|
catbiter
Oct 26, 2004, 1:50 AM
Post #26 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 12, 2003
Posts: 177
|
Right now! Get out there. My first lead came after following two pitches and playing with the gear on the ground for about an hour. Granted, it was only a 5.4, but scary none-the-less. My sketchiest lead to date is still only a 5.8 even though I can climb harder than that. To me, if I'm going to climb hard, I'll do sport routes. I have only been climbing for a year and a half, but I fell into the sport and met people who had years on me. I learned a lot from then. Maybe try to meet some people with experience who will be willing to teach you. Once again, I have only been climbing for a year and a half. I really think that you'll know when you are ready to lead. Good luck and be safe!
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Oct 26, 2004, 2:04 AM
Post #27 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: Right now! Get out there. My first lead came after following two pitches and playing with the gear on the ground for about an hour.
This is not the kind of thing you should be encouraging people you don't know to do. Maybe that 5.4 was a gimme that you could have walked up; maybe it wasn't and you were putting yourself and your partner in more danger than you underatand. There is no way that you can learn even a fraction of what is required to lead the simplest pitch safety by "playing with your gear on the ground for about an hour," and it is irresponsible of you to suggest that anyone else should do what you did.
-Jay
|
|
|
|
|
eastvillage
Oct 26, 2004, 2:14 AM
Post #28 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 14, 2004
Posts: 262
|
Start on very easy routes. Try a 5.2. No climb is too easy to learn on. They're all vertical.
Then stay easy for a while, place pro, make anchors, have fun.
5 easy one pitch, say 100' each routes = 10 placements/pitch * 5 = 50 placements! Lots of learning in a lower risk environment.
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Oct 26, 2004, 2:26 AM
Post #29 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
In reply to: When should I start trad leading?
When you're ready. Only you will know that, or you won't, but I can assure you that one way or the other you will figure it out. Ignore the rest of the "advice" you're getting here. Go out and climb.
Robert
|
|
|
|
|
sixleggedinsect
Oct 26, 2004, 2:55 AM
Post #30 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 14, 2004
Posts: 385
|
ive read this question a few times before.
'when shoudl you start leading?' after following 100 pitches?
whatever. i never understand the vast number of naysaying posts i read. are you a self destructing person with a history of poor decision making? well, then don't climb at all. but if you aren't, then pick something you *know* youll have no trouble on. like other posters said- best not to start on a 5.10 X multipitch trad climb in an alpine area 350 miles into the backcountry rope-solo.
a good isntructor *will* help. it will speed things up. but for a common-sense-abiding climber, thats all it will do. if youre in a rush to push the grades, then good gear is essential. the fastest way i know how to teach someone to place good gear is to find a short single pitch climb with good gear features and a TR anchor. ill belay the new climber up and have him or her place the whole rack on the way up. then we rappel the route together and analyze each piece. usually folks dont make big pro errors, and certainly not afte they've been told once. the biggest error i generally see is, over and over again, is folks putting pro in where there is much better pro right next to it, or a better place for thesame piece
nearby.
dude. on a dry day in the sun, you will NOT hurt yourself on a 5.2 low angle climb with good pro. and itd be a hell of a lot more fun to me to just go out and have a crack at it easy, than follow some dude up another 5.7 and pull his pro. and then 98 more times.
|
|
|
|
|
declinebass
Oct 26, 2004, 3:13 AM
Post #31 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 22, 2004
Posts: 46
|
the first time i lead a route was pretty bad ass. what me and my buddy did was i would clean the route that he did and then he would rap down and place 2 bomber placements for me to fall back on it anything went wrong. and since i had the moves down i could pay more attention to my placing of gear. so id lead the route and shshsha! obviously they wernt that bad of routes to do either. but that could just be me and how i work. the only thing i have problems with is run outs and thats just cuz i used to mainly be a gym climber...an di still work at one. but thats just a learning thing.
DB
|
|
|
|
|
thisflash
Oct 26, 2004, 3:37 AM
Post #32 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 5, 2004
Posts: 64
|
Follow as many pitches as you can before leading, even if it is for a couple years. Don't be in a hurry to start trad leading. Wait and gain experience on single pitch as well as multi-pitch. Get more experience sport leading, too. You should be very comfortable on 5.9's before you start leading anything. And when you start leading, lead easy routes that are easy to protect and you know you won't fall on.
I followed trad climbs for 2 years before leading. I started on 5.9's with an expert climber and gradually learned everything as I moved up the grades. When I started leading it was on a 5.6 that I could have climbed blindfolded, but the emphasis of that climb was learing how to place gear. To put things in perspective for you, I was leading 5.12 sport and following 5.11+ trad when I led my first trad climb. I think it was good to become that comfortable with climbing trad before I started pushing it on the sharp end.
|
|
|
|
|
wanderinfree
Oct 26, 2004, 4:21 AM
Post #33 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 7, 2004
Posts: 476
|
In reply to: Follow as many pitches as you can before leading, even if it is for a couple years. Don't be in a hurry to start trad leading. Wait and gain experience on single pitch as well as multi-pitch. Get more experience sport leading, too. You should be very comfortable on 5.9's before you start leading anything. And when you start leading, lead easy routes that are easy to protect and you know you won't fall on. I followed trad climbs for 2 years before leading. I started on 5.9's with an expert climber and gradually learned everything as I moved up the grades. When I started leading it was on a 5.6 that I could have climbed blindfolded, but the emphasis of that climb was learing how to place gear. To put things in perspective for you, I was leading 5.12 sport and following 5.11+ trad when I led my first trad climb. I think it was good to become that comfortable with climbing trad before I started pushing it on the sharp end.
Great advice. I just started trad leading these past two weeks, and I've followed the pattern you laid out above almost to a tee. Been seconding for 2 years, and climbing 9/10- pretty comfortably. And the nicest part about learning to trad lead is the interesting dicotomy of climbing 5.5-6 now. Adds an element of relaxation to learning to trad lead since it's on routes that I would almost solo.
|
|
|
|
|
thisflash
Oct 26, 2004, 4:37 AM
Post #34 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 5, 2004
Posts: 64
|
In reply to: Adds an element of relaxation to learning to trad lead since it's on routes that I would almost solo.
I know what you mean. I actually soloed an easy 5.8 before I led anything. Then I got on other 5.8s and it was all about placing gear. I could take forever getting the gear just right and never get pumped. And now that my placements are solid, I'm able to push it on the hard stuff.
|
|
|
|
|
david.yount
Deleted
Oct 26, 2004, 4:54 AM
Post #35 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered:
Posts:
|
In reply to: In reply to: Follow as many pitches as you can before leading, even if it is for a couple years. Don't be in a hurry to start trad leading. Wait and gain experience on single pitch as well as multi-pitch. Get more experience sport leading, too. You should be very comfortable on 5.9's before you start leading anything. And when you start leading, lead easy routes that are easy to protect and you know you won't fall on. I followed trad climbs for 2 years before leading. I started on 5.9's with an expert climber and gradually learned everything as I moved up the grades. When I started leading it was on a 5.6 that I could have climbed blindfolded, but the emphasis of that climb was learing how to place gear. To put things in perspective for you, I was leading 5.12 sport and following 5.11+ trad when I led my first trad climb. I think it was good to become that comfortable with climbing trad before I started pushing it on the sharp end. Great advice. I just started trad leading these past two weeks, and I've followed the pattern you laid out above almost to a tee. Been seconding for 2 years, and climbing 9/10- pretty comfortably. And the nicest part about learning to trad lead is the interesting dicotomy of climbing 5.5-6 now. Adds an element of relaxation to learning to trad lead since it's on routes that I would almost solo.
david yount.
|
|
|
|
|
aikibujin
Oct 26, 2004, 12:53 PM
Post #36 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 28, 2003
Posts: 408
|
Regarding books you should read, Freedom of the Hills and John Long's anchor books are all good resources. But they don't deal specifically with leading trad. If your ultimate goal is to lead trad, then Heidi Pesterfield's Traditional Lead Climbing: Surviving the Learning Years is what I would recommend. It's probably the most comprehensive book on leading trad currently available.
|
|
|
|
|
aka_fred
Oct 26, 2004, 1:26 PM
Post #37 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 23, 2004
Posts: 16
|
Holy Crap there's a lot to read on this thread.
Here's the deal, what would you feel comfortable with? If you've cleaned 100 pitches or whatever and you'd feel comfortable with it then great. If you feel comfortable learning as you go, then great. The safest way is to have an experienced climber either to climb with or to at least watch, there are lots of things to remember when leading, placement, rope and gate direction, change overs and stations... the list goes on. I've know people who climbed three times before they led for the first time and now are excellent leaders.
As for the rule of thumb that you clime for years before leading, WHAT?? I mean, seriously people, years? It's one thing if you have a partner that leads and you climb with them for years, but if you're ready sooner... why not? You can be taught how to lead from your belayer easier then when you're the belayer. Until you're putting the pro in the rock, how can you learn how to do it? Taking it out is different then putting it in. A good partner can instruct you from below if that was a good placement or not. And while I love to read about climbing, as someone said on this site somewhere, you can't really learn to climb by reading about it. You've got to get out there and touch the rock to learn...
|
|
|
|
|
mheyman
Oct 26, 2004, 2:11 PM
Post #38 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 25, 2002
Posts: 607
|
In reply to: I followed trad climbs for 2 years before leading. I started on 5.9's with an expert climber and gradually learned everything as I moved up the grades. When I started leading it was on a 5.6 that I could have climbed blindfolded, but the emphasis of that climb was learing how to place gear.
All good advice so far - but then
In reply to: To put things in perspective for you, I was leading 5.12 sport and following 5.11+ trad when I led my first trad climb. I think it was good to become that comfortable with climbing trad before I started pushing it on the sharp end.
If we had to be comfortable enough to lead 5.12 (even sport) then most of us would never lead. Leading 5.11 or 12 trad isn't even on the list of what most climbers will ever do.
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Oct 26, 2004, 2:27 PM
Post #39 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
Climber 1:
Spent a season following a competent leader, experienced -- first hand --objective hazards associated with trad climbing, practiced leading several times with a TR back up and is just now stepping onto his first lead, an easy (for him) climb with good stances and simple, plentiful gear opportunities.
Climber 2:
Has been leading 5.10 regularly in the gym for the past year, bought a rack, climbed one "mock lead," and is now about to hop on the same first route.
In general, which of these two people has a better chance of success?
That's the type of question you have to ask yourself when you decide to take a step up into traditional climbing. To be sure, everybody is different, and that's why nobody can answer those questions for you. But make no mistake, this is what is meant by "taking personal responsibility." Throughout your life you will make decisions and deal with the consequences, and like no other activity, climbing will reward you for the correct choices and punish you for the incorrect.
I'm not saying that Climber 2 in the example above is dead meat; the crags are full of competent leaders who started that way. Likewise, the graveyard is full of people who followed in Climber 1's footsteps.
My advice is this: just be aware of the consequences of your decisions, and if you can't accept them, stop climbing.
|
|
|
|
|
thisflash
Oct 26, 2004, 5:22 PM
Post #40 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 5, 2004
Posts: 64
|
In reply to: If we had to be comfortable enough to lead 5.12 (even sport) then most of us would never lead. Leading 5.11 or 12 trad isn't even on the list of what most climbers will ever do.
You make a great point, but I was just offering a little perspective. Everyone's abilities are different and so for some people climbing comfortably on 5.10s sport and 5.9s following trad will be enough to start leading. In this case their first leads should be on really easy 5.5s.
|
|
|
|
|
hyhuu
Oct 26, 2004, 5:57 PM
Post #41 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 25, 2001
Posts: 492
|
You start trad leading after you are properly tied-in, racked your gears, put on your helmet, on belayed and most important of all, emptied your blader :) Serisouly, once you have learned how to build a solid anchor with gears, the rest is all mental. Climb on.
|
|
|
|
|
fredbob
Oct 26, 2004, 6:30 PM
Post #42 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 7, 2003
Posts: 455
|
[Response modified from previous answer to similar post/question]
There has been some good advice given above. But, I have to seriously question the formula of following for 2 years and climbing at a high standard before venturing out on the lead. That seems a bit extreme, but only you can be the judge.
Still, following an experienced leader is probably the best way to learn some of the skills necessary to lead trad.
When following:
(a) observe the gear/placements when cleaning,
(b) ask questions about gear, where and why placed, and
(c) analyze the entire protection/belay system based upon what you have read and have learned.
You may find that the person you are following is making mistakes and you should not blindly accept whatever they do as the best or only way of approaching leading.
I'd suggest John Long's leading book as a good primer. Freedom of the Hills, while authorative, is perhaps a bit too much for starting out.
To trad lead, it is vital that you:
(1) understand how to place reliable gear,
(2) be able to quickly size up protection options and what piece will fit,
(3) know how to anticipate forces placed upon the gear,
(4) see ahead where crux sections may be (so to protect these ahead of time),
(5) see where the route line goes to runner gear to avoid rope drag and avoid gear re-orienting itself (cams) or pulling out (nuts) as a result of the rope running through it,
Most important is to be able to set up a good belay anchor which will work not only for belaying the second person up, but to address the possibility of belaying a person on a second pitch (which may stress the anchor in different directions in the event of a fall).
While it may be okay (and probably a good idea) to overprotect leads when you are new to trad leading, ultimately, you will need to learn when to run it out and when to stop and place pro. If you do run out easier sections, it is vital that when you stop to place gear that the pro is bomber (you might consider placing two pieces above a runout).
It has been suggested to start sport leading outside as a transition of sorts from indoor leading to trad leading. There is some merit in this idea because you will find that once you get out of the very controlled environment of a gym, even a outdoor sport climb presents a much more complex picture than a gym.
But, a sport route will not teach you about placing reliable gear/anchors (while leading). Similarly, you will not develop a "head" for leading trad on sport routes. The psychology for trad and sport can be quite different [falling or working a sport route is common if not expected; this is not true and potentially dangerous on most trad routes.] If you want to lead trad, you should be climbing trad, though climbing sport as well will help develop other skills and strengths that will be helpful.
For your first leads, lead routes you have followed before. You will know where good stances/rests are and will have some idea of where good pro can be placed. The familiarity with the route will eliminate the element of the unexpected and simplify the process of tying into the sharp end.
Lastly, be careful leading very easy trad routes. Because they are lower angle and often have large features, a fall has a much higher prospect for injury than a steeper/cleaner route that might be more technically difficult.
Be safe.
[minor edits for clarity]
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Oct 26, 2004, 7:11 PM
Post #43 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
If you want to become a trad leader, I would suggest *against* starting with sport climbing. Better to start on trad climbs where you are well within your safety range in terms of physical difficulty, and can just focus on placing gear, sling lengths, etc.
By the way, I had followed only perhaps one or two pitches before I started leading, but I mostly kept the leads down in the 5.2-5.5 range until I had a lot more experience under my belt (including seconding a lot of experienced leaders).
GO
|
|
|
|
|
blueeyedclimber
Oct 26, 2004, 7:55 PM
Post #44 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 4602
|
In reply to: Regarding books you should read, Freedom of the Hills and John Long's anchor books are all good resources. But they don't deal specifically with leading trad. If your ultimate goal is to lead trad, then Heidi Pesterfield's Traditional Lead Climbing: Surviving the Learning Years is what I would recommend. It's probably the most comprehensive book on leading trad currently available.
Agreed. I have Freedom of the Hills, Advanded Rock Climbing (Long), and Heidi Pesterfield's book, and the latter is what I reach for first when looking something up. I am at the stage where I have a lot of knowledge, but relatively speaking in the trad world, i am still a beginner. I don't need to read the book cover to cover, but this book is laid out in a very reader friendly way, so I can find specific trad climbing info very easily. It is definitely a good addition to your library, and this is the first time I have seen it mentioned.
Josh
|
|
|
|
|
blueeyedclimber
Oct 26, 2004, 7:59 PM
Post #45 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 19, 2002
Posts: 4602
|
In reply to: If you want to become a trad leader, I would suggest *against* starting with sport climbing. Better to start on trad climbs where you are well within your safety range in terms of physical difficulty, and can just focus on placing gear, sling lengths, etc. By the way, I had followed only perhaps one or two pitches before I started leading, but I mostly kept the leads down in the 5.2-5.5 range until I had a lot more experience under my belt (including seconding a lot of experienced leaders). GO
And I also agree with this. Although this is how most climbers progressions go...(tr, sport, trad), myself included, sport climbing does nothing to prepare you for trad. It is very separate. You may argue that it will help you with your lead head, but they are not even in the same ballpark. Sport climbing is great and I love it, but they are apples and oranges.
Josh
|
|
|
|
|
leinosaur
Oct 26, 2004, 8:24 PM
Post #46 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 6, 2003
Posts: 690
|
fredbob said:In reply to: Lastly, be careful leading very easy trad routes. Because they are lower angle and often have large features, a fall has a much higher prospect for injury than a steeper/cleaner route that might be more technically difficult.
Just wanted to highlight that: AMEN, FREDBOB!!!!!
Those ledgy routes are great for setting the pro, but it's almost like each piece being your first; you could deck on the ledges, too!
|
|
|
|
|
caughtinside
Oct 26, 2004, 8:36 PM
Post #47 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 8, 2003
Posts: 30603
|
In reply to: In reply to: If you want to become a trad leader, I would suggest *against* starting with sport climbing. Better to start on trad climbs where you are well within your safety range in terms of physical difficulty, and can just focus on placing gear, sling lengths, etc. By the way, I had followed only perhaps one or two pitches before I started leading, but I mostly kept the leads down in the 5.2-5.5 range until I had a lot more experience under my belt (including seconding a lot of experienced leaders). GO And I also agree with this. Although this is how most climbers progressions go...(tr, sport, trad), myself included, sport climbing does nothing to prepare you for trad. It is very separate. You may argue that it will help you with your lead head, but they are not even in the same ballpark. Sport climbing is great and I love it, but they are apples and oranges. Josh
I disagree. Sport climbing won't help you learn gear placements at all, but it will help your climbing, and get you a lot stronger. That strength will help you out when you're trying to place a piece from a crappy stance.
|
|
|
|
|
old_apple_juice
Oct 27, 2004, 4:14 PM
Post #48 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 15, 2004
Posts: 54
|
I started trad leading this year
Sport leading is nice to start, because you can get the feel above being above protection and trying to mess with clipping things during climbing.
I use the '5.fun' theory (Bill Mitchell, 2004) for trad leading. Start leading on something you could easily free solo. For me, that was a single pitch 5.4 (I don't think I've ever seen someone write 5.4 on RC.com). It was fun, I could spend a long time making placements and messing with gear.
After getting in some situations where I had to lead above my ability level to finish climbs other people started, my frazzled nerves decided that 5.fun is where it's at for now.
It's nice to get seconded by an experienced trad leader because they can evaluate your placements (on a 5.fun climb) and when you place stuff yourself you learn more.
Gyms are fun, but gym climbing to trad leading is like comparing cartoons to Clockwork Orange. Not the same but they're both on television.
Andrew
|
|
|
|
|
cracklover
Oct 27, 2004, 5:07 PM
Post #49 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 14, 2002
Posts: 10162
|
In reply to: Sport climbing won't help you learn gear placements at all, but it will help your climbing, and get you a lot stronger. That strength will help you out when you're trying to place a piece from a crappy stance.
Yes, sport climbing, gym climbing, and boulering are all fine supplements which will help you gain power and endurance. But power and endurance are not pre-requisites for the routes a beginning trad leader should be climbing. Or, put another way, plenty of people worked their way up through the grades long before there even was such a thing as sport climbing.
Once you gain the competency at trad leading to be able to push your physical limits on lead - perhaps a season or three (less time if you really climb a lot) - then sport climbing can certainly help you push the envelope. But again, for your first season or three, your physical limit should not be relevant to your trad climbing. Like old_apple_juice and many others have said - your first leads should all be on 5.easy terrain.
GO
|
|
|
|
|
eastvillage
Oct 27, 2004, 5:18 PM
Post #50 of 59
(5940 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 14, 2004
Posts: 262
|
Several comments here suggest that one needs to climb say, 5.10 in a gym, maybe follow 5.9 trad on rock before you venture out on your own.
Well, I started in 1970 and trust me, none of my friends could get any where near a 5.9 but that didn't stop us from starting to lead and having a great time. My first lead was a 5.0! I was lucky because we climbed in the Gunks, the world headquarters of exciting, easy climbs, but we still went climbing (leading) and soon worked our way up the grades within a year.
Numbers don't make you safe. There is no timeline for "normal" progression. You might love leading or be scared SH#%#*##!
Leading demands that you learn as much as you can and
then take that leap of faith. Sorry, that's the way it is.
Remember, climbing is a dangerous sport that can result in serious injury or death.
Belive it, gravity never sleeps.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
