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chugar
Oct 25, 2004, 8:14 PM
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Some buddies and myself have started indoor climbing once/twice a week since February. We've also taken a TR anchoring/outdoor seminar back in August.
Together we have a full rack of cams, nuts, hexes, and tri-cams.
Speaking for myself, I'm able to do an indoor 5.10a with ease and can do a 5.10c after one or two rests.
I've read and heard that many people learn to lead after cleaning any "x" number of pitches.
So how many pitches would you suggest a person clean before trying to lead?
Also, if a person can do a 5.10a on a TR, what do you think would be a realistic and safe diffuculty to lead?
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slavetogravity
Oct 25, 2004, 8:26 PM
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I didn’t lead a single thing for the first year and half when I started leading. When I began leading I spent one season only sport climbing, the next season I required a rack and have never looked back. In retrospect it was too slow of a procession, but I was fortunate enough to have a very experience mentor teach me how to climb. I learnt a great deal just following him up countless trad climbs during those first few years. But the answer is not “Do what I’ve done” The answer is do what ever your comfortable with. I sounds like you’ve got a more then adequate rack at your disposal. Now go out there and start buy finding some aesthetic looking lines that area easy as pie for you to climb and then start leading harder stuff until you find your comfort level. If you have an oportunity to climb with a more experienced climbing then you, take it. When he seconds after you cleaning your gear, ask him what he thought, and be open to constructive criticism.
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smeargle
Oct 25, 2004, 8:35 PM
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I personally can't imagine transitioning directly from gym climbing to trad leading. A good idea would be to start leading some easy 5.6,5.7 sport climbs with some experienced climbers there to get the feel of leading and cleaning down and then get some serious mentoring in how to place gear before even thinking of trad leading.
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caughtinside
Oct 25, 2004, 8:37 PM
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sounds like you understand gear placements and anchors.
Go find a 5.5 or 5.6 and climb it. Avoid anything longer than 2 or 3 pitches for now, so if you get in trouble you can bail easy.
Oh, and no more referring to your gym onsights. :P
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j_ung
Oct 25, 2004, 8:41 PM
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Edit: Forget it. I'm staying way out of this. Good luck! Be careful! Use common sense and remember: once you're on the sharp end with ten pounds of gear, EVERYTHING will seem different. You will recognize nothing from your gym leading days.
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caughtinside
Oct 25, 2004, 8:47 PM
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j_ung--disagree.
Not everyone needs 'a lesson' or 'an instructor' or someone to hold their hand. They've taken a few classes. Give them the benefit of the doubt. Once upon a time, climbers were self taught.
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the_climber
Oct 25, 2004, 8:49 PM
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My advice would be to start by finding someone who is experianced and can observe you while you learn how to place gear. Start by either following them and cleaning the route, or by doing simulated leading while on toprope of easy trad routes. That is to say, have a line tied in to your harness that you tail as you lead and practice placing gear as you climb. Placing gear while on lead is far different that while standing on the ground. When starting out as a new trad climber you may find that on you fist few real trad leads that a 5.6 or 5.7 can suddenly seem much harder. There is definitly a learning curve that you will go through, and I am glad to here that you are interested in progressing as a climber. Climbing is a neverending learning curve, and with the numbers of climbers that there are today we should all take advantage of learning from those who have more experiance than us. Having a mentor of sorts may save you from some of the scary leads that many of us have experianced in the past. The book "Climbing anchors" in the how to rock climb series would also be a good investment. Also, always be aware of the direction of pull a placement will experiance, especially those that the placements above a particular piece may cause.
Good luck, have fun while you learn, and above all, Climb safe.
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chugar
Oct 25, 2004, 8:50 PM
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Thanks guys, I have no intention of killing myself and I'd just like to progress in a safe manner (and my friends feel the same).
We've tried the mock leading a few times w/ on a TR line. I felt that placing pro was alot more diffucult than just climbing up a route.
I read in another post that someone suggested cleaning 100 pitches before doing a 1st lead. The guys who wrote that also said that was a conservative number but what do you think?
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crshbrn84
Oct 25, 2004, 8:50 PM
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my best advice would be to find someone who has been leading trad for a long time and is willing to teach you. This past weekend i was at Jtree and i did my first trad climbing. I only followed my buddy up one 5.7 route before i led my first 5.8 route. I am familiar will gear placements, direction of pull and all that. I have had to set up numerous top rope trad anchors for some time now. He followed me up, told me what i was doing right and wrong. Another thing that will help with leading trad and doing sport climbing and highball bouldering as much as possible to get used to leading. But i agree with caughtinside because 10a on top rope and or leading in a gym is nothing like leading on real rock. Best bet would be to start on easy climbs with an instructor who knows what he is doing.
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ricardol
Oct 25, 2004, 8:53 PM
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strart leading when you feel confident to do so ..
... start at an easy level and then judge for yourself when to move up to more challenging ground ..
.. having someone with experience look over your placemtns would be a great idea ..
.. there are no rules for when .. or how many pitches to clean before leading .. -- some people take their time .. some jump right into it .. its fine either way... since they were progressing at a rate comfortable to themselves... which is the most important thing ..
-- ricardo
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chugar
Oct 25, 2004, 8:57 PM
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I'll definately get a good instructor.
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crazygirl
Oct 25, 2004, 8:58 PM
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what you can climb indoors is irrelevant to what you should start on to trad lead. i know people who climb up to 5.7, and lead 5.7, and people who climb 5.11 who don't trad lead at all.
as far as the original question - start as easy as possible, see how you feel and work your way up.
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j_ung
Oct 25, 2004, 9:01 PM
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In reply to: j_ung--disagree. Not everyone needs 'a lesson' or 'an instructor' or someone to hold their hand. They've taken a few classes. Give them the benefit of the doubt. Once upon a time, climbers were self taught.
I know, I know... I'm self taught, too. But like many other self-taught traddies, I survived the first couple seasons by luck more than anything else. It sounds like chugar has a good enough head on his shoulders to handle the difference. Benefit of the doubt given.
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davidji
Oct 25, 2004, 9:10 PM
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In reply to: Speaking for myself, I'm able to onsight an indoor 5.10a with ease and can redpoint a 5.10c after one or two rests. I've read and heard that many people learn to lead after cleaning any "x" number of pitches. So how many pitches would you suggest a person clean before trying to lead? Also, if a person can do a 5.10a on a TR, what do you think would be a realistic and safe diffuculty to lead?
I led my first "trad" pitch in climb class (easy, with a one-move-wonder 5.8 crux) as a beginner. Then went on a multipitch climb with a mentor where I followed all pitches. Then we went on another and I led the first pitch. That seems like a reasonable way to start to me. Some people don't want to lead, and that's OK too. caughtinside led about a dozen pitches before he followed one, and that worked well for him. Both of us had mentors though. Do you? If not, who did you plan to follow?
What do you mean by redpointing after one or two rests? Do you mean after one or two failed attempts? Or do you mean finish the climb with one or two rests? That one isn't a redpoint.
As far as what is realistic & safe to lead, it isn't so much about the difficulty, as the nature of the climb. You will find long sections of some climbs where there simply isn't any protection, and you will find many climbs where placing pro will be tiring. Better to start on a climb with easy pro.
On the other side of things, you'll see people online quibbling about what trivially easy 5. trad climb is best for beginners. I think that comes from the fact that many trad climbs involve crack-climbing technique, and many climbers these days come from a gym background where they didn't learn any. It's something to keep in mind anyway. Are you comfortable crack climbing?
* But I won't.
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chugar
Oct 25, 2004, 9:37 PM
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I apologize for the incorrect lingo. I meant to say I slipped and lost a hold once or twice on the same attempt.
I have a few possible people to show us for a day. However, I doubt that one mentor can mentor three people at the same time.
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asandh
Oct 25, 2004, 9:48 PM
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:)
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jaybird2
Oct 25, 2004, 9:54 PM
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As mentioned earlier (but only once), get on a few sport routes first where if your head isn't there you will fall on something better than your first piece ever placed on lead. Lead is different. Placing gear on toprope is good for gear placement technique, as is gym climbing for climbing technique. But when you get on lead, it all changes. Lead sport first. As for the 100 cleans before you lead, I know many great and safe trad climbers that have cleaned way fewer times before leading. If you get it, move on. Just use your head and start on the easiest single pitch stuff that you can find. But I recommend sport first. Even sport outdoors is different from indoors. Lead on sport and place extra gear to practice placing gear on lead so that you have the safety of the bolts but can gain the experience of placing in a blue alien with elvis leg. Just use common sense and realized that death can be how inexperience is weeded out. I am not saying that you can't go get on a 5.6 trad and lead it well and good, but it doesn't hurt to try sport first.
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euroford
Oct 25, 2004, 9:55 PM
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follow an experienced leader, and resent your knowedge of your current 'grade' ability.
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chugar
Oct 25, 2004, 10:15 PM
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Wow! In less than 2 hours after my initial post there's already a ton of info! I really appreciate ALL the responses. So here's my plan (and I'm totally open to any criticism on this as well):
1. I'm ditching all my previous indoor background as far as rating is concerned in the outdoor world.
2. Getting a good mentor/instructor to learn from.
3. When I feel 100% comfortable and ready to move from No. 2, I'll work on leading an easy single pitch sport route.
And I do have one more question: How many people can a mentor mentor at the same time?
I ask this because my friends and I make a group of 3 and I don't think it is possible for a mentor to instruct 3 people at the same time. Some schools have lead courses which have a max of 1 mentor to 2 students but what do you all think?
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leinosaur
Oct 25, 2004, 10:28 PM
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Also, don't forget to READ (Freedom of the Hills has a good starter) and ASK LOTS OF QUESTIONS of your mentor
Number that a mentor can handle depends on his/the student's motivation - what's s/he getting out of it? More than glory, I hope . . . we wannabe leaders are a dime a dozen these days . . .
I've seen placing pro at ground-level and testing it a lot recommended.
Also, dig up old threads on this same question. Also one on "what you wish you would have asked" - -
do all of the above and have fun. I don't know how you can keep from leading easy stuff with a rack like that already put together, though.
good luck!
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asandh
Oct 25, 2004, 10:31 PM
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:)
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eyecannon
Oct 25, 2004, 11:10 PM
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Definitely find someone who knows what they are doing, and second on a few pitches, then when you feel comfy, lead one! Start out on a 5.3 or something, anything where you have lots of no-hands rests.
I led my first trad route the second time I went trad climbing, which was 8 months after I started climbing at all. I did quite a bit of sport leading before that though. Just make sure you know what you are going to do before you try to do it :D
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mheyman
Oct 26, 2004, 12:50 AM
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There a lot of good suggestions here, following others, particularly a professional might be ideal, but you can learn to climb with a partner.
Some people are clueless when they start climbing. Some people always will be. But given the benefit of the doubt. Start leading as soon as you are ready. How do you know? Lots of reading helps. Having at least one knowledgeable person who thinks you are ready is a good start. What you want to be sure you have is a realistic evaluation of your knowledge, concerning belays, rope work and gear placement.
If you have lots of experience sport leading and following trad then you should know where to start on your own. But movement and clipping skills are not a prerequisite to leading trad.
If you have little experience, then start easy, like 5.2 or 5.3. The point is not to have to think about the climbing, and to have no hands rests to place gear. This pretty much takes climbing ability out of the equation. See how it goes. In this regard I don’t think sport leading helps. It can give some people the ability and confidence to climb into trouble. In this case if you need sport climbing skills then you are starting to hard.
Climb safe. Have fun.
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euroford
Oct 26, 2004, 1:03 AM
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an idea i always thought was important (well, still do) when i started leading, and like to express to other new trad leaders.
before you leave the ground, realize that you really are taking your life into your own hands (for most poeple this is a new idea). don't realize this after you have climbed above your gear and are sketching out trying to figure out how to get some pro. look ahead, read the route, deciede where you are going to place gear in advance.
when done right trad can be scary and fun 8^)
when done wrong trad can be scary and deadly :shock:
so go have some scary good fun!
(after following your mentor and taking his advice, and reading books, and heading the other good advice on this forum)
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david.yount
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Oct 26, 2004, 1:24 AM
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In reply to: I read in another post that someone suggested cleaning 100 pitches before doing a 1st lead. The guy who wrote that also said that was a conservative number but what do you think?
But if you're antsy then 60 pitches following would give you some experience, certiainly.
And if your patience is minimal and looking at your rack makes you want to fondle it, and fondling makes you crazy with desire to use it..... 30 pitches would be hella better than nothing. I think you will learn much much more from 100 pitches of following than with 3 full days of one-on-one private instruction.
Ultimately, it's your choice.
You're in Stockton, California, right? I can think of a dozen 5.6 and 5.5 local routes that would be unadvisable for you to hop on, though the bulk of posts encourage it. I'm not sayin' you couldn't do it.
I'm just sayin' that since you have the choice, please be as safe as your patience allows. You loose nothing by taking your time. If your focus is to enjoy the process, then the journey is the adventure. Maybe reconsider your goals if they sound like, "I will be leading 5.8 within 1 year of trad climbing." Remember, you'll never "arrive" as a trad leader; you'll always be learning. None of us are finished learning.
david yount.
oh yeah, that was me that you quoted about the 100 pitches of following ;)
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catbiter
Oct 26, 2004, 1:50 AM
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Right now! Get out there. My first lead came after following two pitches and playing with the gear on the ground for about an hour. Granted, it was only a 5.4, but scary none-the-less. My sketchiest lead to date is still only a 5.8 even though I can climb harder than that. To me, if I'm going to climb hard, I'll do sport routes. I have only been climbing for a year and a half, but I fell into the sport and met people who had years on me. I learned a lot from then. Maybe try to meet some people with experience who will be willing to teach you. Once again, I have only been climbing for a year and a half. I really think that you'll know when you are ready to lead. Good luck and be safe!
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jt512
Oct 26, 2004, 2:04 AM
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In reply to: Right now! Get out there. My first lead came after following two pitches and playing with the gear on the ground for about an hour.
This is not the kind of thing you should be encouraging people you don't know to do. Maybe that 5.4 was a gimme that you could have walked up; maybe it wasn't and you were putting yourself and your partner in more danger than you underatand. There is no way that you can learn even a fraction of what is required to lead the simplest pitch safety by "playing with your gear on the ground for about an hour," and it is irresponsible of you to suggest that anyone else should do what you did.
-Jay
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eastvillage
Oct 26, 2004, 2:14 AM
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Start on very easy routes. Try a 5.2. No climb is too easy to learn on. They're all vertical.
Then stay easy for a while, place pro, make anchors, have fun.
5 easy one pitch, say 100' each routes = 10 placements/pitch * 5 = 50 placements! Lots of learning in a lower risk environment.
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socalclimber
Oct 26, 2004, 2:26 AM
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In reply to: When should I start trad leading?
When you're ready. Only you will know that, or you won't, but I can assure you that one way or the other you will figure it out. Ignore the rest of the "advice" you're getting here. Go out and climb.
Robert
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sixleggedinsect
Oct 26, 2004, 2:55 AM
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ive read this question a few times before.
'when shoudl you start leading?' after following 100 pitches?
whatever. i never understand the vast number of naysaying posts i read. are you a self destructing person with a history of poor decision making? well, then don't climb at all. but if you aren't, then pick something you *know* youll have no trouble on. like other posters said- best not to start on a 5.10 X multipitch trad climb in an alpine area 350 miles into the backcountry rope-solo.
a good isntructor *will* help. it will speed things up. but for a common-sense-abiding climber, thats all it will do. if youre in a rush to push the grades, then good gear is essential. the fastest way i know how to teach someone to place good gear is to find a short single pitch climb with good gear features and a TR anchor. ill belay the new climber up and have him or her place the whole rack on the way up. then we rappel the route together and analyze each piece. usually folks dont make big pro errors, and certainly not afte they've been told once. the biggest error i generally see is, over and over again, is folks putting pro in where there is much better pro right next to it, or a better place for thesame piece
nearby.
dude. on a dry day in the sun, you will NOT hurt yourself on a 5.2 low angle climb with good pro. and itd be a hell of a lot more fun to me to just go out and have a crack at it easy, than follow some dude up another 5.7 and pull his pro. and then 98 more times.
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declinebass
Oct 26, 2004, 3:13 AM
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the first time i lead a route was pretty bad ass. what me and my buddy did was i would clean the route that he did and then he would rap down and place 2 bomber placements for me to fall back on it anything went wrong. and since i had the moves down i could pay more attention to my placing of gear. so id lead the route and shshsha! obviously they wernt that bad of routes to do either. but that could just be me and how i work. the only thing i have problems with is run outs and thats just cuz i used to mainly be a gym climber...an di still work at one. but thats just a learning thing.
DB
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thisflash
Oct 26, 2004, 3:37 AM
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Follow as many pitches as you can before leading, even if it is for a couple years. Don't be in a hurry to start trad leading. Wait and gain experience on single pitch as well as multi-pitch. Get more experience sport leading, too. You should be very comfortable on 5.9's before you start leading anything. And when you start leading, lead easy routes that are easy to protect and you know you won't fall on.
I followed trad climbs for 2 years before leading. I started on 5.9's with an expert climber and gradually learned everything as I moved up the grades. When I started leading it was on a 5.6 that I could have climbed blindfolded, but the emphasis of that climb was learing how to place gear. To put things in perspective for you, I was leading 5.12 sport and following 5.11+ trad when I led my first trad climb. I think it was good to become that comfortable with climbing trad before I started pushing it on the sharp end.
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wanderinfree
Oct 26, 2004, 4:21 AM
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In reply to: Follow as many pitches as you can before leading, even if it is for a couple years. Don't be in a hurry to start trad leading. Wait and gain experience on single pitch as well as multi-pitch. Get more experience sport leading, too. You should be very comfortable on 5.9's before you start leading anything. And when you start leading, lead easy routes that are easy to protect and you know you won't fall on. I followed trad climbs for 2 years before leading. I started on 5.9's with an expert climber and gradually learned everything as I moved up the grades. When I started leading it was on a 5.6 that I could have climbed blindfolded, but the emphasis of that climb was learing how to place gear. To put things in perspective for you, I was leading 5.12 sport and following 5.11+ trad when I led my first trad climb. I think it was good to become that comfortable with climbing trad before I started pushing it on the sharp end.
Great advice. I just started trad leading these past two weeks, and I've followed the pattern you laid out above almost to a tee. Been seconding for 2 years, and climbing 9/10- pretty comfortably. And the nicest part about learning to trad lead is the interesting dicotomy of climbing 5.5-6 now. Adds an element of relaxation to learning to trad lead since it's on routes that I would almost solo.
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thisflash
Oct 26, 2004, 4:37 AM
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In reply to: Adds an element of relaxation to learning to trad lead since it's on routes that I would almost solo.
I know what you mean. I actually soloed an easy 5.8 before I led anything. Then I got on other 5.8s and it was all about placing gear. I could take forever getting the gear just right and never get pumped. And now that my placements are solid, I'm able to push it on the hard stuff.
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david.yount
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Oct 26, 2004, 4:54 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Follow as many pitches as you can before leading, even if it is for a couple years. Don't be in a hurry to start trad leading. Wait and gain experience on single pitch as well as multi-pitch. Get more experience sport leading, too. You should be very comfortable on 5.9's before you start leading anything. And when you start leading, lead easy routes that are easy to protect and you know you won't fall on. I followed trad climbs for 2 years before leading. I started on 5.9's with an expert climber and gradually learned everything as I moved up the grades. When I started leading it was on a 5.6 that I could have climbed blindfolded, but the emphasis of that climb was learing how to place gear. To put things in perspective for you, I was leading 5.12 sport and following 5.11+ trad when I led my first trad climb. I think it was good to become that comfortable with climbing trad before I started pushing it on the sharp end. Great advice. I just started trad leading these past two weeks, and I've followed the pattern you laid out above almost to a tee. Been seconding for 2 years, and climbing 9/10- pretty comfortably. And the nicest part about learning to trad lead is the interesting dicotomy of climbing 5.5-6 now. Adds an element of relaxation to learning to trad lead since it's on routes that I would almost solo.
david yount.
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aikibujin
Oct 26, 2004, 12:53 PM
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Regarding books you should read, Freedom of the Hills and John Long's anchor books are all good resources. But they don't deal specifically with leading trad. If your ultimate goal is to lead trad, then Heidi Pesterfield's Traditional Lead Climbing: Surviving the Learning Years is what I would recommend. It's probably the most comprehensive book on leading trad currently available.
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aka_fred
Oct 26, 2004, 1:26 PM
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Holy Crap there's a lot to read on this thread.
Here's the deal, what would you feel comfortable with? If you've cleaned 100 pitches or whatever and you'd feel comfortable with it then great. If you feel comfortable learning as you go, then great. The safest way is to have an experienced climber either to climb with or to at least watch, there are lots of things to remember when leading, placement, rope and gate direction, change overs and stations... the list goes on. I've know people who climbed three times before they led for the first time and now are excellent leaders.
As for the rule of thumb that you clime for years before leading, WHAT?? I mean, seriously people, years? It's one thing if you have a partner that leads and you climb with them for years, but if you're ready sooner... why not? You can be taught how to lead from your belayer easier then when you're the belayer. Until you're putting the pro in the rock, how can you learn how to do it? Taking it out is different then putting it in. A good partner can instruct you from below if that was a good placement or not. And while I love to read about climbing, as someone said on this site somewhere, you can't really learn to climb by reading about it. You've got to get out there and touch the rock to learn...
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mheyman
Oct 26, 2004, 2:11 PM
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In reply to: I followed trad climbs for 2 years before leading. I started on 5.9's with an expert climber and gradually learned everything as I moved up the grades. When I started leading it was on a 5.6 that I could have climbed blindfolded, but the emphasis of that climb was learing how to place gear.
All good advice so far - but then
In reply to: To put things in perspective for you, I was leading 5.12 sport and following 5.11+ trad when I led my first trad climb. I think it was good to become that comfortable with climbing trad before I started pushing it on the sharp end.
If we had to be comfortable enough to lead 5.12 (even sport) then most of us would never lead. Leading 5.11 or 12 trad isn't even on the list of what most climbers will ever do.
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j_ung
Oct 26, 2004, 2:27 PM
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Climber 1:
Spent a season following a competent leader, experienced -- first hand --objective hazards associated with trad climbing, practiced leading several times with a TR back up and is just now stepping onto his first lead, an easy (for him) climb with good stances and simple, plentiful gear opportunities.
Climber 2:
Has been leading 5.10 regularly in the gym for the past year, bought a rack, climbed one "mock lead," and is now about to hop on the same first route.
In general, which of these two people has a better chance of success?
That's the type of question you have to ask yourself when you decide to take a step up into traditional climbing. To be sure, everybody is different, and that's why nobody can answer those questions for you. But make no mistake, this is what is meant by "taking personal responsibility." Throughout your life you will make decisions and deal with the consequences, and like no other activity, climbing will reward you for the correct choices and punish you for the incorrect.
I'm not saying that Climber 2 in the example above is dead meat; the crags are full of competent leaders who started that way. Likewise, the graveyard is full of people who followed in Climber 1's footsteps.
My advice is this: just be aware of the consequences of your decisions, and if you can't accept them, stop climbing.
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thisflash
Oct 26, 2004, 5:22 PM
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In reply to: If we had to be comfortable enough to lead 5.12 (even sport) then most of us would never lead. Leading 5.11 or 12 trad isn't even on the list of what most climbers will ever do.
You make a great point, but I was just offering a little perspective. Everyone's abilities are different and so for some people climbing comfortably on 5.10s sport and 5.9s following trad will be enough to start leading. In this case their first leads should be on really easy 5.5s.
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hyhuu
Oct 26, 2004, 5:57 PM
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You start trad leading after you are properly tied-in, racked your gears, put on your helmet, on belayed and most important of all, emptied your blader :) Serisouly, once you have learned how to build a solid anchor with gears, the rest is all mental. Climb on.
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fredbob
Oct 26, 2004, 6:30 PM
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[Response modified from previous answer to similar post/question]
There has been some good advice given above. But, I have to seriously question the formula of following for 2 years and climbing at a high standard before venturing out on the lead. That seems a bit extreme, but only you can be the judge.
Still, following an experienced leader is probably the best way to learn some of the skills necessary to lead trad.
When following:
(a) observe the gear/placements when cleaning,
(b) ask questions about gear, where and why placed, and
(c) analyze the entire protection/belay system based upon what you have read and have learned.
You may find that the person you are following is making mistakes and you should not blindly accept whatever they do as the best or only way of approaching leading.
I'd suggest John Long's leading book as a good primer. Freedom of the Hills, while authorative, is perhaps a bit too much for starting out.
To trad lead, it is vital that you:
(1) understand how to place reliable gear,
(2) be able to quickly size up protection options and what piece will fit,
(3) know how to anticipate forces placed upon the gear,
(4) see ahead where crux sections may be (so to protect these ahead of time),
(5) see where the route line goes to runner gear to avoid rope drag and avoid gear re-orienting itself (cams) or pulling out (nuts) as a result of the rope running through it,
Most important is to be able to set up a good belay anchor which will work not only for belaying the second person up, but to address the possibility of belaying a person on a second pitch (which may stress the anchor in different directions in the event of a fall).
While it may be okay (and probably a good idea) to overprotect leads when you are new to trad leading, ultimately, you will need to learn when to run it out and when to stop and place pro. If you do run out easier sections, it is vital that when you stop to place gear that the pro is bomber (you might consider placing two pieces above a runout).
It has been suggested to start sport leading outside as a transition of sorts from indoor leading to trad leading. There is some merit in this idea because you will find that once you get out of the very controlled environment of a gym, even a outdoor sport climb presents a much more complex picture than a gym.
But, a sport route will not teach you about placing reliable gear/anchors (while leading). Similarly, you will not develop a "head" for leading trad on sport routes. The psychology for trad and sport can be quite different [falling or working a sport route is common if not expected; this is not true and potentially dangerous on most trad routes.] If you want to lead trad, you should be climbing trad, though climbing sport as well will help develop other skills and strengths that will be helpful.
For your first leads, lead routes you have followed before. You will know where good stances/rests are and will have some idea of where good pro can be placed. The familiarity with the route will eliminate the element of the unexpected and simplify the process of tying into the sharp end.
Lastly, be careful leading very easy trad routes. Because they are lower angle and often have large features, a fall has a much higher prospect for injury than a steeper/cleaner route that might be more technically difficult.
Be safe.
[minor edits for clarity]
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cracklover
Oct 26, 2004, 7:11 PM
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If you want to become a trad leader, I would suggest *against* starting with sport climbing. Better to start on trad climbs where you are well within your safety range in terms of physical difficulty, and can just focus on placing gear, sling lengths, etc.
By the way, I had followed only perhaps one or two pitches before I started leading, but I mostly kept the leads down in the 5.2-5.5 range until I had a lot more experience under my belt (including seconding a lot of experienced leaders).
GO
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 26, 2004, 7:55 PM
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In reply to: Regarding books you should read, Freedom of the Hills and John Long's anchor books are all good resources. But they don't deal specifically with leading trad. If your ultimate goal is to lead trad, then Heidi Pesterfield's Traditional Lead Climbing: Surviving the Learning Years is what I would recommend. It's probably the most comprehensive book on leading trad currently available.
Agreed. I have Freedom of the Hills, Advanded Rock Climbing (Long), and Heidi Pesterfield's book, and the latter is what I reach for first when looking something up. I am at the stage where I have a lot of knowledge, but relatively speaking in the trad world, i am still a beginner. I don't need to read the book cover to cover, but this book is laid out in a very reader friendly way, so I can find specific trad climbing info very easily. It is definitely a good addition to your library, and this is the first time I have seen it mentioned.
Josh
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 26, 2004, 7:59 PM
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In reply to: If you want to become a trad leader, I would suggest *against* starting with sport climbing. Better to start on trad climbs where you are well within your safety range in terms of physical difficulty, and can just focus on placing gear, sling lengths, etc. By the way, I had followed only perhaps one or two pitches before I started leading, but I mostly kept the leads down in the 5.2-5.5 range until I had a lot more experience under my belt (including seconding a lot of experienced leaders). GO
And I also agree with this. Although this is how most climbers progressions go...(tr, sport, trad), myself included, sport climbing does nothing to prepare you for trad. It is very separate. You may argue that it will help you with your lead head, but they are not even in the same ballpark. Sport climbing is great and I love it, but they are apples and oranges.
Josh
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leinosaur
Oct 26, 2004, 8:24 PM
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fredbob said:In reply to: Lastly, be careful leading very easy trad routes. Because they are lower angle and often have large features, a fall has a much higher prospect for injury than a steeper/cleaner route that might be more technically difficult.
Just wanted to highlight that: AMEN, FREDBOB!!!!!
Those ledgy routes are great for setting the pro, but it's almost like each piece being your first; you could deck on the ledges, too!
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caughtinside
Oct 26, 2004, 8:36 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: If you want to become a trad leader, I would suggest *against* starting with sport climbing. Better to start on trad climbs where you are well within your safety range in terms of physical difficulty, and can just focus on placing gear, sling lengths, etc. By the way, I had followed only perhaps one or two pitches before I started leading, but I mostly kept the leads down in the 5.2-5.5 range until I had a lot more experience under my belt (including seconding a lot of experienced leaders). GO And I also agree with this. Although this is how most climbers progressions go...(tr, sport, trad), myself included, sport climbing does nothing to prepare you for trad. It is very separate. You may argue that it will help you with your lead head, but they are not even in the same ballpark. Sport climbing is great and I love it, but they are apples and oranges. Josh
I disagree. Sport climbing won't help you learn gear placements at all, but it will help your climbing, and get you a lot stronger. That strength will help you out when you're trying to place a piece from a crappy stance.
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old_apple_juice
Oct 27, 2004, 4:14 PM
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I started trad leading this year
Sport leading is nice to start, because you can get the feel above being above protection and trying to mess with clipping things during climbing.
I use the '5.fun' theory (Bill Mitchell, 2004) for trad leading. Start leading on something you could easily free solo. For me, that was a single pitch 5.4 (I don't think I've ever seen someone write 5.4 on RC.com). It was fun, I could spend a long time making placements and messing with gear.
After getting in some situations where I had to lead above my ability level to finish climbs other people started, my frazzled nerves decided that 5.fun is where it's at for now.
It's nice to get seconded by an experienced trad leader because they can evaluate your placements (on a 5.fun climb) and when you place stuff yourself you learn more.
Gyms are fun, but gym climbing to trad leading is like comparing cartoons to Clockwork Orange. Not the same but they're both on television.
Andrew
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cracklover
Oct 27, 2004, 5:07 PM
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In reply to: Sport climbing won't help you learn gear placements at all, but it will help your climbing, and get you a lot stronger. That strength will help you out when you're trying to place a piece from a crappy stance.
Yes, sport climbing, gym climbing, and boulering are all fine supplements which will help you gain power and endurance. But power and endurance are not pre-requisites for the routes a beginning trad leader should be climbing. Or, put another way, plenty of people worked their way up through the grades long before there even was such a thing as sport climbing.
Once you gain the competency at trad leading to be able to push your physical limits on lead - perhaps a season or three (less time if you really climb a lot) - then sport climbing can certainly help you push the envelope. But again, for your first season or three, your physical limit should not be relevant to your trad climbing. Like old_apple_juice and many others have said - your first leads should all be on 5.easy terrain.
GO
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eastvillage
Oct 27, 2004, 5:18 PM
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Several comments here suggest that one needs to climb say, 5.10 in a gym, maybe follow 5.9 trad on rock before you venture out on your own.
Well, I started in 1970 and trust me, none of my friends could get any where near a 5.9 but that didn't stop us from starting to lead and having a great time. My first lead was a 5.0! I was lucky because we climbed in the Gunks, the world headquarters of exciting, easy climbs, but we still went climbing (leading) and soon worked our way up the grades within a year.
Numbers don't make you safe. There is no timeline for "normal" progression. You might love leading or be scared SH#%#*##!
Leading demands that you learn as much as you can and
then take that leap of faith. Sorry, that's the way it is.
Remember, climbing is a dangerous sport that can result in serious injury or death.
Belive it, gravity never sleeps.
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 28, 2004, 1:21 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: If you want to become a trad leader, I would suggest *against* starting with sport climbing. Better to start on trad climbs where you are well within your safety range in terms of physical difficulty, and can just focus on placing gear, sling lengths, etc. By the way, I had followed only perhaps one or two pitches before I started leading, but I mostly kept the leads down in the 5.2-5.5 range until I had a lot more experience under my belt (including seconding a lot of experienced leaders). GO And I also agree with this. Although this is how most climbers progressions go...(tr, sport, trad), myself included, sport climbing does nothing to prepare you for trad. It is very separate. You may argue that it will help you with your lead head, but they are not even in the same ballpark. Sport climbing is great and I love it, but they are apples and oranges. Josh I disagree. Sport climbing won't help you learn gear placements at all, but it will help your climbing, and get you a lot stronger. That strength will help you out when you're trying to place a piece from a crappy stance.
Toproping does the same thing, but I don't hear an argument for that. Strength is never the limiting factor in trad climbing. I agree that that by developing the strenght and technique in sport climbing will raise your trad climbing potential, just because you climb 5.whatever does noty mean you will ever be a strong trad climber. There are too many other factors to consider.
So, sport and tr are good supplements, I disagree that it should necessarily be the natural progression. I have seen way too much complacency in those that do not translate very well to trad.
Josh
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skateman
Oct 28, 2004, 2:48 PM
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Chugar,
I've been climbing for two seasons (years) now. I just started leading trad this past June.
My approach was to go on a few guided climbs. The guided climbs got me hooked. At the same time I was learning gear placement and rope management skills. When I finally started to lead on my own it was exhillarating to say the least. Yes, there were some mini epics at first, there still are on occasion. But the freedom of being able to climb when and where you want can not be denied. Be sure to use equal amounts of common sense and caution when you are starting out. Try to avoid awkward/sandbag routes until you gain the confidence and cool nerves to master such routes.
Reading John Longs book or Freedom of the Hill's will definitely come in handy. If you can find an experienced mentor who will critque your gear and anchors, even better!
Good luck Brutha!
S
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caughtinside
Oct 28, 2004, 3:58 PM
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Hmm, strength never the limiting factor in trad climbing? I hadn't considered that. But consider this: strength can get you out of a lot of jams. A lot.
And toproping just isn't that much fun. :P
I do agree, sport climbing before tradclimbing is no prerequisite. But I do think it can help to understand life on the sharp end. You can see what it's like to be gripped when you're five feet above your pro, even if it is a fatty bolt.
Besides, if you start trad climbing, you run the risk of someone on this forum telling you to climb with no cams! :P :P
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thomaskeefer
Oct 28, 2004, 4:21 PM
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Two of the three books, MFOH and CA, are great and I assume the third is great as well.. there is another great book out there called Gym to Crag that talks alot about things you need to know before you get into a multipitch effort outside. It has a photo on red background for the cover and I would definitly reccomend it.
As for when to start.. the old advice never test your leading limits and your gear limits on the same climb!!
And NEVER follow the advice that you should start to lead totally on a passive rack. It is unsafe advice that is no more than spray from the issuer and actually probably borderline irresponsibility on their part!
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holmeslovesguinness
Oct 28, 2004, 4:53 PM
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Given that you are transitioning from the gym to the great outdoors, getting some sport leads under your belt before jumping onto your first gear route might not be a bad idea. This will definitely help give you a better 'feel' for what leading on real rock is all about.
Another thing to consider is that many gym / sport climbers are ill-prepared for trad climbing simply because they lack crack-climbing skills. I think that for most people it takes longer to learn to crack climb efficiently than it does to place good gear. Practice jamming various crack sizes on TR or as a second before you jump on to a pumpy sustained crack route.
Beyond that, choose your first couple of routes with an eye to how well they protect as well as the actual grade. Do a little research and find some nice easy straight up single pitch lines that you can totally sew up with solid gear.
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uwmeghan
Nov 10, 2004, 3:34 AM
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Hey, I'm not really experienced, but I did just do my first trad lead this summer, and I haven't been climbing for very long. I haven't done anything hard, because you are right, placing the gear is the challenge, and for awhile just make sure that's your only challenge. If you get a chance, Seneca Rocks Mountain Guides had an awesome course which made me a lot more comfortable with trad leading, but I'm not sure where you are at or if that would even be an option. If you understand the concepts, my feeling was that it all it took from there was experience. Pulling gear is nice, but don't just follow one person, because then all you learn is their system. Develop your own, leading is like everything else in climbing, you do it your own way, just make sure it's all thought out and as safe as that situation can be.
Good luck!
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gobotrocker
Nov 21, 2004, 2:31 AM
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[quote="caughtinside"]Hmm, strength never the limiting factor in trad climbing? I hadn't considered that. But consider this: strength can get you out of a lot of jams. A lot.
Physical strength can't help when your'e emotionally gripped, from lack of experience or just an off day.
I learned 75% on my own, picking up some stuff along the way.
I did however embrace the fact that I AM RESPONSIBLE for myself and my second. It's up to me to make sure I know what I need to know. If that means a paid teacher, so be it, I swear by anchor building with 2 feet on the ground, I've done that 100's of times.
The Gym cannot teach you how to use your'e shoes, I've always believed that any aspiring leader needs to be solid on thier feet. No substitute for real rock.
The best piece of safety gear I have is my clear sober head and all the knowledge I have gained over the years. It's a learning process. Embrace the process. It's more fun than Asteroid's
We all progress at our own rate.
A Leader consults his friends, guide books, his gut, the forecast and a host of other things before committing to a lead.
A Leader makes thier own decisions.
Please do take it seriously.
And have FUN!
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ryan112ryan
Nov 22, 2004, 2:50 AM
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In reply to: I participated in a rescue several years ago because 2 brothers were leading 5.3 multi pitch and didn't know what they were doing. One died, one is paralyzed for life. They didn't know what a good anchor was and found out 4 pitches up.
ive been toproping for a bit now, but its stories like this that scare the crap outta me and make me second guess when i should start transitioning to trad leading.
also first time, mabye try setting up a Top rope as a back up, but keep some slack in the system so if you fall and your last peice blows youll walk away just shaken
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tao-buddha
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Nov 22, 2004, 3:18 AM
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Sorry if this has been recommended already, I just don't have the patience to read this whole thread.
Learn how to place your gear on the ground from somebody who's bulletproof, then hop on tr with your rack and start placing gear with long slings and biner attached. Clip the biner to your belay loop while still tied in. Ask for slack, and fall. Test it, build trust in your placement.
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