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oklimber
Nov 1, 2004, 5:14 AM
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Leave quartz the way it is . Thats all i got to say
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diesel___smoke
Nov 1, 2004, 6:14 AM
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In reply to: Hey diesel_smoke, For starters who cares what you have climbed in Yosemite. There are several climbers who have been climbing at Quartz for a long, long time and have done El Cap multiple times. We don't care about your resume' of aid climbs, you came to Quartz and thought you did something special by supposebly putting up an aid climb but didn't want to reach the summit? What summit? What the hell are you talking about? You have no guidebook, SO you have no idea what has been done! Period! Don't come to Quartz swingin' a hammer and putting in anything, save your hammer swinging for the Valley on an aid line that dicates it! BTW your partner was the one spraying about an A3 rating.
As for not having a guidebook, that is my choice, I hate ratings (by the way, many FA's choose not to have their routes published, so owning a guide book really doesn't mean sh!t). But, I can tell when I am climbing a thin, virgin fissure ('thin' generally always being a needed prerequisite). It comes from a level of experience of having seen how piton scars are created, and evolve. This hairline fissure was only climbable on pins, accepting tipped-out beaks and knifeblades bottoming-out in less than 1/2". Oh yeah, I'll let you ponder this - the rivet did not serve as protection. Try to figure out how that could even be possible :lol:
As for telling me not to aid in Quartz, blow me. There are aid routes there, and people will continue to aid out there, as will I. Should you feel otherwise and wish to stop me, I'd be more than willing to let you know which dates in the future I'll be visiting. But keep talking sh!t and I'll devote my visits to chopping your sport routes; leaving you with nothing to climb.
My promise still stands - Anyone wish to show me the feature I climbed had already been climbed on a prior ascent, and I'll humbly remove my rivet, admit my wrong, and post my name.
But it's not gonna happen. Hahaha.
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13point75
Nov 1, 2004, 4:17 PM
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I think the pro and cons are really not that far apart here. Except for this aid-dude - hey man, there is piles of shitty rock all over the country, why don't you go nailing elsewhere? There should be room for compromise and fruitful discussion rather than polemics and accusations.
I don't think anyone really proposed bolts on Snake's Head. Someone rather assumed that to dramatize matters. Pizza Face... I don't even know where that is. They say it's a long bouldering problem... nobody suggested bolts there.
I think many of these posters don't listen at all. Please do - so we can talk and don't end up SHOUTING at each other and not hearing what we have to say. And if you've never been to Oklahoma and don't know the place, then read the posts but please waive your amendment rights on this one and shut up. It's hard enough arguing with those who know what they're talking about.
:D
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leinosaur
Nov 1, 2004, 5:30 PM
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In reply to: I don't think anyone really proposed bolts on Snake's Head. Someone rather assumed that to dramatize matters. Pizza Face... I don't even know where that is. They say it's a long bouldering problem... nobody suggested bolts there.
That's what's weird about this thread - it's an rc.com thread in reference to an ongoing discussion on the WMCC message board (wichitamountains.org , news, message board)
Most of it has to do with Bourbon Street Direct, which was bolted by Jane (the "most local" Quartz climber I've heard of, she lives 4 miles away) in the 90's, and immediately chopped by Tony.
Marion says Terry asked Duane (FA) at the Spring Fling if he objected to replacing those bolts, and Duane didn't.
BUT Marion also mentioned that he "would support" "a few bolts" on Pizza Face and Snakeshead as it would make a cool multi-pitch route for beginning leaders.
I didn't paste Marion's message because he made it on the Coalition website, not here. Tony has posted to both (crankmarklar).
For further background:
Marion's a Coalition board member, past pres. of the local Access Fund chapter & was (among many others) a key player in getting Quartz purchased & donated to the state park service.
Tony (crankmarklar) wrote the new, excellent guidebook & cut his climbing teeth at Quartz.
While I'm a noob and should just stay out of it - there's lots to climb there for me before I would ever need more.
Just to spray a bit, though, I'll mention that I've climbed there four out of the last 10 days, with most of the in-betweens being rainy ones, and I grew up just 40 miles north of there so it feels local even though I was ignorant of climbing when I lived nearby full-time.
It's an amazing, amazing crag, near and dear to the hearts of the hardcore, so passions run high when it's mentioned.
with bated breath,
leinosaur
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redtail
Nov 1, 2004, 5:57 PM
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I'm really curious to see exactly where his "new" aid route is. The only spot I can think of at Quartz that would offer an aid line 200' in height with free climbing still above would be "Anorexia". By his description, that is what I'm picturing. Given all the activity there over the years, it's hard to believe that a line like he describes has been missed. I'm thinking that he probably repeated Anorexia and since he didn't have a guide book, he didn't know it has been climbed. I've been up Anorexia before (1986) and the pins and knifeblades we used didn't scar the rock much because you couldn't drive them too deep under the expanding flake. So D.S., find a local or borrow a guidebook and make sure of the line before you claim a 1st at Quartz. BTW, did you take any photos?
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cordata
Nov 1, 2004, 6:59 PM
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I believe that they were aid climbing on the far east side of the wall, the area between "Hand Crack" and "Have Gun Will Travel."
This area is not well documented in any guidebook -- you definitely need a local. I do believe, however, that there are good lines there that could be put up and / or rediscovered.
Dave
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couloir
Nov 1, 2004, 7:10 PM
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If you can't find something to climb in Tuolumne or Oklahoma that suits your mental abilities, then you shouldn't be climbing. Both places have tons of routes, both runout and well protected. If you think everything at Quartz is runout, then go to WMNWR.
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diesel___smoke
Nov 1, 2004, 7:39 PM
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No, it's not Anorexia. It's on a completely different side of the wall.
Some details about the route. Climb a slab or out of a tree (I did both because I had to retreat to the car for more beaks) onto a ramp beneath a roof, roughly about 20'. No pro. Zip up rack and aiders (it's a pain in the ass to climb with them) Locate flair, place vertical blades till you turn the lip. Be warned, they're spicy and go in less than a 1/2". Change to beaks after you turn the lip. A fall in this spot will end up with you impacting the ramp on your back and rolling to the ground, or a direct ground fall. Crack ends. Try and figure out the next several moves. Watch out for all the cactus - I didn't remove it. :lol: I'm keep this a secret how this section was climbed. It's pretty damn spicy. :twisted: Don't fall - the consequences are serious, but not deadly, imo. Climb short slab to sloping ledge. Do not destroy [any] the vegetation! Leave it alone, I don't give a fu(king shit if you have a hundred cactus needles in you at this point - I did. Some good gear at the ledge, gets 'semi-spicy' quick though toward the slab. Bring your hooks.
Traverse left about 30', on a slab. No pro; bad, swinging fall with tons of gear ripping. Possible ground fall. Ledge, belay next pitch (although I did this all in one pitch). It's wide, but easy free climbing . I had no pro for this section (it's like bigbro wide), but you could just puff up if you were going to fall. I have a picture of my partner following this section, I'll post it with his permission. Slab for 30-5', no pro above wide section. Not bad, I did it in approach shoes. Traverse to boulders at right. I 'French-Freed' these two moves. Another ledge, 'seat' right in front of anchor. Turn corner on chimney/crack climbing. Loose boulder blocking crack, chimney ends. I nailed and hooked around this loose block. It's loose - finess your way around it. Probably be able to free climb around it at 5.12 level. Watch the rope drag, it kind of sucks here. This is as far as we went. The next is a lovely slab, but unprotectable. Probably goes free around 5.8-9 or below as long as we could see it. No bolts in sight, but it's not uncommon for hardmen to forego placing pro (bolts/rivets) on 'easy' slabs. It's possible this has been climbed, along with the easy free climbing above the ledge (I'd bet money that section has been climbed).
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hugepedro
Nov 1, 2004, 9:34 PM
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Please don't retro-bolt B.S.D. (or Snake's Head either).
I think the routes that have been retro-bolted so far are fine. I have climbed them all, and enjoyed them. They are still in keeping with the spirit of Quartz (somewhat spicy), and they offer more climbing opportunities (just enough in my opinion, I don't think we need anymore, there are plenty of other routes there).
I climbed/lead B.S.D. for the first time last year. I loved it. I don't think it is 5.8. No moves harder than 5.7. It is an easy, and very pleasant cruise, that at the same time provides a little entertainment for your head. I am definitely not some badass climber. I only lead 5.9, and 5.10 on good days. Having B.S.D. available to a climber of my ability, something a little below my limit but a good head test, is invaluable, I think.
I have not yet climbed S-Wall, but I want to. I think B.S.D. has help me prepare for that. The cool thing about Quartz is that it's one of the few places where you can experience a head test. And what I think is really cool is there are routes of progressing difficulty where you can move up in the head test game as you are ready. I am certainly not going to climb Snakeshead and then jump on S-Wall thinking I'm ready, but I have a few routes available to me, like B.S.D., that help me build up to S-Wall. If we retro-bolt the few routes like this that are left we will lose this really cool aspect of Quartz.
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crankmarklar
Nov 1, 2004, 9:51 PM
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Well put. Congrats on your lead of B.S.D. I agree it's probably in the 5.7 range but a little temp. change and the thing feels harder.
It's cool to hear that climbers like yourself are pushing themselves mentally at Quartz.
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13point75
Nov 1, 2004, 10:07 PM
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This whole talk of "head tests" and "commitment" on a solo route - try explaining to me in plain English why climbing a route that has bolts on it and consciously and deliberately and extremely cool-headedly NOT CLIPPING THE BOLTS - as some have suggested - is taking away from the challenge. To me, if I were a solo-dude, that would be like slippin' another round in the chamber in Russian Roulette, the ultimate uppin' of the ante...
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cordata
Nov 1, 2004, 10:52 PM
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The "Don't clip the bolts" argument seems to come up quite a bit from advocates of retro-bolting.
The best I can try to explain is that when a climb is retro-bolted the original climb is gone and there is a new climb in its place. Sure a soloist can avoid the bolts on that climb -- just like they can avoid the bolts on any other climb.
At Quartz, we as a climbing community made a decision that we would rather have a climb called "El Tesoro" than a solo called "Last of the dead guys." Same rock. Same rating. But totally different climbs. We kept the names on some of the other retro-bolted climbs.. but even though they have the same rock and the same name, maybe even the same rating they are different climbs.
When we climb those runouts (maybe they are R, X, whatever) we like the feeling of doing the climb as its always been. You think about how somebody did the first ascent - maybe in hiking boots, somehow putting in a bolt on lead...
So if bolts are added the climb is different -- you either believe this or you don't -- I don't know how to explain it any differently. It's one of the last things we have left to link ourselves to the past -- you can now call on your cell phone for a helicopter rescue for example -- but many of us would rather not have that handy bolt just for the sake of convenience.
Anybody else care to take a crack at explaining that one??
Dave
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hugepedro
Nov 1, 2004, 11:02 PM
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In reply to: This whole talk of "head tests" and "commitment" on a solo route - try explaining to me in plain English why climbing a route that has bolts on it and consciously and deliberately and extremely cool-headedly NOT CLIPPING THE BOLTS - as some have suggested - is taking away from the challenge. To me, if I were a solo-dude, that would be like slippin' another round in the chamber in Russian Roulette, the ultimate uppin' of the ante...
Standing at the bottom of a climb, and looking up at it, pondering your ability, your cajones, your head, and your mortality - seeing pro, whether it's 1 bolt or 4, makes a huge difference in how much you have to be willing to commit in order to climb that route.
Deciding to do the route, knowing that once you get on it your only choices are a) finish it, b) down climb if you can, or c) take a real nasty fall - THAT is commitment! To me there are 2 components of a "head test" route, making the commitment, then keeping your head together when on route - both are an essential part of the experience for me.
Surely you understand this because you have stood at the bottom of the climb and said, "nope, not me". Why? Because the commitment was too great for your tastes, correct? I understand that because I've made that same decision on many routes.
I've never skipped a bolt in my life. If it's there, I'll clip it. What's different about these bold routes, what sets them apart from the other 97% of routes that require very little commitment, is that I know that if I really want that route bad enough I've just got to sack up and do it, I've got to make the commitment. That is usually not an easy thing to do (for a climber like me, anyways), but the reward is tremendous.
There are a lot of routes at Quarts that are well protected. But there aren't many like B.S.D., that offer a head test for us moderate climbers. I think it would be a shame to lose that one.
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therealbovine
Nov 1, 2004, 11:06 PM
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So frustrating....
Is ther no more respect left in the climbing community? Is it only the climbers with years of experience that feel that gut wrenching, sick feeling when this topic pops up?
Bolting these routes is a direct 'F U' to the first ascensionist. Be it a climb that was first soloed or considered runout, at areas such as Quartz, that respect ground-up ethics as the standard (or at least used too), these routes should not be tampered with. If you cannot climb the route as it was done, or as it has been done for years, then work towards doing it in that style. Wow! What a novel idea. Adding bolts where no bolts have been before on an existing route is as low as chipping holds. It makes it more comfortable for the masses, but degrades the community as a whole. This new train of thought that climbing should be brought down to a level of comfort for every climber is mad! Every climber should know there own abilty and climb routes within said ability. If they would like to climb these R or X routes, then they should work towards that comfort level.
PLESE do not allow these climbs to be degraded and brought down to a level of less commitment and weak determination.
Russel, Terry, Tony, Duane...your thoughts????
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imnotbob
Nov 1, 2004, 11:34 PM
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I voted no.
A couple of years ago though I probably would have voted in favor of a bolt or two on BSD and even on Snakeshead. So what changed?
I'm not sure I can put it into words but ...I think I have a better perspective on the reasons I climb, I have a deeper appreciation of what a treasure Quartz Mtn is, and because I have seen myself (very slowly) grow into a better climber (physically and mentally) I know that as I continue to improve (God willing), Quartz will continue to provide positive experiences for me.
Some days are lesson days, some days are practice, and others are test days. Quartz has it all. Different levels of climbing as well as different levels of commitment.
B.S.D. is a great climb (I actually perfer it to the standard route) although I have not 'led' it. I'd jump on it right away as a lead if it had a a bolt or two but as it is, it makes a nice test piece for a moderate physical but high commitment climb for me. An experience rather than just a climb.
Snakeshead is a classic experience that would be reduced to a 'practice slab' if it was bolted.
13point75-
Skipping bolts is not the same as soloing (unless you are skipping bolts because you don't have draws/a rope/... with you). The level of commitment are two different levels. Just knowing the bolts are there give you the opportunity to bail if things get too risky for you - less commitment. The problem is a part of your brain keeps bringing up the question, "is it too risky yet?" because it can. You spend mental energy trying to answer the question "can I climb this?" rather than "how can I climb this?". With soloing, your brain is focused on each move that leads to finishing the climb.
I don't know how 'plain english' this is but this is how I see it.
~f
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diesel___smoke
Nov 2, 2004, 2:55 AM
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Would anyone like to see some bolts chopped at Quartz?
PM me any requests... priority/preference will be given to bolts placed on rappel, or with power drills, and those added to existing routes. Oh, and retros :twisted:
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13point75
Nov 2, 2004, 2:34 PM
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Hey, diesel-dude, you gonna go out chopping bolts now? Haven't you read any of these posts? Get a guide-book, climb what's already there, and most of all behave !
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redtail
Nov 2, 2004, 4:06 PM
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Hey Diesel,
Thanks for the beta on the route. You know, you ought to show the route to some of the long time locals there. Perhaps it's a new line nobody ever thought about doing. Either way, it sounds to me like you did your best to not damage the line given that it was done on aid. I think that with the current issue about bolting at Quartz, when you mentioned placing a rivet, some folks perhaps jumped to a conclusion without knowing all the details. It really is a good idea to ask around first to get the history of a line. That way if you claim a 1st ascent, then there is no argument. I was the one who thought that perhaps you had done Anorexia. My mistake. I'm anxious to see where your climb is at. Even with the description you gave, I have no idea where it is located. I'm curious, since Quartz is part of the State Park system, aren't you supposed to get permission to place a fixed piece of hardware. I'm presuming a rivet falls into this classification. Correct me if I'm wrong. Also, chopping bolts would not serve any purpose except to "fan the flames". Definitely no need for THAT!
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doktor_g
Nov 2, 2004, 5:01 PM
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OK Climbers,
This is a common debate. As an Arkansas climber now living out west, I've always been very proud of the bold trad/mixed lines at AR crags. I get embarrased of overbolted lines, feeling that we've somehow betrayed our heritage.
You mentioned pros being enlarging the community and increasing safety. Community enlargement is good and bad. Showing others this unique pursuit is great, but that means increased wilderness traffic and the need to encourage ecologic understanding. If you need to maximize safety then you need to toprope. I'm not too bashful to back off a 5.5x. I'm not into falling, but there are times when I'm mentally ready for a free solo/minimally protected climb high in the grades. I'm no hardman, but I want to keep bold routes bold.
Maximize safety by alternate means. If you have to lead it. Place pro on rapell with exceptionally long runners hung off the bolts. That's reasonable and allows a "safe" lead experience without harming the stone or degrading the original boldness of the route. Consider this option with respect to the Oklahoma legacy which you'll be passing on in a few years. Someday, you'll be giving the advice to those searching for direction. The only ethic that we should be stringently adherent to is the golden rule of outdoor travel: "Leave no Trace."
Excellent question and thanks for the debate before just acting alone. For the record again, don't betray the legacy of bold FAs in Oklahoma. Practice by preplaced long runners and then lead it, or enjoy on top rope. Your climbing and OK climbing in general will be better off in the long run.
Sincerest regards,
Grover Shipman
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diesel___smoke
Nov 2, 2004, 7:29 PM
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In reply to: Hey Diesel, Thanks for the beta on the route. You know, you ought to show the route to some of the long time locals there. Perhaps it's a new line nobody ever thought about doing. Either way, it sounds to me like you did your best to not damage the line given that it was done on aid. I think that with the current issue about bolting at Quartz, when you mentioned placing a rivet, some folks perhaps jumped to a conclusion without knowing all the details. It really is a good idea to ask around first to get the history of a line. That way if you claim a 1st ascent, then there is no argument. I was the one who thought that perhaps you had done Anorexia. My mistake. I'm anxious to see where your climb is at. Even with the description you gave, I have no idea where it is located. I'm curious, since Quartz is part of the State Park system, aren't you supposed to get permission to place a fixed piece of hardware. I'm presuming a rivet falls into this classification. Correct me if I'm wrong. Also, chopping bolts would not serve any purpose except to "fan the flames". Definitely no need for THAT!
I didn't care to claim a '1st ascent,' my n00b partner was the one spraying about it. I do not talk about my routes - no one would have likely ever elicited a word about it from me had he not opened his mouth, and then be lynched for something he made no decision in. If there is a bolt I placed, I'll stand by it and let anyone who asks know that I placed it. It there is a bolt I chopped, I'll let anyone know who asks that I chopped it. I hide behind nothing. I don't care about chopping my bolts - I regularly chop my bolts as I climb my routes, same as Harding did on the Porcelain Wall (albeit I've never done an FA that big!). I don't care if anyone ever repeats them. In fact, in anyone feels so inclined, feel free to chop my rivet, just don't destroy any of the vegetation in doing so, and be sure to patch the hole. The 'rif-raff' need not apply, you'll likely be hurt before you reach it.
Also, I believe it had to be done on aid, at least the lower section did. I do not believe it is free climbable, and it's definitely not on the gear available. In hindsight you're probably right it's better asking around first, but when I began climbing the route I pretty quickly came to the conclusion that it had not been climbed. I really do prefer to not have much information about a route.
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cfnubbler
Nov 2, 2004, 7:58 PM
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This:
In reply to: Climb a slab or out of a tree (I did both because I had to retreat to the car for more beaks) onto a ramp beneath a roof, roughly about 20'. No pro. Zip up rack and aiders (it's a pain in the ass to climb with them) Locate flair, place vertical blades till you turn the lip. Be warned, they're spicy and go in less than a 1/2". Change to beaks after you turn the lip. A fall in this spot will end up with you impacting the ramp on your back and rolling to the ground, or a direct ground fall. Crack ends. Try and figure out the next several moves. Watch out for all the cactus - I didn't remove it. I'm keep this a secret how this section was climbed. It's pretty damn spicy. Don't fall - the consequences are serious, but not deadly, imo. Climb short slab to sloping ledge. Do not destroy [any] the vegetation! Leave it alone, I don't give a fu(king shit if you have a hundred cactus needles in you at this point - I did. Some good gear at the ledge, gets 'semi-spicy' quick though toward the slab. Bring your hooks. Traverse left about 30', on a slab. No pro; bad, swinging fall with tons of gear ripping. Possible ground fall. Ledge, belay next pitch (although I did this all in one pitch). It's wide, but easy free climbing . I had no pro for this section (it's like bigbro wide), but you could just puff up if you were going to fall. I have a picture of my partner following this section, I'll post it with his permission. Slab for 30-5', no pro above wide section. Not bad, I did it in approach shoes. Traverse to boulders at right. I 'French-Freed' these two moves. Another ledge, 'seat' right in front of anchor. Turn corner on chimney/crack climbing. Loose boulder blocking crack, chimney ends. I nailed and hooked around this loose block. It's loose - finess your way around it. Probably be able to free climb around it at 5.12 level. Watch the rope drag, it kind of sucks here. This is as far as we went. The next is a lovely slab, but unprotectable. Probably goes free around 5.8-9 or below as long as we could see it. No bolts in sight, but it's not uncommon for hardmen to forego placing pro (bolts/rivets) on 'easy' slabs.
Followed by this:
In reply to: I do not talk about my routes
Hilarious. Please, don't stop! This is great!
Unprotected cactus grovelling in your approach shoes. You're my hero.
-Nubbler
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diesel___smoke
Nov 2, 2004, 8:07 PM
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Do not take things out of context. It was also followed by...
In reply to: [I do not talk about my routes -] no one would have likely ever elicited a word about it from me had he not opened his mouth, and then be lynched for something he made no decision in.
And you're fu(king right it was done in approach shoes. You're just going to suffer if you aid in free climbing shoes for very long. I'm glad I'm your hero.
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canaan
Nov 2, 2004, 8:09 PM
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In reply to: Is ther no more respect left in the climbing community? Is it only the climbers with years of experience that feel that gut wrenching, sick feeling when this topic pops up?
I spend more time reading than posting but thought I'd respond...My first trip to Quartz was two weekends ago Oct. 22. Some great heady climbing (too bad we got rained off). I'm a relatively new climber but egotistical enough to think that I might one day want to climb an original work by our Oklahoma Hardmen. I don't want someone in the meantime to "protect" me by bolting something they were afraid of. I cherish my ability to look at a climb and say, "not yet." And I expect the rest of the community to use their own brain to decide if a climb is safe rather than changing it for every one else. Don't mess it. Leave No Trace. Whatever. There are plenty of choss piles in somebody's backyard if you want "safe". I just want to climb and will, but don't assume that everyone who comes after wants to have to choose to skip that bolt or clip to avoid the runout. If I want to avoid the runout I won't go to Quartz.
But what do I know. I'm gonna go check out the other forum. See you on Saturday am if anyone is going to Quartz. Supposed to be great weather.
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cfnubbler
Nov 2, 2004, 8:10 PM
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In reply to: I do not talk about my routes -] no one would have likely ever elicited a word about it from me had he not opened his mouth, and then be lynched for something he made no decision in.
I don't recall him asking you to leap to his defence. I think you like to hear yourself spray...
-Nubbler
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diesel___smoke
Nov 2, 2004, 8:15 PM
Post #50 of 58
(7275 views)
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Registered: Aug 9, 2003
Posts: 507
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If the dialog is too complex for you to follow or understand, please do not get involved in it. The details of the route were posted in an effort to determine if said route had actually been climbed before, I was specifically asked for them.
But similarly, it is a self-made decision of choice to defend him because he ultimately did not make any calls about the route. Any heat should be on me, not him about the choices made.
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