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dangle


Feb 15, 2005, 11:02 PM
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Midnight.
Bonus expired.
Original offer still active.


dangle


Feb 15, 2005, 11:41 PM
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Went back to the first page to check ambler.
While I questioned Jones' candor on dates this hardly constitutes the campaign of slander that he repeatedly alludes to. The mean spirited fables developed by the DDs can hardly be justified as "equal" payback. That they haven't agreed to examine their honesty betrays their lack of it.

Perhaps those that have encouraged I put this behind me would care to shoulder the expense of the vandalism and other costs that have been generated by the mythology that a few find so entertaining to create.

If not then be kind enough not to lecture.

I hope anyone that didn't participate isn't forced to undergo similar targeting. Those that did certainly haven't.


dangle


Feb 16, 2005, 1:15 PM
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Of all the ironies. "Brad Pitt" sandbagged by the D man, whose production team now has the rights to a treatment that is beyond deep, as well as four working titles:

Rampage In Zion

Blood Red Rock

Climb To The Death

The Silence Of The Cams




stay tuned for: Iron Messiah, the FA of the Spearhead


dmckj


Feb 16, 2005, 6:00 PM
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Hi folks....

Sorry, but I've got a huge workload this week and so will have to leave you all 'dangling' for awhile (ooohhh that was bad). Promise to return with, I hope, more fun and instructive histories and stories.

This thread got ignited owing to Dangle's claims (for 15 years now) of my intentionally, knowingly, and conspiratorially trying to write or support a false Zion history. Of course, as I've already stated, the ONLY Zion history I ever participated has the RIGHT dates for everything (remember Ron was wrong twice already early in this thread?), and all the other histories were written with no more than copies of my original topos as input. I no more corrected bad dates published beyond my control than I tried to correct Ron's TRULY willful lies about things such as Spaceshot. Just didn't mean much to mean in my otherwise busy life. Apparently it means a lot to Ron. My alleged co-conspirator in Ron's delusional obsession (re-read the part about my nefarious Dartmouth connection), Mr. Middendorf, basically wrote in and said his history could have been refined but wasn't either willfully wrong or malicious. So, exactly WHERE is ANY evidence whatsoever to support ANY of Dangle's claims. A shred??? Anything?? Where?? When?

Dictionary definition....

Slander: A false and malicious statement or report about someone.

Let's see, without any supporting evidence, documents, etc, etc ..the oral and written campaign Ron has conducted against me IS both false AND malicious. Pretty hard to escape that simple fact.

The many stories Brian, Devo, and I have submitted in this thread are all true (beyond the artistic embellishments), and Dangle's rants about absurd lie detector tests is simply a clever means of changing the subject and avoiding dealing with the reality of everyone's stories about him -- period. What lies? Dangle sued me in court....would any gentle reader be so BOLD enough as to simply confront him as to WHY, and why so if I took him skiing the day following the 'crime'? Dangle put up the obscene pocket drilled route in Temple of Sinawava, not mention the travesties in Snow Canyon. Would anyone else be so bold as to ask him 'what the heck were you thinking and how can you be so hipocritical to 'worry' about conserving Zion routes while you were drilling them out of pristine rock?' Dangle alienated, in a row, Smoot, Josh Lieberman, Steve Chardon, myself, Devo and Mark Pey. That is batting 100% of the climbers I've ever seen him with, except maybe the wall guys from Tucson. Where's the 'lie' in that? Ain't none.

The lie detector matter is just a ploy to avoid acknowledging and dealing with all of this. Again....sad.

Finally, it would be interesting to look at all of the comments from his detractors and see how many positive ones there are. Even I have repeatedly given him credit for certain things...go reread. I said he picked out great lines, had good wisdom about what part of the rock to climb, showed us the Shune's line, picked out and climbed Spaceshot with me, put in a good effort on the bolted chimney on Lovelace, came up with the name Forbidden Wall. If we switched rolls, do you think Dangle would have ONE good word for me (HAH!!!!!)

Now, I challenge anyone to find a single solitary good word of recognition of MY climbing history in Zion (aside from the Wheatberry article he wrote long ago while we were still friends). Maybe there is, but, hey, I'd like to see it. Instead, he lied about Spaceshot in two published articles (or maybe more?) and he admitted to it in this thread. He also admitted here is was to get even with me. Over what???? That I do more routes than he does?, that I kept them mostly to myself?, that I criticize him for dumbing down routes?. THAT, gentle reader, is really what this is all about.

I've never lied about Dangle. Never have, never will. Just diminishes a person's integrity.

See you in a week.

best
D


dmckj


Feb 16, 2005, 6:01 PM
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Oh yeah....and I forgot to mention, most of his route names are pretty darned good....even 'Climb Against Nature'


dmckj


Feb 16, 2005, 6:14 PM
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Ambler...just now read your thread from above.

YOU ARE THE MAN!

That is EXACTLY right!

This is not, and never has been, about route dates.

I owe you a pitcher of 3.2 beer in the Bit and Spur in Zion for so clearly stating what I had HOPED thread readers would see as obvious.

cheers
D


dangle


Feb 16, 2005, 6:15 PM
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This is the story of the seige that became a free climb, almost entirely even by me!

First off, the map error (?).
I suspect that the original "spearhead" was just the small formation at the base. Anyway the USGS Zion Park map assigns the Spearhead to another flying rampart similar in size but not isolation to Angel's Landing. Now just as the windbreaker looks nothing like a musical instrument, the Spearhead appears hardly that and actually looks more like a rattan chair.

The left side of the ESE face has some nice looking rock and in early '88 a friend and I started working on a line left of the eventual IM start. Leaving some rope I returned later and worked out a series of sinuous face moves on the current line that with the right sequence I thought only 5.9 . I then installed a rather sparse 5 pro bolts (I was still in my early thirties).

Four years later I was to submit a great photo of Catherine Destivelle on this pitch only to have the overassuming british editor reject it because of the bolts. He figured any dihedral has a crack.

Wrong.

Anyway much of the first half of the route required cleaning but yielded great free climbing with the exception of the pendulum from what I think was a one-and-half friend (like the DDs?)

Speaking of DDs, now we come to D-Day, April 9, 1988. The planets were all in alignment, the vibes were right, the 120m of rope strategically fixed, my income tax was even done.

Shoes on I started soloing the "approach" to the dihedral at 8:15. At its base I clip one jug to the rope for a "TR" and do all the free moves without rests. Where the three variants diverge I piled the first rope and trailed it while third classing 30m of 5.7 to clip my jug to the second rope which is my pro to the chimney belay.

After OH SO CAREFULLY rigging ropes and pack to pull from above I third class to the small stance on the right wall and pull up the load, then rig a belay for the pitch to my previous high point. Still have to wonder if the prototype soloist was even threaded right. Having used but one point of aid I reached the sloping ledge at the bottom of the final dihedral before 10:00.

Now there are some people so driven to impress others that they might experience a little bit of memory loss, but I'm proud enough of what I would see as my personal best in terms of a day's performance on the rocks that the truth satisfies me enough (ahem, clearing throat). With the dubious self belay I managed to get up this magnificent 55m corner using two aid points.

I knew it would go free. I just wasn't about to dog it out and then lie by not telling the whole truth. Same for the next short pitch to the tree. Most people then do the cracks to the top. Not bothering with a belay I went up the slab to the left which turned out to be easy but spooky on friable holds.

On my topo I wrote 5.4X . Not having heard of such a thing people have said to me,"I couldn't see the one bolt." Cracks me up every time.


The summit was a very personal experience. An enormous natural high only to be contrasted five months later with a fractured spine.


The descent was a 'witch' after I dropped my eight. (Always bring a few ovals. Always bring a few ovals. Always...) Then there was the swinging out away from the dihedral for the rapping lineup to avoid getting my ropes caught in the corner. (A number of people are going, "Oooooh now I get it.")

Done. In the bag. A good route. A cool summit. My first long solo FA with all the iron in situ.

Iron Messiah

Now where was that windbreaker....


dangle


Feb 16, 2005, 6:27 PM
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Too busy writing. Cross posted again.

If Dave wasn't lying why doesn't he want $1000 ? Has he done anything he doesn't want to cop to??

The readers don't have to confront me for "why". If they get YOU to accept the challenge I'll tell what you have obviously conveniently forgotten.

Gee could there be another version?


rockprodigy


Feb 16, 2005, 8:02 PM
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Great story Dangle. Zion climbing is unique in that many of the walls, and especially the free routes, require some amount of face climbing, whereas routes in Yosemite, of other desert routes are frequently pure crack climbing. I think that 5.9 pitch is one of the coolest in Zion. I was really psyched when I first saw it and really enjoyed it. It must have been a bit of a psychological leap for the time period to push a route up a face that was devoid of any cracks...I guess that was common on aid routes, but not free routes.

I regret that I didn't hike to the summit...I need to go back.

I prefer stories to infinite circular arguments.


dangle


Feb 16, 2005, 8:17 PM
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Even infinite circular arguments are better than the redundant parrot act.

I assure you. There is more than meets the eye.

There are questions someone doesn't want to answer.


rocknroll


Feb 16, 2005, 8:33 PM
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rockprodigy wrote:
In reply to:
I prefer stories to infinite circular arguments.

Here! Here! This tit-for-tat thing is making me a bit dizzy. Yes Dave, I think you have finally come to a good conclusion in your war of words with Ron. Now take that lie detector test! The climbing community could use that money!

And Ron, excellent story. Makes me want to go rope solo something (Let's see, the last time was 2 years ago on the Petit Grepon and I almost got struck by lightning - that would have been my fourth strike). I think I have run out of stories, except for that climb we attempted at the Maiden Pools (is that the name?). Remember, the hurricane came in and we watched the flash flood come over the rim. Do you want to tell it or should I? Did you ever finish that climb? Or Appaloosa Rising, as we were going to call the climb from whence you threw the boulder?

And let's all leave the slander behind.
________________________________________

"The facts, ma'am, just the facts."
---Sgt Friday, Dragnet


dangle


Feb 16, 2005, 10:15 PM
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Mike,
I talk history not slander (well OK there were a few names) but interesting that the two with the most to answer for won't answer.

Its EMERALD Pools. No.

How about how those photos on the Organ came to be? (speaking of lightning.)

Too bad you only PMed the Hitler apology. Dave is beyond the pale.

There's a lot more to the T-bird though (and the only ones who no longer climb with me are dead. Jim says only the good die young.)

What about the summit burning in '03. (speaking of lightning again.)


dmckj


Feb 17, 2005, 5:39 AM
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In reply to:
I assure you. There is more than meets the eye.

There are questions someone doesn't want to answer.

Sounds like Dangle lifted this from the screenplay of a History Channel documentary on the House Committe on Unamerican Activites. Next thing you know he'll say he will produce microfilms found from inside a pumpkin. Oliver Stone must have a hand in this.

More Big Lie stuff folks. As I said, look it up in the DSM-IV.

Fairly striking how a guy who virulently lashes out at people at the drop of a hat for being 'against' him is the first guy to whine 'victim' and, worse, wraps himself up in his religion to do so. Another convenient way to avoid looking at your own actions and taking responsibility for them. The guy who demands unnecessary apologies from everyone else (and has conned them from many folks on this very thread) is incapable of introspection or perspective. Not only are you a master at splitting Dangle, but you are the unassailable master at projecting. I bow to you.

Let's hear about the history of 'Climb Against Nature', move for move, er, uh, battery pack for battery pack. And the lawsuit......how DO you explain that? And threatening to shoot people's ropes....., etc, etc.

Gotta run.
D


tenesmus


Feb 17, 2005, 8:24 AM
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Great story Dangle. Thanks.

Dave, Brian, John, Rockprodigy - we want to hear more from you too!!


ambler


Feb 17, 2005, 10:24 AM
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In reply to:
I owe you a pitcher of 3.2 beer in the Bit and Spur in Zion for so clearly stating what I had HOPED thread readers would see as obvious.
Thanks, I'd like to take you up on that sometime. Any tales I could trade from the Red Rock would sound tame by comparison; no drugs, rage or dishonesty that I recall, and the principals are still good friends. This Zion thread, however, is among the most fascinating I've seen on any climbing site, with lots of historical anecdotes and details that were otherwise fading away.

As for the thread's controversies ... it might not be obvious to casual readers, but I think there are only a few core claims actually being disputed here -- that is, facts claimed explictly by one party and denied explicitly by the other. Chief among these claims is what kicked the fight off: dangle's multiple statements on the first page of this thread that Jones dishonestly claimed 1970s first ascents, through

"erroneous years listed for numerous FAs provided by Jones",

and that

"his [Jones'] chronology predates his routes by a year or two, he postdated some of mine"

and furthermore, that Jones'

"false claim"

of 70s ascents was the basis for Middendorf's history. Later on the first page, dangle wrote that in an R&I interview, dangle deliberately credited Pey rather than Jones with the FA of Space Shot, in order to repay

"Jones' deliberate dishonesty with a speck of my own.
It was a private joke to further obscure the history and deny the original liar
[Jones] credit."

Elsewhere on the first page, dangle said that Jones

"also wrote a telling piece of fiction called B. G. Goes to Zion.
B G stands for Blond God and while Jones claimed to have created the character from whole cloth it was a thinly veiled depiction of Fischer'


Jones did not enter the thread until midway through its second page, but then categorically denied dangle's accusations:

"Although I'm not inclined to lower myself, Mr. Olevsky's willingness to slander others in open forums deserves some sort of rebuttal because the poison of his comments should not pose as 'history'.

First, other than the 1984 article in Climbing I have never provided anything other than copies of my original topos for anyone's guide, period. I never promoted my routes. I have always simply provided topos to people who asked. All the topos I submitted were original with correct first ascent dates and personnel. No guidebook author ever ran copy by me for final proof. Any errors in their guides are the fault of the authors.
"

Also, Jones said that he did not base the 1983 story BG Goes to Zion on Fischer, and in fact didn't meet him until later.

In subsequent posts, dangle stuck by his accusations and Jones stuck by his defense.

A lot of other stuff has come up but more as a crossfire of new issues and stories, without such clear contradictions between claims -- court cases, threats, FA interactions, ethnic harassment, and overbolting or route manufacturing, for example. All that stuff is interesting and important as well; I (and probably other readers) would like to know more. But in this post I thought it was valuable to clarify the core argument that set the thread in motion. Have I got it right?


dangle


Feb 17, 2005, 11:36 AM
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I went to bed early last night eased by the prospect of a week's respite and considering the further prospect of using some fresh dill with some wild salmon, trying that new Pinot Grigio, and maybe a few more books.

Didn't turn on the gadget until noon.


No such luck!!!!! Damn that was a fast week!



By now any thorough reader (if indeed there still are ANY) must be asking;

Will this pissing contest EVER end?
And why so much vinegar too?
And how could a yorkshire terrier piss so much?
Could he have been drinking too much and saving it for decades?


Well, ambling into the fray we have a diligent researcher who unlike myself has bothered to learn how to do that quote thing. So after a little lunch , a rest in the sun, taking care of some errands as well as my pets, I shall try to emulate ambler's clerical research with a concise detailed list.

Still , I couldn't help but laugh when I read that Jones' first words in this were (and noob that I am I must retype this, with one finger ofcourse),

"I'm not inclined to lower myself (to) Mr. Olevsky's willingness to slander others in open forums..."


no_one


Feb 17, 2005, 1:24 PM
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Great story Ron! Please don't stop with that one though!

I agree this thread has been great but all the shit talk from all sides is getting old. Lets hear more stories, and please feal free to spice them up with a little artistic creativity(we all do it).

Dave, just take the test! As others have stated. The climbing community could use the money. And don't stop with your stories either!

I think if there's something we can "all" learn from this, it's... Write it down as soon as you get to a pen and paper and store it in a safe place for future referance (unless you have one of those fancy cameras like Me, that prints the date on the photo).

Thanks guys; MORE STORIES!!!


dangle


Feb 17, 2005, 3:40 PM
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Hey Steve,

good to see you're still in the mix. What did you think of Brian's suggestion that because I don't attend regular services that I shouldn't object to swastikas outside my home, taken in light of the outburst at the game friday and the way I handled it?


To the rest,
business, then a beer, then the news, then dinner, THEN the list.


caughtinside


Feb 17, 2005, 3:51 PM
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In reply to:

Dave, just take the test! As others have stated.

Don't be ridiculous. Who settles an argument with a lie detector test? Come on.

Love the stories though.


no_one


Feb 17, 2005, 5:21 PM
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hey, caughtinside! Sorry I can't give you any historical examples of an argument that has been settled by a lie detector test, but come on man, whats that got to do with anything. If it makes it easier for you, think of it as a FA. Dave's got plenty of classic FA's under his belt, this could be another classic that's not rated A4, that the rest of us more moderate climbers could benefit from...rated C10,000.

Ron, My appoligies for the comment made the other night. It was wrong! I've got to say, you handled it perfectly! Thanks!

Also,
Ron, I don't think anyone deserves to be the target of bigotry and hatred. And I'm sorry you were. Your a good guy who has seen and done more in his life(some good, some bad) than most can even dream of. But how many more years are you going to spend brewing your own hatred over what a couple of kids (Deans kids) did to you. It was ignorant and wrong but haven't we all done things just as stupid and thoughtless. You've got another 30 to 40 years in ya. Don't spend it fighting old battles! Spend it doing what you love, with people you like. I'm excited about the friendship we seem to be building, and look forward to learning more from you in the years to come.


pmyche


Feb 17, 2005, 5:39 PM
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Semi-drift: I'm with caughtinside for my own reason. Anyone who thinks a polygraph is definitive is delusional. Do they use them in court? Yes. Are they 100% accurate? No way in hell. I was tested on a polygraph by one of seven people licensed to do so for judicial proceedings in AZ, and resultant, I was wrongly implicated of something (my test was not in a court situation). So was my buddy who was tested at the same time I was. We were failed b/c the tester decided we should be based on background info and bias. So please do not make me laugh by touting a polygraph test as something which unequivically upholds the truth. What an absolute crock of shit that is.


dangle


Feb 17, 2005, 6:34 PM
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Well it looks like before I work on ambler's list I'll need to address a few things, one of which is why the list doesn't really cut to the core.

Its not difficult to see the analogy between Jones' ancient gripe and what might appear to be mine.
Apples and oranges.

I am currently dealing with campaign that is far more serious than the mere dissemination of lies and embroidered half truths, but that is how it began. It is now a litany of crimes and suspected crimes that include not only theft and felony vandalism but possible attempted murder related to tampering with a fixed rope of mine.
The father of those kids, the person who hopes to earn his income largely off of people aspiring to repeat my routes is at the core.

No more details. Thats all you get.


Mike I'm dissappointed. Sorry to hear you got screwed but still...


I never said or even expected that a polygraph was 100%.
Still I might be able to kill two birds and go get stoned.


What have they got to lose? Let them take the exam. They can show us they're as honest as Boy Scouts.



But before working on the list we need a comedy break. So I'll first work on; The story Duane Raleigh couldn't find space for.


dangle


Feb 17, 2005, 7:35 PM
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When Duane interviewed me via my brand new toy this very computer he spent a lot of time on guns. I got the feeling that this would be one of the central thrusts of the article and so accommodated him with photos and opinions about various types of ordnance.

He wanted to know if I owned a _________ mispronouncing the name of a commonly known manufacturer of a medium grade long range rifle chambered for the magnificent .50BMG (fifty calibre Browning machine gun cartridge).

I assured him that while I had little qualms with other citizens possessing the means with which to take out lightly armored vehicles at 1,200m that my only fifty calibres were part of my pirate outfit.

Pirate outfit? Do tell.

If I absolutely must wear a costume in order to attend a party its always the reliable pirate outfit. This of course always promotes a slew of comments like,"Ron, you were supposed to wear a costume!"

My pirate outfit is, quite naturally, authentic in every regard. Chinese silk bandanna, American latigo, French dueling shirt, African diamond, Japanese walrus ivory amulet, and for weaponry a hundred year old (razor sharp) Argentine short sword made on a German Solingen blank, a Randal dirk and two fully functional .50 calibre cap and ball single shot handguns. (OK there might also be a .45 back up.)

I have a small carved wooden box in which I keep some human teeth (do NOT ask). On Halloween mornings I dab a little fresh blood on the roots of the teeth and leave it by the front door. Then before the little bastards start showing up I put on the pirate outfit.

When I answer the door in, shall we say, a dramatic fashion they freak. But then they quickly gain composure when I proffer large amounts of really good candy.

But before they leave I make all but the smallest carefully look inside the box and I tell them what will happen if they actually EAT the candy.

If their parents are there I get looks of confusement or horror and usually never see them again. If their parents AREN'T there they are usually back in under an hour.

I wonder what Dave's pirate outfit looks like. He probably has a parrot on his shoulder with the cliche sounding voice that repeats,
"crimes against nature
crimes against nature
crimes against nature"

or maybe
"15 years of slander
15 years of slander"

Lets see, the Bjarnstad book came out in '96.
So in another 6 years at least the bird will be right mathematically.

Still I have a real problem with a parrot on the shoulder of one of those poor little dogs. Somehow that's just wrong.


bsmoot


Feb 17, 2005, 10:21 PM
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Re: Zion climbing history [In reply to]
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Sadly, last Year a Boy Scout died on Angel's Landing. A large number of scouts were on the top of Angel's Landing and some of the boys dared another to cross over an exposed section. As the boy climbed out over the edge, one of the other scouts said "don't get killed." Moments later, the scout slipped and fell hundreds of feet to his death. I'm not sure exactly where he fell.

What I have heard about this story from the local climbers is that when the rescue team was descending down Angel's Landing to recover the boy's body, they ran into some fixed ropes which they used to help them reach the boy. Afterwards, it was learned that it was Dangle's ropes that they had used. For reasons that Ron might want to explain, the Park Service was asked to replace his fixed ropes.

Now that you've dangled a carrot in front of our noses about this fixed rope issue, please tell your side of the story.


dangle


Feb 18, 2005, 6:34 AM
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Re: Zion climbing history [In reply to]
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I've already made note of Brian Smoot's initials and in his last post there is ample support of this observation. Once again there are narrative gaps that mislead the reader.

After the boy fell a helicopter was used to shuttle a "rescue crew" to the summit and to search for the body which turned out to be on a large terrace about 80m up the SW face. A questionable decision was made to install bolts on the summit and lower the crew to the terrace. After the body was evacuated by helicopter the crew descended further to a brand new rope placed by me the day before on a new route I was working on. The standard descent route from the terrace was a rappel first used by Fred more than 35 years ago. It was evident nearby.

For reasons that the park service has been unable to explain the crew, knowing full well that the rope was mine and including Dean Woods, used the rope to descend while belaying with their own rope. They untied the rope from the numerous intermediate anchors. They did not retie the rope to the anchors. They made absolutely no effort to contact me to warn me of the alteration.

In subsequent interaction I was to find that the leader of the crew had no idea whatsoever of the reason for the intermediate anchors.

I made a surprise visit to the Superentendant of Zion and a park ranger who had been on the crew. They were either too ignorant or too cagey to admit that even USING someone else's rope without having a darn good reason was ethically highly questionable. They did however concede that the rope should have been retied and that I should have been informed.

Since the rope had been brand new and care was NOT given to mitigate abrasion in the way the rope was left (they didn't even tie down the end to keep it from blowing away) they agreed to replace the rope. It took a month but when they did so the leader incorrectly tied the new rope in. Then ignoring my specific recommendation not to he did one long rappel from the terrace.

I had warned him that using three short single rope rappels was less likely to result in a stuck rope or rope caused rockfall. Both ocurred. The rock that came down was big enough to kill anyone.

A former President of the AMGA who also happened to have a Master's degree in Ethics wrote a letter to the Superentendant who didn't respond. I attempted to contact him as well but my calls were not returned.


Brian Smoot has played the role of a slippery weasel. He made a ludicrous suggestion that as a secular jew I shouldn't object to swastikas. He inferred that I had slighted the mormons in mentioning John D. Lee. He also incorrectly suggested that I had objected to the rescue crew using my rope to find what might still be a live boy scout. Already in the Monkeyfinger tale he has admitted to a critical omission yet he continues to employ this tactic.

Perhaps he or a member of the crew would care to offer an explanation of these actions or why it was necessary to place three honkin' bolts where five routes end at a tree over a foot around. One of those routes being the first on the Landing, and hadn't required any bolts at all.

In either case Brian has misled the readers in yet one more important turn because my previous post that mentioned possible crimes and a fixed rope DOES NOT REFER TO THE ACTIONS OF THE CREW ON THIS BODY RECOVERY.

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