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dangle


Feb 20, 2005, 6:13 PM
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In reply to:
I'd hate to get cought in the middle of this honesty.

So for example a lie of omission would say be to quote no_one as;

"I'd hate to get a cough in the middle of dishonesty."


dangle


Feb 20, 2005, 6:44 PM
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In reply to:
Just as I shared a story...which pointed out his kindness towards me...I would like to share a similair story concerning Mr. Smoot.

Brain put up a route on the backside of the Great white throne a couple of years ago (maybe only 1?). I Pm'd him showing interest in repeating his route.
Without hesitation he mailed(as in postal service) me a topo and supplied me with any beta I asked for.

So, without getting involved in any of the friction going on here, I'd just like to say thanks Brian... I hope to return the favor some day.

josh


So in the same way that Brian leaves a few items out or reorganized I could say that flamer said;
"I would like to share a...story concerning Mr. Smoot. Without hesitation...Brian...supplied me with any..kindness...and put up..the backside of..me..without any..friction.
I'd just like to say thanks Brian...I hope to return the favor some day."

I must say, Brian really is the MAN. I can only imagine what his bivies with Dave and his dress are like. (But that alone is plenty of fun.) And just how does Brian do it without any friction?


dangle


Feb 20, 2005, 7:17 PM
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chairmanmeow


Feb 20, 2005, 7:21 PM
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In reply to:
"I would like to share a...story concerning Mr. Smoot. Without hesitation...Brian...supplied me with any..kindness...and put up..the backside of..me..without any..friction.
I'd just like to say thanks Brian...I hope to return the favor some day."

I must say, Brian really is the MAN. I can only imagine what his bivies with Dave and his dress are like. (But that alone is plenty of fun.) And just how does Brian do it without any friction?

Wow, Ron, that is so delightfully out of line it looks like something I would post. Now I get your previous comment asking whether his bishop knows. The real question here in Utah is, does his wife know? No, I'm just kidding. Far be it from me to assail someone for their sexualilty, albeit a biblically questionable and therefore DOWNRIGHT UNAMERICAN sexuality.

But wait, Ron, I thought you were the only crossdressing FAist in the area. Are you now saying that Dave was putting up lines in a dress too? Is this like a rite of passage? If I solo something in a skirt, will I be cool like yous guys?

Oh, and Ron, for a frictionless *ascent* just use Astroglide. (don't worry, it's not a dirty link)


dangle


Feb 20, 2005, 7:49 PM
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Ah hah. I knew it. Mr. Meow, cat that he is, has been watching all along, but when he smells LDS blood in the water turns into a tigershark..

Certainly he recalls from a half dozen pages back;
In reply to:
I am the Walrus writes....

In reply to:
Were there any other gals putting up routes or of other historical note in Zion besides Stacey Allison and Amanda Tarr?

Good question...

The only other was myself when I dressed up in drag, which wasn't very often since Utah only serves 3.2 beer.

One need not bother with my response...


dangle


Feb 21, 2005, 7:44 AM
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A moment of silence for Hunter Thompson.

May he yet find new ways to let us see the world.


dangle


Feb 21, 2005, 8:06 AM
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Yesterday was tough on celebrity indeed.

Besides Sandra Dee we also lost John Raitt.

He starred in Carousel and the Pajama Game with Peter Birch, whose son Douglas and I were best friends in Hackley. Douglas and his sister Nancy who I lived with used to be in day care with Bonnie when their fathers were working.
We met several times in '73 when she was just starting out in the recording industry.
I'm still good friends with Douglas, who is now a grandfather. The last time I was in Boston we went to lunch with Brad Washburn who regaled us with wonderful stories. Its nice to have room in one's memory for lots of good things...


ratagonia


Feb 21, 2005, 1:12 PM
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Hey, ever get up that route on TimberTop?

TJ


dangle


Feb 21, 2005, 3:10 PM
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But of course Tom. Earl Redfern and I finished the T-bird in '86. Still that story comes after the Tale of Recall Boy and the story of Abbey Tower.

Really Tom! You don't want to get all the narratives confused do you?


I would like to point out that Brian is close to straightening out our misunderstandings and I eagerly await his post. It would be nice to concentrate on the good memories.

I would also like to point out that Dean Woods and Dave Jones could still earn the climbing community a 10K bonus. It wouldn't take much. Just telling the truth.


dangle


Feb 22, 2005, 10:44 AM
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Its about time to address ambler's list though I doubt that resolution is likely by doing so. Still it won't be due to my unwillingness to speak directly to the issues in question.

In reply to:


As for the thread's controversies ... it might not be obvious to casual readers, but I think there are only a few core claims actually being disputed here -- that is, facts claimed explictly by one party and denied explicitly by the other. Chief among these claims is what kicked the fight off: dangle's multiple statements on the first page of this thread that Jones dishonestly claimed 1970s first ascents, through

"erroneous years listed for numerous FAs provided by Jones",

and that

"his [Jones'] chronology predates his routes by a year or two, he postdated some of mine"

and furthermore, that Jones'

"false claim"

of 70s ascents was the basis for Middendorf's history. Later on the first page, dangle wrote that in an R&I interview, dangle deliberately credited Pey rather than Jones with the FA of Space Shot, in order to repay

"Jones' deliberate dishonesty with a speck of my own.
It was a private joke to further obscure the history and deny the original liar
[Jones] credit."

Elsewhere on the first page, dangle said that Jones

"also wrote a telling piece of fiction called B. G. Goes to Zion.
B G stands for Blond God and while Jones claimed to have created the character from whole cloth it was a thinly veiled depiction of Fischer'


Jones did not enter the thread until midway through its second page, but then categorically denied dangle's accusations:

"Although I'm not inclined to lower myself, Mr. Olevsky's willingness to slander others in open forums deserves some sort of rebuttal because the poison of his comments should not pose as 'history'.

First, other than the 1984 article in Climbing I have never provided anything other than copies of my original topos for anyone's guide, period. I never promoted my routes. I have always simply provided topos to people who asked. All the topos I submitted were original with correct first ascent dates and personnel. No guidebook author ever ran copy by me for final proof. Any errors in their guides are the fault of the authors.
"

Also, Jones said that he did not base the 1983 story BG Goes to Zion on Fischer, and in fact didn't meet him until later.

In subsequent posts, dangle stuck by his accusations and Jones stuck by his defense.


The first piece of evidence would be the Jones/Pey list in Climbing October,'84,pg 34. This list postdates the FA of Cerberus. It also puts forth that the FA of Spaceshot is credited to Pey and myself. The R&I rap sheet merely repeated an error by the very editor that Jones cites as a source for "15 years of slander". Jones then claims I "repeatedly" lied, and he even REPEATS the accusation.
I don't have many guidebooks in an extensive climbing library as I almost always climb my own routes, but by the time the Jones "history" made its way through various people's guides to the Bjarnstad Guide to Climbing in the National Parks Jones had done Red Arch BEFORE the actual date for the FA of Spaceshot, which likewise was predated.

Before Dave protests that this was not his doing I refer the reader to the previous example of how misleading not telling the whole truth can be. By keeping quiet he allowed undue credit to fall his way. As I stated a long ways back if he had just been more forthright "he would be greatly more admired."
Instead he claims ascents of Exedrin and Boring Crack and even (falsely) Touchstone in the seventies leaving the issue of FAs unaddressed.

Indeed Middendorf who until now refused outright to answer ANY questions regarding an ambiguous historical statement made on page 14 now says merely that it was a brief history. Is it just me or does the reticence of one bolster the story of the other?

Dave's reticence is extended to the question regarding his meeting Fischer, and a statistician would have a field day showing the odds of Jones describing in fiction a character of the same build, same hair color, same unusual disdain for camming devices, and same make, and same model, AND same year of vehicle are longer than hitting an inside straight flush.

If only we could just settle this definitively with a game of poker.


Stay tuned for the Tale of Recall Boy and the story of Abbey Tower, named in memory of Edward Abbey.


dangle


Feb 22, 2005, 6:15 PM
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The low level of the Green River wouldn't last long but in early November of '83 it caused problems as I motored upstream from my Bronco in a canoe. Like Ariadne's thread it guided me through the Labyrinth and just as I was to turn around and drift home tired of bottoming on hidden sand bars it beckoned me with one more turn.

And there it stood.

Oh I could easily use the plural as there were a cluster of Wingate spires, but there was one that was far the most desireable summit. It's slender profile ended with a summit like a cobra's head. This would be the goal of a quest that would last the better part of that decade.

Unprepared to attempt it I was even forced to float the last miles by moonlight. I returned home only to find that I had missed seeing my friend Scott while I had spent time near Moab. Instead Jones was still around.
After Mark and I put up a long route with all the needed fixed gear in place the previous month Dave had been asked to climb anywhere but there as we had left food and wanted to try the next crack over as well.

Sure enough he and Chardon had eaten the food and bagged the crack as if there was nowhere else to go. Dave had annoyed three of my partners with whom I would yet have long associations the previous two times I had climbed with him, and Mark had had problems with Dave that summer in France.

Chardon and I likewise had had problems when two years earlier he had thoughtlessly abused my prime lead rope jumping up and down on the middle mark bent over an edge rather than add a biner to a belay. He had welched on his promise to replace the rope. Now back he finally was willing to buy the rope two years late but the rope was no longer available so he offered a lesser deal.

Jones had constantly wheedled out of expenses in the past. The first time he stayed at my apartment the guy I shared it with had just been on his way on a trip and suggested Dave could use his room. Ten days later Jones protested that he hadn't been MY guest but his and then gave me $12 for driving him halfway across the state and back including 100 miles of dirt road.

I'd had it with the cheap bastard and let him know as much suggesting that Mark had told me about the epic caused when Dave didn't want to spring five francs for mass transit. I drove off while he was still spouting.

The next day I got a collect call from Warren Harding, who I had only met once. It was suspicious but I was curious.
It was Dave. He assured me that he would pay for the call and that he wanted to meet me and talk. Although I hate it he somehow talked me into going X-country skiing since he didn't want to buy a lift ticket. The plus was visiting George Hartlmaer a fellow climber.

Turns out like always Dave wanted to compete and I didn't. With lots of fresh snow to either side we plodded along on the road with 2WD cars running next to us. Finally I went into the trees but after 10 minutes Dave wanted back on the road. I headed back to his truck (the first ride he'd ever given me despite all the Spaceshot and Hole in the Rock mileage) and Dave continued on.

Back at the truck the real reason for the invite was made bare. I was informed that Mark was only a mediocre climber and I shouldn't climb with him. I was also informed that I now owed Dave travel money.

To make a pathetic story short, Dave threatened to strand me next to the road with my skis unless I abandoned my dinner and gave him fifty freakin cents!

Dave would later say that our friendship ended on a day the following spring. Shows what he knows. It must be interesting being a "super hero" with the ability to control one's own memory.



The first attempt on the cobra head in April nearly killed me. Tony Valdez and I motored up and started up the tower in good order. When I was most of the way squeezing between an 8m high pillar and a dihedral Tony said he thought that the pillar had moved a bit.

"Nonsense" I said, "This thing is too big to move."

Then I felt it move too.

Instantly instead of pulling out on it I was desperately pulling on the dihedral crack and trying to shove the pillar back!!
Somehow holding it with my knee I was able to place a piece, clip my haul rope in after passing it BEHIND the pillar, clip it to me, untie my lead line which Tony pulled clear. He could then hold me on tension and throw the end back which I loosely lasooed over the top.

Then holding my breath I slowly eased off the pillar. Appearing stationary I quickly lowered and cleared the haul line. Then with TWO FINGERS I pulled on the lasso and easily flicked it clear as about 5,000 pounds of sandstone thundered harmlessly past us

The attempt was cut short the following day with a windstorm that we watched flip our tent dumping most of our water. After nearly swamping we even halted our escape and I went to hunt for a cottontail for dinner while Tony stayed with the boat. Approaching a glen with the wind in my face I stalked around a boulder to find a young doe less than 10m in front of me. I raised my pocket .380 centered the sights perfectly. Still undetected I placed my finger on the trigger...

and said "BANG!"

The frightened deer bounded off. If I had been days without food it would have ended differently.



This post is already too long so fast forward to May,'89. Now having put up many routes together Dave Mondeau and I finally climbed the tower, my third attempt. Mondeau had the second pitch and once again to my chagrin had hammered a nut in. Even though I could see my initials stamped into the top I left the nut rather than compromise my clean or fixed ethic.

On the summit we party and shoot off my pocket pistol. A thousand feet below boaters are amazed.

Fast forward again past the second ascent by an erstwhile pioneer diappointed by our slings. At a party hundreds of miles away surrounded by strangers not known to be climbers someone mentions Edward Abbey.

Now this story might explain why I've had it with people spreading BS about me. I began to tell a true story about the SECOND ascent of Abbey Tower. How a climber found the nut with the initials RO and exclaimed "that DAMN OLEVSKY!"

Immediately one of the people present started to describe a ridiculously absurd story about how "that guy Olevsky" got kicked out of Zion...


tenesmus


Feb 22, 2005, 6:46 PM
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I like reading climbing stories enough to read every page of this loooong thread. Ron, you are a petty man. This is what makes it easy for people to disparage you.


ambler


Feb 22, 2005, 7:26 PM
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In reply to:
Its about time to address ambler's list though I doubt that resolution is likely by doing so. Still it won't be due to my unwillingness to speak directly to the issues in question.
....
The first piece of evidence would be the Jones/Pey list in Climbing October,'84,pg 34. This list postdates the FA of Cerberus. It also puts forth that the FA of Spaceshot is credited to Pey and myself.
OK, let's use this opportunity to set the record straight and reach a consensus if we can. Below is the list that you mention, described as "Recommended Recent Routes" on p.34 of the Oct '84 issue of Climbing. In parentheses, I've added alternative names, dates or FA parties from Eric Bjornstad's Desert Rock, 1996 -- if EB's info differs from that in the Climbing article. Where I wrote (EB, ?) I did not see a route by this name in Bjornstad's guide, but I'm no Zion expert and might not have looked the right place.

So, what is the correct info in each case?

Cerberus -- Olevsky 1978 (EB, Touchstone Wall -- Olevsky 1977)
Empty Pages -- Pey and Jones 1982
Silmaril -- Gray and Jones 1983 (EB, ?)
Fang Wall -- Gray and Jones 1983 (EB, Lovelace)
Lost in Transit -- Chardon and Jones 1983 (EB, ?)
Wages of Sin -- Chardon and Jones 1983 (EB, ?)
Monkeyfinger -- Olevsky 1978 (EB -- Olevsky and Schelker 1978)
Catharsis -- Olevsky 1983 (EB, ?)
Space Shot -- Pey and Olevsky 1980 (EB -- Olevsky and Jones 1978)
Moonlight Buttress -- Low and Weiss 1971
Equinox -- Olevsky and Strassman 1984

For the benefit of readers whose attic does not contain Climbing back to issue #1, etc., it might be worth mentioning again that John Middendorf wrote the history notes for the Zion section of EB's guide. Middendorf's paragraph about the era in controversy is not specific about dates. It reads in full:

In reply to:
In the late '70s and early '80s, Ron Olevsky and Dave Jones were responsible for a new wave of quality routes, as they developed a new clean ethic largely made possible by the advent of Friends, revolutionizing climbing smooth parallel cracks in the desert. Two separate trends that enabled many of the longer routes to be climbed clean developed: Ron Olevsky began a trend of modifying placements on routes to enable subsequent ascents to be completely cean, while Dave Jones found natural lines and pushed free climbing standards so fewer non-clean placements were necessary. Routes of this period include The Thunderbird Wall and Catharsis in Kolob and Monkey Finger Wall, Spaceshot, Touchstone Wall, Shune's Buttress and the Fang Wall in the main canyon.


dangle


Feb 22, 2005, 7:28 PM
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Anonymously said Mr. Well.

Certainly unwarranted also. (With no otherwise redeeming value, why are you here?)


dangle


Feb 22, 2005, 7:54 PM
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Cross posted to ambler.

OK Lets ressurrect the horse. What the hey, near 19,000 views I know they're not all six people.

Touchstone Wall FA 1/17/77

Catharsis FA Mark Pey, Ron Olevsky October '83,
second ascent Steve Chardon, Dave Jones same month. Jones claimed to have nearly freed the 4 pitch dihedral (not addressing sling belays).
On page 89 of EB Catharsis is called a two pitch free route by Jones under a different name.

Page 67 of EB also lists the FA of Shune's as BEFORE Spaceshot rather than in the following year (as would be correct.)

The Middendorf history would have been more accurate to say," In the late seventies and early eighties" RESPECTIVELY.
Furthermore it could have included a few words about Fischer.
Furthermore it misrepresented CONSTRUCTIVE scarring. It was a technique that did not advocate scarring but rather advocated the MINIMIZING of scarring where necessary.

Does anyone have contrasting info from any of the other guidebooks?


ambler


Feb 23, 2005, 7:37 AM
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After calling Jones a liar 7 different ways on the first page of this thread, accusing him of writing a chronology that predated his ascents and postdated yours ... it comes down to this?
In reply to:
Touchstone Wall FA 1/17/77
(given as 1978 in the Climbing article), and
In reply to:
Catharsis FA Mark Pey, Ron Olevsky October '83
(given as Olevsky 1983 in the Climbing article).

Otherwise, you take issue with some dates in the Bjornstad guidebook, or certain words used by Middendorf:
In reply to:
The Middendorf history would have been more accurate to say," In the late seventies and early eighties" RESPECTIVELY.
Furthermore it could have included a few words about Fischer.
Regarding guidebook dates or details, in my experience errors are commonplace. I can think of 5 recent guidebooks, offhand, that contain errors regarding personnel, dates or descriptions of routes I've been involved with, and several of those copied the errors from earlier books...in no case has anyone been lying, these were simple mistakes. Also, some other books have "history" sections that describe the past differently than I would have, but again there's been no ill intent.
In reply to:
Furthermore it misrepresented CONSTRUCTIVE scarring. It was a technique that did not advocate scarring but rather advocated the MINIMIZING of scarring where necessary.
So then, Climb Against Nature -- what's the other side of that story?


dangle


Feb 23, 2005, 8:19 AM
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Sure ambler, Jones had no ill intent.
That's why he dredged up all the BS rather than answer the questions.
What does constructive scarring have to do with drilled pockets?
Or don't you know everything about that too?
Its remarkable how much authority can be assumed by one who hides behind anonymity.

You want questions answered; how about answering mine concerning the wearing down of holds before I provide you with another response? How much harder does a route have to become before some remedy becomes justifiable? Or do you just tick routes and say its the next guy's problem?


dangle


Feb 23, 2005, 8:47 AM
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ambler,
if Jones wasn't dishonest why did Mark Pey write on page 27 of that Climbing,"one irate activist, convinced that 5.11d and aid without aiders is good and A1 is evil, saw fit to edit the Park Service guide,'freeing' pitches with a stroke of his red pen."
Didn't Dave say he only "updated" one topo....?

Maybe that pitcher is just a glass...


brianinslc


Feb 23, 2005, 9:15 AM
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In reply to:
Sure ambler, Jones had no ill intent.
That's why he dredged up all the BS rather than answer the questions.
What does constructive scarring have to do with drilled pockets?
Or don't you know everything about that too?
Its remarkable how much authority can be assumed by one who hides behind anonymity.

Ambler ain't that anon. See the cover of Climbing magazine in mid of the mid 70's...(!)...

In reply to:
You want questions answered; how about answering mine concerning the wearing down of holds before I provide you with another response? How much harder does a route have to become before some remedy becomes justifiable? Or do you just tick routes and say its the next guy's problem?

Whew, that's a loaded gun...

Its an interesting question, though. Maybe climbing gyms really do serve another useful function...ha ha.

So, is one solution really to grind holes in the rock (or otherwise artificially enhance features) to preserve a routes difficulty rating? Yikes...

-Brian in SLC


slabbyd


Feb 23, 2005, 9:57 AM
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Some of my finest memories are of the times I've spent in Zion.
The night I spent crammed on a small ledge four pitches up Lunar Ectasy watching the stars and feeling companionship with other climbers headlamps.
The fear I felt approaching Moonlight Buttress in the dark not knowing if I had it in me to solo the route in a day.
A brisk autumn day sussing out the approach to Kolob Canyon.
A campfire with other travelers at Mosquito Flats.
Days spent enjoying the silent beauty of the slot canyons.

What history of climbing I've parssed is from names and dates of first ascensionists recorded in the route log and in guide books.

Both of you, Ron and Dave, have had an indelible mark on that canyon. Ron you picked out some beautiful lines and invested the time and energy so they could support the heavy traffic of people like me. Dave you established climbs that scream out ADVENTURE. While I've yet to climb them, routes like LoveLace continue to motivate me to climb better.

After having read to much of this thread, all I can say, is that it's a good thing for both of you and Zion that your routes form your legacy and not this thread. Ron your original arguements really have no basis after John chimed in and Dave, twenty pages of character debasement, whether they be true or not, reflect poorly on you as well.

If this is the history of Zion, I'm glad it is not recorded, not part of the experience. I'll return many times and be happy to hear the river, enjoy the feel of cool stone in the early morning, revel in the fear of climbing those walls. But I no longer have any desire to understand the egos and personalities of those who paved the way.

Darin - in the sunny PNW

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