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timstich
Oct 13, 2004, 4:36 AM
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In reply to: Not true, Tim. I only talk to all clueless grommetts that way. :lol: Curt
Oh bullshit. You talk to everyone that way. Do I have to dig up your debates with Bob D.? You guys should both go do the presidential debates instead of the current participants. At least it would be entertaining.
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curt
Oct 13, 2004, 4:49 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Not true, Tim. I only talk to all clueless grommetts that way. :lol: Curt Oh s---. You talk to everyone that way. Do I have to dig up your debates with Bob D.? You guys should both go do the presidential debates instead of the current participants. At least it would be entertaining.
No fair. Those posts are in community and besides old fart trad climbers have the explicit right to trash one another with impunity. Its tradition.
Curt
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timstich
Oct 13, 2004, 4:57 AM
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In reply to: No fair. Those posts are in community and besides old fart trad climbers have the explicit right to trash one another with impunity. Its tradition.
Hey, it's not like there's anything wrong with it. Sack up ya tard.
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curt
Oct 13, 2004, 5:01 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: No fair. Those posts are in community and besides old fart trad climbers have the explicit right to trash one another with impunity. Its tradition. Hey, it's not like there's anything wrong with it. Sack up ya tard.
Tards is right.
Curt
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timstich
Oct 13, 2004, 5:02 AM
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In reply to: Tards is right. Curt
My sources tell me the proper response is: werd.
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bilias
Oct 13, 2004, 5:17 AM
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Hey mods, let this one go and go and go. This is hilarious! Curt, I love the comment about the lack of a 'retard' forum.
Anyways, I have to agree on backclipping being a bit too hyped. But it makes more sense to do avoid it so why not?
reggie
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glowering
Oct 13, 2004, 2:13 PM
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In reply to: In order for the backclip to result in the rope unclipping from the carabiner, the carabiner must be held quite rigidly--at least so rigidly that it is easier for the rope to open that carabiner gate than it is for the biner to simply rotate. This is more likely to occur on sport climbs than on trad climbs because the bolts (combined with short, stiff draws) provide much more of a rigid base for the carabiner to lever against. When trad climbing, the gear is normally a nut or cam with a somewhat flexible wire which provides a much less rigid base for the carabiner to lever against. Additionally longer more flexible runners are often used to clip trad gear.
Curt,
Your original statement was "Climb trad and you won't have to worry about it. "
Then in the statement above you write "more LIKELY to occur on sport climbs than on trad", "the gear is NORMALLY..", "runners OFTEN used".
What about a bolt or pin on a trad route clipped with a quick draw or just a biner?
What about the scenario I brought up before with a cam with just the attached sling (especially for a cam like an old U stem Camalot Jr. with the sling sewn tight like a dogbone)?
What about a biner that hangs in a crack or corner which keeps it from rotating?
In reply to: But more fundementally, while the whole back clip thing is good to know, IMO the risk is pretty insignificant and certainly one of the most overblown topics in sport climbing. Yes, sport climbing, because I have to chime in with Curt on this one as in trad climbing this is not an issue (real or imagined). I think there are literally hundreds of more important things to worry about when climbing.
I have already stated I think backclipping leading to unclipping is very rare and agree there are more important things to worry about. It takes a combination of a number of things happening (falling in a certain direction, the biner not being able to rotate, etc.). But when those things line up accidents can and do happen. IMO it's better to just learn how to clip the right way and you won't have to worry about it.
In reply to: I have been climbing at a pretty high standard for over 25 years and Randy has been doing so for even longer, in addition to literally writing the books to climbing in southern California. I have never seen a rope unclip due to backclipping and nobody I know has ever seen this happen. So I suppose you can now tell both Randy and me that we are full of crap and we don't know what we are talking about because you read something different in a book somewhere. Get a clue. Curt
I've been climbing for 15 years, but more importantly I learn new things all the time and I have an open mind. I read every book I get my hands on and learn things from climbing with some incredible people. Then I think about what I've learned, try new techniques and decide what I think is the safest and most efficient way to climb.
I've never seen a rope unclip but it obviously happens or we wouldn't be talking about it. Why not just make it a habit to avoid backclipping? Then you won't have to worry about those rare circumstances in trad climbing (some of which are listed above) where it IS possible you could unclip.
And yes Curt you are full of crap. Not for your opinions, but because you need to get an open mind and get over yourself. You can treat people like crap all the time and it might make someone upset for a few minutes but when you are constantly negative the person who suffers the most from a constant negative attitude is you.
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drrock
Oct 13, 2004, 2:24 PM
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abouttopeel
Oct 13, 2004, 2:55 PM
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Too funny!
Curt, screw these guys, let's go back to the Community forum and talk about politics!
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sarcat
Oct 13, 2004, 3:02 PM
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This is funny.
I'll agree with curt that the issue most likely is over analized and overblown. But maybe the reason falls on back clips (sport-short-stiff dogbones) are not occuring is because MOST n00bs are taught from the get go what it is and not to do it so the possibility is mitigated before there's even a chance?????
In my limited experiance compared to others I've never seen a fall on a "back-clip" much less a fall where the rope came out of the biner.
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glowering
Oct 13, 2004, 3:53 PM
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In reply to: On a related note, in trad (this question is for one of the guys who has been climbing more than a decade, of course) when you clip a piece that has a sling draw (say, 24 inch) and of course this sling can flip around as it will, won't you technically be back clipped fairly often, even if you clipped in the "proper" way?
First off with a fully extended 24 inch sling, don't worry about it. Curt is right that there needs to be resistance on the biner for the rope to be able to open the gate.
But it doesn't matter anyway because if you fall once the rope pulls the sling tight it will most likely orient itself to the original way you placed it. The bigger danger in that situation is a cross loaded biner, but I'm not going to open that can of worms.
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crimpandgo
Oct 13, 2004, 4:22 PM
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Why did some of the first posts get deletd? hard to tell the history when that happens?
How did this topic turn into a flame fest of trad techniques? The poster's original question did have to do with trad soley. So, why, Curt did you so offensively chime in a start calling anyone that doesn't agree with you clueless.
I agree with your discussion about the trad side of this. Your post was very informative and helpful to the rest of us that do not have trad experience. I had never thought about it that way.
However, you make it sound like it is stupid for anyone to want to protect against a back-clip in trad. Although it might be overkill, I believe if it makes people feel more comfortable to do, then go ahead and do. Thanks to Curt's previous discussion, you now can rest easier knowing it really overkill :lol:
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olderic
Oct 13, 2004, 5:08 PM
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I think that the point that Curt and Randy are trying to make (and that I agree with) is that the preceived danger of back clipping has become very popular (and overblown) and when people (especially inexperienced ones) tend to get panicked when they think they see a back clip - either by them selves or some one else and think that if they don't fix it immediately then something dire will happen. There are lots more dangerous things (like trying to fix a backclip and preserve the redpiint/flash/onsight when you are pumped) to be aware of - but they don't seem to get te attention.
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curt
Oct 13, 2004, 5:12 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: On a related note, in trad (this question is for one of the guys who has been climbing more than a decade, of course) when you clip a piece that has a sling draw (say, 24 inch) and of course this sling can flip around as it will, won't you technically be back clipped fairly often, even if you clipped in the "proper" way? First off with a fully extended 24 inch sling, don't worry about it. Curt is right that there needs to be resistance on the biner for the rope to be able to open the gate.
Its funny how you say I am right but you are still arguing with me about backclipping. Hilarious really. I think Randy Vogel summed it up best.
In reply to: I think there are literally hundreds of more important things to worry about when climbing.
If you want to continue worry about this non-issue, please feel free to do so. However, you might want to also restrict your climbing exclusively to indoor gym climbing, since your chances of being hit by lightning or being bitten by a snake while climbing outdoors are much greater than being hurt by a backclipping accident.
Curt
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glowering
Oct 13, 2004, 5:31 PM
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In reply to: Its funny how you say I am right but you are still arguing with me about backclipping. Hilarious really. I think Randy Vogel summed it up best. In reply to: I think there are literally hundreds of more important things to worry about when climbing.
I said you were right about that there needs to be resistance on the biner for backclipping to lead to unclipping. That doesn't mean I think you are right that backclipping nevers matters in trad climbing. :roll: I guess you just see what you want to see even if it doesn't jive with reality.
For the THIRD time I agree, yes there are more important things to worry about, that doesn't mean you should not be aware of potentialy dangerous situations.
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crimpandgo
Oct 13, 2004, 5:31 PM
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Quote:
If you want to continue worry about this non-issue, please feel free to do so. However, you might want to also restrict your climbing exclusively to indoor gym climbing, since your chances of being hit by lightning or being bitten by a snake while climbing outdoors are much greater than being hurt by a backclipping accident.
Response:
Now here are words of wisdom bruthu :)
I have nearly stepped directly on two rattlesnakes this year alone. Scared the living crap out of me both times. I haven't even come close to a back-clip failure yet. :lol: :lol:
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jt512
Oct 14, 2004, 12:10 AM
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Self-correcting market forces don't seem to be working in this thread, so allow me to give things a subtle nudge in the right direction:
I CAN'T BELIEVE HOW MANY OF YOU THINK THAT BACKCLIPPING IS NO BIG DEAL. ARE YOU NUTS?
-Jay
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kobaz
Oct 14, 2004, 1:43 AM
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In reply to: I CAN'T BELIEVE HOW MANY OF YOU THINK THAT BACKCLIPPING IS NO BIG DEAL. ARE YOU NUTS?
Thank you :)
That was my point all along and I'm glad a senior member of the board has agreed.,
For some reason curt thinks I'm a "clueless grommit" because he doesn't think its something to be aware about when climbing trad. I may be a newbie, but I try and be a safe newbie.
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curt
Oct 14, 2004, 2:13 AM
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In reply to: Self-correcting market forces don't seem to be working in this thread, so allow me to give things a subtle nudge in the right direction: I CAN'T BELIEVE HOW MANY OF YOU THINK THAT BACKCLIPPING IS NO BIG DEAL. ARE YOU NUTS? -Jay
Sorry, Jay but you are absolutely on the wrong side of this one.
Curt
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jt512
Oct 14, 2004, 2:32 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Self-correcting market forces don't seem to be working in this thread, so allow me to give things a subtle nudge in the right direction: I CAN'T BELIEVE HOW MANY OF YOU THINK THAT BACKCLIPPING IS NO BIG DEAL. ARE YOU NUTS? -Jay Sorry, Jay but you are absolutely on the wrong side of this one. Curt
Then I'm in good company, because every sport climber I've ever met, every carbiner manufacturer, every gym, and every climbing instruction book author, agrees with me: Backclipping is dangerous -- at least backclipping bolts is.
If you fall above a backlipped bolt, the rope can easily unclip. The only reason we don't see this happen much is that sport climbers don't backclip. If they did, they'd be decking right and left.
You can easily simulate the effect of falling on a backclip in the safety of your living room. Simply take a draw -- preferrably a stiff one -- and hold it in front of you. Backclip a rope through it, and then quickly jerk down on the rope so that it crosses over the gate. Voila. It unclips. It helps, of course, if the bottom biner of the draw has a bent gate, but a bent gate isn't necessary. Many newbies don't get why backclipping is dangerous, but when you give them this little demo, their eyes practically pop out of their head.
I once saw a new sport leader climbing a route who had backclipped 4 bolts in a row. The bolts were almost perfectly vertically aligned, and the rope ran right over the gates of all 4 biners. If she had fallen, it would be hard to imagine how she could not have decked.
Every beginner should...[*:e3987d8399]Learn what a backclip is and understand why it is dangerous.
[*:e3987d8399]Learn how to pick up the rope (scoop it up palms-up) so that you don't back clip.
[*:e3987d8399]Learn to recognize a back clip, if you accidentally do back clip (it happens).
[*:e3987d8399]Never climb above a back-clipped bolt. Instead, correct the clip, even if you have to "take" to do so.
[*:e3987d8399]Watch your partners, and warn them if they backclip.
-Jay
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kobaz
Oct 14, 2004, 2:38 AM
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jt: We're talking about back clipping on trad, not sport.
But the points of a few people on this topic so far have been towards back clipping being equally as bad in *certain* situations on trad.
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curt
Oct 14, 2004, 2:51 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Self-correcting market forces don't seem to be working in this thread, so allow me to give things a subtle nudge in the right direction: I CAN'T BELIEVE HOW MANY OF YOU THINK THAT BACKCLIPPING IS NO BIG DEAL. ARE YOU NUTS? -Jay Sorry, Jay but you are absolutely on the wrong side of this one. Curt Then I'm in good company, because every sport climber I've ever met, every carbiner manufacturer, every gym, and every climbing instruction book author, agrees with me: Backclipping is dangerous -- at least backclipping bolts is.
Most real life experienced climbers who are not merely parroting back what some gumby told them in a gym, or what they read in a book will not, however, agree with you. Randy Vogel does not. I certainly do not. Your proposed living room demonstration in no way represents what occurs in real life--even when clipped to a bolt.
Curt
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jt512
Oct 14, 2004, 2:53 AM
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In reply to: jt: We're talking about back clipping on trad, not sport.
The original question was not specific to trad, and some of you are arguing about trad while others are sticking to the subject generally.
Trad climbers tend to use longer, less stiff runners than sport climbers, which presumably reduces the danger of back-clipping, since in a fall, the back-clipped biner would be more likely to move out of the way when the rope hits it than for the gate to open. However, if you are using stiff draws on gear you should probably be just as careful not to back-clip as you are when sport climbing; and it should go without saying that if you are climbing above a bolt on a traditional climb, then you should avoid backclipping just as if it were a sport climb, especially since bolted trad climbs tend to be run out.
-Jay
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curt
Oct 14, 2004, 2:57 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: jt: We're talking about back clipping on trad, not sport. The original question was not specific to trad, and some of you are arguing about trad while others are sticking to the subject generally. Trad climbers tend to use longer, less stiff runners than sport climbers, which presumably reduces the danger of back-clipping, since in a fall, the back-clipped biner would be more likely to move out of the way when the rope hits it than for the gate to open. However, if you are using stiff draws on gear you should probably be just as careful not to back-clip as you are when sport climbing; and it should go without saying that if you are climbing above a bolt on a traditional climb, then you should avoid backclipping just as if it were a sport climb, especially since bolted trad climbs tend to be run out. -Jay
Jay,
Have you honestly ever seen this happen? I mean a backclipped carabiner coming detatched from a rope in a fall? I don't mean some third party story either--have you actually seen this happen in your 20 years of climbing? Because nobody I know has.
Curt
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jt512
Oct 14, 2004, 3:18 AM
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In reply to: Have you honestly ever seen this happen? I mean a backclipped carabiner coming detatched from a rope in a fall? I don't mean some third party story either--have you actually seen this happen in your 20 years of climbing? Because nobody I know has. Curt
I haven't seen or heard of it happening, but the only reason for this, I believe, is that those who fall often -- ie, sport climbers -- don't back clip, and those who back clip -- ie, some long-time trad climbers -- don't fall often.
To me, the danger is obvious. You can easily picture how the rope could unclip if back clipped; indeed, as I said above, I've seen a situation in which I think the rope would most likely have unclipped, quite possibly from multiple biners, had the leader actually fallen. Furthermore, you can replicate the mechanism by just flicking a rope that has been backclipped across the the gate of a biner by hand. This danger is widely recognized, to the point, that essentially no sport climber backclips, and consequently there are no cases of unclipping to observe.
-Jay
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