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epic_ed
Jan 5, 2005, 11:05 PM
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One of the hardest things I've had to learn as an aid climber is the benefit and necessity of getting as high as possible in my aid ladders on each and every placement. Intellectually, I know that doing so makes the route go faster, lets me places fewer pieces per pitch, and in some cases allows me to by-pass a marginal placement for something more bomber. Maybe some of you can relate, but I find that convincing myself to get in that top rung is a mental battle. I'm terrified of loosing my balance and falling over backward, shock loading my daisey, ripping the piece, breaking my daisey, or both, and going for a bit of a ride. Now, I'll top step when needed and have done so frequently, but I'm still not comfortable making a habit out of it. A few months ago I had a conversation with "dangle" (Piton Ron, himself) and he had some valuable input about how he top steps and explained how to do it with less effort. It's not an easy technique to learn and it is difficult to just explain without having some sort of visual aid. Fortunately, Ron just recently completed a video about clean aid climbing and one of the highlights is a segement where he demonstrates how to top step the "Olevsky" way. He also explains why it can be a critical tool to help keep the hammer in the holster and preserve the routes as much as possible for future generations of climbers. I've had a chance to see the video, and this most definitely is a plug. The info and insight Ron and other veteran climbers dispense about climbing as clean as possible is valuable material. If I had seen a video like this before my first trips up to Zion, there's a good chance I would have done a lot less damage during my "learning curve." For that reason alone, it's worth a watch. This post is to serve as a Q&A type of thread where you can ask Ron about...well, just about anything. Questions about how in the hell he placed those angles so far apart on all the Zion trade routes? Want to know his perspective on how to maintain the viability of Zion trade routes for years to come? Got a question about the new video? Post up here. We hope to be reviewing the video soon as part of our gear guide, and will have detailed input there about it. For now, please use this thread to exchange ideas with Ron and others about how to best approach and plan for wall climbing in places like Zion, in the desert towers, and elsewhere. Ed
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lambone
Jan 5, 2005, 11:14 PM
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sorry, don't have much to ask Ron, but i'll make my own comment if that's ok. If it is vertical or more than, I think Top Stepping is over-rated, and kind of a waste of time and energy. You allways have to strain to get in position and fiddle with fifi's/daisies/ect. Sometimes it takes a few tries to get there...just doesn't seem worth it unless you have no other option. I think the 2nd step is good enough usually. sometimes I get lazy and find myself in the thrid, ussually when I'm not in much of a rush...and when i'm soloing...without a partner to bitch at me. Often I'd rather just "cam jug" up easy placements making short, but fast moves rather then spend the time and energy it takes to get high up in the top steps. In order to motivate into the top steps I am ussualy either at the last resort stage, or in a big rush and not worried about the extra energy spent to do it quickly. I think that is the key ed. To get over the mental barrier of high stepping you need to feel the sense of urgency to finish the damn pitch as soon as possible. That's what it takes for me. Try doing a wall in a day and you'll get some good practice. It's allways kind of exiting whe its along reach to the next move and top stepping is the only option. Just not something i look forward to on every move. Then again, I am no fast climber by any means, i'd like to hear ammon chime in on this one. the video sounds cool though, where can you get it?
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dangle
Jan 7, 2005, 4:27 PM
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A few points; The standard technique for topstepping on steep rock is to oppose forces, pulling up on the anchor with a daisy or other attachment while pushing down on the step. I have found this technique to be overly strenuous. My technique uses novel footwork to create leverage to hold one's upper body into the wall without attaching to the anchor. Ed is right. This is very difficult to verbally describe. I considered writing an article with diagrams, but then Jeff Lowe approached me about doing a video. While I would like to see the video do well to benefit Jeff who now has a serious disability it really is about the best way to grasp this technique. (There are plenty of other benefits to the production as well. As far as I know this is the first climbing video with an alternate commentary track and I especially like Charlie Fowler's and Jim Donini's humorous additions.) Why bother adding this technique to your repertoire? 1) Lengthening one's reach can be critical on some moves that DON'T have intermediate placements. 2) It enhances one's ability to bypass poor placements. 3) It might even permit one to reach a clean placement rather than using the hammer. 4) Because it is NOT strenuous or difficult it allows you to place less gear and so minimizes impact WITHOUT sketching you out, and conserving gear can enhance your potential on the rest of the pitch. 5) If you are on a route put up by a tall person (or someone using this technique) it might be mandatory. 6) Because this mitigates the "teetering over backwards" feeling it allows one to feel more comfortable which can make a critical difference in one's staying psyched up. If it were up to me I would only teach this technique to short people. If tall people use it putting up routes then there is a possibility that shorter people could have great difficulty on them (so what else is new). The people who HAVE learned this technique universally marvel at why they hadn't picked up this skill from the getgo. Good luck to you all, let me know if you have questions, Ron Olevsky
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stick233
Jan 7, 2005, 4:53 PM
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Ron, thanks for taking the time to share with us. Appreciate it. Ed... what kind of a plug doesn't have a link to where we can find the video?? If you were my PR guy I'd have to go Donald Trump on you..."you're fired" Just kidding buddy. Thanks for bringing this up. I can only watch the Video Guide to Aid Climbing so much. Rob
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flamer
Jan 7, 2005, 4:55 PM
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In reply to: The people who HAVE learned this technique universally marvel at why they hadn't picked up this skill from the getgo. Ron showed me this technique in early 1999(i've posted about it before, but won't describe it again). I've got to say it works very well, and allows you to top step with ease. In regards to moving quickly....sometimes topstepping is the way to go sometimes it's not, the key is to have your system's dialed and don't fiddle fuck around! josh
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kimgraves
Jan 7, 2005, 5:32 PM
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In reply to: If it is vertical or more than, I think Top Stepping is over-rated, and kind of a waste of time and energy. You allways have to strain to get in position and fiddle with fifi's/daisies/ect. Sometimes it takes a few tries to get there...just doesn't seem worth it unless you have no other option. I think the 2nd step is good enough usually. sometimes I get lazy and find myself in the thrid... I too really enjoyed Ron and Jeff Lowe’s DVD and recommend it. I’m just a beginner, but I can see a couple of important advantages in top stepping other than in increases your speed. The first is environmental – the fewer placements you make the less impact you have. This can’t be a bad thing for all of us in the long run. The second reason is that the ability to get up higher gives you more options for a placement. The other day I made a placement 8 feet above my top step. Having eight feet of rock features to choose from might mean the difference between something easy and something hard. Or something that goes clean and something that doesn’t. Standing high also allows better inspection of the next moves. For us old guys with failing eyesight, that's an advantage. Unfortunately, I'm not kidding here. :? Being comfortable standing high is just another asset you bring to the problem. Putting it another way, would you rather be a leader who is comfortable getting in and standing in the top step, or one that isn't. For me, having more tools in the toolbox - tools that I'm comfortable using - is goodness. Ron’s method of top stepping makes it easy. It’s simply a variation on the traditional triangle formed by the feet to stay in balance. You stand in one aider and then cross the other foot in front of the weighted one forming the triangle with crossed feet. I’ve not tried it yet, but it seems that the advantage is that you use the shin of your weighted foot as a lever to keep you in balance and upright. It’s brilliantly obvious that it makes you wonder why it’s not standard technique. The technique is much easier shown than described. So I recommend the tape. You can get it from Mountain Gear. Regards, Kim
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robbiehirsch
Jan 7, 2005, 5:53 PM
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What's the name of the video and where can I get it?
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dangle
Jan 7, 2005, 7:17 PM
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Kim, Thanks for the source info. I have a question for you; eight feet? Granted you are reaching overhead so your reach can be greater than your height, but if your feet are only say 10" below your anchor that would mean you are over 6'6". If that's the case and you can use this skill well then you could put up routes that few people could repeat (I sure couldn't reach quite THAT far). Ron
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lambone
Jan 7, 2005, 7:23 PM
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so crossing your feet when top-stepping is a technique that Ron invented huh? hhhmmmm...interesting... :roll: funny, I was out bouldering a few days ago and got a bit out of balance, so I swung one foot behind the other and pressed agains the rock. It helped stabilize me and make the next move SO much easier. I call my new technique "Flagging." Stay tuned for the video... :twisted: I'd like to see this magic technique in action and try to comprehend how some fancy foot work can take the strain off your upperbody when top-stepping on overhanging terrain. sounds pretty cool...maybe I don't need to lose this beer gut after all!
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holdplease2
Jan 7, 2005, 7:53 PM
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Hey Lambone - what you are talking about is flagging...it comes to everyone naturally. What Ron does is quite different. Whether or not he 'invented' it who knows, but it isn't intuitive. He calls it "t-ing off". Here it is: You have one foot in the aider, and are standing on it. Normally, to high step with one aider, or even two, you'd have to have some sort of down/in pressure on your harness from your daisy so you don't fall over backwards... Instead, Ron can get into his second steps, without a daisy, on vert or even over-vert terrain. He does this by stuffing the "free leg" in FRONT of the aidered leg, with his foot making a T in front of (or on top of) the aidered foot. This seems to both push the aidered foot out from the wall, allowing you to push yourself into the wall with it, and give you a second balance point for the second foot, without use of a second aider. Anyway, its different than anything I've seen, and may speed up climbing for me, as it can eliminate futzing with the "right length" of the daisy AND the need for a second aider for balance. In fact, ron doesn't use a daisy at all, but a chain of 3 biners, which is also unique. His aiders aren't connected to his body...one less cluster, unless you drop one. Anyway, it looks really simple and low-strain vs crushing the crap out of my kidneys every time I want to hang out in the second step. Anywho, it is way different from flagging, just for clarification. The video is pretty good. -Kate.
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lambone
Jan 7, 2005, 8:06 PM
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yeah, but...like, I do it all time, doesn't everyone? the flagging remark was just me being a smartass. new techniques are cool and all, but I'm not giving up my daisies and fifi anytime soon. I'm sure the video is good and worth the $, I'll try to borrow it someday. cheers
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glockaroo
Jan 7, 2005, 8:11 PM
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In reply to: so crossing your feet when top-stepping is a technique that Ron invented huh? hhhmmmm...interesting... :roll: Did Linus Torvalds invent Unix? No, but he advanced it and now the world has Linux. Did Sergei Bubka invent the bendable vaulting pole? No, but he advanced the sport to the then-record level of 18 meters. Did Steve Jobs invent the computer? No, but he advanced the concept into the Apple and Mac platforms. You've got a multi-page thread going about how bored you are on this forum, but now one of the better aid climbers around is contributing some good stuff and you're getting your flame on. Quit being an arrogant young-buck and try to remain civil until you've seen the technique. I've ordered the Lowe DVD and will see for myself.
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dangle
Jan 7, 2005, 8:16 PM
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lambone, Still razzing me huh? Erden accused me of falsely claiming my knot because he'd seen it in '90. Ask him what he thinks now. If it was as simple as crossing your feet then the video wouldn't be so helpful in describing it. But go ahead. You seem to think making instructional videos is easy... While my technique does work on gently overhanging rock, it might not be as easy with a beer gut. But no doubt you already knew that. I was hoping that this thread would enlighten its readers and benefit a friend with MS by plugging his product. Perhaps there are other threads with greater need of sarcasm.
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lambone
Jan 7, 2005, 9:04 PM
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In reply to: I was hoping that this thread would enlighten its readers and benefit a friend with MS by plugging his product. Perhaps there are other threads with greater need of sarcasm. it will, know doubt...keep posting, don't let me deter you. more experienced people posting to this board is exactly what it needs, which is I'm sure Ed's intention is starting this thread. you guys are right, it's not fair for me to judge a technique without even seeing it first. I guess I just have a proplem with people marketing old ideas as their own, especialy for profit. honestlly I don't know if what you are describing is the same thing I am thinking of. might not be, and if so I'll be the first to admit it. For me, crossing one foot in front of the other, locking my knees and using presure from my calves to lever my upper body into the wall in a balanced position is just naturaly comfortable. I never even thought of it as a technique really, but more of just how you stand up in aiders...seemed to require less energy. considering that you topstep on overhangs without daisies or fifi and not pulling up or out on the piece...I must be thinking of something else. but I have to be honest, trying to visualize it seems to me that it defys the laws of physics. cheers, have fun! by the way, what's this about a knot? and you are not refering to Erden Eruc are you?
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kimgraves
Jan 8, 2005, 12:03 AM
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In reply to: Kim, I have a question for you; eight feet? Granted you are reaching overhead so your reach can be greater than your height, but if your feet are only say 10" below your anchor that would mean you are over 6'6". If that's the case and you can use this skill well then you could put up routes that few people could repeat (I sure couldn't reach quite THAT far). Ron Hi Ron, I know I owe you an e-mail - it's coming. Re 8': I was in my top step with one of Tom Frost's long (12") sentinel nuts. I balanced on one foot and I reached up with the opposite hand and got a placement. I didn't actually measure it out on the rock. But when I got home I put the same nut in my hand and could reach our 8' dining room ceiling easily. So even if it wasn't 8' off the top step, it was close - and much farther than I expected I was capable of. I'm actually short (ish) 5'7-1/4" (thank you very much 8^) ) with a -1 ape index. So I was blown away that I could make that reach. Best, Kim
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lambone
Jan 8, 2005, 1:40 AM
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I'm still curious about this knot you are talking about dangle...what's it used for? is it in the video?
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no_one
Jan 9, 2005, 3:50 AM
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As my user name says I'm no_one. But lambone must be really cool and stuff! I mean, can you imagine being at a point in climbing were there's nothing you don't know! I guess I would sit behind my computer and wait for some idiot to try and claim they new some technique before me. Then I would reply in a attempt to make them feel like shit for not contacting me first to ask if I already new the move. WOW, how would it be? But for the rest of us who still have space in their heads for continued learning, check out the video. I've seen it, and tried lambones, I mean Rons trick of Ting-Off. I was blown away by the advantage knowing this technique gave me! The video has also got some great footage of a FA that Jeff Lowe and friends did in Zion. :wink:
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flamer
Jan 9, 2005, 5:56 AM
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In reply to: I'm still curious about this knot you are talking about dangle...what's it used for? is it in the video? It was published in "tech Tips" in one of the rags awhile ago....It was a finish to a figure eight, that's right isn't it Ron? And to No_one...dude I know you're someone's alter ego....and I know Lambone can come off inflammatory sometimes(hell he does it to me!)...but chill bro! It's all good, and if anyone can take it- it's Ron!! So back on track....After learning Ron's Top stepping technique several years ago I've found it works well....Ron's got plenty of other good info to share, not to mention stories to tell, So let's all get back to asking him stuff in this thread...... josh
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dangle
Jan 9, 2005, 7:33 AM
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I can even take someone claiming to be my old buddy in order to add validation to erroneous claims. Or is your assumed name the truth..... Thanks Josh, I suppose you're atoning but lambone WAS becoming very annoying. But hows this for strange I just got done endorsing something lambone said in the A5 aid fatality thread.... Questions anyone? Ron Olevsky
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lambone
Jan 9, 2005, 8:58 AM
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ok guys, sheesh...enough. I'm sure T-ing off is just the best thing since sliced bread! I come in peace... dangle, you ever use those Pika Malards for clean aiding? I bought two a while back and have pretty much carried them on every route since, but have'nt used them yet... pretty funny...I leep telling myself I should use them, then I get to the top and say "oh well, next time"...and so on. one of these days it's gonna save my ass I know it! Malards seem like a one of a kind clean aid peice, nothing much else out there like it. Any others?
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euroford
Jan 9, 2005, 3:47 PM
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http://tinypic.com/17pmb6 personally, those things look totally sketchy to me and i wouldn't even have bought them. i'd sell them on ebay!
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dangle
Jan 9, 2005, 3:48 PM
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"sliced bread" is still sarcasm but I'll grant that you do seem to be coming around so I'll take a shot. Donini has a theory that some people after a few drinks begin to reveal their true persona, maybe the same goes for a nom de plume (anonymity obviating inhibitions). Pika Malards: I think I know what you're refering to and might even have one or two given to me to evaluate. Never used them. But then I'm not the only one am I. Still I won't let ignorance prevent me from rendering an opinion (sound familiar?) All of the beak type devices stem from the crack-n-up. Back in the seventies Tom and Yvon became very enthusiastic about the potential for clean climbing. They started making nuts for thinner and thinner cracks until it became difficult to slip even a thin cable INSIDE the crack into which they were attempting a placement. Then in a moment of genius they externalized the "cable" by replacing it with a frame. Either that or they ripped off the idea by looking at a boat anchor. Anyway the prototypes were used to good effect in doing Half Dome clean, and soon enough they were on the market. That's when Bridwell got his hands on them. Now I think that Jim is one of the most important players in climbing's history and that his athleticism and innovative nature have rarely been equalled. That said I must also admit that he could have corrupted Mother Theresa. True to form he saw clean devices and figured out how to make them dirty again. As many know he sawed off one of the two "nut" extensions and ground a taper in the remaining one. He stuck a feather in his cap and called it......the birdbeak of course. They may have been as dirty as poorly used poop tube but they proved to be most effective. Soon this idea too was commercially available, and size and shape modifications were not long in the offing. In 1977 a young partner of mine had showed me something he made in his dad's garage like some Afghani gunsmith. It was a device of similar nature but greatly reduced in scale with a tiny pointed "beak" that could be punched into seams. I think he called them Tweekers, vernacular that could today be misleading. Sadly however the young craftsman, Tony Yaniro, would never really distinguish himself as an aid climber. I think he did some other stuff though... After I got my sweaty hands on some crack-n-ups I gave them a shot in Eldo and also on some local granite. Although I only put up some minor variants with them they worked absolutely brilliantly. Soon however I was out in the desert where the rocks offered great solitude. They did not however offer the greatest of integrity and I soon found out the hard way (or should I say the soft way) that tiny devices tended to concentrate forces at levels the medium was often not able to support. To put it less delicately they'd blow! Concurrently I was discovering the process of constructive scarring and its potential to render such thin cracks a little more abuser friendly. Yeah I really said it, but don't forget the historical context. Sometimes people still placed pitons in free routes. The only thing I didn't like about the little boat anchors was their similar behavior. Just as their bigger cousins were designed to catch on stuff they too would snag on everything when carried on a rack. This led to them being carried in a pocket. Well ofcourse as you've probably noted the first step to using something is remembering that you have it. If you have a monstrous camming device on your rack its hard to forget its there, but not so with a pocket toy. Nearly anything can be used as an anchor SOMEWHERE. The trick is to garner the most versatile devices so you have something to use everywhere. Assembling a rack appropriate to the route is hardly a breakthrough yet it is something that still today often leads to problems when not done effectively. In fact on the video's alternate commentary track our aspiring pop psychologist, the aforementioned Donini, describes an occasion where despite the obviously innappropriate application another climber made just that error. So there you have it, an ignoramous' evaluation of the Pika Malard. Use it if you dare, but perhaps just beforehand you might wish to honor a long held climbing tradition. Yell down to your belayer,"Watch my ass!"
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alpinestylist
Jan 9, 2005, 6:43 PM
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I've broken three mallards in action. I don't care for much of anything pika makes. Same with their beaks, seem to be like soft metal pins, one placement only, leave em fixed. I've broken at least 4 of those.
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lambone
Jan 10, 2005, 12:16 AM
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interesting, thanks Ron. Cool historical anicdotes. so what are some of your other favorite clean aid pieces? other than the obvious ones...like offset ailiens and stuff. hmmm? "constructive scaring," huh? is that another way of saying some of your Zion routes were chipped? just curious. :?
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dangle
Jan 10, 2005, 1:49 AM
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Chipped is a poor misleading term. Altered ? Yes. But the term constructive scarring implies to me the goal of curtailing it as opposed to DESTRUCTIVE scarring. But lets not mince words further. Your antagonistic intent is unmistakable. Why you would pursue this behavior I care not. Perhaps it fulfills you. But I have more useful ways to spend my time. If you wish to post further to this thread then its all yours. If that's the case then to the other people who would have made this interesting I apologize for no longer participating. Dangle!!
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atg200
Jan 10, 2005, 6:16 AM
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don't take off ron - i am enjoying your historical anecdotes more than anything else on this site these days! pika metal is indeed crap. i bent one of their cam hooks while bouncing it - never had that problem with the leepers. i really like the design of the toucans, but wish someone else made them. i've passed a couple of big blade placements hammerlessly in the desert with them. the mallards seem useless because of the metal, so the one i have now is collecting dust.
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holdplease2
Jan 10, 2005, 8:41 AM
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Pssst. Ron. There is this thing called a killfile. If you click on the "thumbs down" icon under lambone's username, you are no longer subjected to his posts or his PMs... -Kate.
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lambone
Jan 10, 2005, 5:38 PM
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jeeze dangle, storm off in a dramatic huff if you want...you think I am just trolling you, but I am totaly serious. you don't just bring up "constructively scaring" a route in a thread about clean aid climbing without expecting someone to ask you more about it. don't tell me that it is unfair for others to inqire for details. to me "constrructively scaring" is a vauge term that could mean anything from hamering your pins upwards when cleaning, to chiseling head placements or enhacing hooks....which are obviously much more questionable. I mean, you are here trying to promote a video on clean aid climbing, yet openly talking about intentionaly scaring a route. So forgive me if I am a bit confused and curious. just remember fella, you brought it up in the first place, not me.
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climb9876
Jan 11, 2005, 9:31 PM
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Dangle, It is unfortunate the anonymity of the Internet limits the humility we normally enjoy in our day-to-day encounters with fellow climbers of varying types and abilities. I have found constructive scarring mentioned in: The SuperTopo guidebook Climbing magazine Rock and Ice magazine In addition, I believe the technique is discussed to some extent in both the popular instructional wall-climbing books. A simple Google search of the phrase “constructive scarring” reveals http://www.climbing.com/techtips/aid/ttaid230/ As the number one hit. I’m sure most of us know it has absolutely nothing to do with chipping. There are always going to be users of these forums who choose to display their stupidity and ignorance rather than their intelligence and tolerance. You simply have to accept these forums as the public places they are and ignore such users, especially their juvenile attempts to slander through “innocent” questions. I thought your post was one of the better ones I’ve encountered in my few years lurking through this site. I appreciated the history and the insight, and I hope you’ll continue to share both in the future.
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dangle
Jan 11, 2005, 10:00 PM
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Mr. 9876, Well done sir! I compliment you both on skill and on spirit. Don't know what order my posts will appear in ! Helluva flood for sure !!!! My broker knew the guy killed. More waves hitting, the crest is predicted for 4-5 hours from now. Nobody understood my reason for not wanting to sandbag! Anyway I believe my theory/technique first appeared in Mountain twenty years ago along with a photo that later became R&I's first "centerfold", but the best part was them using (albeit slightly altering without my say so) my story about using a chuckawalla as pro on a FA. True story too, but I think they liked the fulmar reference most. It had a shot of Fitzroy on the cover, and if I recall was #95.
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lambone
Jan 11, 2005, 10:00 PM
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In reply to: Dangle, It is unfortunate the anonymity of the Internet limits the humility we normally enjoy in our day-to-day encounters with fellow climbers of varying types and abilities. Matt Lambert, Ashland Oregon. Click on my profile for more description. Funny, I wasn't able to find any information on you??? :? peace dangle wrote:
In reply to: Anyway I believe my theory/technique first appeared in Mountain twenty years ago along with a photo that later became R&I's first "centerfold" which theory/technique are you talking about now? i'm confused. what the heck is a "chuckawalla"???? honest question.
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dangle
Jan 11, 2005, 10:25 PM
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Constructive Scarring. Although a friend of mine just offered a definition for constructive scaring. Chuckawalla is the common name for the second largest lizard indigenous to this area. Sauromalus Obesus is so named for its defensive behavior. When threatened it crawls into a crack and inflates itself.... I had a pet one for years. Mike Mortimer, that lovable inebriated Canuck named him Chuck Wallace quite by accident and it sort of stuck. Charlie would ride on my shoulder for hours and eat out of my hand. Lyn Hill really dug him too. The last time I took him to OR she held him through a film presentation. They are thermodermic (darken when its cooler) and mostly herbivorous. Highly social they are thought to mate for life. Even the sub-alpha males are very polite.
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epic_ed
Jan 11, 2005, 10:38 PM
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Matt, you have some legit questions about acceptability of "constructive scaring." Nothing wrong with that. Where do we draw the line? When does it become "dumbing-down" the difficulty, rather than preserving the route for future ascents? Your tone could use some work. Do you realize the opportunity for discussion we have going on in this forum right now? Instead of a bunch of weekend warriors who may or may not have a few walls under their belts discussing the finer points of various navel lint removal techniques, we have two of the most prolific FA-ist in modern aid climbing history looking for a reason to contribute to legitimate discussions about climbing on our humble lil forum. I'm not asking for ass-kissing or knob-slobbing from anyone, but how about trying to be a little more welcoming to some of these guys who clearly have quite a bit to offer? Ron, I hope to see more posts from you and Charlie in the near future. Thanks for opening up the discussion. Ed
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dangle
Jan 12, 2005, 3:05 PM
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Alas Charlie has passed on. Too bad the system went down and lost my posts earlier this week. Much has been going on here. In any case I wish to straighten out one assertion: I have never ever scared a climb. mummble, mummble (I only wish the reverse were true.)
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glockaroo
Jan 12, 2005, 4:20 PM
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In reply to: Matt Lambert, Ashland Oregon. Click on my profile for more description. Funny, I wasn't able to find any information on you??? :? Fine then, maybe you're not hiding behind anonymity at all and are just genuinely abrasive and poor-mannered. To take an accusatory tone about constructive scarring w/ a very well known desert aid climber is ridiculous. It's like walking up to Charlton Heston and being absolutely aghast that he supports private gun ownership. Who knew?! Middendorf recommended constructive scarring over 15 years ago in the A5 Big Wall Tech Manual. Steve Grossman has been doing the same for a long time IIRC. Have you looked up these guys to lecture them on their dangerous attitudes? You're just looking for an online fight. Quit being an arrogant young-buck.
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dangle
Jan 12, 2005, 6:40 PM
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To those urging me to killfile; I think my way is a bit more honest but I am very close. If there are no immediate questions about the video content or production perhaps there are some historical questions.
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lambone
Jan 12, 2005, 7:50 PM
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I am not trying to pick an online fight...jeeze guys relax a little. (trust me on this one, if I wanted an online fight I'd skip the subtle left hand jabs and go straight for the uppercut) I appologize for not knowing who Ron Olvesky is or that I should bow in reverance. The Sandstone desert is obviously not my territory. in my mind a climber is a climber is a climber. personaly I have much more respect for a guy like Ammon who has done a lot of cool shit and does not put himself up on a pedestal in front of us, nor take himself so freakin seriously. but whatever, to each his own. Ask Ammon why he no longer visits this site and removed all his cool photos.... I also apoligize for not knowing the definition of "constructive scaring." The first thought that came to mind was chiseled heads and enhanced hooks. Now I suppose it just means cleaning a pin properly. My bad. carry on, have fun oh...and Ron, the inflating lizard for pro is one of the funniest things I have ever heard...right on man! SKETCHY! this thread has some intersting posts on clean aiding in Zion http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?m=54738&f=0&b=0
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lambone
Jan 12, 2005, 9:08 PM
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didn't say he was...my point was that he doesn't get his panties in a bunch if you flip him shit. resume shmesume...if I wanted to talk corporate lingo I could be working on the stuff pilling up on my desk...
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brianinslc
Jan 12, 2005, 9:21 PM
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In reply to: I also apoligize for not knowing the definition of "constructive scaring." The first thought that came to mind was chiseled heads and enhanced hooks. Now I suppose it just means cleaning a pin properly. My bad. Hmmm. I would offer that there's a difference between "constructive scarring" and "constructive cleaning". HAFWAN fits in here too, somewhere... There's a difference in style, methinks. One style, constructively scars on the front end, ie, on point (and/or whilst "working" or "putting in" the route). The other, mostly relegated to the second, who cleans the pitch so as to make the resultant scar more useable for a potential clean ascent. Some folks like thin aid, miles of beak cracks, and they even try to keep beta for said routes from falling into the hands of folks who can't respect that style of ascent (ie, Lost Angel, Dark Side of the Moon, etc). Others clean the route from the get go, then advertise as clean (or something like that). These folks also try to keep beta from guidebook authors (sorry, couldn't resist...). Not passing judgement, either way. Have to say I'm psyched to see the video. I'm hopin' it'll make a showing here in a couple of weeks in SLC during OR... Anyhoo...there's probably a debate in here somewhere... I have a half crack-n-up JB special used on the FA of Desert Shield in Zion...whew, not at my body weight... Also, speakin' of style points, kudos to rockprodigy for his send on his new variation of the Lowe Route on Angels Landing (see Climbing's hotflashes on their website)! -Brian in SLC
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dangle
Jan 13, 2005, 2:13 AM
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Back again huh? The article in Mountain addresses both optimum placement AND removal. The video is already in stores. I think we can have an interesting discussion without puerile jabs or rumormongering. What say we give it a shot.
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bandycoot
Jan 13, 2005, 3:01 AM
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In reply to: I appologize for not knowing who Ron Olvesky is or that I should bow in reverance. The Sandstone desert is obviously not my territory. in my mind a climber is a climber is a climber. personaly I have much more respect for a guy like Ammon who has done a lot of cool shit and does not put himself up on a pedestal in front of us, nor take himself so freakin seriously. but whatever, to each his own. Ask Ammon why he no longer visits this site and removed all his cool photos.... Ron put up some of those routes that Ammon likes to speed climb if I remember correctly. Also, he isn't putting himself up on a pedelstal or taking himself too seriously. Take some criticism yourself, you're being an asshole. Ron, I look forward to buying your video before I get on any sandstone walls.
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bandycoot
Jan 13, 2005, 3:04 AM
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I've heard that putting a piton in with epoxy is often used in soft sandstone. Is this really better than a bolt since the epoxy makes it more permenant and harder to replace?
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dangle
Jan 13, 2005, 3:59 AM
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Sounds like you're asking about drilled angles (guess people don't make the connection with my "name"). DAs exploit the tendency of soft rock holes to flare while being drilled. Their placement is somewhat complex so I hesitate to get into it (could write a short BOOK about it). The glue is not so much for strength or security, rather it fills the interior to keep out water which, aside from maybe rusting or loosening the pin, would combine with CO2 to form a mild carbolic acid which would begin to make a solution pocket around the pin. Why would you replace a bolt if its still good? OK everybody lets stop the criticism and see if people are going to be a little more civil. No need to polarize the participants if they've got the message and can disagree politely. But thank you all for the support. How about some clean aid topics.
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flamer
Jan 13, 2005, 5:17 AM
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Here's a couple of observation's and comments that i hope will spur some Conversation. In the last couple of years there has been alot of anchor/bolt replacement going on in Zion. I think this is a good thing, provided the exsisting anchors are bad. On 2 seperate route's i've seen the replacement bolts (both were 1/2"X 4" Rawls) either pulled completly out or starting to come out. On Spaceshot last March i found one dangling from the chain that connected it to another bolt(on the traverse) and on moonlight about 3 years ago I found a bolt that had been replaced several months previous already coming out of the rock. At that time the bolts used were thought to be the "best" in sandstone(which is obviously just an opinion), and yet they were pulling alarmingly fast. So my question is this...what do you(and that's anybody with an opinion) think is best? Is the Drilled angle the answer? And Ron...what's up with the "bolt ladder" on top of spaceshot? Some of that stuff is turning into time-bomb central...do you think some of the really shitty stuff should be replaced? It's climbable now... josh
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dangle
Jan 13, 2005, 5:43 AM
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By traverse I assume you mean on the second aid pitch. Although only 15-20 meters out, many gumbies stop and belay there so I'm not surprised to hear that there's a bogus bolt there now. Its been something like 8 years since my last time up SS, so I can't speak for the final ladder. It was OK when I did it. When it comes to the softer sandstones I think DAs are the way to go, but as I've said before there is no cookbook formula for placing them. Not only do they require patience to place, but while I'm drilling I'm also "feeling" the softness of the particular spot and adjusting the bit sequence to accomodate for it. Boner might accuse me of chest beating but this practice takes substantial skill and experience. I can definitely recommend that neophytes should NOT attempt to place DAs on lead, but then what. If they use standard bolts then you have problems too. I really have to wonder how long sandstone routes will last. Jeff and I agree that sandstone will act as the canary in the coal mine for what will happen on harder rock.
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bandycoot
Jan 13, 2005, 6:37 AM
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A drilled angle can't last forever, is there a "clean" way to replace them? That is why I originally asked. It sounds like there is no great solution to the problem... Josh
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dangle
Jan 13, 2005, 7:01 AM
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If it doesn't "last" because it loosens, then the same hole can be used to accomodate a slightly larger piton. But if its placed properly with glue then it probably won't loosen. I'm not sure why else it wouldn't last. Eye broken from a fall?? Not very likely. Pitons are pretty strong. There's a chance the rock would fail before the pin. I'm having a hard time envisioning its failure to last. Can you help me out here? I suppose that even if glued the whole mess, glue and pin, could loosen but then the above still applies.
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bandycoot
Jan 13, 2005, 7:54 AM
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I was thinking really long term where the eye would eventually fail. My experience with soft sandstone is extremely limited. I didn't realize you could just put another piton in the same hole after it loosened. I thought they were more permenant than that with glue/epoxy. Thanks for the information.
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brianinslc
Jan 13, 2005, 4:12 PM
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In reply to: Eye broken from a fall?? Not very likely. Pitons are pretty strong. There's a chance the rock would fail before the pin. I'm having a hard time envisioning its failure to last. Can you help me out here? I suppose that even if glued the whole mess, glue and pin, could loosen but then the above still applies. I saw a busted angle a kid broke year before last on Spaceshot. Body weight. Snapped right on the shaft, past the eye. Was one of those SMC angles with the gold anodize-esque finish. Geez, I ledged off a pair on Spaceshot...(below Earth Orbit). I got a pretty good gander at it. Looked like that finish was compromised, probably when the pin was placed, and corrosion slowly ate a bit of the top of the nose creating a weak spot and maybe a stress riser. Anyhoo, the kid said he just clipped into it, sat on it, and it busted. Was on the last pitch (above Earth Orbit). So...my thought is that fixed angles probably have a limited life compared to, say, stainless steel half inch bolts. I'd consider 20+ year old fixed angles suspect (kind of "duh" but...). I still get amazed at the apparent robustness of some of the old star dryvin' stuff I've rapped off in Zion...some of that stuff if going on 30 years plus and still "seems" solid. Amazing. Ron, you coming up for winter OR? Say howdy. Brian in SLC
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kimgraves
Jan 13, 2005, 5:06 PM
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Hi Ron, I have a question: assuming the problem of the flaring hole can be solved, would a ½” stainless steel bolt be a better long-term solution than the drilled angle? Wouldn’t the bolt last longer and need less maintenance and therefore be safer? Or are there problems with bolts other than the problem of placing them? Best, Kim
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dangle
Jan 13, 2005, 5:08 PM
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You got me. I should have specified BD pins. SMCs are notorious for failures. I've had several break on me over the years. I don't use them for DAs any more. Is there something you wanted to pm me? I detect something different in the air (?).
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billcoe_
Jan 13, 2005, 5:29 PM
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In reply to: "sliced bread" is still sarcasm but I'll grant that you do seem to be coming around so I'll take a shot. Donini has a theory that some people after a few drinks begin to reveal their true persona, maybe the same goes for a nom de plume (anonymity obviating inhibitions). Pika Malards: I think I know what you're refering to and might even have one or two given to me to evaluate. Never used them. But then I'm not the only one am I. Still I won't let ignorance prevent me from rendering an opinion (sound familiar?) All of the beak type devices stem from the crack-n-up. Back in the seventies Tom and Yvon became very enthusiastic about the potential for clean climbing. They started making nuts for thinner and thinner cracks until it became difficult to slip even a thin cable INSIDE the crack into which they were attempting a placement. Then in a moment of genius they externalized the "cable" by replacing it with a frame. Either that or they ripped off the idea by looking at a boat anchor. Anyway the prototypes were used to good effect in doing Half Dome clean, and soon enough they were on the market. That's when Bridwell got his hands on them. Now I think that Jim is one of the most important players in climbing's history and that his athleticism and innovative nature have rarely been equalled. That said I must also admit that he could have corrupted Mother Theresa. True to form he saw clean devices and figured out how to make them dirty again. As many know he sawed off one of the two "nut" extensions and ground a taper in the remaining one. He stuck a feather in his cap and called it......the birdbeak of course. They may have been as dirty as poorly used poop tube but they proved to be most effective. Soon this idea too was commercially available, and size and shape modifications were not long in the offing. In 1977 a young partner of mine had showed me something he made in his dad's garage like some Afghani gunsmith. It was a device of similar nature but greatly reduced in scale with a tiny pointed "beak" that could be punched into seams. I think he called them Tweekers, vernacular that could today be misleading. Sadly however the young craftsman, Tony Yaniro, would never really distinguish himself as an aid climber. I think he did some other stuff though... After I got my sweaty hands on some crack-n-ups I gave them a shot in Eldo and also on some local granite. Although I only put up some minor variants with them they worked absolutely brilliantly. Soon however I was out in the desert where the rocks offered great solitude. They did not however offer the greatest of integrity and I soon found out the hard way (or should I say the soft way) that tiny devices tended to concentrate forces at levels the medium was often not able to support. To put it less delicately they'd blow! Concurrently I was discovering the process of constructive scarring and its potential to render such thin cracks a little more abuser friendly. Yeah I really said it, but don't forget the historical context. Sometimes people still placed pitons in free routes. The only thing I didn't like about the little boat anchors was their similar behavior. Just as their bigger cousins were designed to catch on stuff they too would snag on everything when carried on a rack. This led to them being carried in a pocket. Well ofcourse as you've probably noted the first step to using something is remembering that you have it. If you have a monstrous camming device on your rack its hard to forget its there, but not so with a pocket toy. Nearly anything can be used as an anchor SOMEWHERE. The trick is to garner the most versatile devices so you have something to use everywhere. Assembling a rack appropriate to the route is hardly a breakthrough yet it is something that still today often leads to problems when not done effectively. In fact on the video's alternate commentary track our aspiring pop psychologist, the aforementioned Donini, describes an occasion where despite the obviously innappropriate application another climber made just that error. So there you have it, an ignoramous' evaluation of the Pika Malard. Use it if you dare, but perhaps just beforehand you might wish to honor a long held climbing tradition. Yell down to your belayer,"Watch my ass!" Ron: your writing is as high of a standard as your climbing. Up there for sure. About 1/2 of this thread is damn interesting and the other 1/4 is damn annoying. The other 1/4 is stuff like I'm doing now: it's neither. The whole thread is still worth reading, but it could be done in several topics, and your post could be put in as a stand alone article so it can still be read long after we all turn to dust. Ron - I'd like to point out that it doesn't get better than your post above, and also thank you both for sharing your years of experience and interesting observations. That's some real good writing. Lambone probably figures that if you're gonna start collecting all this money from your rockclimbing.com postings, that you should have to take some abuse to collect that $. And, I'm sure Lambone will use the factual info he is learning to his advantage, and send a check to you in graditude as well. I believe that tech tips which get published pays you $100. So keep an eye on your mailbox for Matts check. That you would do a video to help an old friend is very noble, I didn't even know Jeff Lowe had MS. I'd like to thank Ed for pointing out how valuable the info on the video is. Regards to all: Bill
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dangle
Jan 13, 2005, 5:38 PM
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Bill, you are too kind. Nice to hear from you again. I think we can stop lambasting the bone if he plays nice. How about someone posting questions about Zion history? I'll answer when I get back from town.
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epic_ed
Jan 13, 2005, 7:54 PM
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Actually, I have several Zion history questions to ask but don't have time for since I'm at work. I'll start a new thread on that subject and we can go from there. Ed
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lambone
Jan 13, 2005, 10:33 PM
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In reply to: Boner might accuse me of chest beating but this practice takes substantial skill and experience. no, no accusations...and I belive it does. thanks for contributing. to everyone I pissed off in this thread...I'm sorry...lets all get over it.
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russman
Jan 18, 2005, 2:31 PM
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In reply to: Ron, dangle has been having problems tryign to post this for abour 4 days. He has asked me to post this for him. Please direct all questions to him, as I really don't know what is goign on in this thread I chose to live in the north end of the Hurricane Valley because the location is central to three outstanding climbing areas, Zion Canyon, Snow Canyon, and the Kolob Canyons. This arrangement is fine tuned to the point where I'm closest to the best, farthest from the one in third. I know why I'm here. The rocks are too heavy to move and they are guarded by vicious rangers who would frown on such efforts to boot. Coincidentally the town of La Verkin is now becoming recognized as the xenophobia capitol of north america with its ban on the display of the UN flag. For decades I flew under the radar of their polyglot bigotry which included a strong element of anti-semitism. I neither denied my jewish ancestry nor flaunted it. It was not an issue. I climbed and a few silly uneducated people developed a belief system to justify their lack of success. There was little to no contact. This blissful ignorance ended when I bought a larger home. It was only two miles from my old place,...........but worlds apart. My new neighbor was also a member of the climbing community, a feature I was foolish enough to believe could only be positive. Things began to happen. It started with litter and rudeness. It progressed to petty theft and vandalisms. After talking to me and finding me reasonable another neighbor's kid gave me some information. I followed it up and found that a petition had been circulated around the neighborhood with specious claims and outright fabrications meant to create hostility towards me. So I went to my climber neighbor and asked him if he knew about it. He feigned ignorance but eventually I found through an unimpeachable source that most of these assertions could be traced back to him and his family. Not soon after he was advised of my knowledge and the climate changed. His kids created an insulting sign addressed to me and sporting two swastikas. A sheriff's deputy promptly made them remove it. There were more neighborhood problems before the climber divorced his wife and moved to Springdale. Eventually his kids and ex moved away but not without throwing rocks over the wall and yelling f___ing jew. Thats when the really expensive vandalism began. Now lambone might accuse me of chest beating and in all candor I AM proud of it, but the following is a pivotal element. Perhaps a hundred people have put up routes in Zion but to my knowledge its the only major area where most of the climbers go to repeat the routes of one person. Myself. So when this climber opened an equipment store I was appalled with the prospect of this person making a majority of his income off of the popularity of my routes. I had a little talk with an old campmate who had become the head of Black Diamond. Peter Metcalf was in the middle of a controversial piece of capitalistic guerrilla theater having threatened to relocate Salt Lake City's most profitable event, Outdoor Retailer, because of the host state's admittedly poor environmental policies. We both had ethical issues and being sympathetic I told him of my negative impressions of Leavitt and his immediate family and advised him not to trust him and to move the show. (Of course I wanted him to move it to Vegas closer to me.) In turn he assured me that Black Diamond would not retain as a dealer anyone who would claim the right to put swastikas outside the home of a jew. In fact I have this person ON TAPE saying precisely that it was his "first constitutional right". Imagine my dismay when Metcalf welched. He claimed that he wouldn't follow through because this person hasn't been charged with a crime. Truth is the local sheriffs include a few persons whose commitment to diversity is weak. I was lucky to see the sign removed. This will explain why I agreed to the R&I interview. Publishing something about this concern was the linchpin. Soon after roughster started a thread about it here on r.c.com. Thats when a friend told me. It had come to my attention that in an unlikely to effort obscure the nature of his kid's statement the fool had been floating a story that it was a legitimate mistake. That his kid saw my close cropped hair and had divined some element of anti-authoritarianism and concluded THAT I WAS THE NAZI!!! In truth if this kid wasn't literally the bastard he seemed then HE was the only legitimate mistake. But something interesting happened on the thread. My chief critic one brianinslc was trying to float the same absurd story. He suggested that somehow I had found it to be convenient to be a jew in La Verkin and queried, "Who knew??" That was just too much. I learned some basics and logged on under a name that was a contraction of "drilled angle" so I wasn't really trying to hide but engaged Brian Cabe of Salt Lake City in the third person. You can all read the exchange. What he hadn't expected was for me to know who he was. He had been calling into question my word, my honor and my commitment to my heritage from the comfort of anonymity and became a little uncomfortable. Shortly he faded but I continued to have problems with his buddy the father. Then he reappeared last wednesday on this video thread and tried to buddy up to me. Maybe he already knew that after his outburst on the courage thread I had accepted an apology from alpinestylist via PM for the promise of a beer. Maybe he saw that I showed some forgiveness for lambone and flamer. Maybe he was just attempting to mollify me. The following exchange took place: To: dangle Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:36 am Subject: Howdy! "Is there something you wanted to pm me? I detect something different in the air (?)." Nah, same ol' same ol'. Just wanted to remind you to say hi if you're up this way. I should be floatin' around some at the show. Usually see you floatin' around too. Can't remember when you signed my fifty favorites...either at an AAC gathering or OR... I could always offer to buy you a beer at the La Sportiva booth (ha ha!)... You're headed to Ouray, I'm assuming, in early March? Haven't seen the aid video yet. Hopin' there's a copy floatin' around at OR. That other aid climbing vid that's out there is a bit of a dud, IMHO. Had potential, though. Hope things dry out a tad down there...what a snowpack up high... Anyhoo, always enjoy your posts.. Brian, You took some pretty cheap shots at me when you thought I wasn't there. Now you're Mr. Friendly. You can understand if I'm a bit leery. Why don't you tell me what gives. I'm in the dark here. RO To: dangle Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 11:25 am Subject: Re: Howdy! dangle wrote: You took some pretty cheap shots at me when you thought I wasn't there. Now you're Mr. Friendly. You can understand if I'm a bit leery. Why don't you tell me what gives. I'm in the dark here. Nothing gives. And...I didn't think they were cheap shots, and...I wouldn't spray anything on the internet that I wouldn't say to a feller's face, to be sure. I'd assume you'd read anything written about you, especially with some of those thread titles (yes, could be classified as trolling as I hoped you'd see the thread). Both I and most of Springdale got a huge kick out of that Rock and Ice article. Most folks, while they wanted to write a letter to the editor, just didn't have the energy for it (or they didn't want you kickin' their ass for it!)... I've always been "mr. friendly". You've always seemed standoffish. But, some of us aren't name brand, either, and...that's ok. Your contributions to the climbing community are outstandng...but...hey, everyone has their "issues". The guidebook thing, and, that personal Zion thing being two of yours...(unfair to be in the spotlight, perhaps, but, hey, comes with the turf). I'd like nothing more than to see you bury the hatchet on some of this less productive stuff. But, that's not really a hidden agenda of mine. Just something I'd wish for in the new year...and, I'm probably just pissin' in the wind at tryin' to hope for any type of resolution on either front... And, really, if me being "mr friendly" (my nature!) helps, well, more stand to benefit than otherwise. Yada yada. Ron, please, don't be leery in my direction! I'm not "back", I never left (look at my posting history on the site, if you think I'm just poppin' up to bust on you). Seriously, lets chat at OR if you come up. We share some very common interests...and...I'm a bit of a climbing history buff to boot. Or not, I know you're a busy guy. Cheers! -Brian Standoffish? Hmmm . Look I'm not great with faces, but I'm not a snob. I remember when I first met people like Batso, Yvon and Royal. They were like gods, and if I can have a microscopic piece of that when people approach me about my routes (not putting myself in their league) then I always remember my dad and how he always made all the time in the world to answer his fans questions. He was name brand, I'm just an also ran (OK its an issue). Trouble is, I made you. The R&I article was my first time online. Your assumption is weak about me seeing the thread. And read it again and tell me there were no cheap shots. I got on flamers case for spreading rumors without checking with "his friend" as to facts. Ask him what he said. This is not a case of my having overly sensitive feelings. For too long I ignored the rumormongers. The result was that "someone" felt that all the mythology justified his doing something incredibly childish, nasty and expensive. Like flamer, if he had a beef he should have talked to me. Instead he'd smile to my face. I never did anything to him or his family. I DID CLEARLY tell him my heritage before the display. If he didn't endorse prejudice why would he refuse to apologize for his kids putting swastikas outside my house and claim it was his first constitutional right (its on tape). I don't think he's a nazi. I think he decided to dislike me secretly because his motive was shameful in some other way. I can only theorize. Like I say he never came to me with a beef. But you acted as his mouthpiece anonymously only to find I'd made you. Certainly you can understand why I'm leery. Your making friendly COULD be damage control, then again it could be sincere. How do I know? I used "back" colloquially. I'm not entirely oblivious to everything despite how I may appear. But your reference to most of Springdale sounds like an endorsement of the very rumor machine I refered to. I wish the post (for lambone's benefit) that got lost when the system was down earlier this week was available. I explained my background and how it influences my inclination to detach rather than experience further rudeness, even though others might not be inclined to see it so. Maybe that is standoffish, but not unprovoked. The trick is catching the cue. I don't have a problem with debating ideas, theories or values. I welcome it (I'm good at it). But the ad hominen attacks, the lies and hyperbole are not acceptable. The ball is in your court and convincing me could be easier. If you can look at this objectively you might see that I'm trying to be fair. Oh yeah, I really do have a modest vocabulary and John Long doesn't remember where he first came across the word. (Sure seemed like the thread was behind my back. I never got an invite.) To: dangle Posted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:29 pm Subject: Re: ? >I'm just an also ran (OK its an issue). No your not! We've chatted a couple of times. Whats partly neat about attending the AAC annual meeting (without tryin' to sound too sappy) is seeing who and how folks treat the average club members. Its an interesting dynamic. And, some of you folk clean up pretty well... Although, stayin' out of the politics might be the best course for me... >Your making friendly COULD be damage control, then again it could be sincere. How do I know? Dean will be here for the OR. I'm assuming you will be too. I'll buy the beer. He's a good guy (sure, in my opinion). He and I are kinda chatty (and we've climbed together). Its not really my damage control, but, everyone especially the Zion community would benefit if you two got along, instead of apart. Both of you don't seem to be going anywhere. >But your reference to most of Springdale sounds like an endorsement of the very rumor machine I refered to. They're a fun bunch. To be honest, I think most of them are afraid of you. And, no doubt, some of it is petty jealousy and ego (geez, amongst climbers? Whooda thunk?). Its not as much an endorsement as an acknowledgement of the existence of it. Folks talk. And I like hangin' at the Mean Bean... >I wish the post (for lambone's benefit) that got lost when the system was down earlier this week was available. Posting here is frustrating. I learn to copy and save prior to the send button. Masterpieces lost sometimes take too much energy to resurrect. >But the ad hominen attacks, the lies and hyperbole are not acceptable. Can't blame you there. But, man, there's a ton of it on the 'net. See anything posted by drkodos for example. And, some times folks troll for effect, to see what comes up. I dunno. I tell myself, its only the 'net and it don't mean much, but, sometimes it feels like it does especially if it gets personal. >The ball is in your court and convincing me could be easier. If you can look at this objectively you might see that I'm trying to be fair. I do try to be objective and realize that there's two sides (or more!) to every story. Dean and I are friends. You and I could be. Will the circle be unbroken... >Oh yeah, I really do have a modest vocabulary and John Long doesn't remember where he first came across the word. (Sure seemed like the thread was behind my back. I never got an invite.) Behind your back wouldn't be out in the public on a public forum! Didn't you have a similar conversation with Smoot about this same thing, ie, Brian's post on supertopo? Where I see you posting now too, which is super, given Chris Mac and uhh...super topos. Brian and I also climb together. And we trade notes and discuss climbing history (ad nauseum, most would think). So, being that we both enjoy climbing history, we discuss it. And you come up in conversation. Of course. Such a big part especially of the history of Zion canyon. Amazing stuff. Very. Anyhoo, appreciate the dialog. And, seriously, you, me and Dean havin' beers (ok, single malt) and shootin' the breeze (breeze only, please...ha ha...) would be outstanding. Let me know, I'll set it up. Really. Hey, and Smoot can be the designated driver.... Sorry for the stream of consciousness... -Brian Subject: Putting out a burning building with a beer! I have trouble believing that you are that naive. We didn't even talk about him screwing with my rope, but just the property sabotage and the swastikas are enough. Are you really that thick? Do you have any idea how many family members I never met? What the holocaust did to my people (which reminds me of your "who knew" comment. Enough to convince me of at least your lack of common manners and consideration.) What gets me is that you can't seem to accept Dean lying. Well, he's YOUR friend. Sounds to me like that fits. I'm not even going to address the lesser points in your message. Why bother? Dean isn't likely to own up to what he did. You're either trolling or you're in LaLa land. The more I think about the shots YOU took... I suggest you back off. I consider your message harassment. I hope you don't need to be reminded. I had been infuriated by his obsequious overture that lacked any admission of doing me wrong. That he had failed to atone and wanted forgiveness showed he didn't understand the first thing about the difference between Judaism and Christianity. I didn't bother to tell him that I was able with little difficulty to recall the post that was lost in the system as follows: Monday 1/10/05 I sent in a post at about 10:45, but the system went down. I have since reconsidered. First, current events: After 6 years of drought we have been experiencing a SERIES of deluges. One man is confirmed dead a few miles from here. Houses are threatened and there is at least one bridge out. It has been all hands on deck all night. It is my belief that courtesy is a lubricant for a social machine that works poorly at its best. My folks were immigrants and brought their own cultural values with them so my upbringing may have been atypical for americans. Since my dad was a performing artist we would at times have company that required my best behavior so I was drilled early on in polite interaction. This may explain the above belief. It may also explain why I may be too easily offended. What I perceive as offense, inconsiderate or merely absent respect, may in fact be intended as jocular. In the past I allowed people who fell into this small dip in the road a clear view of my back. It is a strategy that has served me well. The reason I say this is that time is a limited commodity and this strategy helps to people the time that I have with individuals of merit and worth. They are more likely to bring something of value to our contact. I've been around over half a century and that tells me that time has become a truly scarce resourse. I welcome ideas that contradict mine especially when they are well and clearly presented. They challenge me to be at my best like a tough climb. Many of lambones points are indeed contrary to mine and so would offer an interesting proposition, but the route just has too much choss to bother with. Tempus fugit. I think my utility trailer is about to float away, so I'm dashing this off. I have been really impressed with all the messages I've been receiving about what nice guys a few of my critics actually are, or how this is standard fare for the medium (another good reason for my late arrival). What I really like is all the encouragement and positive feedback. The common theme appears to be ANECDOTES, ANECDOTES and.... you get the picture. Well kids if you want a bedtime story you're going to have to behave yourselves. That means being civil. My folks taught me that to apologize you must first admit wrong doing without an excuse whereby you contradict yourself. I don't think the above qualifies under that rule, even exempting the next three requisite components. There is however one redemption. I'm a terrible speller, but to me its lambones most endearing quality. I can say with some authority that I have never, never, NEVER scared a climb. mumble mumble (I only wish the reverse was true) LAST CHANCE Although the poorly mannered lambone hadn't fulfilled the first element of an apology I made light of it and mocked his spelling. I feel no need to extend this courtesy to a smarmy unctuous would be neonazi-apologist attempting to cover up a hate crime. The more I considered the exchange the more disgusted I became. Although I had installed a high tech super dooper motion activated night vision security system I had failed to really address the actual problem. The greatest obscenity ever created by man is racial cleansing. It didn't end with the fall of the Third Reich. It was carried on by Pol Pot. It was perpetuated in Rwanda. And a nascent piece of it lives in us all when we lose perspective and begin to excessively look out for number one. It requires only civility to defuse. My father was born in Berlin in 1926. The Nazis were a small but noisy minority. After Hitler became Chancellor my father became a refugee moving to Argentina to grow up. We know now that the Nazis came to power in Germany because people looked the other way. The evil grew because good men did nothing. Peter Metcalf is a rational committed highly intelligent person. He is a more skilled climber than me. He is a nice guy but he looked the other away. He is a good man who did nothing. He is also the person who made a big show of conducting business ethically. That is a glass house. The thing that came to me like an epiphany following the exchange with Cabe was that I had done the same. I had abandoned the pursuit. I had put up a defense and looked the other way. I felt an overwhelming sense of shame. I resolved to change. To refuse to look the other way. This is just the beginning.
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euroford
May 15, 2005, 6:48 PM
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I'd thought i'd bring this one back up since i finally bought the video last week. i should have gotten it sooner, but i tend to avoid mail ordering stuff as its more fun to visit a shop. i stopped in starved rock outfitters (aka, gearexpress.com) and bought it the other day. first off, the whole t-ing off thing is freekin remarable. one of those 'damn why didn't i think of that' ideas. i've always done my aiding with four aiders, two adjustable daisy's and a fifi hook for topstepping. though i think i'll stick to this system for overhanging or exceptionally dicey terrain as it offers much more security and allows you to move up with less effort, Rons single aider/no daisy method works wonderfully for quickly getting into the 2nd or 1.5 steps on verticle C1 terrain, top steps on slightly less than vert. i think now i will keep each adjustable daisy rigged with a single aider and another pair of aiders indipendent. this way i can use the independent aiders ala ron-o style to move faster and when thing get beyond verticle or i get too some dicey moves when i want to be daisyed in i can just clip the indepent aiders into the daisys and revert back to my old style.
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healyje
May 16, 2005, 8:30 AM
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In reply to: The only thing I didn't like about the little boat anchors was their similar behavior. Just as their bigger cousins were designed to catch on stuff they too would snag on everything when carried on a rack. This led to them being carried in a pocket. With regard to racking Crack 'N Ups or other similar devices, I rig them this way so they don't hang up on everything (ignore the bad swaging...). [Note: In general I do this with all beak-like devices and drill a top hole if they don't come with one. Also, this particular one is from a set rigged for free climbing, other sets are short slung or unslung for aid...]: http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/.../500/6299CU0-med.jpg http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/...data/500/6299CU1.jpg http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/...ata/500/6299CU31.JPG
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dangle
May 17, 2005, 8:23 PM
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Well I thought this thread had died but apparently it was merely a comma. Euroford, nice to hear from you. I'm glad you have enjoyed the benefits of getting T-ed off (Should I rephrase...?) Earlier this month I made the first ascent of Taz Tower in Zion and used 3 drilled angles for aid. Two of them required that after topstepping I had to stand on top of them as well just to reach holds that allowed further progress. Although less than 1.7m in height I figure that I got 2m gain from each DA. Keep on reaching higher... Healyje, another successful technique developed by somebody who's thinking. Good on ya mate. I'll spread the word and give you credit. Thanks Ron
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yetanotherdave
Jan 27, 2006, 1:23 AM
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has anyone found this DVD for sale in canada? I don't really want to pay $25 to ship a $25 DVD internationally... thanks Dave
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michaelmcguinn
Feb 9, 2006, 12:58 AM
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I definitely found many interesting things about this Clean Walls: Clean Aid Climbing Instructional Video. The instructional part is so small. There was Ron's jug set up, how to pack a haul bag and a bit on T-ed off that really wasn't done so well. What is up with the head cam on that one? I was hoping to see more on how Ron did stuff like how he racks extra biners in trees of 13. Nice. I learned that from a friend that learned right from RON in Zion. How about that head cam? Not really used. Glad I didn't have to carry it for 30 second of footage. Also interesting is that Ron uses a bunch of his odd ridged stem friends that are slung with webbing from the 90s? Sure looked like this climb was fully sponsored when the haul bag was packed. Now for the biggest part that bums me out is Touchstone Wall. It is advertised as the FIRST ZION WALL THAT IS CLIMBED ENTIRELY HAMMERLESS. Now come on. What about all those drilled angles? While Ron is climbing on film half the gear he is using is fixed gear. PLACED BY A HAMMER. When I climbed Touchstone I carried a hammer but didn't have to use it. No doubt that I would not have made this climb with out the HEAVY use of a hammer that came before me. My opinion is to learn from John Long's Big Walls book and his videos. Jeff Lowe's section on the Lodestone really was not about clean aid climbing. Nice climbing though. Michael
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dangle
Feb 13, 2006, 11:27 PM
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Michael, thanks (I think). Let me clue you in on a few things. Sometimes things get shot out of sequence like the bag packing and some of the climbing. What's more, I wasn't the director or editor or sponsor. Were it up to me there would have been long shots from the summit of the Organ, far more instruction, no Lodestone and a far more in depth discussion of the following; Originally "the Olevsky route" on Cerberus Gendarme upon completion I immediately realized that the route could, with some fixing, be done clean. BTW this was in the years BC (before cams). I at no time EVER claimed to have established the route hammerless. But after climbing the route in May '81 without carrying a hammer I renamed it Touchstone, as much a request as a double entendre. To somehow suggest that because a route originally required a hammer that people shouldn't climb it clean or even be praised for doing so is foolish. We have to deal with the world we have. Is the free ascent of a route negated if it uses pin scars. We have to deal with the world we have. To pretend otherwise is foolish.
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mr8615
Feb 14, 2006, 12:04 AM
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Ron, I bought the DVD after reading this thread last spring, and I love the T-ing off! One question though, how do you do it in dihedrals?? I can top step no problem on any splitter or face bolt/circlehead, but to get Teed off in a dihedral seems impossible, especially if the dihedral isn't dead vertical. To stuff my leg behind the aider/other leg in a corner seems unrealistic (perhaps my feet are just too big!). I have yet to visit Zion and all of my aid has been on granite, but I'm sure I'll have a better understanding of the clean values in the film when I visit Zion this coming year. Thanks for the sandstone stewardship! Mark
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dangle
Feb 14, 2006, 12:13 AM
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Thank you very kindly Mark. Perhaps its just that I have very small feet but dihedrals don't seem to pose much more difficulty. Might I suggest you experiment on a top rope. Work from T-ing off from, say shoulder length sling "steps", and then working shorter to see what you can get comfortable with. Good luck and keep workin' it. Ron
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dingus
Feb 14, 2006, 12:34 AM
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Dangle Have to agree on the Lodestone piece. While I always enjoy hearing Jeff Lowe ruminations, it just wasn't an inspiring segment. In terms of the instructional value of Touchstone... no, it doesn't have a ton of basic how-to stuff involved. However, (as you suggested it might) both my daughters got a lot of intangibles out of it, not the least of which was the chance to see a 'go for it' attitude from a girl close to their age. They were inspired, in a climber's kids' sorta way. They're not lifers yet so I didn't expect a ton of ooo's and aaaahhh's. When we watch climbing vids or look at some awesome pics together, I like to ask them if they could picture themselves 'doing that.' When I was a wee climbing tot myself I remember looking at this photo of some madman on a crag called Crow Hill, running it OUT on some steep terrain. I distinctly remember staring at that photo thinking there was NO WAY, EVER! that I would be able to do that. It was simply beyond all ken. It was a picture of Henry Barber, lol! No freaking WONDER, huh? But I remember that sense of impossibility, that I could never rise to that occasion. All too sadly, but not necessarily, I never DID rise to the level of Hot Henry Barber... few ever have and even in this day and age, few ever will. But when my daughters watched you and, um, Megan (?) doing Touchstone, and particularly when they watched her leading, both of them felt that was within their grasp, that they COULD aspire to do that. Score one for the gipper bro! That is exactly the sort of motivation they need... someone of 'their ilk' out there doing it. Now they don't know about your more (to be delicate) prickly side,. but they bloody well know MINE! Hah. They were watching a young lady climbing with some old coot and they instantly identified, they related. Huge buddy. Like I told you before, I owe you one for that. Next time I'm down that way, I'm looking you up. To buy you a beer or three of course. Rock on. DMT
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healyje
Feb 14, 2006, 12:50 AM
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Dingus, I was back East in NH for two years and did a bunch of climbing at Crow Hill - still have fond memories of the place. Barber, Webster, and others really left the mark on the place. Nice stuff and these days you don't have to contend with mass cluelessness from Ft. Devens trying to kill themselves while pitching stun grenades off the top. Lot's of yelling "Hoss! If you throw another grenade near me I'm going to..." Ah, those were the days. And Ed, if you're out there my hat's off to you, dude, nice stuff.
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dangle
Feb 14, 2006, 12:56 AM
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Prickly? Moi? Truth is, Jeff had that Lodestone stuff in the can and needed something to tack on to make it marketable. It wasn't even CALLED Lodestone until we started shooting on TW (shhhhhh!) Hell, he's done so much to inform and inspire me that I was more than willing to lend a hand. From what I hear the editor submitted an expense sheet of $10K. I didn't bother. The experience was the reward, just like so many ascents. Jeff's hard at work on the Orem climbing park. If you'd been at OR two weeks ago tonight you could have joined us for drinks at my suite in SLC. I'd have told you about my failure on Thin Line at Crow Hill decades ago when my dad was a prof at U Mass.
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michaelmcguinn
Feb 15, 2006, 2:14 AM
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My first post was not really directed an anyone. There was nothing personally directed to RON O. Thanks for responding Ron. I like having goo conversations with other experienced and gear head climbers. It is true that most of my comments/complaints are with the director/editor/producer with Touchstone is touted as the first hammerless route in Zion. Could be a marketing lingo thing. But Ron did you ever have a chance to correct their mistakes? No one needs to carry a hammer on this route and that has been that way since ‘81. A few have though. Definitions definitions Hammerless or Clean?? This debate has already happened. A subject of SUPERTOPO for sure. Touchstone is clean but not hammerless. Ron kind of states in the video during the commentary extra that cleaning nuts with a hammer tap is not considered hammerless. Later, Michael
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tenesmus
Feb 15, 2006, 3:41 AM
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Orem climbing park, or Ogden climbing park?
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dangle
Feb 21, 2006, 7:36 PM
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Orem, Ogden, Oral , Orin, Organ, all those northerners sound alike. Just got an email from John who is having trouble remaining upright attempting to T off. 1) Are you sliding your "free" foot BETWEEN the etrier and the ROCK? 2) Have you attempted to master the technique to create "muscle memory" from a longer or even second step before going short? 3) Have you worked into the technique by using some faceholds as an "assist"? I won't say balance has little to do with it but the leverage exerted with the free foot IS THE PRIMARY MEANS OF UPRIGHT STABILITY. Go out and practice until it seems eminently comfortable from your second step. From it you should be able to be rocked side to side by wind and still feel comfortable WITHOUT fifi or daisy or holding the anchor. Now you're ready to move up to step-and-a-half (or a shoulder sling) and do the same. Top stepping and especially hero looping can be unnerving. It is best practised on a top rope.
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dangle
Feb 21, 2006, 8:41 PM
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And sorry for the delay MichaelMcGuinn. What can I say? You raise some good points. Its a sticky issue I'm VERY concerned about. Without hammers the smooth worn placements are near impossible to clean. I fear that the only workable compromise is; 1)mandatory registration, without it there's no accountability 2)fees, the general public should not be burdened with maintaining a resource for a few climbers 3) designated fixed nuts at critical points to avoid the wear of repeated placement/removal 4) obligatory feedback loops to maintain route status 5) bonds, to insure completion (reducing ankle biting) and prevent bootying needed fixed gear 6) severe bivy limitations, reduces drag erosion 7) quotas, possibly permit lotteries 8) means testing, skill not money; rock does not regenerate, mistakes are cumulative 9) community service, if we are going to (inevitably) degrade a resource we need to contribute to more than merely maintaining it. Its a pretty grim picture that I DO NOT want to see, and yet I see no other way to even mitigate a very rapid demise of the routes I so love. Forcing the NPS to act BEFORE most is lost and without the overeaction of an outright ban is the trick. Some would say I am trying to turn climbing into a rich man's sport but it always has been. When have you ever seen someone who didn't know where his next meal was say,"Wow! What a cool looking mountain. I wonder what the view is like on top."? If the only way to preserve the routes or even just slow their destruction is to turn climbing into a richer man's sport then that's something I'll have to live (and climb) with.
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