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dmckj


Feb 14, 2005, 9:00 PM
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A port in any storm, eh Dangle?

I thought Josh asked you a fairly direct question about your drilled routes which you told an earlier thread reader you'd be 'happy' to talk about.

Let's see some of that happiness.

Maybe this would be a good time for Devo to fess up on the nature of the Snow Canyon routes as well?

Would Devo care to clean the slate and talk about those custom drain-holes?


dmckj


Feb 14, 2005, 9:29 PM
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No small irony here......

Mr. Gill (no unnecessary means......)

I present to you...

Mr. Olevsky (any means necessary......)

Just like a MasterCard......PRICELESS!!!


rocknroll


Feb 14, 2005, 10:01 PM
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Dave

I don't think you understood the spirit of my peace offering since you are continuing with the mockery. If you choose to take the low road I suggest you even the score once and for all and take up Ron's offer to do the lie detector. The access fund could use that money. We may have save Snow Canyon after Ron drills a few more holds on blank faces.

I had a great time with Ron putting up Babes in Thailand in Snow Canyon. I remember one lead where I could almost be accused of chipping holds. I was run out on low angle white rock quivering like Joesph Smith when that salamander started talking to him. I grabbed a baby angle and started pounding it directly into the rock - no drill hole first, just give me something! I pounded the rock so hard that I made myself a nice little foothold that I could stand on and drill the next bolt.

Ron showed me the drilled pockets in Snow Canyon in the early nineties. This was at the time when the euro-tactics had turned us traditionalists upside down. I had already come out of the closet. I was rap bolting, grid bolting, bolting fre climbing bolt ladders. The Cheese Stands Alone on the north face of Central rock in Snow Canyon is an example of that debautchery. So I was converted, but I drew the line at the manufactured holds thing. I could understand epoxying on a loose flake that was already there, but lowering the climb to your ability was not only cheating, but self-serving. If you wanted to create a completely artificial masterpiece do it in the gym. And at that point in time, the climbing community had pretty much decided that manufactured climbs were to stay over in Europe and would not be tolerated here. And in wonderful Ron style, he had to buck the norm. And tell everyone about it. But I was glad that those holds were there when I did the routes! And actually the drain hole in the bottom of the pocket is pretty ingenious. I would say it would be good for any natural hold that has a tendency to fill with sand. Sounds hypocritical, huh? Well, I think chopping bolts or erasing a manufactured route is just as bad. I always say take the high road, which should be the path taken in that situation and the current thread The high road. Diplomacy. Understanding. Forgiveness.


flamer


Feb 14, 2005, 10:02 PM
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In reply to:
Back to Josh, only asked if you figured I was miserly. Probably confused it by mentioning rocks. Sorry.

Fair enough.

For the record!!! I absolutely DO NOT consider you, Ron, to be miserly.

In fact, for everyone else, Ron bought myself and another friend of mine dinner and beers at the Bit and spur. This after only just meeting the 2 of us and knowing full well that we were on the dirt bag budget. We had a great conversation, a good dinner, and I left happy to have a new friend(and reunite with an old one...Scott Morley you around??)

Ron I would very much like to repay your generousity(SP?) sometime....

josh


dangle


Feb 14, 2005, 10:03 PM
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My apologies for the undignified atmosphere sir.

What I'm trying to get at actually gets to the heart of the hold manufacturing issue (or at least one of them). Jeff and I do NOT agree on everything but one thing we DO agree on is that the softer rock will act like a canary in the coal mine to show us what happens as we use the rocks more and more. Wear is cumulative and doesn't heal. That's why we made the video together, to start a dialog on how to mitigate it.

So here are a few questions: How much harder does a route have to become before some kind of intervention becomes desirable on the part of a significant portion of the user population? What percentage should that be? What is an acceptable means to address that? How does a group of (believe it or not) independently minded recreationalists (artists perhaps?) reach some consensus?


dangle


Feb 14, 2005, 10:09 PM
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Cross posted AGAIN!

I gotta stop typing with just the one finger.

Mike, Josh, thanks.

Mike, we still have issues.


dmckj


Feb 14, 2005, 10:23 PM
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Devo,

Sorry buddy....but you lost me on that one.

For the last two decades I have kept my mouth COMPLETELY shut while Dangle did his thing. I challenge anyone to find anything written in any form or forum relating to climbing in Zion that I wrote. ONE item. One bit of 'history'. Dangle's fantasies to the contrary there are none.

I sat by as Dangle drilled out Snow Canyon and the Temple of Sinawava. I sat by while Archangel was mysteriously morphed into the overbolted Prodigal Son.

I took that 'high' road for all of that time. Even when I heard countless tales of my being slandered. And what for? For doing more routes than Dangle? Apparently so.

I took the high road Devo, and I was O.K. with it.

But sometime folks like Dangle just need a good shot to the stomach. Call it tough love.

Let's hear about the route in the Temple of Sinawava and Babe's in Thailand in Snow Canyon.

Bring on your honest and forthright and unafraid to confront the 'truth' attitude Dangle.

Where is it? Or are you looking for another rescue thread?

All can be forgiven of Dangle if he were to show some contrition and some humility and some reflection, but as is painfully evident he has none of that to go around.


dangle


Feb 14, 2005, 10:55 PM
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Mike,
I take it back. The message was still in my outbox. I think that just maybe, hopefully on my part, you may have pulled off a save.

Dave,
I don't want to sound like a broken record (remember that old phrase? broken ipod??? doesn't work) but where is the slander? I said you did not put up routes in Zion in the '70s. Was I wrong?
You want answers to your urgent questions?

So do I.

I'll make it even easier. Brian is a good Mormon and doesn't exactly lie. (He just doesn't tell everything.) You , Mike and of course Dean are the only ones I've heard come up with their own "material". If Brian agrees to back his third for any of you guys he doesn't have to bother with the exam. He does get a vote on the charitable cause though.

Dave and Dean accept. I talk pockets. Drilled angles. Rashoman. My beef soup recipe. My extracurricular adventures. Favorite route names. Who knows what else.


arsenalcrater


Feb 14, 2005, 10:57 PM
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WOW!!! This tread has gone nuts and hexes!!! I have to say that this is the best thread I have ever read on this site. I am so stoked to head back to Zion. We have three trips booked for Cataract Canyon so far this spring. Well, I know where the hell I'm going after the river trips!!!


dmckj


Feb 15, 2005, 9:24 AM
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So... Dangle....looks as if we've done our work as far as boosting the climbing attendance in Zion, and thus increasing the $$$ to Springdale.

So do we proceed to allow this to disintegrate, or put in a temporary pause to allow a rebuilding of the gentle reader base and get those folks back in who were scared away by the heat of the moment? I say we go for the temporary pause....and then get back to brass tacks. My agent says he doesn't want me to get too typecast. Further, Devito gave me a personal ring to say that if you continue with the off-the-deep-end conspiratorial stuff he will have to bow out owing to image considerations. On the other hand Pesci assures me he can follow you into the darkest corner you go. Above all else, we have to retain the 'freshness' in our presentation, otherwise someone might pick up on the fact this is all a scam to line our pockets.

I am a little confused as to our arrangement with the Springdale chamber of commerce.....we arranged a 2% cash payment for the net gain in tourism?? Of that we split: 20% to rockclimbing.com, 10% to Ed the thread initiator, and 35% to both you and I? If the tourists mention the thread we get an immediate extra percentage point?

Remember, this has GOT to be wired directly to my Turks and Caicos account. Otherwise, I'm dead meat with the IRS bastards.

(o.k....now, let's see...how do I send this highly private and confidential message that no one else should ever to in a PM to Dangle...hmmm.....is it this button.....???? DUOH!!!....)


dangle


Feb 15, 2005, 10:46 AM
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Much MUCH better.

Now Dave is catching on.

Last night WAS pretty bad. Running around like an enraged yorkshire terrier that smells another dog and accidentally pees on John Gill's socks.

But Jones has been working on his writing. First he was using new words (no surprise he found a synonym for slander) but this was his first successful foray into contrapositive satire.

Well done! My compliments (although the originality was somewhat marred by the "ring".)

There's hope for this thread yet.

Now. How about that offer? You and Dean step up? Midnight tonight and its twelve grand. (You know how it is when you rely on the truth and can't handle your money.)


epic_ed


Feb 15, 2005, 11:05 AM
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Cool! About time I get paid for my efforts. Ten percent sounds very fair, but I want a shareholders stake at the Mean Bean.

Ed


rocknroll


Feb 15, 2005, 11:44 AM
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Hey Wait a minute!

I thought we were all back-end participants on net profit...now I see you guys are splitting the gross which means nothing for the guy who came up with a lot of the content. What was that you said Ron, Content is King?

And you are letting everyone know about the scam before we came to the climax of the thread...will Dave Jones pass the lie detector test? I may be in it for the money, but mostly I am in it for the artistic intergrity. We must see this movie, uh, thread completed.

And by the way, I think I may have an option deal from Sundance. Bob and I had a brief chat. You know how much he loves his home state. More on that later...


maculated


Feb 15, 2005, 12:45 PM
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In reply to:
Running around like an enraged yorkshire terrier that smells another dog and accidentally pees on John Gill's socks.

Oh God. I just read 20 pages of the best stories, repartee, and flame wars on RC.com, and then you have to end it with this. Thank you.

SNORT!! :wink:


dmckj


Feb 15, 2005, 1:48 PM
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Don't worry brave and gentle readers....we are not NEARLY done with these topics.

I only wished to provide a brief respite so you could all get yourselves some popcorn or beer or whatever....

Add some more coolant, because we've only just begun the heavy pulling....


dmckj


Feb 15, 2005, 1:48 PM
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Don't worry brave and gentle readers....we are not NEARLY done with these topics.

I only wished to provide a brief respite so you could all get yourselves some popcorn or beer or whatever....

Add some more coolant, because we've only just begun the heavy pulling....


dangle


Feb 15, 2005, 3:30 PM
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Mr. Jones,

your credibility is at stake. You expect these readers to believe you after the Yaniro reversal and saying kids in LaVerkin, Utah, the town that "banned" the UN, thought I "looked like a Nazi". What's next? That you actually DID put up routes earlier but you are too modest to discuss them?

Step up to the plate. Less than 8 hours for the bonus. If you are honest what do you have to lose?


ambler


Feb 15, 2005, 4:20 PM
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In reply to:
What's next? That you actually DID put up routes earlier but you are too modest to discuss them?
I'm not sure that's what he claimed. I think he claimed that he did not claim that. You had earlier claimed that he did claim so, and threw the first stones on this thread by, among other things, calling him a "liar" for what you allege that he claimed. It's gotten confusing for those of us without a dog in this race.


bsmoot


Feb 15, 2005, 8:22 PM
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Dangle:

That lie-detector test idea of yours is outrageous. Can’t quite decide how serious you are. Monkeyfinger Wall was MY story. The bit about Terry partaking of the “good Stuff” with you, I’d forgotten about (maybe I can ad that to the story.) I just remember Terry fiddling a lot with that 2-point hammock. Then you got up to go pee…I think you were aiming for the ranger! Then we all sacked out.

Certainly don’t want to go on holding grudges. Remember though, sorry must come from both sides. The darker sides of this thread came to light because you didn’t treat your fellow climbers well. Don’t forget, positive stuff was also said about you by all of us! In my story, 5.11 slab climbers storm Zion, you were funny as hell -- oops, I mean heck. History is a package deal, but…sorry if bummed you. In return, it would be nice if you wouldn’t threaten climbers in the same manner as you did Terry and I.

I’d certainly welcome being on a more civil level with you Ron…you still have some great climbing tales to add to this amazing thread that I’d love to hear. It would also be cool if you could move beyond the Dean Woods thorn. Although I haven’t heard your side of the story, I’ve always wondered: If you’re a secular Jew, why is it bothering you so much? Your negative feelings of anger & revenge are like the Stone of Sisyphus…a heavy burden for you to bear.

Being Mormon, I’ve been harassed & teased a bit, since climbers aren’t the most religious creatures. In this thread I’ve heard one-sided comments about Joseph Smith & John D. Lee, but they don’t bother me cause I’ve dealt with this my whole life… kind of got a thick skin now. You guys DO have mutual friends. We all have a lot more in common than you might think. Zion climbers are masochists…they don’t mind climbing that damn, oops I mean dang sandstone, groveling up new routes, getting cactus in our butts and dealing with the occasional loose, shitty, oops I mean crappy rock, the heat and…oh, gotta go – my Bishops on the phone.


no_one


Feb 15, 2005, 8:41 PM
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Bsmoot
since everyone is pointing out eachothers sins, I thought i'd call you to repentance. Your thread should have said......
[getting cactus in our butts, oops, I mean bums]


no_one


Feb 15, 2005, 8:42 PM
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Bsmoot
since everyone is pointing out eachothers sins, I thought i'd call you to repentance. Your thread should have said......
[getting cactus in our butts, oops, I mean bums]


no_one


Feb 15, 2005, 8:43 PM
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Bsmoot
since everyone is pointing out eachothers sins, I thought i'd call you to repentance. Your thread should have said......
[getting cactus in our butts, oops, I mean bums]


no_one


Feb 15, 2005, 8:44 PM
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what the hell, oops, heck happened there!
Sorry!


bsmoot


Feb 15, 2005, 9:02 PM
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Ahh, a possible convert!


bsmoot


Feb 15, 2005, 9:02 PM
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Ahh, a possible convert!

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