a flaring slot in his office desk was about a #3 and had smooth cams, not serrated like the ones that came shortly afterward, and he described funding the development of two projects, Ray for these and I think it was the ice axes, and going to full development with the latter, and Ray went on to full development independently. I'm sure Kris could supply more accurate info!
One final aside - there was a problem with early #3 triggers and a free replacement program through Adventure 16. After several months of correspondence, it seemed one I returned was misplaced, and just before a spring JTree trip, I got a nice card I still have from the until then anonymous person I'd been corresponding with, saying here's something to thank you for treating a company "...as if it was really us people.
God bless, Ray", and in the box Ray himself had sent a complete set, 1-4 including the new half-sizes! It was good inspiration for the trip, and as I was recalling the Leaning Tower this week, which has now taken two heroes and friends, Todd and Dano, I remembered an incident when I soloed it shortly thereafter: While hauling at the 2nd belay, the system suddenly got too slack to haul, and I realized one of the 3 (original) anchor bolts had broken and was hanging on the slings connecting them. I quickly sling clipped the last bolt of the previous pitch but it wasn't until I also added a 1.5 Friend a little up the next pitch to the anchor, that I felt safe again. At that moment, I did say, out loud, "Thank you, Ray!"
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bpal
Nov 3, 2006, 5:27 PM
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Really fun topic! I'm looking forward to getting a copy of "Climbing Friends". Some Russian friends are trying to track down the historical developments on that side. I know it isn't constant angle, but Titons and Hexentrics definitely had some cruder camming involved and preceded these, didn't they? I remember going to Forrest in Denver with Jimmie Dunn in early 1977 - I had heard Jimmie tell me of Ray's devices where you could reach around the corner, pull a trigger (I had the image of a pistol trigger!) and various sized `mushroom shaped' units would expand to stick in any crack! I had a hard time picturing this, I kind of imagined nested cams of various sizes on a single pivot... wrong! Anyway, Bill showed us one of the prototypes of what he called a "Dumnut", and I remember immediately signing up for the free metal shop course offered in the Science center basement at Harvard (maybe the most useful course I took ;-) in hopes of making my own. Fortunately the first commercial units directly from Ray via Jimmie came out soon after, #1,2,3 for $17,19,21 resp., and they were quite revolutionary for me at Cathedral over hexes. In the end, I did use the metal shop skills to build a pegboard for the gymnastics room Andy Embick turned me onto there.
I was always curious how the name "Friends" arose - I think they wouldn't have caught on as quickly as "Dum(b?)nuts". The one Bill placed in a flaring slot in his office desk was about a #3 and had smooth cams, not serrated like the ones that came shortly afterward, and he described funding the development of two projects, Ray for these and I think it was the ice axes, and going to full development with the latter, and Ray went on to full development independently. I'm sure Kris could supply more accurate info!
One final aside - there was a problem with early #3 triggers and a free replacement program through Adventure 16. After several months of correspondence, it seemed one I returned was misplaced, and just before a spring JTree trip, I got a nice card I still have from the until then anonymous person I'd been corresponding with, saying here's something to thank you for treating a company "...as if it was really us people.
God bless, Ray", and in the box Ray himself had sent a complete set, 1-4 including the new half-sizes! It was good inspiration for the trip, and as I was recalling the Leaning Tower this week, which has now taken two heroes and friends, Todd and Dano, I remembered an incident when I soloed it shortly thereafter: While hauling at the 2nd belay, the system suddenly got too slack to haul, and I realized one of the 3 (original) anchor bolts had broken and was hanging on the slings connecting them. I quickly sling clipped the last bolt of the previous pitch but it wasn't until I also added a 1.5 Friend a little up the next pitch to the anchor, that I felt safe again. At that moment, I did say, out loud, "Thank you, Ray!"
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bpal
Nov 3, 2006, 5:28 PM
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Really fun topic! I'm looking forward to getting a copy of "Climbing Friends". Some Russian friends are trying to track down the historical developments on that side. I know it isn't constant angle, but Titons and Hexentrics definitely had some cruder camming involved and preceded these, didn't they? I remember going to Forrest in Denver with Jimmie Dunn in early 1977 - I had heard Jimmie tell me of Ray's devices where you could reach around the corner, pull a trigger (I had the image of a pistol trigger!) and various sized `mushroom shaped' units would expand to stick in any crack! I had a hard time picturing this, I kind of imagined nested cams of various sizes on a single pivot... wrong! Anyway, Bill showed us one of the prototypes of what he called a "Dumnut", and I remember immediately signing up for the free metal shop course offered in the Science center basement at Harvard (maybe the most useful course I took ;-) in hopes of making my own. Fortunately the first commercial units directly from Ray via Jimmie came out soon after, #1,2,3 for $17,19,21 resp., and they were quite revolutionary for me at Cathedral over hexes. In the end, I did use the metal shop skills to build a pegboard for the gymnastics room Andy Embick turned me onto there.
I was always curious how the name "Friends" arose - I think they wouldn't have caught on as quickly as "Dum(b?)nuts". The one Bill placed in a flaring slot in his office desk was about a #3 and had smooth cams, not serrated like the ones that came shortly afterward, and he described funding the development of two projects, Ray for these and I think it was the ice axes, and going to full development with the latter, and Ray went on to full development independently. I'm sure Kris could supply more accurate info!
One final aside - there was a problem with early #3 triggers and a free replacement program through Adventure 16. After several months of correspondence, it seemed one I returned was misplaced, and just before a spring JTree trip, I got a nice card I still have from the until then anonymous person I'd been corresponding with, saying here's something to thank you for treating a company "...as if it was really us people.
God bless, Ray", and in the box Ray himself had sent a complete set, 1-4 including the new half-sizes! It was good inspiration for the trip, and as I was recalling the Leaning Tower this week, which has now taken two heroes and friends, Todd and Dano, I remembered an incident when I soloed it shortly thereafter: While hauling at the 2nd belay, the system suddenly got too slack to haul, and I realized one of the 3 (original) anchor bolts had broken and was hanging on the slings connecting them. I quickly sling clipped the last bolt of the previous pitch but it wasn't until I also added a 1.5 Friend a little up the next pitch to the anchor, that I felt safe again. At that moment, I did say, out loud, "Thank you, Ray!"
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andylee
Nov 8, 2006, 12:51 AM
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I see a few of you have asked for the whereabouts of Mr. Bill Forrest of Forrest Mountaineering. If it is the same person, I knew him as an avid climber and as the owner of "Executive Tools" in the early nineties. I would like to get a copy of an excellent goal setting system he authored. Can anyone out there help me?
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curtis_g
Nov 8, 2006, 1:54 AM
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I heard rumors that Curt invented the cam.
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ajkclay
Nov 8, 2006, 4:02 AM
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In reply to: man, I don't know s--- about s--- but that was a damn good answer.
now that deserves a trophy! Alas! I have none, anyone got a spare?
Cheers Adam
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curt
Nov 8, 2006, 4:18 AM
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In reply to: I heard rumors that Curt invented the cam.
No, that was the can. Before that, everyone had to shit in the woods.
Curt
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argonaut
Nov 9, 2006, 2:58 PM
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Bill Forrest and I were co-owners of Forrest Mountaineering in the 70's, Bill later became Executive Tools and I started Argonaut and AIRE inflatable cats and rafts. Please contact me off line, Kris@oceanid.com and I can send you his email contact.
Cheers,
Kris Walker
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knightstreet
Jan 23, 2007, 5:11 PM
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You lot have just been out-nerded by this guy who collects ascenders and descenders:
http://storrick.cnchost.com/...ges/RopeGrab765.html
Just a question - The first page shows a Camlock. Now I'm no Jeeneyus but that isn't a camming device a-la-friends - Camlocks were mentioned earlier in this post as a 'Camming device'.
Anyone got any pictures of these early devices too? Would be interesting to see the progression from the prototypes.
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