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ricardol
Sep 23, 2004, 9:28 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: 'Bone likes the separate let-out line method as opposed to re-tying the haul line short to use the excess as a let-out which Ricardo described. not allways true psymche, On the zodiac I used the "haul line slack lower out method." I used my petzl mini traxion to pul the slack through and carry the weight of the haul bag. if it doesn't need a long lower out line I just use the docking teather which is aboutr 10 ft long.
.. This is the same method i used on the zod .. when the bag was tied in short, i then used a munter to control the lowering out of the bag ..
.. i plan on doing the same method on the trip .. i think it will work except for 1 pitch .. (p5) .. since that seems to be a LARGE lower out .. though it seems to be in space .. so lowering out as far as it will go, and then letting the pigs loose might work just fine .. at any rate, i plan on carrying an extension so i can do a large lower out if neccesary ..
matt: .. i've decided to skip p1 - p4 on the trip and just do the LA/Virginia start ..
-- ricardo
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noshoesnoshirt
Sep 23, 2004, 9:49 PM
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lambone wrote .....
In reply to: I would not agree with noshoesnoshirts recomendation, not at all. probly safe enough, but not optimal in my opinion, for several reasons. First it sounds like he is hanging the bag of the anchor directly with the haul rope. try this with heavy bags and you'll shortly realize that you just screwed yourself. Much smarter to use a seperate docking line with a load relase knot like the Munter-Mule that can be released under tension. This is a fundememntal self-rescue skill and should be common knowledge for anyone heading up on to a big wall for this reason.
yah, munter-mule's great. but even if you use a non-releasing knot, it's not rocket science to free the bag. two 'biners and six or eight feet of utility cord work fine for a makeshift block-and-tackle.
In reply to: Second, I use a Petzl swivel. Which would be imposible to rig if you were tying the rope directly into the haul bag straps.
got me there.
In reply to: Third, nylon on nylon is not a good thing where there is potential movement and friction in the system...which there most definately is/can be when hauling. For this same reason harness manufacturers recoment NOT tieing directly into the Belay loop of a harness. At the very least you are going to cause excesive wear and tear to both your haulbag strap and the rope.
so i suppose you shouldn't tie into the tie-in point of your harness either? isn't that nylon-on-nylon?
this method has not caused any undue wear on my bag or rope.
In reply to: Fourth, I see the potential for rope damage trying to haul your bag past a ledge or roof lip.
and this won't happen with a 'biner only attachment?
In reply to: Fifth, you are not going to easily beable to seperate your haul bag from the haul rope....which is inevitabley neccisary sometimes during a big wall climb. Once that knot has been weighted and hauled on it is going to take some time and effort to get it undone should you need to for some reason. Which given "Murphey's Law" you definately will.
see number one above. if you want to put the bag on another tether it's pretty easy to free it up. there are all sorts of tricks ...
edited again to add
as for the knot seizing up, i've never had a problem with it, but i've always hauled on a fat 11mm. and it seems the knot would be just as likely to seize when loaded on a biner.
edited to add
wallress;
i am talking about loading the knot. if you set it up like i described, you'll notice the load is distributed pretty evenly between straps due to the different lengths. the figure-eight loads the long strap and also the 'biner, which loads the short strap.
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megableem
Sep 23, 2004, 10:03 PM
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lambone
Sep 23, 2004, 10:47 PM
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In reply to: as for the knot seizing up, i've never had a problem with it, but i've always hauled on a fat 11mm. and it seems the knot would be just as likely to seize when loaded on a biner. edited to add wallress; i am talking about loading the knot. if you set it up like i described, you'll notice the load is distributed pretty evenly between straps due to the different lengths. the figure-eight loads the long strap and also the 'biner, which loads the short strap.
noshoes...
not argueing with you, just tossing ideas around. I agree that it's never too hard to untie a weighted knot(only once coulod I not untie one, after a factor two fall). However if your bags are attached with a locking biner, wouldn't you say it's easier to free them quickly? Lets say freeing the haulbags from the rope is the easiest way to undo a hopelessly tangled rope...which has happened to me several times. I wouldn't want to go through the trouyble of working out a weighted knot.
As far as the why tie into the tie-in loops in you harness...(I had to answer this question hunders of times during belay tests at the climbing gym I use to work at....) well that's what the manufacturers recomend first of all. Second of all, harness are usually reinforced at that point. and last, there isn't much weighted motion with the rope going on at that point.
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noshoesnoshirt
Sep 23, 2004, 11:53 PM
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lambone,
sorry if i came off sounding like a presidential candidate. i realize everyone has their own prefered systems. i've tried a few different ways of doin' it, and the technique i describe works for me. i like the soundness of mind i get knowing my bag CANNOT come unclipped without a conscious effort on my part.
you do bring up valid points. i guess in trying to address them i got a bit overzealous. no belicosity was intended.
seriously though, getting the knot out has never been a problem. in fact, with the rope being as stiff as it is, i get a bit concerned about the knot being tightened enough.
regards,
kerry
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megableem
Sep 24, 2004, 1:47 AM
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lambone
Sep 24, 2004, 4:07 AM
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no belicosity was taken....whatever the heck that means! :)
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lazide
Sep 24, 2004, 4:27 AM
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Personally I have seen to many cross load events when using a central locker to haul/lower off - it made me seriously reconsider using a single locker, especially since I use it as a counterweight when soloing.
I picked up a rigging plate from kong that has met my needs perfectly - light, no cross loading issues, spreads the load a bit, and very durable. When I soloed mescalito, I had three bags. I attached each bag to the plate with a maillon (the gates can't move when they are under load, and in this case can't open accidentally) - light, bomber, no cross loading, etc.
The top hole I used for the 'anchor' - load release tether, far end hauler, haul line locker, etc. Things like the far end hauler (which was what I hauled off) I attached with small maillons, things that I needed to move around occassionally (like the load release tether, etc) got beefy (and compact) OP D lockers.
When soloing, the rope ran from me, to the 'power hole' (heh) on the bags (connected with a locker), to the main power point of my anchor (two opposite and opposed 'biners). Redundant, absorbs shock, blah blah blah.
And for those interested in the plate - good luck finding it. ;)
http://www.kong.it/pr_slng.htm
It is the Trip'lan (bottom left) - 70g (same as a compact locker) - 30kn in any direction.
Oh yeah - and next time I am putting my damn swivel on the bags. Between the 50mph winds and fricken every other pitch traversing like 50ft (if your lucky!), it was pretty entertaining watching the bags sometimes.....
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iamthewallress
Sep 24, 2004, 5:15 PM
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In reply to: Avoid using certain wiregate biners (BD Neutrino) in double-biner situations like powerpoints. The other biner can force the wiregate open when the rig is weighted.
:shock:
Can you elaborate on this? Doubled up Neutrionos are my 'lockers' on free climbs and frequently do the job on walls. I've used tripled neutrions more than once for TR anchors! I've never had this problem with this brand in particular....in fact their small size seemed to make them less likely to invite crap inside the D to twist things around.
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iamthewallress
Sep 24, 2004, 5:27 PM
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In reply to: : Consider buying and using a rope protector. It could (have) save(d) a life if used on a fixed line (on p2 of the Trip). Fish's Grain Tamer is super; there are probably others.
Ricardo's question about fixing on the trip got me thinking about this one...
Tip: An alternative to a dedicated rope protector is a good sturdy rope bag (like the A5 rope bucket) or a big, burly stuff sack.
Cinch up the draw cord as tightly as you can and make a prussic w/ it aroung the rope above where you want the bag to rest. Give it a good yank to make sure the prussic sets. Wrap the bag around the rope at the edge. If it's a 'real' rope bag, there should be a loop at the bottom too that you can fix onto the rope to keep it from coming unwrapped. If you are using a big stuff sack, you can wrap in sling along the length and prussing off the sling to the rope at the bottom to keep it in place. As long as you've got it set well w/ the prussic, tape works OK to keep it wrapped up on the rope as well.
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noshoesnoshirt
Sep 24, 2004, 5:41 PM
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In reply to: Hey noshoesnoshirt- I've always used a locker. Seemed simpler. But now that I think about it, when I disconnect the line from the bag, I almost always end up untying the knot anyways. So maybe your style has merit? I do have one question for you though. What do you do when you want to tie the bag off short so you can use the tail as a lower out?
just tie the haul line off short, clip the short tie-off on a locker on the bag, hoist the bag onto a temporary tether, untie the knot on the end of the rope, and lower away.
oh yeah, lambone, bellicosity, from bellicose, meaning contentious or combatative in nature
ps after all this talk about 'biners thought i'd put in my 2 cents. the 'biner i use in my hauling configuration is a big ol' honkin' oversize industrial steel model. strong (50-60kN), easy to manage, and good to hit your partner in the head with as you flip the haul strap around.
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ricardol
Sep 25, 2004, 7:34 PM
Post #37 of 83
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i'm always paranoid that i'm going to thread my grigri backwards when soloing .. so before i set-off on lead (and while still backed up by a long sling to tbe belay) .. i'll test the grigri by letting it take my weight .. (as if i'd just fallen) ..
you can then be sure its on right ..
.. i've been told that most grigri failures (when soloing) have been due to mis-threaded setups.. but i have no data to back that up.
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diesel___smoke
Sep 26, 2004, 7:45 AM
Post #38 of 83
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In reply to: Space hauling allways feels pretty scetch to me.
Hmm, I've never really got that feeling - If things are setup properly, you're less likely to have something happen to your load, ropes, or haul device during space hauling than the 'normal' way... and thus it makes hauling safer.
I can't wait for the 'idiots' to rip into this statement without giving it any thought as to why it is.
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imnotclever
Sep 27, 2004, 3:49 PM
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In reply to: In the photo, I have just rappeled my haul line (Mark of Zorrow pitch, Zodiac). Before taking the shot I retied into the extra slack on my leadline (green), beacuse I am scared to hang on the haulline for too long...a fear I can't seem to shake.
Some questions about the picture, if you don't mind:
-Why did you have extra slack at the tail end of your lead line?
-Is the daisy just directed through the upper left bolt to the white line or is there a seperate sling? Or is it clipped into a pocket.
-Did you haul from just the single bolt? Or where did you haul from?
Oh, I love pictures of aid belay set ups. This gets a vote from me.
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lambone
Sep 27, 2004, 5:46 PM
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In reply to: Some questions about the picture, if you don't mind: -Why did you have extra slack at the tail end of your lead line? -Is the daisy just directed through the upper left bolt to the white line or is there a seperate sling? Or is it clipped into a pocket. -Did you haul from just the single bolt? Or where did you haul from? Oh, I love pictures of aid belay set ups. This gets a vote from me.
Thanks, sure...
RE: Extra Slack-
The extra slack is leftover from my tie in from leading the previous pitch. When I finish the pitch I pull up about 10 ft of lack and fix the rope to the power point with an 8 on a bight. So I have an extra 10 ft or so too work with...this is unless I know I have a full 60 meter pitch. When I arive back at the belay after rappeling the haul line, I tie back into this slack end first thing, so i am tied into the end of the rope whenever possible. The only time I am not tied into the lead line is when rappeling the haul rope.
RE: Daisy-
The red daisy isn't really an integral part of the anchor. I use it mainly as an extra place to clip stuff into. In this photo I have the haulbag back up clipped into the the end loop of the red daisy. probly not the best place, I should have it clipped into the main powerpoint.
RE: Haul anchor-
I can't remember where I haulde from at this anchor, more than a year ago, but typicaly I will build a seperate hauling anchor with an equalized sling to two bolts. I usualy break it down after the haulbag has been docked and secured.
Occasionaly I will haul off a single bolt, if the bolt is a new fatty 3/8" bomber ASCA deal. I connect the hauler to the bolt with a draw to give it a little flexibility. I once clipped the hauler (Pro-traxion) directly into the bolts which cocked it at an awkward angle, and the damn thing would not lock on the rope...that sucked.
Let me know if you have any other questions. i'll post another solo anchor soon.
Diesel Smoke,
Spach hauling seems sketchy to me only because one person is directly attatched to the haul rope (with a back up of course) so IF something did happen to the hauler...that guy would be essentialy f'cked in the ass. I don't see how it makes it any saver as it is the same set up as a regular haul but with the 2nd clipped to the slack of the haul line. That is if we are talking about the same thing?
My safety tip of the day-
Befor ecutting the bags loose be absolutely sure the haul line is not rapped around something or caught in any way. This weekend we had an issue with the bags getting tangled with another parties fixed rope...sucky.
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iamthewallress
Sep 27, 2004, 6:39 PM
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In reply to: My safety tip of the day- Befor ecutting the bags loose be absolutely sure the haul line is not rapped around something or caught in any way. This weekend we had an issue with the bags getting tangled with another parties fixed rope...sucky.
I've had this problem too. In our situation, we'd fixed the lines (very much in space) the night before. I jugged the haul line. Partner liberated the bags and I started to haul as she got ready to jug the fixed lead line.
It happened to be a high wind day in a very vortex-y kinda spot and the bag started flying in grand arcs. Got very rapped around the (mercifully slack) lead line. Since my partner was still at the belay below, it was more of an supreme annoyance than a hazzard, but it could have been nasty.
I walked down month or two later who had just topped out on the Zodiac. I'm not sure of the details of their rig, but somehow they were using a nut as an attachment point, perhaps just for their flagged ledge?. Their rig caught wind and started spinning wildly. When we got to the Manure Pile lot, it just happened that their friend had caught that moment on video and was there to share. Goodness, it looked scarey. They showed us the nut that was in the rig, and the thing was twisted around like 20 times to the point where the wires started popping out of it. Anyhoo, I can't comment on their rig, but seeing the video and the nut did make a strong point about the power of the wind.
Besides using swivels. Does anyone have any tips for dealing with high winds?
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holdplease2
Sep 27, 2004, 7:36 PM
Post #42 of 83
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Wind. I do not like the wind.
Lead Line: When soloing in high winds I carry my lead line on my back. Black Diamond makes a rope bag which works as a backpack. It seems like it would be heavy, but it isn't too bad. Adding a rebelay on the lead line after 60 or 80 feet (just a rubber band unless there is a need for more) takes some weight away. Rope bags hanging from a harness constantly tap my leg and piss me off.
Haul Line: I use a tag rack 60% of the time when I solo. I attach end of the haul line to this, rather than to my harness to save weight. I leave the remainder of the haul line in a bag at the belay. I carry a small rope bag in the tag rack.
If the wind gets so high that it "steals" my haul line from the bag at the belay, I just bring up my tag rack, re-stack the haul line in the rope bag (which I use for other purposes upon arriving at belay) and tie it off with 50 feet of slack, or so. After climbing 50 feet, I pull up the tag rack, rerack, and give myself another 50 feet of haul line. Its important not to lead beyond the amount of haul line you have payed out...because then the tag rack cannot reach you when you try to tag. Time consuming, but try getting your haul line wrapped around your pigs or, worse, a remote flake. Now THATS time consuming.
One "time eater" in high winds is trying to track down your aiders which swirl around your head in the wind. Attaching a clump of biners to the bottom step of the aiders (or the ballast loop) keeps this from happeining.
The wind can be really disturbing if I let it. From worry over the lines flying around/snagging, nylon gear swirrling around my body, and 200 lb pigs swinging around and spinning in space, wind can be a huge safety and psychological factor. I found that high winds can slow me down as much as darkness if I haven't 'windproofed' my belay and leading setup.
-Kate.
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lambone
Sep 27, 2004, 8:06 PM
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I kinda like it when the wind comes up...especialy when it starts picking up your aiders and ropes...it enhances my awareness of the position I'm in.
...but then again I'm also a sailor.
Our problem with the haul bags and fixed ropes wasn't from wind...but more from darkness since it was 2am... our fault for hauling in the first place I guess.
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lambone
Sep 27, 2004, 9:27 PM
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especialy if it is your partner's first wall and you are trying to understand the problem and talk him through it via walkies when neither of you can really see what the problem is...(but damn, thank good for the walkies).
Second saftey tip of the day- bring walkies! I'm ussualy not one for gizmos...but when the shit hits the fan these things are worth twice their weight in gold.
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iamthewallress
Sep 29, 2004, 6:59 PM
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In reply to: For camping-style walls: Bring a spare headlamp - with the small, economical options, almost no reason not to. Even a cheesy pocket or keychain flashlite could be a boon.
Absolutely!
I spent my first big wall bivy in slings b/c of a headlamp that lept from from my partners helmet clips.
I got beaned in the head with rope on the LT raps, sending my headlamp batteries earthward. Glad that I had a spare that time.
The key chain LED never leaves the little pocket in my chackbag.
Bonus SToD: Take a long bit of cord or a double length runner and leash your headlamp to yourself...especially if it's your only one.
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coylec
Sep 29, 2004, 7:14 PM
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I'm extremely pro-helmet. I climb in it, belay in it and generally wear it at all times. Currently, my headlamp is in the clips and then duct-taped in place. I keep the extra batteries taped to my lighter, which is always attached to my harness and kept in a pocket, with my smokes.
coylec
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coylec
Sep 29, 2004, 7:58 PM
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i'm using a tikka, so its really low profile.
coylec
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iamthewallress
Sep 29, 2004, 8:01 PM
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In reply to: i'm using a tikka, so its really low profile.
That's what I use too. Just a warning...It opens up really easily (i.e. the battery launch.) I wouldn't want it on my helmet full time unless I had a back up item plus more batteries. I keep my tikka in my chalkbag too. It's so tiny.
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megableem
Sep 29, 2004, 8:50 PM
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coylec
Sep 29, 2004, 9:32 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: i'm using a tikka, so its really low profile. That's what I use too. Just a warning...It opens up really easily
Serious? Guess I'm just a sissy ... i have to struggle with it to replace the batteries.
coylec
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