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itakealot
Sep 27, 2004, 5:27 AM
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the upside to the closures is that less traffic on the Crest, and less slow cars to get stuck behind to and fro the crag.
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dynoer
Sep 27, 2004, 5:52 AM
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In reply to: Actually, you're the bonehead. Several of the recent fires can be blamed on recreational users who didn't have a clue. Burning toilet paper, animal sacrifices, etc. It is a shame you are inconvenienced, but that's tough! We all need to help preserve this area. There are plenty of spots to climb in SoCal, so deal with it.
From what I could find The fires listed on the USFS webpage were caused by...
-Foothill fire: Red Tailed Hawk electrocuted by a power line.
-Crown fire: Under investigation, but it started in the residential area near Acton.
-Pine fire: Under investigation, started N. of Lake Hughs, near residential community.
-Curve fire: Santeria Worshippers, burning candles. Not exactly what I would consider "Recreational users". BTW this, the largest of the Angeles N. forest fires started in San Gabriel Cyn. an area not affected by the closure.
All these fires started in brushy terrain in low elevation areas (less than 5000')
Couldn't find anything about burning TP starting a fire.
dood, can you give more details on your info?
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picaco
Sep 27, 2004, 8:24 PM
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In reply to: Actually, you're the bonehead. Several of the recent fires can be blamed on recreational users who didn't have a clue. Burning toilet paper, animal sacrifices, etc. It is a shame you are inconvenienced, but that's tough! We all need to help preserve this area. There are plenty of spots to climb in SoCal, so deal with it.
Maybe this is true, but in my utopian world (which is all in my head at the moment), you wouldn't have this. Like dynoer said, I couldn't find any causes of a fire from burning TP. Also, in my mind, animal sacrifices are not recreational use. To me that sounds more like religion than recreation, but then again, I've never sacrificed animals. (who knows, maybe it's fun)
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melbatoast
Sep 27, 2004, 8:33 PM
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I happen to know someone personally (an esteemed member of this forum who shall remain nameless) who did start a fire by burning TP. Fortunately, he returned to the site before the fire took off and was able to put it out.
And here's my .02....How could the FS distinguish between hikers off to sacrifice animals and responsible climbers? What would happen to the thousands of hikers/campers in the area if a fire did start? Would the FS have the personnel to locate and evacuate them? Wouldn't there be gridlock which would make it hard to get fire fighters and equipment to where it was needed?
Anyway, maybe there's something we can do to reduce fire danger...volunteer to maintain trails or cut fire breaks? Stop using TP? I vote for some kind of dialogue with the FS so we can know their true motives and concerns and whether there are any compromises to be found. In fact, I volunteer to call and inquire and let you know what I find out. :)
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climbsomething
Sep 27, 2004, 9:15 PM
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In reply to: We were to have had a Clean A Crag Day today at Williamson, but I called it off after a couple of people contacted me late yesterday to let me know of the existing and pending closures they had heard on newscasts in the LA area. I searched the web sites, but could find nothing definitive. I contacted the Rangers Office and was told that Williamson will remail open due to the 1/8 mile hike and easy evacuation for a fire if required. The Ranger (forget his name) was polite, informative and hoped that we would reschdule the Clean A Crag Day! So, that will be done within the first two weeks of October! Leave No Trace and let's continue the good working relationship with the Angeles National Forest!!!! Go Climbing at Williamson!!
Regards
Fred Thomas |
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imprisonedbysociety
Sep 27, 2004, 10:06 PM
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This is a great way of thinking. Some one MAY start a fire somewhere, someday, so lets close the whole forest down. Oh except for areas like San Gabriel Canyon, the nastiest stank hole area in the angeles that sees by far the majority of the "recreational users who don't have a clue" as dood suggested, hang out. And as far as escape routes the overcrowed san garbriel canyon is somewhere I would not like to be when a fire broke out. I know someone who was caught above a fire in the canyon and was trapped along with tons of other people up at the gate where the 39 meets the 2 waiting for a forest service employee with a key to let them through. And for my last bit of ranting, all the National forests of this country are supposed to be Public Domain, the peoples land. How is it that more and more we are being told it is Illegal to go into our forests.
There will always be Idiots
There will always be fires (which are actually helpful to the forest ecosystem)
I personally dont think shutting down a whole forest is even close to appropriate.
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picaco
Sep 28, 2004, 1:04 AM
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In reply to: This is a great way of thinking. Some one MAY start a fire somewhere, someday, so lets close the whole forest down. Oh except for areas like San Gabriel Canyon, the nastiest stank hole area in the angeles that sees by far the majority of the "recreational users who don't have a clue" as dood suggested, hang out. And as far as escape routes the overcrowed san garbriel canyon is somewhere I would not like to be when a fire broke out. I know someone who was caught above a fire in the canyon and was trapped along with tons of other people up at the gate where the 39 meets the 2 waiting for a forest service employee with a key to let them through. And for my last bit of ranting, all the National forests of this country are supposed to be Public Domain, the peoples land. How is it that more and more we are being told it is Illegal to go into our forests. There will always be Idiots There will always be fires (which are actually helpful to the forest ecosystem) I personally dont think shutting down a whole forest is even close to appropriate.
How is the NFS looking out for people's safety bad? I don't understand your reasoning, I mean I would feel it my obligation to close and/or shut down anything or any area if it posed a possible danger to a number of people. Maybe I'm wrong, it's just my opinion.
Benjamin
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imprisonedbysociety
Sep 28, 2004, 6:03 PM
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Why aren't we allowed to be responsible for our own lives. I know there is potential fire danger, just like there is a potential falling danger in climbing. I am willing to accept the reasonable risk, why is it illegal for me to risk my own life. Post warnings, let the people know of the potential dangers, then they can make an informed decision on wheter or not they want to accept said risks. I am willing to accept the fact that if I were in a secluded area with no good escape routes, and a fire broke out and headed my way that I just may die, so what, I don't need them to tell me I'm not allowed to die. If they are closing the forest because they want to keep people out so we don't start a forest fire, thats even worse. That sounds a little bit like guilty until proven innocent. Punishing a whole population of people because dismal number of idiots in the past have caused fires. Not to mention the fact that they cannot say with any degree of certainty that even if they let people have campfires during peak fire season that it would result in a forest fire. It just seems ridiculous to me, all this pre-emptive action, assuming the worst of everything, and everyone. Do your best to educate and inform the public, responsibly manage the forests so they aren't a matchbox waiting to be lit, and then if a fire happens to break out, do your best to deal with it. If peoples precious houses, and cars burn because they built them on the mountains, well thats a risk they should have been aware of and accepted when they moved into that environment.
On a side note, I am currently in school studying forestry. :wink:
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t-dog
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Sep 28, 2004, 6:11 PM
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In reply to: Why aren't we allowed to be responsible for our own lives. I know there is potential fire danger, just like there is a potential falling danger in climbing. I am willing to accept the reasonable risk, why is it illegal for me to risk my own life.
You're completely missing the point here, nobody really cares if you fall climbing or start a fire and burn to death :twisted: The good part about you falling is that it doesn't affect anybody else (relatively speaking) whereas some dumba$$ going into a fire danger area and starting a fire has the possibility of causing millions of dollars in damages, as well as putting other peoples lives at risk, and that's what they don't want. And if you don't believe me, remember the guy who shot a flare in San Diego a year ago, yeah, he's loving that decision :shock:
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boulderdawg
Sep 28, 2004, 7:10 PM
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Did you say Williamson will remain open? I just want to be clear on that before I trek up there. Can you please give me the phone number of the ranger station you called? Thanks.
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picaco
Sep 28, 2004, 10:37 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Why aren't we allowed to be responsible for our own lives. I know there is potential fire danger, just like there is a potential falling danger in climbing. I am willing to accept the reasonable risk, why is it illegal for me to risk my own life. You're completely missing the point here, nobody really cares if you fall climbing or start a fire and burn to death :twisted: The good part about you falling is that it doesn't affect anybody else (relatively speaking) whereas some dumba$$ going into a fire danger area and starting a fire has the possibility of causing millions of dollars in damages, as well as putting other peoples lives at risk, and that's what they don't want. And if you don't believe me, remember the guy who shot a flare in San Diego a year ago, yeah, he's loving that decision :shock:
Don't forget the cost of coming to your aid. Emergency personal will try to rescue you regardless if you want them to or not. It's the same idea as jumping off a building, if you want to die, fine, but emergency personal will still risk their lives to save you (ie negotiators trying to talk you down, etc..). The cost for an emergency rescue in the wilderness, whether from falling while climbing or being trapped by a fire, is immense. Save taxpayers money and don't venture into areas closed by the NFS.
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thegreytradster
Sep 28, 2004, 11:42 PM
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In reply to: Does the closure affect San Jacinto State Wilderness? Tahquitz/Suicide? Thanks in advance. |
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jt512
Sep 29, 2004, 12:26 AM
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[quote="thegreytradster"]In reply to: Does the closure affect San Jacinto State Wilderness? Tahquitz/Suicide? Thanks in advance.
Have you heard something I haven't? What I heard is that fire conditions in the San Bernardion NF are not as severe as those in the Angeles, owing to the recent rain storms, and so there are currently no plans to close the San Bernardino NF.
-Jay
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thegreytradster
Sep 29, 2004, 12:54 AM
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Some of the lower altitude roads in the SB forest have been locked down. The only time I saw that happen was last last year just before the closure. In any case it won't effect Tahquitz or Suicide.
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fredbob
Sep 29, 2004, 1:00 AM
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In reply to: About an other month and it's time for J Tree anyway.
JT season is happening now.
Here is the site: http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cgi-progs/queryF?LTH
High of 81 today. Sounds pretty nice to me.
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climballnight
Sep 29, 2004, 2:13 AM
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I don't know, but does anyone know if the fire was in that area last Friday?
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kellymoe
Oct 1, 2004, 5:28 PM
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Just spoke with John Keeler at the Ranger District office and Williamson Rock is closed and will be until further notice. If in doubt call 818-899-1900 ask to speak with John Keeler.
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jt512
Oct 1, 2004, 5:47 PM
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In reply to: Just spoke with John Keeler at the Ranger District office and Williamson Rock is closed and will be until further notice. If in doubt call 818-899-1900 ask to speak with John Keeler.
I called and confirmed it. John Keeler says he was wrong when he previously said it was open. It's closed for the season.
-Jay
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climballnight
Oct 2, 2004, 2:43 PM
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DOH!!!
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