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dirtineye
Jan 3, 2005, 10:06 PM
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In reply to: You're all fools. It's not the method of teaching that counts. It's the teacher. A good one can can impart enough knowledge with or without mock leading.
I'm not a fool, I'm a supergumbiewannabe, which is probably worse.
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j_ung
Jan 3, 2005, 10:18 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: You're all fools. It's not the method of teaching that counts. It's the teacher. A good one can can impart enough knowledge with or without mock leading. I'm not a fool, I'm a supergumbiewannabe, which is probably worse.
Not in my book, mister. supergumbiewannabe is the highest post to which one can aspire. I salute you.
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climbsomething
Jan 3, 2005, 10:27 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I done a couple mock sport leads. Mock sport leads!? What is this sport coming to? -Jay New sig: Mock sport leading is neither.
In reply to: Mock leading teaches good judgment. Should you place this piece here or save it for later? Should you run it out? Did you place too much gear already and now you have to run it out? |
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jakedatc
Jan 3, 2005, 10:37 PM
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Well, i'll put in my thoughts that mock leading does have it's place but only to practice placing gear.. to learn to lead you gotta lead(anyone can keep a cool head when the only risk is a 1ft fall)
i learned through a different path
i had TR'd for 2-3 years on and off before i went to the Rumney2.0 gathering
i learned to lead there, on bolts, on a route i had never TR'd before.. it was well within my range but certainly not at the bottom end
since then(about 1 year and change) ive led 80 sport routes.. not including repeats
during that time i also followed a friend climbing trad at the gunks, whitehorse and cathedral.. on a few of those occasions i led some easier pitches(i think i'm up to 12 now) that i was well within my "i almost can't fall" range.
to save rambling i'll just say that i learned more leading stuff well in my range then i did following (my personal learning style is having to do it.. i cant listen or see someone else do it and really comprehend it) what i do need more of is individual placement assessment.. like "well this is ok but a #3 would have worked better than the 2.5 because....."
also i need to get out with a few more solid leaders to compare styles and get different assessments of my own skills.. the way gabe leads is not the same as Edge etc
jake
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j_ung
Jan 3, 2005, 10:37 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Mock leading teaches good judgment. Should you place this piece here or save it for later? Should you run it out? Did you place too much gear already and now you have to run it out? hahahaha... yeah man, run out that TR...
Hold on, now. I can't think anything much more hardcore than runout toproping. Why would any sane person purposely put him or herself in danger like that, other than for the sheer joy of being in danger. That shit's core, girlie. Core, I say.
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dirtineye
Jan 3, 2005, 10:46 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: You're all fools. It's not the method of teaching that counts. It's the teacher. A good one can can impart enough knowledge with or without mock leading. I'm not a fool, I'm a supergumbiewannabe, which is probably worse. Not in my book, mister. supergumbiewannabe is the highest post to which one can aspire. I salute you.
HAHA then you should come climb the piddly route of the same name sometime. And a few others.
Can I be a fool AND a Supergumbiewannabe? How about a foolish supergumbiewannabe?
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jakedatc
Jan 3, 2005, 11:05 PM
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In reply to: Can I be a fool AND a Supergumbiewannabe? How about a foolish supergumbiewannabe?
isnt that a question for the nOOOb?? :lol:
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dirtineye
Jan 3, 2005, 11:11 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Can I be a fool AND a Supergumbiewannabe? How about a foolish supergumbiewannabe? isnt that a question for the nOOOb?? :lol:
Whoa, you might be right!
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eastvillage
Jan 3, 2005, 11:15 PM
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Forget mock leading, it's BS. Take your time and learn the old fashioned way: Follow lots of routes led by experienced people. Prcatice pro and belay setups ALOT.
Then read a guiide book and pick a climb that has FANTASTIC protection and is INCREDIBLY EASY, like 5.1.
Lead that climb, you won't be bored and you'll have led your first climb.
Stay far away from 5.6 5.7 or 5.8 on your first tries.
Have fun.
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cracklover
Jan 3, 2005, 11:36 PM
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In reply to: what i do need more of is individual placement assessment.. like "well this is ok but a #3 would have worked better than the 2.5 because....."
Yup, it's called ground school, and it's vital.
When I realized I was ready to start leading, I borrowed my friend's rack, and every day for a week I went straight from work to a choss-pile nearby, and until the sun set, I practiced setting pieces - playing with every combination, trying all different sorts of things with each one. Learning what worked, and what didn't. Making games to challenge myself. Once I felt like I knew what was what, I had good leaders check my pieces when I went out. *Then* I started leading.
In reply to: also i need to get out with a few more solid leaders to compare styles and get different assessments of my own skills.. the way gabe leads is not the same as Edge etc jake
True, I guess.
GO
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wolfram
Jan 3, 2005, 11:40 PM
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The season before I started leading I did some mock leading. In retrospect, I'd say that it did nothing for me, neither good nor bad.
During my first season leading I did some mock lead falling -- that is, falling such that the lead rope and pro took all the force with a slack top rope back up. For me, this was illuminating. It gave me some sense of what a lead fall felt like (and practice doing it in a controlled way) and it gave me a look at the system in action. At the time, it was helpful for me to see that, used correctly, the gear works. (didn't do it much though...too busy doing real leading on real easy climbs)
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jakedatc
Jan 4, 2005, 12:09 AM
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i don't think it has to be on the ground gabe.. i've only placed pro either for TR setups (1-2 times) or on lead But as i said my hardest lead was 5.8 at cathedral and 5.7 at gunks.. i shouldnt fall and if i'm freaked i can downclimb
it's also not my priority to become a great trad leader.. i have other goals so whatever i do in trad is to mix things up and give my body a break.. plus keep jer amused and not partnerless.
look at zeb.. if he wanted he could probably be a 5.12 trad leader if he wanted.. but a) it would take away from his sport and bouldering time.. b) i really dont think he likes exposure too much haha
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irockclimbtoo
Jan 4, 2005, 12:46 AM
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ab
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climbhighmg
Jan 4, 2005, 12:57 AM
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In my opinion mock leading is a very good tool to teach the basics of leading a climb, whether it be sport or trad. I learned the basics of sport climbing by mock leading in the gym and a bit outdoors. This tool gives you the chance to learn proper clipping techniques while on the wall. True you can practice your clipping on the ground, however it is a different story when you are climbing, as I am sure you know. Mock leading also gives you the time to become comfortable with different clipping stances and really helps with the mental aspect. Besides having good clipping technique (no back clipping, no back stepping the rope, etc.) it is extremely important build up your mental strength.
I personally haven't mock lead on a trad climb, but I also didn't start leading trad until after many, many sport climbs. So by the time I started to learn trad, I was very comfortable with lead climbing. True trad is not the same as sport in many ways, but I feel there are many basics when it comes to lead climbing that one needs to be comfortable with before they attempt to truly lead a climb.
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dorkmaster
Jan 4, 2005, 1:02 AM
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I'm not sure who this....
In reply to: or instead of being a fuckin asshole you might could just take that as a hint to tell me what mock leading is, jerkoff... and i read your profile, you've spent two years in a gym and climb 5.9's and you're calling ME a noob... next time you open your stupid mouth make sure you have room to talk
I havent updated my profile in a long time. I started climbing when I was 10. I couldn't drive. I didn't have anyone who really knew what they were doing climbing until I was 12. So I spent those 2 years in a gym getting better. Excuse me for being younger than you. I lead 5.11. I don't immediatly run to the computer and update it every time I lead a new route. Sorry. My bad, would you like me to start doing that?
:nono:
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kman
Jan 4, 2005, 1:48 AM
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In reply to: I spent those 2 years in a gym getting better. Excuse me for being younger than you. I lead 5.11. I don't immediatly run to the computer and update it every time I lead a new route.
...still a noob.
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mheyman
Jan 4, 2005, 2:09 AM
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In reply to: If you take any outdoor leading classes this is how you will learn.
Not true. Some guides/schools teachers my use this method. I easily avoided guides/schools who did not allow real leading when I first started.
I wanted to answer Cracklover - I guess that sums up what how I feel. I mean if it will help someone OK - whatever work for them. I felt as though it would have been a waste of time for me.
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jt512
Jan 4, 2005, 2:51 AM
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In reply to: You could surely learn trad without mock leading but it would be like learning how to ride a bike without training wheels...
I agree with the above entirely. Mock leading is as beneficial to learning to lead trad as training wheels are to learning to ride a bicycle. Both are, in fact, worthless.
In reply to: Mock leading teaches good judgment. Should you place this piece here or save it for later? Should you run it out?
No, it forestalls learning all of the above. Learning to lead trad is all about learning to take responsibility for yourself and climbing with confidence when the stakes are for real. That is not something you can simulate; you can't practice it in a safe environment because as soon as you make the environment safe you are no longer practicing the very thing you need to practice.
-Jay
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pt
Jan 4, 2005, 3:19 AM
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Listen to Jay. Leading trad is way more than the physical act of placing gear. You can learn to place gear on the ground, you cannot learn to lead on a toprope!
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blueeyedclimber
Jan 4, 2005, 4:17 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Hey Gabe, I have done it once early on, before I felt confident in my placements. Did it help? I have no idea. I think the only benefit in it is learning to place and go 'through the motions'. Since then, I have become much more confident leading trad, but that has more to do with my head than my physical ability, which mock leading does not help. So, mock leading sounds reasonable, but who knows if it really helps. I haven't seen any evidence yet. Josh Josh, I seem to remember that you had a setback early on in your leading career, when you tried to do something too hard, too soon. You fell and hurt your ankle (IIRC). Was that before or after your mock lead? GO
I believe it was after. I was very new when I did the mock lead. When I had my accident, i was still new, but because I was climbing hard on sport I got too ambitious. I see what your getting at, but I think it had more to do with that than with the mock lead which I hardly ever think about. I got it into my head that i was a good climber becasue I was starting to pull hard. Nothing like a little humble pie to kick your ass. I learned a valuable lesson that day, and it has done more to shape my lead head than any other incident. Not that I would advise anybody to climb above sketchy gear that is the only thing between you and a grounout. But.... I walked (limped) away and I think it was important that i went through it.
Back to the subject....still not convinced that it does anything for your leading ability...although I am not convinced it doesn't.
Josh
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bostonclimbah
Jan 4, 2005, 3:39 PM
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I think we missed eachother there Gabe. The point about Thin Air is, that's where I "learned to lead"... while leading. But to say that there is NO value in mock leading is just wrong in my opinion. That to me is like saying that there is NO value in TR'ing. We should just stick to bouldering until we feel confident enough to move into the vertical world. Yet virtually all of us started by TR'ing which to me is really just "Mock Climbing".
Finally, let's not forget what I said about Mocking with a competent mentor. It is definitely not "THE" method for learning to "LEAD" but it can be used as "ONE" component of overall learning for certain people in certain circumstances. Tom Brady spends a huge part of his training time throwing balls at static targets. Is that even remotely like trying throw to a running receiver with 300 LB Defensive linemen trying to kill you while you have 75000 screaming fans and millions of $$$ on the line? No. But it gives the coach a chance to hone and critique his mechanics in a sterile lab environment. Then he does drills and dresses for practice, then weights, then sprints etc. etc. etc.
BTW, part of the confusion is my fault because I forgot that you mentioned the idea of practice falls etc. and I'm not even going to weigh in on that one (cuz I think it's pure silliness). I don't ever remember anyone teaching me how to ride a bike and "take practice falls". I don't climb to fall.
As for my reference to the guides, suffice to say that 2 of the 3 are large with lots of insurance $$$ and assets while the 3rd has a 1991 Ford Contour. That POV was actually given to me by #3.
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cracklover
Jan 4, 2005, 5:07 PM
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Trying to hit a non-moving target with the ball is more like ground-school (placing gear, weighting it, getting feedback from an experienced climber, all while on the ground). But regardless, I agree that it's possible to learn a lot from mock leading with a competent instructor. It just doesn't teach you how to lead - you learn that by leading a lot.
Or, put another way, I bet Tom Brady learned more about how to win a game under pressure from playing a big game in high-school with his parents and his gf in the stands, than he does from throwing a ball at a target with his coach giving him feedback.
Learn to lead by reading, following experienced leaders, ground school, and leading lots of climbs (without falling!) far below your limit.
PS - I never had training wheels on my bike, so what do I know? :roll: :lol:
GO
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hosh
Jan 4, 2005, 5:19 PM
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I think ghost leads are the way to learn in a safe(r) environment than the sharp end. I learned to lead with a TR back up and I've taught at least 4 other climbers the same way. Seems like a sensible way to explore a new ave. of climbing.
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bostonclimbah
Jan 4, 2005, 5:31 PM
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Precisely, on both points.
I bet we could even climb together now. Let me know the next time your heading to Moby Grape and we can swing real mock leads... :twisted:
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