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Conservatives - why do you support Bush?
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hugepedro


Oct 17, 2004, 10:07 PM
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Conservatives - why do you support Bush?
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It seems to me that many of Bush's policies, both at home and abroad, are completely antithetical to traditional Conservative principles. Ignoring the domestic issues for now, I’d like to ask why you support him in regard to his execution of the Iraq war.

First of all, he’s engaging in nation-building on a scale we haven’t seen in a long time, which is normally a Conservative no-no. Add to that the fact that he seems to be screwing it up royally. (Please read the pasted article below. I know it’s long, but it’s well worth the read.)

Secondly, he didn’t provide to the military the resources they needed to get the job done properly, another huge Conservative no-no. By this I mean that he basically abandoned the Powell Doctrine and went in there with far less strength than we had in Gulf War 1. Additionally, he failed diplomatically in the run-up to war, resulting in two major impacts: 1) the inability of the 4th ID to provide the hammer from the North out of Turkey, resulting in the 4th ID not even getting in the game until it was practically over, and 2) the failure to bring more significant allies to the fight, particularly Arab armies.

Given these considerable failures, why do you still think he is qualified to be Commander in Chief? Or is there some other reason you support him, something you see as a higher priority and therefore are willing to overlook his failures as a military leader? Or do you think his decisions and actions in Iraq are not failures at all, and if so, why?

I am genuinely curious.

In reply to:
Studies describe situation in Iraq

By CHARLES J. HANLEY | Associated Press
October 17, 2004

The blood of Fallujah, the thunder of Baghdad and the daily struggles of life have been distilled in columns of numbers and pages of dry prose. The experts have taken a hard look at Iraq, and they don't like what they see.

Recent in-depth studies -- by official auditors and unofficial watchdogs, by economists and lawyers, by pollsters, political scientists and ex-Pentagon aides -- find a few good economic signs and some cause for hope in January's planned elections. Even more, however, they find dashed expectations and rising fears, missed deadlines, mismanaged money and grand schemes lost in the smoke of car bombs and air strikes.

With Iraq so unstable, "there are questions about what options and contingency plans are being developed to address these ongoing and future challenges," the U.S. Government Accountability Office observes in a report to Congress.

Anthony H. Cordesman is more blunt. In many ways, the U.S. occupation has been "a dismal failure," this veteran national-security analyst says.

His colleagues at Washington's Center for Strategic and International Studies -- in a separate 102-page analysis -- note that "failure" and "success" are sensitive words as the U.S. presidential election nears. Nonetheless, they conclude, Iraq "will not be a 'success' for a long time."

The Associated Press reviewed a dozen such status reports against the backdrop of nonstop violence in Baghdad and sharpening rhetoric in Washington. The studies were conducted by U.S. government agencies and private international and U.S. research organizations, in some cases drawn from months of work and hundreds of interviews inside Iraq.

Again and again, their focus falls on what the authoritative International Crisis Group calls Iraq's "vicious circle."

"Lack of security leads to lack of reconstruction, which leads to lack of jobs, which leads back to lack of security," the European-based ICG finds.

Perhaps 60 percent of Iraq doesn't have work. With no jobs, more Iraqis turn to armed resistance out of resentment of the occupiers and sometimes for money. Insurgents will pay a man up to $100 to attack a U.S. patrol, the CSIS says.

Security has spiraled downward since the U.S.-British invasion of March 2003. Iraqis see and hear it around them -- in the car bombings, kidnappings, highway banditry and in the unrelenting mortar, rocket and roadside-bomb attacks on the U.S. military. From a handful a day in mid-2003, those anti-U.S. assaults have exploded to more than 70 on average every day last month.

The GAO report, Rebuilding Iraq, describes what happened: "The insurgents' targets expanded. ... The group of insurgents grew. ... The areas of instability expanded" -- from Fallujah and the Iraqi heartland to Mosul in the north, to Najaf and Basra in the south.

Along the way, the total of U.S. military dead rose to above 1,060, with more than 7,100 wounded. Last month, American deaths averaged three a day. More and more, Iraq's U.S.-supported interim government is also a target. An estimated 750 Iraqi policemen have been killed.

Iraqi civilians have suffered the most. Washington's Brookings Institution notes that unofficial estimates range from 13,000 to 30,000 civilians killed by acts of war since the invasion, by both U.S. coalition forces and anti-U.S. fighters and terrorists. No reliable count exists for insurgents killed.

The studies, issued between June and September, repeatedly suggest that two steps taken by the Bush administration last year fed the uprising: the disbanding of Iraq's 400,000-man military, and the stripping of government and other jobs from 30,000 members of the old regime's Baath Party.

"Abruptly terminating the livelihoods of these men created a vast pool of humiliated, antagonized and politicized men," says Faleh A. Jabar of the U.S. Institute of Peace. "Serious policy blunders," concludes Carl Conetta of Boston's Project on Defense Alternatives.

As the guerrilla war intensified, the U.S. leadership reached a turning point last April, canceling the planned pullout of some U.S. troops, deciding to keep a force of 138,000 in Iraq until at least 2006. "How many more U.S. or other multinational force troops would be needed if the security situation were to deteriorate further?" the GAO asks.

That deterioration did more than kill people. It also paralyzed much of the U.S. effort to rebuild a society crippled by wars and U.N. sanctions.

"We can't even get out of the Green Zone," one reconstruction official lamented to ICG interviewers, referring to the bunkered Baghdad enclave where the Americans are headquartered.

Even in its makeshift Green Zone offices, the U.S. occupation had problems, Washington auditors found.

The occupation administration, which evolved into a U.S. Embassy this June, usually had only two-thirds of the staff it needed, the GAO reports. And many of those were unqualified.

Outside auditors eventually found, for example, that the Americans operated one $600 million fund, of Iraq's own money, with poor controls and accountability. The occupation's inspector general determined that 67 percent of one group of purchase contracts had incomplete or missing documentation.

It was "a picture of disorder and negligence," says Iraq Revenue Watch, an unofficial U.S. monitoring group. The inspector general says the mismanagement was "not surprising," in view of the "daunting challenges."

From the start, amid postwar looting and arson, some of the most daunting were restoring power, water and sanitation. The Americans' failure to deliver decent living conditions damaged their standing with the Iraqi people. Recent data "suggest a rather severe backward trend" in those areas, the CSIS team reports.

It took months for the electricity system to regain its prewar generating capacity of 4,500 megawatts. Iraq is still 1,500 megawatts short of the target of 6,000 set for last July 1 -- and far short, the GAO notes, of the 7,000-8,000 megawatts Iraq needs.

As a result, much of the country goes for hours each day without power.

This "raises concerns about the ability of the coalition to support power-dependent infrastructure, improve Iraq's economy and promote stability in Iraq," the U.S. auditors say.

For ordinary Iraqis, the concerns turn real at the water tap.

The power shortage means Iraq's water-treatment plants still don't operate at prewar levels, ICG reports. Its sewage-treatment plants are no better, the CSIS says, dumping untreated waste into Iraq's rivers, the source of much piped water.

The contaminated water is claiming victims: Health officials last month said scores of Iraqis were stricken with hepatitis E in at least two poor districts. Meanwhile, of $786 million in a U.S. reconstruction fund for hospitals, clinics and equipment, only $2 million has been spent. As for schools, although 3,100 have been renovated, an additional 12,000 need to be rebuilt or repaired, the State Department says in its latest Iraq Weekly Status Report.

Up and down the budget tables, reality falls far short of plans.

In all, of $18.4 billion approved by Congress for Iraq reconstruction in 2004, only $1.2 billion has been spent. Even that $18.4 billion in aid is just a start: Joint U.S.-U.N. estimates see $55 billion needed over four years.

Little help is coming from elsewhere, in a world largely alienated when President Bush defied the United Nations to wage war on Iraq. Of $13.6 billion in Iraqi aid pledged by 37 countries a year ago, less than $1 billion has materialized.

Signs of economic revival can be found, and ICG's 28,000-word analysis cites some:

• Planeloads of U.S. cash boosted civil servants' salaries sharply, spurring sales of cars and other consumer items; telephone service has more than doubled from prewar levels; real-estate prices quintupled, and yet inflation is still in check.

• Despite more than 100 attacks on oil targets, daily production is back up to 2.5 million barrels of crude.

That's still short of the prewar average of almost 3 million barrels, however, and "wholly inadequate to Iraq's needs," Jabar's U.S. Institute of Peace report says.

Studies conclude that whatever the gains, they're overshadowed by $120 billion in Iraqi foreign debt, much of which will have to be repaid, and outweighed by the mass of Iraq's unemployed.

Hard numbers are lacking, but the CSIS team's report, Progress or Peril?, says unofficial estimates on unemployment range from 25 to 60 percent of a work force of some 7 million. Besides an army of cashiered soldiers, the jobless ranks were swelled by hundreds of thousands of workers from abandoned state-owned factories -- bombed in the invasion or looted and burned afterward.

Ambitious to remake Iraq, the Bush administration dispatched U.S. business planners to Baghdad last year to apply "shock therapy" privatization to the old state-dominated economy, selling off industries to foreigners if necessary.

But the Iraqis resisted, few buyers appeared, and in the end, the U.S. occupation "neither privatized nor relinquished the objective," ICG's Reconstructing Iraq says. "As a result, it failed to devise an alternative approach that might have revived ailing state companies."

Putting masses of jobless to work on reconstruction proved too ambitious a goal. The U.S. Embassy in Baghdad reported Oct. 7 that of 2,400 U.S.-financed projects planned, just 373 are under way.

"We are, in fact, trying to construct under some extremely adverse circumstances," embassy construction chief Charles Hess acknowledged. Skilled foreign workers have been fleeing for months.

The circumstances led the U.S. government on Sept. 29 to take one more step in the "vicious circle," shifting $3.46 billion from electric and water repair to other tasks, primarily security.


curt


Oct 17, 2004, 11:36 PM
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Thinking that Kerry may be even worse--does not constitute support for Bush. You may be confusing the two.

Curt


Partner tgreene


Oct 18, 2004, 12:10 AM
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I don't support Bush as much as I do the Republican party as a whole... Living in Illinois, I have seen first hand what the Democrats have attempted to do here in regards to firearms, and I've also seen what they have done to California.

While I'm certainly not a single issue voter, there are and always will be issues that hold more weight than others.

I also feel that the President should be a moral leader as well; thus adulterers and millionaire playboys that marry for money need not apply!


fecalquisinart


Oct 18, 2004, 12:22 AM
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Because he is a man of moral clarity and convictions, who does what he says he is going to do and doesn't give a rat's ass what people think. And, he puts his trust in a Higher Authority.

Kerry, on the other hand, has no moral clarity or convictions, has aever done anything, let alone what he says he is going to do, but who knowsw what he says he is going to do or if he even knows what he is going to do or if he knows what he said he knows he is going to do or what side of what issue he thinks he says he is going to do or...you get my point. And, John Kerry trusts in himself.


roadman33


Oct 18, 2004, 12:30 AM
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Yeah BUSH SUCKS

His whole Family SUCKS

Yo Neil S&L 1 billion we paid to save his BuSH ass
Little B that is about to get sent back to Tahass
Well Where to start

Nope To much if you can't find 7 trillion resons to vote that fool out I can't help you.

If you like Bush so mush all ya all can head down to texas cause that's where he'll be in 2 weeks to stay

FEAR MORE YEARS

Oh I wish I could have told the tail of the time when Americans would be so brainwashed. With a little more education in this country maybe we won't let people like Bush breed.

Glad I could waste a little of your time reading this!


curt


Oct 18, 2004, 12:35 AM
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In reply to:
Because he is a man of moral clarity and convictions, who does what he says he is going to do and doesn't give a rat's ass what people think. And, he puts his trust in a Higher Authority.

So, GWB thinks he is doing what God tells him to do? So do the Taliban and Osama. That thought scares the crap out of me, frankly. Anyone who can ignore secular law to do what "God wants them to do" is extremely dangerous.

Curt


fecalquisinart


Oct 18, 2004, 2:04 AM
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No Curt...you have that wrong. He prays that he will do the right thing. Didn't you hear his answer during the debate? He never said he hears little voices from God telling him what to do. Your comparison between TRUE Christianity and the Taliban and Osama is stupid. They don't worship the same God.


shortfatoldguy


Oct 18, 2004, 2:38 AM
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^^ Oh. Well. That clears it up.

Wrong god. Got it.


shortfatoldguy


Oct 18, 2004, 2:41 AM
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Pedro, way to throw down the gauntlet in the most civilized fashion possible.

Nobody's picking it up.

Go figure.


shortfatoldguy


Oct 18, 2004, 2:45 AM
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In reply to:
I also feel that the President should be a moral leader as well; thus adulterers and millionaire playboys that marry for money need not apply!

Dude. I'm with you on gun rights, but do you really think that marrying a rich woman is worse than whoring for corporations?


curt


Oct 18, 2004, 3:00 AM
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No Curt...you have that wrong. He prays that he will do the right thing. Didn't you hear his answer during the debate? He never said he hears little voices from God telling him what to do. Your comparison between TRUE Christianity and the Taliban and Osama is stupid. They don't worship the same God.

IMO it matters little which God you worship. Osama also adds "God willing" to many of his threats. My point is that all logic and rational thought goes out the window when a person believes that he/she is doing what God wants them to.

Curt


fecalquisinart


Oct 18, 2004, 3:42 AM
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...My point is that all logic and rational thought goes out the window when a person believes that he/she is doing what God wants them to.

Curt, my man...you have a lot to learn. When you think that mere mortal humans know more than God himself, it shows that humanism has pretty much taken over your thought process. If someone prays to God for peace in their decision, and they get that peace, what is wrong with that? You really do have to differentiate between Osama's "God" and the God that TRUE Christians worship.


curt


Oct 18, 2004, 3:48 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
...My point is that all logic and rational thought goes out the window when a person believes that he/she is doing what God wants them to.

Curt, my man...you have a lot to learn. When you think that mere mortal humans know more than God himself, it shows that humanism has pretty much taken over your thought process. If someone prays to God for peace in their decision, and they get that peace, what is wrong with that? You really do have to differentiate between Osama's "God" and the God that TRUE Christians worship.

Those who worship your "true God" also burned women at the stake, as witches at Salem MA and conducted the Spanish Inquisition. Give me a break.

Curt


fecalquisinart


Oct 18, 2004, 3:52 AM
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Curt, there are wack jobs in every religion. You are making it sound like that kind of behavior is prevalent. It's not! Go to a true Christian church somewhere and you will see that they do not advocate burning folks. You are also confusing Christianity with Roman Catholicism...a common mistake among those that are uneducated about the subject.


curt


Oct 18, 2004, 4:05 AM
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In reply to:
Curt, there are wack jobs in every religion. You are making it sound like that kind of behavior is prevalent.

No, I do not mean to make it sound like that kind of behavior is prevalent--in any religion. Only that those few, who think that they are primarily answering to God, rather than secular law, are very dangerous people.

Curt


climber_chick


Oct 18, 2004, 4:18 AM
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So are you saying catholics aren't true christians? Hmm?? That's a little odd. Catholics believe in Christ. Isn't Christ the foundation of the Christian churches? Christ, Christian, Catholics believe in Christ therefore aren't they are actually Christians? How can a person confuse Christianity with Catholicism when Christianity is the entire group of churches that believe in Christ, and Roman Catholicism does indeed believe in Christ? You have confused me. :roll:


fecalquisinart


Oct 18, 2004, 4:20 AM
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Catholicism is a man-made sect. There are some Catholics who are indeed, born-again Christians. There are also Baptists, Methodists, etc., that are. Understand?


jt512


Oct 18, 2004, 4:24 AM
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Catholicism is a man-made sect.

It's a man-made sect of a man-made religion. So what?

-Jay


climber_chick


Oct 18, 2004, 4:24 AM
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There are also Baptists, Methodists, etc., that are.

That are...what?


fecalquisinart


Oct 18, 2004, 4:28 AM
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That are...what?

Read the preceding sentence.


climber_chick


Oct 18, 2004, 4:30 AM
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Ok. I don't understand the point being made.


fecalquisinart


Oct 18, 2004, 4:30 AM
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It's a man-made sect of a man-made religion.

Wrong! Not a man-made religion... Christianity was started by Jesus Christ, not by Man.


jt512


Oct 18, 2004, 4:31 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
It's a man-made sect of a man-made religion.

Wrong! Not a man-made religion... Christianity was started by Jesus Christ, not by Man.

Yeah, and the world was created in 6 days about 6000 years ago. :roll:

-Jay


fecalquisinart


Oct 18, 2004, 4:32 AM
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Ok. I don't understand the point being made.

The point being made is that Christianity is not a man-made religous organization that you join. You become a Christian by accepting Christ as your Saviour...some people then join a man-made sect to worship, etc. You can be a Christian and never be part of a man-made religion.


climber_chick


Oct 18, 2004, 4:32 AM
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Jesus Christ was a man...


climber_chick


Oct 18, 2004, 4:34 AM
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point taken


fecalquisinart


Oct 18, 2004, 4:34 AM
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Jesus Christ was a man...

He was God's son who came to this earth in the form of a man...trust me, he wasn't your basic human.


There is that jt512 guy...being his usual sarcastic self. Jay, what if you are wrong?


climber_chick


Oct 18, 2004, 4:43 AM
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Of course he wasn't an ordinary man, but he was still a man. Died like a man, breathed, spoke, walked like a man.

It's all verbiage.


fecalquisinart


Oct 18, 2004, 5:02 AM
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Died like a man,

You left out a very important point...he rose from the dead, very much unlike an ordinary man. :)


reno


Oct 18, 2004, 5:35 AM
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There is that jt512 guy...being his usual sarcastic self. Jay, what if you are wrong?

How can someone's beliefs be wrong?

We're talking about spirituality, not science. Since spirituality is based on unprovable concepts, they can not be "wrong" as there is no proof that one is "right."


curt


Oct 18, 2004, 5:38 AM
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In reply to:
Died like a man,

You left out a very important point...he rose from the dead, very much unlike an ordinary man. :)

Well, if you choose to believe that, in its literal sense, that is OK. If, instead, you believe this to be more a parable of the resurrection--that is OK too.

Curt


epic_ed


Oct 18, 2004, 6:51 AM
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Why do I support George Bush?

- Because I have a lot of stock in oil futures. I mean, that's why G-Dub went to war right? The oil? I'm just sittin back waiting to cash in.
- Because I like to see shit git blowed up!! George does, too, right?
- Because, deep down, I'm an imperialist. I believe we need to invade, conquer, and occupy as many countries as possible. All this milarky about invading Iraq to get rid of a tyrant who butchered millions of his own people, and invading to make sure that Saddam's regime has no chance to develop, propogate, acquire, and distribute WMDs is just a bunch a silly-speak by G-Dub. He took us to war because he hate brown people, and by golly, so do I.

I have more reasons, but those should be sufficient to stir up discussion for tonight.

Thanks for playin!

Ed


bumblie


Oct 18, 2004, 1:21 PM
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He's the less offensive of two bad options.


madriver


Oct 18, 2004, 1:54 PM
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bumblie wrote:
In reply to:
He's the less offensive of two bad options.

...sad but true..

...your options are ...
A) JK...arguably one of the most pandering demagog politicians of all time.
I mean honestly you can see him asking his handlers right before he goes on stage for a speech...."now what group am I talking to...and what position do I take"
...or
B) GWB....got us into a war that we ABSOLUTLEY do not need to be involved with....look at this way...his father, while taking a world of heat for not finishing off Sadam when he had the chance obviously had the brains and good advice not to get into the current mess his son is in. His old man looks pretty smart right now...


Partner j_ung


Oct 18, 2004, 2:29 PM
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His whole Family SUCKS

The Bush daughters are hot. I don't whether or not they suck.


jt512


Oct 18, 2004, 3:30 PM
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Jay, what if you are wrong?

What if you are?

-Jay


fecalquisinart


Oct 18, 2004, 3:41 PM
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Well, if I am wrong(and I'm not), I am in the same boat as all of you. If you are wrong...you'll burn in hell forever. :evil:


hugepedro


Oct 18, 2004, 3:52 PM
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Well, if I am wrong(and I'm not), I am in the same boat as all of you. If you are wrong...you'll burn in hell forever. :evil:

I suspect you are not in the same boat. I'm already in heaven, right now!

And stop hijacking my thread!


jt512


Oct 18, 2004, 4:06 PM
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Well, if I am wrong(and I'm not), I am in the same boat as all of you. If you are wrong...you'll burn in hell forever. :evil:

And if I am right I'll at least have not lived my entire life believing in fairy tales.

-Jay


fecalquisinart


Oct 18, 2004, 4:07 PM
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Go my entire life believing fairy tales...Burn in hell...

Funny priorities there Jay. :?


robmcc


Oct 18, 2004, 4:17 PM
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My best reason for voting for Bush--if I did so--would be John Kerry.

Kerry sucks a lot. Bush sucks a lot, too, but his ideology is infintessimally closer to mine than Kerry's is to mine.

I'll probably vote for neither, though. Kerry's said some stuff that make me think he's a liar espousing whatever'll get him into office. Of course, that doesn't really differentiate from Mr. Compassionate Conservatism, either.

It's truly depressing that in November, one of them will win.

Rob


arrettinator


Oct 18, 2004, 4:51 PM
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Well, if I am wrong(and I'm not)
A bit full of yourself, eh.
It must be nice to be so closed minded.
Never having to be "wrong".

Anyway, hp, I'm not a conservative, but it's not that I support Kerry but more that I don't support Bush.
I didn't support him in 2000, either.
I liked McCain at that time, but don't really like him that much right now.


robmcc


Oct 18, 2004, 5:08 PM
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Career politicians SO need to go away.

Could we perhaps elect people who are intelligent, articulate, honest, insightful, honorable, and decent? Maybe? Huh? Please?

One thing sums up the abject failure of our political machine, and that's the Vote-For-Me-Cuz-I'm-On-A-Stick! Ads. You know the ones. You drive buy them all the time, and it's nothing more than a name on a stick. Sometimes it's a name and an office on a stick. Sometimes there's a party on the stick.

It tells you nothing to almost nothing about the candidate. It's a pure name recognition grab and nothing more. But I'm getting off topic.

Why are all out presidents very rich and backed by a PR machine that could get Ted Bundy elected Pope?

Why are all our debates filled with disingenuous bullshit and pandering to one interest group after another? Why is domestic policy a race to give out the most candy while playing a shell game to avoid paying for it?

Where the hell did all the patriots go?

Rob


hugepedro


Oct 18, 2004, 5:19 PM
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Rob,
Nice Rant.

I think it's mostly about/because of the money. If we could find a way to remove money as a major factor in the system I think many of the problems you mentioned would dissappear.

I don't know how to remove the money though.


bumblie


Oct 18, 2004, 5:57 PM
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A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."


madriver


Oct 18, 2004, 6:03 PM
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robmcc wrote:
In reply to:
One thing sums up the abject failure of our political machine, and that's the Vote-For-Me-Cuz-I'm-On-A-Stick! Ads. You know the ones. You drive buy them all the time, and it's nothing more than a name on a stick. Sometimes it's a name and an office on a stick. Sometimes there's a party on the stick.

...heh...the corn dog canidates....


....bumblie...

...is our fun in the sun over?
...start date...say 1776....to 2004....yup...It's over...damn that was a quick 200 years!!


robmcc


Oct 18, 2004, 6:05 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."

Believing that this is unalterable truth qualifies as complacency.

Is it truly impossible for the proles to wake up and realize that the largesse they're currently dispensing to themselves comes at the price of their grandchildren's liberty? I don't think so. I think if enough people put aside their own aspirations for free stuff and power and stand up and do the right thing, there's room for stability. It'll always be an unstable equilibrium, but it isn't impossible.

Rob


slablizard


Oct 18, 2004, 6:35 PM
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Yeah that's pretty scary. I'm sure Osama too takes orders from a "voice" A "Higher authority"
He might be a man that does what he says, problem is most of the times what he says does not makes sense. Or it'a a plain lie. Or both.

Bush...Rauss!



In reply to:
Because he is a man of moral clarity and convictions, who does what he says he is going to do and doesn't give a rat's ass what people think. And, he puts his trust in a Higher Authority.

Kerry, on the other hand, has no moral clarity or convictions, has aever done anything, let alone what he says he is going to do, but who knowsw what he says he is going to do or if he even knows what he is going to do or if he knows what he said he knows he is going to do or what side of what issue he thinks he says he is going to do or...you get my point. And, John Kerry trusts in himself.


slablizard


Oct 18, 2004, 6:39 PM
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I just don't trust people that worships too much. Especially presidents.
And your differentiation bethween "gods" does not makes sense. If you believe you belive,what's the difference in how you call it? Is the blind faith I don't (and will never) trust.

Especially in a president. A president should be a brilliant statesman, not a man of faith.

What the hell do I care wha he believes in if he cannot see his own mistakes?




In reply to:
No Curt...you have that wrong. He prays that he will do the right thing. Didn't you hear his answer during the debate? He never said he hears little voices from God telling him what to do. Your comparison between TRUE Christianity and the Taliban and Osama is stupid. They don't worship the same God.


danooguy


Oct 18, 2004, 6:43 PM
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Interesting. Here we have a thread framed by series of rather slippery presumptions ala Pedro that basically says, "We support Kerry because he's not Bush" ...and the report from the Right is that "We support Bush because he's not Kerry." (I suppose one could easily provide a lenghty list of contradictions and waffling and ask how anyone could support Kerry.)

In two weeks we'll hold our noses and choose.


slablizard


Oct 18, 2004, 6:44 PM
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LOL!

See you in hell..amigo. :twisted:

...Ah and bring your harness
:twisted:


In reply to:
Well, if I am wrong(and I'm not), I am in the same boat as all of you. If you are wrong...you'll burn in hell forever. :evil:


bluto


Oct 18, 2004, 7:42 PM
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Pat Buchanan's thoughts on the subject:

In reply to:
In the contest between Bush and Kerry, I am compelled to endorse the president of the United States. Why? Because, while Bush and Kerry are both wrong on Iraq, Sharon, NAFTA, the WTO, open borders, affirmative action, amnesty, free trade, foreign aid, and Big Government, Bush is right on taxes, judges, sovereignty, and values. Kerry is right on nothing.
The only compelling argument for endorsing Kerry is to punish Bush for Iraq. But why should Kerry be rewarded? He voted to hand Bush a blank check for war. Though he calls Iraq a “colossal” error, “the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time,” he has said he would—even had he known Saddam had no role in 9/11 and no WMD—vote the same way today. This is the Richard Perle position.

Assuredly, a president who plunged us into an unnecessary and ruinous war must be held accountable. And if Bush loses, Iraq will have been his undoing. But a vote for Kerry is more than just a vote to punish Bush. It is a vote to punish America.

For Kerry is a man who came home from Vietnam to slime the soldiers, sailors, Marines, and POWs he left behind as war criminals who engaged in serial atrocities with the full knowledge of their superior officers. His conduct was as treasonous as that of Jane Fonda and disqualifies him from ever being commander-in-chief of the Armed Forces of the United States.

As senator, he voted to undermine the policy of Ronald Reagan that brought us victory in the Cold War. He has voted against almost every weapon in the U.S. arsenal. Though a Catholic who professes to believe life begins at conception, he backs abortion on demand. He has opposed the conservative judges Bush has named to the U.S. appellate courts. His plans for national health insurance and new spending would bankrupt America. He would raise taxes. He is a globalist and a multilateralist who would sign us on to the Kyoto Protocol and International Criminal Court. His stands on Iraq are about as coherent as a self-portrait by Jackson Pollock.

With Kerry as president, William Rehnquist could be succeeded as chief justice by Hillary Clinton. Every associate justice Kerry named would be cut from the same bolt of cloth as Warren, Brennan, Douglas, Blackmun, and Ginsburg. Should Kerry win, the courts will remain a battering ram of social revolution and the conservative drive in Congress to restrict the jurisdiction of all federal courts, including the Supreme Court, will die an early death.

I cannot endorse the candidate of Michael Moore, George Soros, and Barbra Streisand, nor endorse a course of action that would put this political windsurfer into the presidency, no matter how deep our disagreement with the fiscal, foreign, immigration, and trade policies of George W. Bush.


bumblie


Oct 18, 2004, 7:48 PM
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I wish Buchanan wouldn't mince his words. :wink:


slablizard


Oct 18, 2004, 7:56 PM
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A joke right? :lol: :lol:


[quote="bluto"]Pat Buchanan's thoughts on the subject:

In reply to:
Bush is right on taxes, judges, sovereignty, and values.


bluto


Oct 18, 2004, 8:32 PM
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[quote="slablizard"]A joke right? :lol: :lol:


In reply to:
Pat Buchanan's thoughts on the subject:

In reply to:
Bush is right on taxes, judges, sovereignty, and values.

Nope, no joke. Pedro wants to know how "true" conservatives can support Bush, Buchanan is a fairly traditional conservative, therefore his comments are pertinent to the discussion at hand.


hugepedro


Oct 18, 2004, 8:33 PM
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If my choices were Bush or Buchanan, I would vote for Buchanan. That is scary.


arrettinator


Oct 18, 2004, 8:37 PM
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If my choices were Bush or Buchanan, I would vote for Buchanan. That is scary.
Yes it is.
I'd ask for another choice.
It worked for Arnie. :lol:


jt512


Oct 18, 2004, 9:20 PM
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Go my entire life believing fairy tales...Burn in hell...

Funny priorities there Jay. :?

So your belief is merely a risk-reduction strategy?

-Jay


iltripp


Oct 18, 2004, 9:30 PM
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Curt, there are wack jobs in every religion. You are making it sound like that kind of behavior is prevalent. .

Case in point: George W Bush


fecalquisinart


Oct 18, 2004, 10:31 PM
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So your belief is merely a risk-reduction strategy?

No, ...I was playing YOUR game with those statements. I thought you were supposed to be smart?


prufrock


Oct 18, 2004, 11:20 PM
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If my choices were Bush or Buchanan, I would vote for Buchanan. That is scary.

Ditto that. I would vote for Buchanan, too: a man I disagree with on damn near everything. I've got that with Bush already, coupled with complete incompetence.

That's why I don't understand the solid support Bush receives from Republicans: even if you start out in agreement with him, he has still fouled up just about everything he's done.

I know if the Democrats tried to re-nominate someone as failed and mendacious as Bush, I'd bolt the party, at least temporarily. At some point it doesn't matter any more if I agree with a politician: there has to be a minimum for basic competence. If my choice is between a proven failure I agree with an a potential success I disagree with, give me the one I disagree with. Ethics and competence matter, as the last 4 years have shown.


thegreytradster


Oct 18, 2004, 11:26 PM
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I am a senior citizen. During the Clinton Administration I had an extremely good and well paying job.

I took numerous vacations and had several vacation homes.

Since President Bush took office, I have watched my entire life change for the worse.

I lost my job.

I lost my two sons in that terrible Iraqi War.

I lost my homes.

I lost my health insurance.

As a matter of fact I lost virtually everything and became homeless.

Adding insult to injury, when the authorities found me living like an animal, instead of helping me, they arrested me.

I will do anything that Senator Kerry wants to insure that a Democrat is back in the White House come next year.

Bush has to go.

Sincerely,

Saddam Hussein




http://www.strangepolitics.com/...s/content/102859.jpg


fecalquisinart


Oct 19, 2004, 12:36 AM
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http://www.computerpannen.com/...rib/blackeye/lol.gifhttp://www.computerpannen.com/...rib/blackeye/lol.gifhttp://www.computerpannen.com/...rib/blackeye/lol.gifhttp://www.computerpannen.com/...rib/blackeye/lol.gifhttp://www.computerpannen.com/...rib/blackeye/lol.gifhttp://www.computerpannen.com/...rib/blackeye/lol.gifhttp://www.computerpannen.com/...rib/blackeye/lol.gifhttp://www.computerpannen.com/...rib/blackeye/lol.gifhttp://www.computerpannen.com/...rib/blackeye/lol.gifhttp://www.computerpannen.com/...rib/blackeye/lol.gifhttp://www.computerpannen.com/...rib/blackeye/lol.gifhttp://www.computerpannen.com/...rib/blackeye/lol.gifhttp://www.computerpannen.com/...rib/blackeye/lol.gifhttp://www.computerpannen.com/...rib/blackeye/lol.gifhttp://www.computerpannen.com/...rib/blackeye/lol.gif


iltripp


Oct 19, 2004, 12:38 AM
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Blah blah blah... rhetoric.... blah blah blah

Saddam Hussein

Give me a break


climber_chick


Oct 19, 2004, 5:21 AM
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In reply to:


Blah blah blah... rhetoric.... blah blah blah

Saddam Hussein

Give me a break

Haha, awesome response.

Peace.
Kate

PS In vino veritas


treesail


Oct 19, 2004, 2:31 PM
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In reply to:
...My point is that all logic and rational thought goes out the window when a person believes that he/she is doing what God wants them to.

Curt, my man...you have a lot to learn. When you think that mere mortal humans know more than God himself, it shows that humanism has pretty much taken over your thought process. If someone prays to God for peace in their decision, and they get that peace, what is wrong with that? You really do have to differentiate between Osama's "God" and the God that TRUE Christians worship.


It's not whether or not "mere mortal humans know more than God himself" but whether it's even moral for these same "mere mortal humans" to claim with absolute certainty that I and only I posess wisdom enough to know exactly what God wants.


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