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gnat
Oct 1, 2004, 4:32 PM
Post #26 of 38
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In reply to: That's what every climbing training book says, based on how 1000 exercise physiology texts define endurance.
1000?? are you sure it isn't 987??
maybe you could append a list for us.
[this should keep him busy for a few days, giving us a well deserved respite from all his "wit" and "wisdom."]
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jt512
Oct 1, 2004, 4:56 PM
Post #27 of 38
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In reply to: That having been said there are a fair number of long routes at Williamson that are reasonably steep that have cruxes that aren't terribly hard for the grade and that are pretty pumpy. But I guess we won't call them endurance routes.
So you say, but you have yet to name one. Your examples:
1. The Shaman 5.11a. A short route with a distinct 5.11a crux.
2. World on Fire 5.12b/c. At least it's long enough to be endurance route, but it still isn't. It has two cruxes. I'd say the first is 12a, the second 12b. There's an extremely good rest between the cruxes. Gnat was correct that for a route to be an endurance route, the difficulty of the route must be substantially greater than the difficulty of the hardest moves. Neither of the routes you have named meet this criterion -- not even close. In other words, the crux of an endurance route is endurance -- that's why they're called endurance routes.
Now, if you know of some routes at Wmson that really are endurance routes, by the criteria used by Horst, Goddard, and anybody whose ever rated a route 5.12 when none of the moves are harder than 5.11a, then please post a list of them. I'd love to hear about them so I can work my endurance to be in shape for Echo Cliffs this winter. On the other hand, if you can't come up with any, then please concede the point.
-Jay
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jt512
Oct 1, 2004, 4:57 PM
Post #28 of 38
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In reply to: That having been said there are a fair number of long routes at Williamson that are reasonably steep that have cruxes that aren't terribly hard for the grade and that are pretty pumpy. But I guess we won't call them endurance routes.
So you say, but you have yet to name one. Your examples:
1. The Shaman 5.11a. A short route with a distinct 5.11a crux.
2. World on Fire 5.12b/c. At least it's long enough to be endurance route, but it still isn't. It has two cruxes. I'd say the first is 12a, the second 12b. There's an extremely good rest between the cruxes. Gnat was correct that for a route to be an endurance route, the difficulty of the route must be substantially greater than the difficulty of the hardest moves. Neither of the routes you have named meet this criterion -- not even close. In other words, the crux of an endurance route is endurance -- that's why they're called endurance routes.
Now, if you know of some routes at Wmson that really are endurance routes, by the criteria used by Horst, Goddard, and anybody whose ever rated a route 5.12 when none of the moves are harder than 5.11a, then please post a list of them. I'd love to hear about them so I can work my endurance to be in shape for Echo Cliffs this winter. On the other hand, if you can't come up with any, then please concede the point that Williamson is not an endurance crag.
-Jay
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jt512
Oct 1, 2004, 5:11 PM
Post #29 of 38
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In reply to: When I think of So Cal enduro routes, I think of Echo. But, I haven't been to the *crag under construction* nor Frustration Creek.
I hope to check out the "crag under construction" (CUC) some time soon. Some months ago I asked a CUC local if the routes were "endurance routes," and his answer was "not really, there are rests all over the place," which is what Josh says, above, though I can't tell if he's joking. The guy I talked to is a pretty solid 5.13 climber, so what is a "rest" to him might not be for most of us.
-Jay
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oldskool
Oct 1, 2004, 10:56 PM
Post #30 of 38
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hahaha....jay is cool, dont mess, ruffster! go work tha shit out of a five twelve or whatever your projectin these days. anyways.
hey, too the original poster:
go to frustration creek. looey anderson totally redpointed a route there, with all natural and organic holds, and he totally did it first, and it is totally rad and five fourteen! my rad friend, cristina lindner, got the SECOND ascent, after looey!
and for real endurance fun, get into biking or running, climbing is for powrful mo fo's like jay and ruffster, they are crushers!! i heard they can do five or seven pullups, consecutively!
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fluxus
Oct 1, 2004, 11:49 PM
Post #31 of 38
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I empathize with the search for good endurance routes in socal. They are difficult to find. I understand that the quarry is a good place for this but have not been there yet. For endurance training in socal I find that upclimbing and downclimbing routes of the apropreate grade is the best one can do. Using up climbing and down climbing Malibu can be an o.k. place to do endurance, For example the 5.10's in the middle of the power wall have pretty consistent movement and are easy to lap on. Just don't try it on a weekend because several routes share a common anchor. Johnny can't lead is a very consistent route but your endurance level will need to be pretty high to do enduro on it.
Gyms are often great places to train endurance via traversing or doing a lot of lead routes back to back / lapping.
I'm not sure why everyone is giving Jay such a hard time. He is right about willimson, the routes there tend have distinct cruxes and the climbing before and after the crux is often not consistent at all. A route like the shaman is by no means an endurance route unless you are climbing 5.12+ or so and up climb and down climb it a number of times without stopping and without getting pumped.
remember folks endurance means that the muscles in question are getting most of their energy from the aerobic energy system, that the blood pressure in the muscles is raised, and that the activity lasts long enough to have an effect, in climbing this is about 20min+. Of course, in climbing we are most concerned with the flexors of the fingers and wrists since it is these muscles that reach their aerobic limit so quickly. This being the case general endurance activities such as running don't help much and heart rate is no guide as to the effectivness of the training.
the overall volume of activity also helps build endurance.
if you ever want to go out for an endurance day send me a PM and we will hook up!
peace
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pbjosh
Oct 2, 2004, 1:38 AM
Post #32 of 38
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I really don't care what the technical definition of an endurance route is. I also have better things to do than get into a 9 page nitpick.
I can get a great pump at Williamson and I'll leave it at that.
In the end cgranite is more or less a troll who likes to ask a different spray-question every few weeks...
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fluxus
Oct 2, 2004, 4:14 AM
Post #33 of 38
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In reply to: I really don't care what the technical definition of an endurance route is. I also have better things to do than get into a 9 page nitpick. I can get a great pump at Williamson and I'll leave it at that.
and as long as you don't confuse getting a great pump with endurance then all is well.
peace
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gnat
Oct 3, 2004, 2:02 AM
Post #34 of 38
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In reply to: If Big Moe were bolted, I don't think it would be much harder to lead than to TR. Big Moe only has one hard move, which is height dependent -- coming out of the scoop. You get good rests in the horizontals, and above that, it's an endurance run to the top [emphasis].
please explain how big mo (a 45 foot climb) can be an "endurance run" even though it has a distinct "one hard move" crux (and good rests), but the shamen or world on fire (and anything short of 5.13) at williamson doesn't qualify.
in the same thread quoted above it was mentioned that hellraiser (12c) was hard solely because it was continuous and pumpy though it had no moves harder than hard 5.11. though hellraiser isn't 5.13, is it an endurance route?
i'm so confused. maybe you could direct me to a couple dozen of those 1000 reference books to help clear this up.
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kellymoe
Oct 3, 2004, 4:36 PM
Post #35 of 38
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Don't matter what your level of climbing is, you can build endurance just by changing the way you climb even if it is a route you have done a hundred times. Either don't use rests that you normaly would or hang out on some that that you would normaly blow through to get a good burn going. Doesn't matter if it is Wmson, New Jack or Stoney Point. This thread has gotten stoopid.
Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. It don't matter who wins your still retarded.
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jt512
Oct 4, 2004, 3:02 PM
Post #36 of 38
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In reply to: I really don't care what the technical definition of an endurance route is. I also have better things to do than get into a 9 page nitpick. I can get a great pump at Williamson and I'll leave it at that.
Josh, you can get a great pump doing sets of barbell curls in the gym, but that doesn't mean you are building endurance.
-Jay
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cgranite
Oct 4, 2004, 6:39 PM
Post #37 of 38
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Registered: Aug 5, 2003
Posts: 366
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In reply to: I really don't care what the technical definition of an endurance route is. I also have better things to do than get into a 9 page nitpick. I can get a great pump at Williamson and I'll leave it at that. In the end cgranite is more or less a troll who likes to ask a different spray-question every few weeks...
What the Heck is that about?!!!
I'm asking a question you hater. Obviously this is a great question because the only decent place that has popped up seems to be a secret.
If I want to ask where to go for something, I want to do so without having a person like you messing up the thread. THIS SITE IS FOR GATHERING INFO!!! Sometimes it's ok to poke fun, but my post is legitimate and I do not deserve your BS. You’re coming off strongly as a person who lives on this site and needs to be critical of everyone.
GO GET SOME FRESH AIR AND LEAVE THE POSTING TO PEOPLE THAT ARE HELPFUL AND POSSITIVE.
Besides that garbage, I am interested in the place that's under construction and that Frustration creek. I figure, since I won't be able to climb hard and get my thrills that way, then I might as well do so aesthetically by getting way up in the air. Oh ya...and getting a lethal pump while I'm at it.
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pbjosh
Oct 4, 2004, 6:49 PM
Post #38 of 38
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All I've noticed is that you keep asking for different types of hard routes, seems a little spray-esque but whatever, no harm intended on my part.
If you want to get to Frustration or The Quarry, I can provide a good tour of Frustration and an intro tour to The Quarry. At The Quarry I know maybe a dozen of the more classic routes but someone like socalbolter (who is doing a lot of the route development there) is much, much more qualified to give a tour there...
josh
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