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dingus
Jan 29, 2005, 11:46 AM
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In reply to: My guess is if there was only trad climbing tomorrow there would be like an overnight 80% reduction in our ranks.
You're like a Climbing Mullah, preaching fundamentalism and theocracy.
Its here to stay. Not even with a jihad can you change the course of history.
DMT
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dirtineye
Jan 29, 2005, 5:40 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: My guess is if there was only trad climbing tomorrow there would be like an overnight 80% reduction in our ranks. You're like a Climbing Mullah, preaching fundamentalism and theocracy. Its here to stay. Not even with a jihad can you change the course of history. DMT
Dingus, you sure are stuck on religion lately. Healyj is a mullah, drkodos is, um, spawn of satan, who knows what you'll come up with next?
My question is, whre do the Unitarians fit in?
And do they come right back out or are they good pro?
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mack_north
Feb 24, 2005, 4:40 AM
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In reply to: My question is, whre do the Unitarians fit in?
I dated a Unitarian once - she came from a good bloodline, had lips like two nightcrawlers making love, high-payng job. I thought we were destiny. When she turned 30 she started getting this moustache thing going on. Couldn't get rid of it. It wasn't big and bushy like Ron Jeremy or Burt Reynolds in "Stroker Ace" but it was a distraction. I would even wait until she fell asleep and try and Nair that thing off of there. Nothing worked. So I dumped her. Broke her heart.
She asked me if it was because of the moustache. I lied and told her of course it wasn't, I wasn't THAT shallow. I told her I finally realized I was gay.
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crag_shwagger
Feb 24, 2005, 4:54 AM
Post #104 of 117
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I agree with you but just dont climb with him.- shwagger
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andrewscott
Feb 24, 2005, 5:10 AM
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Yah, sport may be the death of the sport. It's like anything, The more accesible you make it more pussys and posers are going to show up. In the end you can't let them get to you. Tell Mr. ShinyRack to Cowdoy Up and snag some FA's in you area. And the rest of them. . . Forget 'em
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viciado
Mar 7, 2005, 10:42 AM
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Just a simple point to argue:
Several people have lamented the number of people climbing... even dreaming that something like 80% would stop. I wonder how much technology we would be missing out on and how much more expensive the limited gear would be if the current market base did not exist.
I live in a country with a relatively small climbing community and we work hard to bring this sport and it variants to public view. This increases access to areas as well as availability of materials. It also increases traffic in the more accessible areas. I see it as a trade-off and just try to avoid the over-crowded areas at peak times. I also could care less if someone climbs the route before I do... as a matter of fact, its highly likely that they will.
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jackhammer
Mar 7, 2005, 10:57 AM
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Agreed....
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baigot
Mar 7, 2005, 12:37 PM
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I´m a lover of adventure climbing, find new places, climb sport routes in a Trad way. I (and the people who climb with me) try to find new crags for the others. I´m that type of climber. Not a strong climber but someone who claim for the "old" style of the climbing.
Well. I ask this simple question, Why bring this sport to public view???
Not for selfishness but i think climbing is becoming more a "sport" tan a discipline of mountaneering being on public view, and that i think is dangerous.
I see now more federal institutions putting intervention and regulation on climbing than years ago, because of the accidents occuring in comercial expeditions or newbies trying to do something out of their hands. This and other stuff is in detriment of climbing.
Is complicated but we must think about it for the good of our discipline,
Tanx,
Vicente
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viciado
Mar 7, 2005, 3:48 PM
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And thus is hijacked a perfectly enjoyable thread...
I see your point regarding regulation. As I stated above, there are specific advantages to raising public awareness. One of the advantages is public support, both financial and social. These advantages impact positively the sport, but as you said also give rise to the possibility of abuse (which, I believe is where this thread got its start). We then see the government getting involved and all sorts of complications.
The reality is that in our current global culture (whatever that is), information is gold. Bringing climbing and its various modes to light provides us with a better base from which we can develop and even defend various aspects of the sport. Thus I am in favor of bringing climbing to a greater level of public awareness.
No, my position is not a panacea.
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live2climb
Mar 7, 2005, 4:09 PM
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i belive that people are totaly different in their comfort levles and thats good cauz some people should not climb trad or even outside for that mater. some people are afrade and they will freeze up and have to end up geting rescued and thats no good. so they stay in a controlled invironment with top ropes and huge pads. That is fun for them and thats what counts, on the othor hand you get the people who do it for the adventure and they trad lead and love it and are comfortabile doing it so thats great they are having fun just like the kids in the gym that are scarde.
life is 4 living to the fullest and we all have diferent compacities to fill. and we all have too learn ourselves before we can judge someone else
thanks
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baigot
Mar 7, 2005, 4:17 PM
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Ok, I´m with you...but i going to bring my argument...
Public exposure did to Mountaneering in Argentina some abusive things. Parques Nacionales charge to climbers an ammount of money to climb some mountains, as they said "because their impact to the enviroment". :shock:
Why? They will be bring a rescue service? NO, they´ll bring a mainteinance to some refugies in the area? NO. Just for the "supposed" impact to enviroment.
But the tried to charge to climber but not to trekkers. Why?
I´m in favor of not to charge when you are in public lands, ´cause they are public, i mean of all argetinians. OR charge a little ammount for mainteinance purpuses.
For me, TO MUCH exposure to the public means too much troubles than the benefits you can get of it.
But as you said, it´s my opinion and is refutable.
Vicente
Argentina
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viciado
Mar 8, 2005, 9:57 AM
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Vincente,
Again, your point regarding regulation is well taken. Regulation of a given sport by non-practicioners (is that a word in English?) of the sport is problematic. While maybe not on the same scale as your issue, it is worth while pointing out tha access fees are normal for many extreme areas. Nepal evidently charges a per person fee for alpine climbing. I understand that some wilderness areas in the US also charge just to enter and extract heavy fines if you are found without a pass. Its a reality that is not going to change. While I do not think that it is fair, I recognize that public opinion goes a long way in changing government policy. By increasing positive public relations between climbers and the general pubic, the sport stands a better chance of "better regulation." If such a thing exists.
I cannot agree or sympathise more with the problem you stated. I simply have a different approach to a possible solution. I believe that reconciliation is always a worthy goal and that takes good Pubic Relations.
Peace,
Scott
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boymeetsrock
Apr 7, 2005, 10:34 PM
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viciado was right, knowledge is gold. the problem seems to be, inmho, that sprot and gym climbing place NO!!! emphasis on knowledge.
For example, some years ago a sport climber was seriously injured when his partner lowered him off the rope. the rope they used was 60m, the climb was 130ft. what the @#$% where they thinking.
the answer is that they were not thinking, or they just didn't know what they were doing.
gym and sport climbing while great excercise and training, have lead to degredation of the evn. as well as many injuries and bad attitudes via ignorance. We are suposed to be enjoying the outdoors, thats why it all began. rockclimbing should not be a pissing contest, but rather a common ground....
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dredsovrn
Apr 7, 2005, 10:51 PM
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Keep it real.
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kpj240789
Apr 7, 2005, 11:05 PM
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In reply to: kalc you may have been there and done that... but these gym rats will be climbing circle around you on trad, sport, aid, bouldering and ice because they've : started younger had coaching had more and better training climb year round have old trad mentors that accept change and see the future of climbing in the children they coach's hands if you wanna be f---ing old school and bad throw out those cams, light wire gate biners, spectra, off sets, 8.0 double ropes , forget those nice shooes with the sticky rubber, comfy harness rack up some pitons and steel ovals and go to f---ing town for f--- you're so bad ass it's amazing take ur trad rack to Rumney and hop on anything at Waimea, take it to Ceuse and see what you can get up yes i can get up some stuff at a trad cliff.. can YOU get up anything at certain sport walls? i forget which place but it's like if you dont lead 5.11c dont both going sure i cant jam for the life of me... but how do you do when your whole fat ass trad body is horizontal to the ground for half of the route?
I agree with you.
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akicebum
Apr 7, 2005, 11:31 PM
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I made the quote, "gym climbing has torn the heart out of climbing," when I posted this. I believe this from the bottom of my heart. Look at all of the posturing and climbing gucci that you see at your gym and crag. Look how many people aren't smiling or that are when they should be a little more focused on the task at hand. I am glad this post resurfaced. I was reading Alpinist 3 today and I came across a quote from Pavel Shabalin buried in Kelly Cordes's article that read as follows:
"Alpinism was exceptional and sacred because it was closed to the masses. And now it finds itsel in the same historical situation as is love. When love was poetry, it was exceptional and sacred. When mass media put love in TV and magazines it became pornography."
I have friends that I can no longer share a rope with. I have suffered, and loved what I do. Climbing is beautiful in its simplicity. It is an ultimate reality that I cherish and I could never again be without. Through it I have learned a lot about life; what matters, what is trivial, and what makes me happy as a person.
While this article adresses a subject that may seem petty to a lot of people it strikes at the heart of a coulture that has chosen mediocrity over mastery. We choose to speak instead of act. There is this idea of being well rounded and a jack of all trades, but we are ending up with a population that does nothing well, and many things terribly. But we group together and tell eachother that we are good at all things which we are terrible at. Most actually resent people that have the drive to excel at a discipline.
It is fine to recreate and climbing is a healthy fun way to get outside, but it is dangerous and can be hard on the envirionment. Someone else fun can ruin the experience for everyone else to come. People who place bolts on an existing line because they feel its their right to disgust me.
The attitudes in the gym and that have begun showing up on videos and in climbing magazines is one of competition and arrogance. I have a head that barely fits through the door, but I am encouraging and I am always supportive of people whether they are climbing in the gym or not. I do believe that if they choose to leave the gym then they have taken on the resposibility to learn what is acceptable in the area they are climbing.
Then there is my issue with people that do nothing but talk. There is no place for them. They just need to shut the f^ck up! Climb or don't climb, I don't care, but if your mouth is running you better be pulling down! Its, liers and sh*t talkers that give people like me that love climbing a bad name. But I gotta go so hope you are all getting some spring climbing in.
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cfmwh
Apr 7, 2005, 11:57 PM
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In reply to: Climbing, minus the bull, is just that. The very natural and child-like desire to get your butt up on top of stuff. Hell, if Darwin's right we're all monkeys down deep. And even if he's wrong, there's no doubt the basic desire already starts to show up, without any force at all, in the smallest of children. Sport, trad, boulders, big walls, little walls, mountains. It doesn't matter. Get your butt up there. Up on top. That's what we all wanna do. Look around, and see that's where it's at. Sure, it's nice to do it with some style and grace and power and control. Get up there by that 5.12b run-out trad route, or that 5.13b enduro-fest sport route or the hairy V10 highball. Or even that esthetic 5.8 dihedral, arching straight up to top, first climbed by Fred Beckey, 50 years ago. Safe, dangerous, that's all relative. What's safe for me, might just kill your ass. And what's safe for Peter Croft, would snuff me out in a second. But you know what really takes courage? To be that hardman mountaineer, the one who always dissed bouldering, and be willing to jump on that V1 boulder over there. The one that really scares your ass down deep. And then quaking your way up that thing, while looking like a total dork to all the 18 year-olds cranking those V8s nearby, you suddenly realize: THIS is where it's at. THIS is what it's all about. Getting my butt up on top. Or being that bold 5.11 trad man, the one who always dissed sport-climbing, and putting yourself on that 5.12+ sport climb, getting yourself thoroughly spanked in the process. And then pushing yourself hard to get from bolt to bolt. And finally making it to the chains, you realize that you DO have something to learn about climbing. But hey, you got your butt up on top. And THAT's where it's at. Or being that honed onsight, flash, redpoint 5.12-5.13 sport climbing dude. The one who always dissed those trad guys struggling on those easy 5.10s. And suddenly realizing that you've become 100% dependent on that little line of bolts up there. What was once the liberation that freed you to climb, is now your ball and chain. You have become dependent on the predesigned plans of the bolt placers. Where they lead, you must follow. Wanting freedom again, you put aside that onsight, flash, redpoint, follow the bolts, big numbers, sport climbing mentality. You take up some gear, learn how to place it, and try to go where the mountain leads. The big numbers are gone. The spray is gone. And you are now free to follow the natural lines of the mountain. And it leads you to the top, where you always wanted to go. So I'm thinking, maybe you guys went a little too hard on Kalcario. Maybe he's got a point in there somewhere. Anyways, I think that's what Dingus is trying tell us here. At least it made for some more interesting reading than another one of those 'best bouldering shoe' threads. So what if Kalcario is a dickhead when it comes to bouldering? Even a dickhead can speak the truth.
Good God, this is, hands down the best post I've ever read on this site. It's just, well, true.
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