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dirtineye
Jan 4, 2005, 6:44 PM
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In reply to: BTW, part of the confusion is my fault because I forgot that you mentioned the idea of practice falls etc. and I'm not even going to weigh in on that one (cuz I think it's pure silliness). I don't ever remember anyone teaching me how to ride a bike and "take practice falls". I don't climb to fall.
You had a great post til this bit.
It's true you are not alone in your belief, I admit the idea is somewhat controversial, and that the high priest of falling practice is a friend of mine, and I endorse it highly, so to save time and any more buildup...(insert flamage of your choice here)...
There, I feel much better now.
The Main Point of falling practice is not to make falling a regular part of your adventure climbing, or to make you think a fall is great fun, or to encourage people to take more risks.
The Main point is that, in climbing people DO fall, so they should know how to do it in the best way possible. Falling may or may not be a good idea, but falling in a blind panic, or without a plan of action that you can carry out almost by instinct is definately a bad idea.
BTW A major companion to falling practice and accepting the idea that you can control a fall and come out OK is awareness of fall consequences.
Yes, sometimes you must not fall. But sometimes a fall is just going to happen, no matter what you desire. When it does happen, you need to be able to make the best of it. That's why we practice falling.
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bostonclimbah
Jan 4, 2005, 7:10 PM
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Dirt, I thought someone might catch that nuance but felt I was getting too wordy to explain. However, I was referring to parctice falls with regard to trusting gear. That IMHO is done in "Ground School" - GO, 2004.
I agree that the concept of knowing how to fall is important. But, it's really a part of the grander concept of having a plan and exercising sound judgement. Let's face it, there are some falls for which there is no preparation (i.e. ground/ledge falls, low angle slab falls [think whitehorse slabs]). I'm sort of being a hard a$$ now, but your point is well taken.
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jakedatc
Jan 4, 2005, 7:36 PM
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umm why do you need to practice lead falling on top rope? why not go find a nice shiny bolt and take a few whips off that.. or in the gym. if you want to test gear then bounce test it real hard
i do know one person that puts a few bomber pieces in and takes some short falls on it to "get it over with" at the beginning of the season to solidify his head game but i doubt that is the norm.
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dirtineye
Jan 4, 2005, 8:03 PM
Post #105 of 115
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In reply to: umm why do you need to practice lead falling on top rope? why not go find a nice shiny bolt and take a few whips off that.. or in the gym. if you want to test gear then bounce test it real hard i do know one person that puts a few bomber pieces in and takes some short falls on it to "get it over with" at the beginning of the season to solidify his head game but i doubt that is the norm.
IT's not really practicing a lead fall in the TR backup deal, it's testing your placements. YOu COULD practice falling with a TR backup, but it takes a third person, it will be a more complicated mess of rope, and in certain scenarios the top rope will hinder the falling practice and might even be dangerous. You back up your pro with other pro to practice falling, and you work on meeting the wall in the best way possible.
You don't really want to test placements and falling skill at the same time until you really know what you are doing.
You are right, falling practice is not the norm, just as sit harnesses were once not the norm, and sticky rubber was once not the norm, and dynamic climbing rope was once not the norm, and dynos were unheard of and certainly not the norm, but things change. Thank god lycra tights are no longer the norm!
Yes you can practice falls on A bolt, but nobody that I know that takes it seriously wants to trust their (or your) life to one bit of pro, even if it is a bolt. The standard for falling practice is, two bolts. For gear it depends. I'm basing that on the methods Arno uses.
I'd strongly recommend you contact Arno about his classes and clinics and go from there on the falling thing.
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dirtineye
Jan 4, 2005, 8:47 PM
Post #106 of 115
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In reply to: Dirt, I thought someone might catch that nuance but felt I was getting too wordy to explain. However, I was referring to parctice falls with regard to trusting gear. That IMHO is done in "Ground School" - GO, 2004. I agree that the concept of knowing how to fall is important. But, it's really a part of the grander concept of having a plan and exercising sound judgement. Let's face it, there are some falls for which there is no preparation (i.e. ground/ledge falls, low angle slab falls [think whitehorse slabs]). I'm sort of being a hard a$$ now, but your point is well taken.
Haha, you and that crazy cracklover are OK for damned Yankees!
Yes, to your grander concept. Ground or ledge falls, well, hitting a ledge from 40 feet, you might be right, but I still want to hit with my feet and not my head. Low angle slab, hehe, I've done some, I think there is a way if you don't go too far again. I'll grant that tumbling or dancing down a slab is a real trick though.
I still think that as long as you are attached to the rope, and you don't meet a ledge or the ground or some other immovable object with your head or torso, you have a fighting chance, as long as you keep your wits about you.
People that hit a ledge form 6 feet (landing with their feet especially) and get hurt (and I know someone will respond to this), even in a surprize fall more than likely could have avoided serious injury with some falling practice, especially if the rope takes even part of the impact.
I'm not saying you can live through every fall, or escape injury every time, I'm saying that your chances are better if you are actively working to do all you can to avoid those things if you should fall, and falling practice helps in that regard.
But one MUST do the falling practice safely.
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jakedatc
Jan 4, 2005, 8:52 PM
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so you take a new leader to practice falling on their gear without a TR backup? brilliant...
i took my first lead fall on a single bolt.. was not expecting it.. had no way of "preparing myself" for it.. i just fell.. good belayer kept me from hitting anything
EDIT: not to say you should practice like this but if it happens then what are you gunna do... practice i agree.. go up 3-4 bolts and fall if you want
i don't trad lead things that i expect to fall on.. which is why i dont see the need to practice falling... i fall enough sport climbing
my gear is usually pretty good.. im still learning how to make my cam placements better mostly (which i ask when my partner comes up each pitch.. how was it ? and if something isnt quite right or could be better then he points it out to me) i don't see the point in falling on gear to make sure it's good..
anyway i'm done.. people learn different ways.. your way is not my way
jake
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healyje
Jan 4, 2005, 9:01 PM
Post #108 of 115
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In reply to: it is falling on gear to see if you can place it worth a damn and doing so safely.
I think this is the heart of the disagreement. We're talking about two entirely different things here: 1) There is falling on gear to develop trust in good pro; and 2) falling on gear to test placements that may or may not be good.
You should be doing #1 if you can actually place pro competently but you simply haven't gotten to the point of trusting it - and as a result you don't push your limits (i.e. trad lead way below your sport leads). Only do this test if you can place pro compentently and then, by all means, fly away and get used to falling on your pro. Do this off the deck, on a slightly overhanging section of a route and do it above a bunch of solid pieces - double up the last and next to last pieces if you feel the need. Again - this is practice for learning to trust pro that is placed competently. No top rope is necessary and is totally counter productive to the whole point of the excercise.
#2 is another beast all together - falling on pro that may or may not be good to test placements. First off, I think this is a bad idea, top rope or not, and unnecessary except possibly in the circumstance where you can't find an experienced lead climber to second, and to second you. If you absolutely can't find and experienced traddy to take you under their wing and you are dead set on teaching yourself (which is a way less than desirable situation); and, after reading everything you can lay your hands on and have practiced placing and testing gear on the ground with an aider - well then testing placements with a TR would be a viable option. BUT, if you are going to do this then really isolate exactly what pro you are having doubts about / trouble with and why. Is it the rock? Is it flared placements? Is it small wired stoppers? Know what specific answers you are after, get them, and move on. Don't make a habit of this.
Can you learn to lead on your own? Yes. Is it a good idea? No. That said, and as Dingus pointed out, that's how a lot of us had to learn. In my case about five of us learned together the hard way sharing every misstep with each other.
Again, using TR in commercial settings - classes of any type - is simply SOP for risk management and to be expected - it still isn't desirable. Also be aware, you can learn about leading in a class - but, in the larger scheme of things you won't learn to lead in one - that take time and yardage on the sharp end of a rope out on the rock seconding and leading routes (and don't in anyway underestimate the value of seconding).
[Note: For those of you that want to learn to trad lead, RC.com has plenty of old trad guys in every state with rock - if you don't know any traddies then post for a partner to teach trad or look up who's in your state and ask them.]
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jt512
Jan 4, 2005, 9:40 PM
Post #109 of 115
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In reply to: i don't trad lead things that i expect to fall on.. which is why i dont see the need to practice falling... i fall enough sport climbing my gear is usually pretty good.. im still learning how to make my cam placements better mostly (which i ask when my partner comes up each pitch.. how was it ?
Since you don't know how to place gear yet, then it goes without saying that you shouldn't be taking practice falls on your gear. In fact, it goes without saying that you shouldn't be leading trad yet.
-Jay
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dirtineye
Jan 4, 2005, 9:44 PM
Post #110 of 115
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In reply to: so you take a new leader to practice falling on their gear without a TR backup? brilliant... i took my first lead fall on a single bolt.. was not expecting it.. had no way of "preparing myself" for it.. i just fell.. good belayer kept me from hitting anything EDIT: not to say you should practice like this but if it happens then what are you gunna do... practice i agree.. go up 3-4 bolts and fall if you want i don't trad lead things that i expect to fall on.. which is why i dont see the need to practice falling... i fall enough sport climbing my gear is usually pretty good.. im still learning how to make my cam placements better mostly (which i ask when my partner comes up each pitch.. how was it ? and if something isnt quite right or could be better then he points it out to me) i don't see the point in falling on gear to make sure it's good.. anyway i'm done.. people learn different ways.. your way is not my way jake
DOn't know if you were talking to me in your first sentence, but I don't take new leaders out to practice falling on their gear at all. I think it should be clear from what I wrote to your post specifically that in some instances a TR backup could actually make falling more dangerous.
As for your get three or four bolts up and practice that way, well, if anything goes wrong, you get a much longer fall than you were planning for, and this is something you can prevent by backing up from above with a LONG runner down to the falling bolt. For example, you want to practice falling, you are working up to a 20 foot fall, something goes wrong and you get a 40 footer. This could be a ground fall on some climbs even if you are 4 bolts up.
Again the two bolts, with the falling bolt backed up from above, is how it is done in Arno's clinics. You don't have to follow that method, but it is a good one and a safe one.
It should also ba clear that falling practice on gear is a different thing from testing a placement by falling with a TR backup. ANd it is wrong to assume that just because a palcment holds one fall that it will hold another one. IT's not only wrong in terms of logic, I've seen a placement hold three falls and fail on the forth-- which is one reason I always say check your gear after a fall.
Finally the idea that someone can look at your placements and be 100% certain that they would have held a fall is just wrong. The only way you will ever truly know if your placement can hold a fall is if it DOES hold a fall, and that does not absolutely guaranttee that it will hold a second one.
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jakedatc
Jan 4, 2005, 10:04 PM
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sorry dirt just discount whatever i said.. i'm not trying to get into a debate
J i've followed a bunch of trad and pick my leads out pretty sparingly to those that have really good gear and are welll wellllll within my range (most of them ahve been below my warmup grade)
my gear is a work in progress..(and i'm probably harder on myself than i should be.. im just being conservative) as i said the only way i really learn what works is by understanding the way pieces should work and then trying it myself and having it critiqued by a solid leader. I believe in my climbing ability at those grades to be able to downclimb back to the bottom if necessary. which is also to say that i believe that i can climb past placements opportunities that are not ideal (rock or stance) to better ones or spend alot of time at a decent stance to make sure i get the right piece in
i think i'm doing ok.. and i'm the first one to pass up leads if i'm not confident in the route
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jt512
Jan 4, 2005, 10:22 PM
Post #112 of 115
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In reply to: sorry dirt just discount whatever i said.. i'm not trying to get into a debate J i've followed a bunch of trad and pick my leads out pretty sparingly to those that have really good gear and are welll wellllll within my range (most of them ahve been below my warmup grade) my gear is a work in progress..(and i'm probably harder on myself than i should be.. im just being conservative) as i said the only way i really learn what works is by understanding the way pieces should work and then trying it myself and having it critiqued by a solid leader. I believe in my climbing ability at those grades to be able to downclimb back to the bottom if necessary. which is also to say that i believe that i can climb past placements opportunities that are not ideal (rock or stance) to better ones or spend alot of time at a decent stance to make sure i get the right piece in i think i'm doing ok..
Now that you've explained it more fully, I'm inclined to agree.
-Jay
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dirtineye
Jan 4, 2005, 11:33 PM
Post #113 of 115
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In reply to: sorry dirt just discount whatever i said.. i'm not trying to get into a debate J i've followed a bunch of trad and pick my leads out pretty sparingly to those that have really good gear and are welll wellllll within my range (most of them ahve been below my warmup grade) my gear is a work in progress..(and i'm probably harder on myself than i should be.. im just being conservative) as i said the only way i really learn what works is by understanding the way pieces should work and then trying it myself and having it critiqued by a solid leader. I believe in my climbing ability at those grades to be able to downclimb back to the bottom if necessary. which is also to say that i believe that i can climb past placements opportunities that are not ideal (rock or stance) to better ones or spend alot of time at a decent stance to make sure i get the right piece in i think i'm doing ok.. and i'm the first one to pass up leads if i'm not confident in the route
This kind of debate is useful, it's not a problem.
Conservative is better than getting in over your head and paying a price in blood, absolutely.
I'll quote my favorite partner, who likes to say, "Never pass up a bomber placment, you might not get another.". He's got FAs all over the highland/cashiers area so I guess that's why he said that.
I think you are wise to pick climbs that protect well, and then try to protect them well.
I'll add my pet thought on beginner trad climbs and route selection, and that is that the climb should be protectable easily and often, hard to fall off of (or easy to hold on to, ie, juggy), and nearly vertical (not overhanging, but not to low angle either), with no serious ledges or other features to hit should you fall.
Falling on what most people consider a beginner route will get you hurt most of the time, because they are so ledgy or low angle that if you fall you are bound to hit something.
There is an art to picking a good beginner route, and that art takes into account both the possibility of a fall, and the fall consequences.
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healyje
Jan 5, 2005, 2:01 AM
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In reply to: ANd it is wrong to assume that just because a palcment holds one fall that it will hold another one. IT's not only wrong in terms of logic, I've seen a placement hold three falls and fail on the forth-- which is one reason I always say check your gear after a fall.
This is especially worth noting for beginning trad leaders - be aware of the consequences of not rechecking your placements after a significant fall - this isn't like falling on bolts. This was pretty graphically illustrated by BillCoe_ in a recent post:
In reply to: I did see a couple of Canadians at Smith once, leader had 5 pieces in, fell twice and the then top piece held: both times. Dude climbs up, he slots 2 more nuts, spaced 6 feet apart. Now he has 7 nuts in total, he's up 60-70 feet. He falls. The top 3 (which included the 1 nut with had held the falls before) all rip and he dies, right in front of his 4-5 friends waiting to follow... |
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paige
Jan 5, 2005, 2:16 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: i don't know what you're talking about anyway so i offer no opinion only speak when your spoken to and dont write worthless posts like this!! ....im in a bit of a hostile mood tonight...
I need to quote this because it is so amazing,
otherwise, mock leading never really helped me. I just sport lead something I had done on TR before for my 1st time. Now the challenge is leading new stuff at the hardest I can climb, as well as pushing myself to higher grades on lead.
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