...I asked him what he thought, and he told me it was bad practice to do this...

The only correct answer to this question is.....IT DEPENDS!!!

The prudent use of slings is something everyone should master.

Bad practice? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

josh

Dirtineye...elitism not appreciated. Regardless, I'm not trying to save weight, but more so, limiting the amount of a fall I would take if such a thing occured. I just wanted to know whether or not it was frowned upon or not. Yes, it depends...I know this from experience, but sometimes I find myself in a place where I don't see an extension as neccessary. My thought is that if they were designed with clipping in mind...why don't people do it?

First, the Goran Krop accident was possibly caused by short clipping, his belayer said they were using short sport draws and that he wished they had taken the time to switch out the biners to slings. So, I'm not being elitist, but in fact an elite climber lost his life...
...

THere ain't no trad draws, they're called slings, and SportTards should stick to clipping bolts with their little dog bones.

The only correct answer to this question is.....IT DEPENDS!!!

The prudent use of slings is something everyone should master.

Bad practice? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

josh

Dirtineye...elitism not appreciated.

ot being elitist, then what do you call this?


Trolling, perhaps?

Not much more can really be said intelligently. Of course, that hasn't stopped anyone from doing so.

Curt

[..][..]
From what you say about the cause of cam walking, I'm thinking you just don't get it.

Dirtineye...elitism not appreciated. Regardless, I'm not trying to save weight, but more so, limiting the amount of a fall I would take if such a thing occured. I just wanted to know whether or not it was frowned upon or not. Yes, it depends...I know this from experience, but sometimes I find myself in a place where I don't see an extension as neccessary. My thought is that if they were designed with clipping in mind...why don't people do it?

People do it all the time, but the normal well adjusted happy climber is less likely to post you an answer than the head up their a$$ miserable, style-police who think they have a prescription for every situation. If you thought it was OK, and it doesent cause rope drag, then you are the one who was right, its possible your second was being bamboozled by the very same style-police who regularly post stupid answers to sensible questions such as yours.

There are too many things that can go wrong to consider short clipping in 99.9% of placements. It's a 1 in a 1000 placement that would warrant short clipping (and most of those occurances are in perfectly vertical cracks (Indian Creek, Devil's Tower, et al.)).

THE point is that people short clip when they shouldn't they think it is OK, and then they lose gear or get injured and wonder what happened.

If 999 out of 1000 of your cam placements require extension, then I assume you never climb at Indian Creek, Devils Tower, Zion, Yosemite, Squamish, etc...

It is my opinion that leaders that rarely on-sight hard 5.10 are commonly clipping too short. Just my opinion based on what I've observed.

david yount.

Funny, I've observed just the opposite. I've often seen leaders flame out by placing unnessesary draws or slings while climbing strenuous cruxes.

I'm not talking about style, whether the climber sends or hangs, whether the climber acheives the top or has to be lowered off. I'm talking about safety, as I see it.

david yount.

I just wanted to know whether or not it was frowned upon or not.

I carry lotsa single runners and lotsa double runners, more than anybody I've climbed with. And I also climb on 70-meter ropes and love to connect two pitches, all the time. I've even connected three pitches on several routes!

When I'm stretching my 70-meter I'm sure glad I used full length slings, even in Yosemite and Squamish, and especially when adventure climbing.

If I owned DMM cams I would virutally never clip the extendable sling, I would still add a single runner. But not many leaders stretch a 70-meter rope. I admit that my chosen climbing style does not reflect any absolute paradigm of safety, but I think about safety and am always willing to learn or re-evaluate my decisions.

I agree with the obviously accurate statement that sometimes safety is increased with a shorter sling and sometimes it isn't. It depends.

It is my opinion that leaders that rarely on-sight hard 5.10 are commonly clipping too short. Just my opinion based on what I've observed.

david yount.

How stylish is it to climb a trad climb as if it were a sport climb anyway? Clip n go does not transfer well to plug and go. (Short clipping and direct clipping are closely related to this.) People get really hurt climbing in this fashion.

In my book, safety is good style. Awareness of fall consequences is good style. Going home in one piece is good style.

I'm not talking about style, whether the climber sends or hangs, whether the climber acheives the top or has to be lowered off. I'm talking about safety, as I see it.

david yount.

You seem to be confusing style with things that have nothing to do with style whatsoever. Good style is doing a big route in a push versus siege tactics. Good style is carrying your crap off a big wall. Good style is trying to climb as clean as possible.

Clipping draws to a cam so as to not look like a sport climber is vanity, not style.

As for the safety issue, you have yet to conclusively demonstrate that it is unsafe to clip short to cams under all circumstances. The point is that, sometimes, clip n go does transfer to plug n go, especially on harder straight-up crack lines.

I certainly agree that there are times when short-clipping can be unsafe. However, it's patently ridiculous to suggest that this is the case all, or even most of the time.

You seem to be confusing style with things that have nothing to do with style whatsoever.

And to you other fools that think David Yount needs to get a clue, GO SOAK YOUR HEADS!

Yount's posts are just about all outstanding. Period.

It sounds like you are just using one cam as a belay. Is that what you are doing? If so thats horrible...

YOu know, you are a clueeless moron and your drivel does not deserve comment. Why don;t you bother to actaully READ what I posted ( I even said I short clip sometimes you freaking idiot) and then see if you can get out a few complete senetences that are on topic, as opposed to poking at some straw man of your own choosing?

So the pot calls the kettle black.

Pathetic, really. Frustration that you can't clearly state your point, and then anger when someone calls you on the substance of your posts. Might I suggest a freshman-level English composition course to help you more succinctly present your views. It may have the added bonus of preventing you from looking like an imbecile as above.

I'll point out that cams can be placed in tensioned oppposition the same as nuts, only it's easier with cams, and this can stop walking cold for a critical placement.

Christ! I never remember this. Thanks for the reminder!!

Instead, I'll use passive gear for the secondary piece. Then depend on clove hitches in single strand of webbing at each biner. Hopefully I'll remember this lesson.

david yount.

Sorry guys... didn't mean to intrude on your circle jerk.

Carry on....

I carry lotsa single runners and lotsa double runners, more than anybody I've climbed with. And I also climb on 70-meter ropes and love to connect two pitches, all the time. I've even connected three pitches on several routes!

When I'm stretching my 70-meter I'm sure glad I used full length slings, even in Yosemite and Squamish, and especially when adventure climbing.

If I owned DMM cams I would virutally never clip the extendable sling, I would still add a single runner.

But not many leaders stretch a 70-meter rope. I admit that my chosen climbing style does not reflect any absolute paradigm of safety, but I think about safety and am always willing to learn or re-evaluate my decisions.

I agree with the obviously accurate statement that sometimes safety is increased with a shorter sling and sometimes it isn't. It depends.

It is my opinion that leaders that rarely on-sight hard 5.10 are commonly clipping too short. Just my opinion based on what I've observed.

david yount.

WTF?? what does the level at which I climb, or anyone else in this discussion, have anything to do with anything in this discussion? Unless we're engaging in a "you disagree, therefore you must not climb really hard" weenie waving?

Hmm, yeah. That line has got to be explained. After several "WTF" I understand it would have been wiser and far easier to never have written it. I did a poor job of saying what I was trying to communicate.

[ snipped other stuff ]

I wasn't try to construct an elitist platitude. I apologize.

In my observations over many years I've seen newer leaders struggle harder with constructing a straight rope path and with not jiggling their placements. I should have stuck with "newer" and left out any reference to ratings, I guess.

david yount.

On the same route, I have observed climbers that don't lead 5.10 create a running belay with sharper corners in the rope's path. They are clipping shorter. I see short draws at the end of a straight up segment which turns into a traverse. I see short draws on the one piece that is horizontally offset to the rest of the straight up route. I see short draws on pieces that are in the face directly beneath a roof and the line pulls the roof. Not always, but often.

I must say I was really suprised by an earlier comment you made that you almost never clip into the extended DMM runner. I personally don't like DMM cams very much and only own one or two, but if I used them I would take advantage of the feature all the time. I wish all SLCD companies would do this.