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sustainedclimber
Oct 16, 2004, 1:43 AM
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Ok, I didn't mean to start a fight, which on this site seems inevitable, but I just was taken aback by the bashing of miniscule references I made, such as trad draws. This is a term I have heard and used because it's just what I've been exposed to. Yes I sport climb, but I have very quickly become a trad junky, and it's very annoying to get talked down to, even if I do have less experience. The attitude is just not needed.
Thanks to people who have responded to my question, and I want all to know that I'm well aware of why or why not to extend, (i.e. biners on edges, rope drag, walking, etc.) the question was more of if it's possible considering all of these circumstances, why not do it?
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112
Oct 16, 2004, 2:17 AM
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More often than not I can find a cam placement that won't walk, but as stated by others rope position on the rock or just plain drag from the biners is usually the reason to extend. Straight up vertical routes, no issue. Wandering routes, big issue.
That said, I have had a couple peices pull on me in the past, but even a 4 foot runner wouldn't have prevented it (one of them even had a 4 foot runner on it). Now I set multi-directionals in those cases.
Sometimes the longest runner in the world won't stop a peice from walking or pulling. Sometimes you just need a multi-directional anchor. If you don't use this technique, learn to, it will save your arse.
Ken
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curt
Oct 16, 2004, 2:24 AM
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In reply to: The only correct answer to this question is.....IT DEPENDS!!! The prudent use of slings is something everyone should master. Bad practice? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. josh
Not much more can really be said intelligently. Of course, that hasn't stopped anyone from doing so.
Curt
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dirtineye
Oct 16, 2004, 2:41 AM
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[quote="jcinco"]In reply to: Dirtineye...elitism not appreciated.
In reply to: ot being elitist, then what do you call this? In reply to: THere ain't no trad draws, they're called slings, and SportTards should stick to clipping bolts with their little dog bones. Trolling, perhaps?
NO, that's not eltist or trolling, it's a warning to stupid sport climbers who think all they need to do to trad is buy some gear and clip their dogbones to em.
From what you say about the cause of cam walking, I'm thinking you just don't get it.
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112
Oct 16, 2004, 2:44 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: The only correct answer to this question is.....IT DEPENDS!!! The prudent use of slings is something everyone should master. Bad practice? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. josh Not much more can really be said intelligently. Of course, that hasn't stopped anyone from doing so. Curt
It depends!!!
the prudent use of replies is something everyone should master.
Intelligent replies? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
Ken
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coylec
Oct 16, 2004, 5:07 AM
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[quote="dirtineye"]In reply to: In reply to: Dirtineye...elitism not appreciated. [..] In reply to: [..] Trolling, perhaps? [..] From what you say about the cause of cam walking, I'm thinking you just don't get it.
Mistakes at height are a very quick way to die. You need to extend your pieces ... placed protection doesn't work like a bolt, and you can't treat it that way. There are too many things that can go wrong to consider short clipping in 99.9% of placements. It's a 1 in a 1000 placement that would warrant short clipping (and most of those occurances are in perfectly vertical cracks (Indian Creek, Devil's Tower, et al.)).
coylec
coylec
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keithlester
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Oct 20, 2004, 2:54 PM
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In reply to: Dirtineye...elitism not appreciated. Regardless, I'm not trying to save weight, but more so, limiting the amount of a fall I would take if such a thing occured. I just wanted to know whether or not it was frowned upon or not. Yes, it depends...I know this from experience, but sometimes I find myself in a place where I don't see an extension as neccessary. My thought is that if they were designed with clipping in mind...why don't people do it?
People do it all the time, but the normal well adjusted happy climber is less likely to post you an answer than the head up their a$$ miserable, style-police who think they have a prescription for every situation. If you thought it was OK, and it doesent cause rope drag, then you are the one who was right, its possible your second was being bamboozled by the very same style-police who regularly post stupid answers to sensible questions such as yours.
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dirtineye
Oct 20, 2004, 3:50 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Dirtineye...elitism not appreciated. Regardless, I'm not trying to save weight, but more so, limiting the amount of a fall I would take if such a thing occured. I just wanted to know whether or not it was frowned upon or not. Yes, it depends...I know this from experience, but sometimes I find myself in a place where I don't see an extension as neccessary. My thought is that if they were designed with clipping in mind...why don't people do it? People do it all the time, but the normal well adjusted happy climber is less likely to post you an answer than the head up their a$$ miserable, style-police who think they have a prescription for every situation. If you thought it was OK, and it doesent cause rope drag, then you are the one who was right, its possible your second was being bamboozled by the very same style-police who regularly post stupid answers to sensible questions such as yours.
THE point is that people short clip when they shouldn't they think it is OK, and then they lose gear or get injured and wonder what happened. THis points out that not everyone knows when it is OK to do and when it is not.
IT's nothing to do with style, it's got everything to do with climbing smart.
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jcinco
Oct 20, 2004, 4:59 PM
Post #34 of 60
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In reply to: There are too many things that can go wrong to consider short clipping in 99.9% of placements. It's a 1 in a 1000 placement that would warrant short clipping (and most of those occurances are in perfectly vertical cracks (Indian Creek, Devil's Tower, et al.)).
If 999 out of 1000 of your cam placements require extension, then I assume you never climb at Indian Creek, Devils Tower, Zion, Yosemite, Squamish, etc... where it is the exception, rather than the rule, that cams are extended. These areas are characterized by straight up, non-flaring, cracks, where even if the cam walks, it will not walk out of a good placement. If you haven't been to any of these areas, then I suggest you go, and watch what the experienced climbers do on hard crack lines.
Some cam placements warrant runnering (traverses, roofs, where walking out/getting stuck could happen), obviously, but clearly there are situations, WAY more frequent than 1 in a 1000, that don't require a runner/draw.
In reply to: THE point is that people short clip when they shouldn't they think it is OK, and then they lose gear or get injured and wonder what happened.
I agree that new leaders need to learn how to runner properly. But saying that all cam placements, without exception, need to be extended, is just wrong. It has nothing to do with being a "SportTard" :roll:. Learning when to runner, and when you don't need to, is a key aspect of becoming an experienced trad leader (see my earlier rules of thumb).
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takeme
Oct 20, 2004, 6:44 PM
Post #35 of 60
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In reply to: In reply to: There are too many things that can go wrong to consider short clipping in 99.9% of placements. It's a 1 in a 1000 placement that would warrant short clipping (and most of those occurances are in perfectly vertical cracks (Indian Creek, Devil's Tower, et al.)). If 999 out of 1000 of your cam placements require extension, then I assume you never climb at Indian Creek, Devils Tower, Zion, Yosemite, Squamish, etc...
Joe, I'm going to add Eldo, RMNP, the Winds, the Black Canyon, etc. to that list. I short-clip cams all the time (I'm sure you do too, but some of the posts in this thread are starting to get ridiculous), not merely on straight-up cracks and pitches that don't wander. If I'm at my limit and placing cams, I'm most likely short-clipping to save energy. I've taken plenty of trad lead falls in the 3-25 foot range and while I've pulled the top piece a couple of times, I have yet to encounter any zipper effect. I also don't mind dealing with a bit of rope drag.
It should, but apparently doesn't go without saying that there are also times when short-clipping is not recommended.
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david.yount
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Oct 21, 2004, 3:34 PM
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I carry lotsa single runners and lotsa double runners, more than anybody I've climbed with. And I also climb on 70-meter ropes and love to connect two pitches, all the time. I've even connected three pitches on several routes!
When I'm stretching my 70-meter I'm sure glad I used full length slings, even in Yosemite and Squamish, and especially when adventure climbing.
If I owned DMM cams I would virutally never clip the extendable sling, I would still add a single runner. But not many leaders stretch a 70-meter rope. I admit that my chosen climbing style does not reflect any absolute paradigm of safety, but I think about safety and am always willing to learn or re-evaluate my decisions.
I agree with the obviously accurate statement that sometimes safety is increased with a shorter sling and sometimes it isn't. It depends.
It is my opinion that leaders that rarely on-sight hard 5.10 are commonly clipping too short. Just my opinion based on what I've observed.
david yount.
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takeme
Oct 21, 2004, 5:08 PM
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In reply to: It is my opinion that leaders that rarely on-sight hard 5.10 are commonly clipping too short. Just my opinion based on what I've observed. david yount.
Funny, I've observed just the opposite. I've often seen leaders flame out by placing unnessesary draws or slings while climbing strenuous cruxes.
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david.yount
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Oct 21, 2004, 5:11 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: It is my opinion that leaders that rarely on-sight hard 5.10 are commonly clipping too short. Just my opinion based on what I've observed. david yount. Funny, I've observed just the opposite. I've often seen leaders flame out by placing unnessesary draws or slings while climbing strenuous cruxes.
david yount.
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dirtineye
Oct 22, 2004, 4:43 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: It is my opinion that leaders that rarely on-sight hard 5.10 are commonly clipping too short. Just my opinion based on what I've observed. david yount. Funny, I've observed just the opposite. I've often seen leaders flame out by placing unnessesary draws or slings while climbing strenuous cruxes. I'm not talking about style, whether the climber sends or hangs, whether the climber acheives the top or has to be lowered off. I'm talking about safety, as I see it. david yount.
DY, you're hitting on an important theme-- that somehow in some minds style and safety have seemingly become mutually exclusive. If a climber can't afford to place good safe gear and still have the climb well in hand, then maybe they are climbing over their head.
How stylish is it to climb a trad climb as if it were a sport climb anyway? Clip n go does not transfer well to plug and go. (Short clipping and direct clipping are closely related to this.) People get really hurt climbing in this fashion.
In my book, safety is good style. Awareness of fall consequences is good style. Going home in one piece is good style.
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sharpender
Oct 22, 2004, 5:43 PM
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sustainedclimber wrote"In reply to: I just wanted to know whether or not it was frowned upon or not.
What the heck does this have to do with placing pro? It's not highschool, it's not work, it's not the social club. It's your life and your climb. Follow the advice of the trad climbers, "it depends" on exactly all the things they said. I have the DMM cams and use the slings (they are designed to catch the weight). Access (sic) the placement, the direction of the route, the pull on the sling, the potential rope drag and choose the length of sling needed. Sometimes you want a shorter sling but must use a longer one to prevent rope drag so you sacrifice the ideal for the practical but it's got nothing to do with it's frowned upon. It's about the safety of the route - for the leader and second. Period.
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nabisco
Oct 22, 2004, 7:03 PM
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Yes indeed it depends, however there are some general guidelines to follow .Safety in my opinion is of the 1st and formost importance, not wheather I pulled off a hard lead or not. I extend gear anytime I think there might be the slightest chance of rope drag or possiblility of walking. Carry at least 6-8 shoulder length slings on every climb that isnt striaght up. I have been at the top of too many climbs that I did'nt runner up and fould myself pulling on the rope what seems to amount to 50 or 60 lbs. weight. runners wiegh practically nothing.
My basic rule of thumb is If the route wanders, traverses, or the piece is in a flaring crack ---extend it. If the gear has double sling as the DMM's do -use it. Thats what they are designed for. if its still not long enough extend it more. don't clip two biners together.. If you are short on biners girth hitch your shoulder length runners to the sling on the gear and use the biner to clip into the rope. I use this method on single pitch routes that I have plenty of time to climb. Not such a good idea on multipitch as it takes a little extra time to rerack.
wheather or not to extend is on piece by peice basis. be aware of what is comming up. For example a route may start out going straight up and then wander twards the top, or visaversa. If the crack is'nt flaring go ahead and clip into the preslung sling on the straight up section and start extending near the top part when the route starts to meander. Fall length because of the extra runner should not be concern unless there is a ledge or tree that you could hit on the way down. If this is a possibility it may be worthwhile to short clip and risk the possibility of the cam walking a bit. Just be AWARE and stay safe and focused
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jcinco
Oct 22, 2004, 7:12 PM
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In reply to: I carry lotsa single runners and lotsa double runners, more than anybody I've climbed with. And I also climb on 70-meter ropes and love to connect two pitches, all the time. I've even connected three pitches on several routes! When I'm stretching my 70-meter I'm sure glad I used full length slings, even in Yosemite and Squamish, and especially when adventure climbing. If I owned DMM cams I would virutally never clip the extendable sling, I would still add a single runner. But not many leaders stretch a 70-meter rope. I admit that my chosen climbing style does not reflect any absolute paradigm of safety, but I think about safety and am always willing to learn or re-evaluate my decisions. I agree with the obviously accurate statement that sometimes safety is increased with a shorter sling and sometimes it isn't. It depends.
I'm with you up to here. Good points.
In reply to: It is my opinion that leaders that rarely on-sight hard 5.10 are commonly clipping too short. Just my opinion based on what I've observed. david yount.
However, this last statement invalidates any credibility you earned with your, up till then, intelligent post.
Get a clue.
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jcinco
Oct 22, 2004, 7:42 PM
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In reply to: How stylish is it to climb a trad climb as if it were a sport climb anyway? Clip n go does not transfer well to plug and go. (Short clipping and direct clipping are closely related to this.) People get really hurt climbing in this fashion. In my book, safety is good style. Awareness of fall consequences is good style. Going home in one piece is good style.
You seem to be confusing style with things that have nothing to do with style whatsoever. Good style is doing a big route in a push versus siege tactics. Good style is carrying your crap off a big wall. Good style is trying to climb as clean as possible.
Clipping draws to a cam so as to not look like a sport climber is vanity, not style.
As for the safety issue, you have yet to conclusively demonstrate that it is unsafe to clip short to cams under all circumstances. The point is that, sometimes, clip n go does transfer to plug n go, especially on harder straight-up crack lines.
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takeme
Oct 22, 2004, 11:44 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: It is my opinion that leaders that rarely on-sight hard 5.10 are commonly clipping too short. Just my opinion based on what I've observed. david yount. Funny, I've observed just the opposite. I've often seen leaders flame out by placing unnessesary draws or slings while climbing strenuous cruxes. I'm not talking about style, whether the climber sends or hangs, whether the climber acheives the top or has to be lowered off. I'm talking about safety, as I see it. david yount.
Umm, you said, "leaders that rarely on-sight 5.10". You're talking about style, not safety.
But speaking of safety. I certainly agree that there are times when short-clipping can be unsafe. However, it's patently ridiculous to suggest that this is the case all, or even most of the time. Yes, it's probably better for beginning leaders to err on the side of caution. But I read ANAM religiously every year, and I can't recall, off the top of my head, a single instance where short-clipping was cited as the primary cause of an accident. I'm not saying it's never caused or contributed to an accident, I'm saying that a number of people in this thread are blowing it way out of proportion and ignorantly insisting that short-clipping can never be safe.
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dirtineye
Oct 23, 2004, 5:57 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: How stylish is it to climb a trad climb as if it were a sport climb anyway? Clip n go does not transfer well to plug and go. (Short clipping and direct clipping are closely related to this.) People get really hurt climbing in this fashion. In my book, safety is good style. Awareness of fall consequences is good style. Going home in one piece is good style. You seem to be confusing style with things that have nothing to do with style whatsoever. Good style is doing a big route in a push versus siege tactics. Good style is carrying your crap off a big wall. Good style is trying to climb as clean as possible. Clipping draws to a cam so as to not look like a sport climber is vanity, not style. As for the safety issue, you have yet to conclusively demonstrate that it is unsafe to clip short to cams under all circumstances. The point is that, sometimes, clip n go does transfer to plug n go, especially on harder straight-up crack lines.
YOu know, you are a clueeless moron and your drivel does not deserve comment. Why don;t you bother to actaully READ what I posted ( I even said I short clip sometimes you freaking idiot) and then see if you can get out a few complete senetences that are on topic, as opposed to poking at some straw man of your own choosing?
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dirtineye
Oct 23, 2004, 6:00 AM
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And to you other fools that think David Yount needs to get a clue, GO SOAK YOUR HEADS!
Yount's posts are just about all outstanding. Period.
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david.yount
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Oct 23, 2004, 4:18 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I admit that my chosen climbing style does not reflect any absolute paradigm of safety, but I think about safety and am always willing to learn or re-evaluate my decisions. I agree with the obviously accurate statement that sometimes safety is increased with a shorter sling and sometimes it isn't. It depends. It is my opinion that leaders that rarely on-sight hard 5.10 are commonly clipping too short. Just my opinion based on what I've observed. I certainly agree that there are times when short-clipping can be unsafe. However, it's patently ridiculous to suggest that this is the case all, or even most of the time.
In reply to: In reply to: How stylish is it to climb a trad climb as if it were a sport climb anyway? Clip n go does not transfer well to plug and go. (Short clipping and direct clipping are closely related to this.) People get really hurt climbing in this fashion. In my book, safety is good style. Awareness of fall consequences is good style. Going home in one piece is good style. You seem to be confusing style with things that have nothing to do with style whatsoever.
david yount.
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takeme
Oct 23, 2004, 5:26 PM
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In reply to: And to you other fools that think David Yount needs to get a clue, GO SOAK YOUR HEADS! Yount's posts are just about all outstanding. Period.
Forget about getting a clue, I just wish he would say what he means.
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irockclimbtoo
Oct 25, 2004, 12:15 AM
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ab
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caughtinside
Oct 25, 2004, 1:28 AM
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In reply to: It sounds like you are just using one cam as a belay. Is that what you are doing? If so thats horrible...
Good stuff.
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