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jtt
Jan 25, 2005, 5:29 PM
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Great posts GodsKid. Just the mention of Christianity, brings about many different responses from people, so it is important to remember that the beautiful part of Christianity is not Christians, but Christ.
Also beautiful are the mountains He created. We can all enjoy those.
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mulligan
Jan 25, 2005, 5:41 PM
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So if your faith is what enables you to climb harder grades. Is it you faith that keeps that nut/cam in place if you happen to take a fall or is it the known and proven science that holds the nut/cam in place?
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montafoner
Jan 25, 2005, 5:50 PM
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All you Christians who have posted on this topic seem to have a level head and realize that respecting your neighbors faith is part of the Christian faith (don't judge others, lest you be judged).
Now for my question:
1) Do you support the idea of teaching creationism or "intelligent design" in the classroom?
I think that prostelatizing in the classroom (no matter what faith) is dangerous. What would stop a teacher from saying that a purple dinosaur named Barney took some mud and made all the animals and people we know today? (that sounds strangely familiar).
Being a engineer/scientist, I feel that none of this creationism bull-honky has been verified and can never be verified.
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tangboy
Jan 25, 2005, 5:51 PM
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hmm i love questions like "if God can do anything... can he create a boulder big enough He can't lift it?"
1. if He can't , then He can't do everything (cause He can't create it)
2. if He can, then he can't do everything (cause He can't lift it)
or questions like... "How come God doesn't reveal the ark so that He can prove to everyone Hes real.
1. with absolute proof... there is no need for faith...
2. without faith... there is no need in God...
3. God is based on faith.
anyway its fun to hear peoples different point of views and rants and raves, so go ahead someone, correct me somewhere in my ramblings because its bound to happen.
"Faith = beliefs in something unseen/not proven" - gotta love it!
tang
an edit for montafoner...
well i am a teacher in a private "Christian" school. although i am not a science teacher (unfortunaltey because thats my favorite subject) i do teach Religion class and i do teach my students to see ALL sides of an argument if possible. when i teach Science i do go over evolution, Darwinism, creationism, and present them time to research, explore, and have them come up with their own theories, beliefs, morals. today too many people aren't quite sure of where they stand on a lot of things. they wait for someone to come along and tell them where they stand, or influence them into a stance. you see it everday with teenagers who are trying to find themselves with experimenting with drugs, sex, alcohol etc (yes i did above say i try to let my students experiment and find their own ideals, but there are certain parametors that need to be set, guidance if you will). anyway this is turning into a bunch of mumbo jumbo... taken with a grain of salt im sure :)
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speedywon
Jan 25, 2005, 5:56 PM
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In reply to: 1) Do you support the idea of teaching creationism or "intelligent design" in the classroom? I think that prostelatizing in the classroom (no matter what faith) is dangerous. What would stop a teacher from saying that a purple dinosaur named Barney took some mud and made all the animals and people we know today? (that sounds strangely familiar). Being a engineer/scientist, I feel that none of this creationism bull-honky has been verified and can never be verified.
Keep in mind that creationism and evolution are BOTH theories, meaning that neither has been proven conclusively. An objective scientist will consider the possibilities of both and disregard neither.
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keinangst
Jan 25, 2005, 5:57 PM
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j_ung,
You're right in that the sketchy topout would be an observable trait--but the point of the analogy, apart from shameless use of climbing :D , is to better describe the evangelical mentality--that is, what approach can you take towards people that you know, per your faith, are approaching impending doom?
But to extend the analogy in another manner, it would definitely be harder to convince the little kid that the topout is indeed sketchy, when he's gone through his entire life with people telling him there's nothing to be afraid of. And let's say they're telling him that not from personal experience or observation, but from their own form of faith. "Well, I've never had a hold break when climbing on Coconino sandstone, so all of that stuff about it being chossy is a lie." So, unfortunately, that makes him less likely to listen to you as the minority voice of caution.
Moreover, a core Christian belief would be more to offer him a rope (ie, Jesus) than to try to stop him from what he's doing or condemn him (ie, force him to change his ways). Often that idea is lost when people get hung up on the unfortunate and all-too-common idea of Christians condemning people, or acting in a condescending manner toward non-believers for their behavior.
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atarinaper
Jan 25, 2005, 6:02 PM
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well i have to say that i am very impressed that there is an organization around that does this.
I too am a christian, i believe that being one isnt just being in a religion but a relationship with Christ. I have done alot of stupid stuff throughout my life, and most likely will continue too, as i am a human and am a sinner, but i know that in time of need or just in time of happiness Christ will always be there for me. I met my girlfriend of two years at church, and have met my best friends there.
Good luck with your organization, and if you need some help spreading the word around the SF bay area, id be more than willing to help.
later,
andrew
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fanederhand
Jan 25, 2005, 6:07 PM
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In reply to: 17 pages of flame in the bouldering section?... I doubt it. And didnt you know, the body's much lighter without a soul, sold mine for a hefewezin and bag of jalipino potato chips at the leap last year. Been climbing much better ever sence. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
ah, all you realy did is buy some weights for your soul my freind, the kind that gradually pull you down .... to .....
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studiggity
Jan 25, 2005, 6:15 PM
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First off I just wanted to thank everyone for this topic. It has made me laugh, cringe, and slap my head in disbelief - qualities that I find important in a premium Internet discussion. Now, due to my rather disgruntled/caffeinated mood, I will interject in a far harsher manner than I would ever consider were we speaking face to face.
The idea of creating a group of people dedicated to spreading the word of Jesus Christ via climbing is a large part of why the Christian church is not a positive element of modern society. For a moment, attempt to disregard your religious opinions and let's break down that notion. A group of people who all believe in Christ and happen to enjoy rock-climbing, want to combine their interests in a formal and organized manner. Clearly holding a philosophy close to heart and enjoying a good day on the rock was not enough to satisfy their needs - no - these guys needed to make it official and print t-shirts. Why, would that be?
I see two possible explanations. Perhaps these folks lack the tools, desire, or will to find comfort in their own headspace and need the justification and support of a group to fully enjoy their chosen way of life. In my opinion, that should register as a deeper personal crisis that requires a lot more self-examination than a t-shirt and a membership card could possibly address but to each his own. Now, I am not saying that one should practice his religion in a vacuum - there is a lot of benefit to being a part of a group - BUT I think one must examine how one's group conducts itself and its motivations for doing so.
This climbing group does not sound like it exists for the benefit for its members. T-shirts to me reveal a desire to commercialize the experience - to brand, bottle, and sell your feelings to the people around you. This actually brings me to my larger point and, as I see it, the more likely explanation for the climbers for Christ existence as well as why they are a negative development. They exist because Christians have an unquenchable desire to spread their worldview to others using any mechanism possible. Regardless of what that message is, I see this desire as a major problem.
The problem with the Christian dogma is that undeveloped transmission lies at the very core of the philosophy. The Bible itself focuses a great deal on spreading the word to others but it fails miserably at developing what word it is that people should be spreading. I believe that the reason that Christianity has caught on as well as it has little to do with the meat of the message and more to do with the instructions on how to digest the meat - or more accurately the western interpretation of how to digest the meat. The idea that internalizing the teachings of Christ can be an instantaneous experience that can be passed on to anyone else by anyone who has already had this epiphany make for a tremendously diluted dogma that relies on a poorly informed interpretation of a document (for which the original context has been all but forgotten) to gain any illusion of coherence.
Sure the idea of instantaneous transmission is quite sublime and rife with accessibility and equality but in practice it makes for a religion that is devoid of understanding. Understanding the human condition to a profound enough level to drive your every action in my opinion requires more than a few memorized verses and a strong belief in some guy that lived on the other side of the world 2000 years ago. After reading the Bible a number of times I believe that the very formation of the Christian church was tremendously flawed and has had catastrophic ramifications throughout history.
To make a better argument I am going to take for granted that Jesus Christ is in fact the direct descendant of the creator of the universe and that he had unfetter access to said creator. To me the crux of the problem was Jesus’ tragically short life and inadequate teaching period. Think about it - the man was spreading his message for 3 years. He didn't get his first disciple until he was 30 years old and he was killed at 33. The disciples that he chose were for the most part uneducated laborers prone to mistakes, misunderstanding, and disloyalty right up until the time of his death. Could you honestly understand the key to existence after a mere 3 years of constant study? And these 12 - or 11 of you totally disregard the Judas fiasco - were responsible for devising the entire Christian cannon. Sure I believe that the Son of God could trigger instant understanding in a person but he certainly didn't seem to do anything like that based on the actions taken by the disciples in the gospels. I actually believe that the disciples missed the message of Jesus Christ entirely and have totally fucked up the world as a result.
The modern Church places FAR too much emphasis on what God can DO for YOU and far too little on what YOU can DO for OTHERS. I mean just examine the idea that if you accept Jesus Christ as your savior you can spend eternity with Him in heaven. For Christ's sake, your faith is founded on a desire to save your own ass from eternal damnation! Your "goodness" is driven by the selfish desire to preserve yourself. That's not understanding - that's not compassion - that's not faith - that's bullshit. And you go out to spread the word of God not just to save others from damnation but also to add another tick to your scorecard that you plan to proudly display to St. Peter at the gates.
The Bible chronicles every "miracle" performed by Jesus and his followers. It stems from a desire to wow readers into believing because clearly any man who can perform such feats must hang out with the creator of the universe. Don't you see how fucked up that is? If Christianity actually provides people a mechanism to escape suffering then why cheapen it by cheering over parlor tricks? Either the writer is trying to instill fear in the reader or trying to imply that great powers will be granted to those who believe in the Lord. Why? Because the Christian interpretation of Jesus Christ relies far too heavily on what God can do for you and not enough on the human condition.
Sure there are Christians that have done some wonderful things and there are Christians that have a profound understanding of their faith but there are a whole lot more of them out there that have murdered, raped, destroyed, ostracized, and ridiculed others in the name of their God. Why would you as a thinking person want to be associated with a history like that? Who says that you have to join the cult to study the doctrine? Look at your motivations carefully and examine whom you choose to follow. People of the Christian faith always claim that the evildoers just didn't understand the true meaning of the word and never take responsibility for the overwhelming atrocities committed throughout history by the various deformations of the Christian Church. Jesus man, sack up, take responsibility, and act accordingly - please examine the kool-aid that you are drinking.
Man, Jesus said and did so many solid things that the church does little more than pay lip service to. My personal favorite is how one shouldn't pass judgment. I think that the problem is that people insist on distinguishing on labeling everything "right" and "wrong" or "good" and "evil". If your God created everything then why categorize? Christians believe that their judgment is superior to the judgment of others and that they must right the wrongs of the world. Can't you consider for a second that you just might create more "wrongs" in your attempts to "right." History is filled with people doing just that. This miserable situation we have ourselves involved in over in Iraq right now is a solid example. Salvation is a slippery slope.
So study, believe, have faith, do what you feel is the right thing to do but seriously dig deep and self-evaluate the next time your find yourself rocking a Jesus shirt and spreading the word while I'm trying to send my fucking project.
Thanks for listening,
Stuart
For the record I am not a Christian but I was raised in the American south. I have read the bible a number of times and spent the majority of my 26 years on this earth trying to see whatever it was that everyone who grew up around me seemed to see and I still haven't. At this point, I respect Jesus Christ for what he said and did but honestly He doesn't distinguish Himself above a few dozen other philosophers and prophets that have existed throughout human history, his teachings are not all that unique, and they are very poorly documented.
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keinangst
Jan 25, 2005, 6:24 PM
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Stuart, I will try to answer what I see as the crux of your post with a succinct response.
In reply to: And you go out to spread the word of God not just to save others from damnation but also to add another tick to your scorecard that you plan to proudly display to St. Peter at the gates.
There is no tick list. The debt has been paid, and no amount of good works can add to your chances. That is probably the single element of Christianity that is truly unique from all other major religions.
There is no selfish slant to it. It's just a duty, so please don't take it personally, or take it as holier-than-thou condescension the next time a Christian speaks to you.
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slobmonster
Jan 25, 2005, 6:28 PM
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What did the young mother say to the priest on the beach?
"Excuse me, Father, but you're in my son."
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sarcat
Jan 25, 2005, 6:29 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: 1) Do you support the idea of teaching creationism or "intelligent design" in the classroom? I think that prostelatizing in the classroom (no matter what faith) is dangerous. What would stop a teacher from saying that a purple dinosaur named Barney took some mud and made all the animals and people we know today? (that sounds strangely familiar). Being a engineer/scientist, I feel that none of this creationism bull-honky has been verified and can never be verified. Keep in mind that creationism and evolution are BOTH theories, meaning that neither has been proven conclusively. An objective scientist will consider the possibilities of both and disregard neither.
Is it possible that a higher power than we can comprehend used the process of evolution (Big Bang) as His means of Creationism? Just a thought from a "know-nothing".
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dynosore
Jan 25, 2005, 6:41 PM
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In reply to: Now, do not get me wrong in this. Nowhere am I saying that any of these followers of various denominations are going to hell. What I am saying is that the founders of those faith denominations chose to part from the Catholic Church at some point in history, so they chose through there own free will to ignore some teachings of the Christ.
LOL You might want to look into where all the traditions of the Catholic church really came from. I know Godly and unGodly Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, etc. You can't generalize.
Protestants protested for a reason. It wasn't because the Catholic church was righteous and Christlike. For example, why aren't priests allowed to marry, look up the church reasons, then dig around for the REAL reason. Look it up and get back to me. Then you'll see why rules made by men are useless, and impossible to follow (God wouldn't make a rule like that since he understands the desires of the human heart). Hence all the problems with deviant priests.
They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men Matthew 15:9
If you think you are somehow by default a better follower of Christ by being Catholic you might want to read your Bible a little more and believe what you're told in mass a little less. No one ever got to heaven by attending a certain church.
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keinangst
Jan 25, 2005, 6:51 PM
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dynosore
Good points.
For those less inclined to do extra reading, I'd recommend the movie Luther with Joseph Fiennes. Just came out on DVD, and a pretty good film regardless of religious leanings.
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katanaman
Jan 25, 2005, 6:55 PM
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Well... I am sorry, but I don't think that what you described is a valid climbing practice. It is not fair: if I climb a V9, I have to do it alone, while you to that with Christ helping... not fair. So... either I get the permission of having a friend helping too (for example I could jump on his shoulder and get directly to the good hold) otherwise I believe that Christian should cut their grades by half!
V8 for a pagan = V4 for a Christian
V12 for a pagan = V6 for a Christian
I'll come out soon with a structured proposal for sport grades too.
Sounds just about right...
MOST AMAZING THING EVER!!!!
i will have to use the fact that im not a believer as an excuse!:)
This is going to revelutionize my life, i can get away with anything. THANK YOU MAN, YOU ARE ONE SMART HOMBRE......o by the way I'm looking to sell my soul why don't you check out the ad below if your interested....why don't christians soul collect....man, you would get into "heaven" and have like a gang of minions to do all your worshipping, ur life would be so easy, you could spend all ur time climbing clouds...or whatev....ad below
SOUL FOR SALE
Great condition (hardly used)
Has attended church while young, very eager to become part of someone who cares
Looking for 50can or 75us funds(o.b.o), will consider partial trade for old pair of bouldering shoes
If you act within next 5.2seconds i will give you my soul plus my sense of decency (all in trade for a pair of venoms)
No returns all sales are final!!!!!
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jammer
Jan 25, 2005, 6:56 PM
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I believe that being a Christian is to be Christ Like. This is a personal relationship, an inward change that will bring an outward change that people will see. What has happened to the idea that Jesus had is the fault of man believing that they are personally directed by God to go this way or that way and to hold onto this belief and expand upon it by some personal revalation from God. Sad, but true. If one is to follow the teachings of Jesus, one must live it to a point that people see the Christ Like personallity in you as you go about your daily tasks. This will bring to light the gifts that are bestowed on every believer as found in Romans chapter 12. No one person has all the gifts. Therefore, knowing that I do not have the gift to preach, I do not. Yet, if I decided to live the life that is Christ Like, my actions will preach/teach by themselves. I only need to have an answer to questions about my beliefs when asked, not "thump" people with the Bible or stand in the rock and preach. Man does this, not God.
Keep in mind that people will always battle between good and evil, no matter what you call it. How you live is what people will see, not what you say.
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katanaman
Jan 25, 2005, 6:59 PM
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by the way, that top part about the conversion thing was from another page, im just stupid and didnt use quote....guess i got too excited dam me into oblivion:(
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funk29
Jan 25, 2005, 7:32 PM
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Christ is the Messiah.
"Jehovah Jireh, Baby!"
Matt Barley
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refugee
Jan 25, 2005, 7:33 PM
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I'm really glad that Christianity is joinging together, like amening hands, with the climbing world. It's good for people to associate the climbing experience with another, even better and more powerful experience: the experience of God. That way, I know when I feel good about something I did, it really is just God making me feel good.
There are other things that are good, too. I'm glad the mandate of God steers the decisions in our government and all world politics. It's great that we have the (good) god on our side, and we should not tolerate the (evil) god influencing the "democratic" process that is being built by us in the middle east. Arabs must have secular governments; but because our god is good, I'm glad that he installed his tool in office for another four years.
It feels good to be a values person. As a climber who enjoys our countries most majestic places, I'm glad that I voted for "values" over the environment, social welfare, science, and any type of logical social progress. I'm also glad that we have a president who mocks education on TV--God's teachings are more useful to American society anyway. It's great to have a society where my (and many other) identities gain a sense of pride in being ignorant and not giving a fck about that.
Praise the lord, things are good.
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gluonyou
Jan 25, 2005, 7:42 PM
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The difference being that the slopey, gravelly top out is an observable fact. Let's get this straight, you BELIEVE that there is a slopey, gravelly top out to life. You do not KNOW it to be true. If you knew it as a fact, then you would have no use for faith.
Edit: I don't mean to disparage you in any way, shape or form and I appreciate your sentiment, but extend your analogy... If I'm the six year old, I've heard the slopey, gravelly warning a thousand times already. I've also heard from other sources that it slabs out and gets juggy. I prefer to try for the onsight.
Hey, quick response to this. You make the point that christians believe that there is a slopey, gravely to out to life and we don't know for sure. I would also like to point out that you believe that the topout is good and juggy. You have no fact for this, just faith also. You are going off suggestions from other people that it is good and that it is bad. YOu are choosing to believe that it is good. You have no more evidence than the one who believes it's bad (you don't). However, the one who is bad has this book that says some guy came and died and rose to life (aka climbed that chossy stuff and got hurt, but came back and said that it was bad). Nobody else has come back and said it was good. By sheer rationality it is better to side with the guys who possible came back from life, unless you have other motiviations for wanting to believe otherwise.
Note: this argument leaves out hte claims of other religions as having other people who somehow have foreknowledge of said topout. This is a more complicated discussion but the topic here was the singling out of christainity as being the only faith and others being rational.
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roambb1
Jan 25, 2005, 7:43 PM
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There could be an eternal thread debating various denominations of religion, and for that matter even various denominations of denominations. The truth is that at one point, there was only one person practicing (place your denomination here). After days, months, and years, the human aspect of our pride, and unreconcilled differences, there are now several branches of (place your denomination here). Some Baptists think Catholics are going to hell. Some Catholics think Muslims are going to hell. Some protestants think Mormons are going to hell. And Jehova's Witness thinks everyone else is going to hell. Who is right?
Well, the big problem arises when one person takes the words of Jesus, and adds to them. For example: Jesus plus dunking in a pool for baptism = Babtist, while Jesus + sprinkling = Presbyterian. And today, in both of those organizations are separate divisions who cannot get along. Jesus + anything from one of us starts to get us away from the point. And judge the efforts by their fruit... division. Which power is for division among followers of Jesus?
Jesus was a jew, his disciples were jews. No one , when they first met him was a Christian. That form of religion did not start until a few hundred years later under Constantine. Jesus met people where they were, and patiently let them decide.
Who am I to say that I know your heart. Do I know all the pain and brokenness that you have seen. On my own, out of my need to "earn the Lord's approval", how can I perscribe what is best for you? How can I say what you need to hear. Why do you need to believe exactly what I do so that you can meet Jesus as I have. Did he approach anyone in the same way? Zaccheus, Bartimeaus, the Centurian. All I can do is point to him. I am not responsible for converting you to my way of thinking. Jesus will meet you where you are if you want to know him. Most else that comes from me, is for me. As was posted earlier, the greatest command is to Love God with all your heart (I haven't done that yet) and the next, love your neighbor as yourself (haven't done that either). Seems like I have enough to workl on as it is.
Peace... we are all trying, and on our own, we all fall short. "Christ in me is the hope of glory". The only hope.
BB
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roambb1
Jan 25, 2005, 7:48 PM
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Sorry... Jehova's Witnesses do Not think everyone else is going to hell, only that 144,000 people will be with God. The others just die... I think. Excuse my generalities, all of them. The point of my thread above was peace, and to promote my own brand of religion... "Jesus plus nothing" :wink: .
BB
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joshy8200
Jan 25, 2005, 9:25 PM
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Christianity is not just about the 'when you die are you going to heaven or hell." It is about who the Jesus of Nazereth is and what he does for us. Notice I use present tense for describing this. By FAITH a Christian believes that GOD became incarnate. That is to say the ETERNAL SPIRIT became FLESH in Jesus of Nazereth.
Why did GOD do this? GOD does this because he LOVES us and wants us to be in perfect harmony with us. When Adam and Eve CHOSE to disobey GOD they became seperated from him.
GOD became FLESH so that by FAITH in Jesus of Nazereth's death and ressurection we would have the LIFE that GOD always intended for humans before SIN.
Solid Rock Climbers For Christ talks about giving away all this free gear and meals without any expectation from the receiver. And that is exactly what GOD does for anyone who will except it. By FAITH in GOD incarnate in Jesus GOD gives anyone who will except it ETERNAL LIFE. It is that simple and beautiful. That is the power of the HOLY SPIRIT. Our LIFE is a free gift from GOD and GOD shows us the way to LIFE through Jesus of Nazereth.
Your brother in Christ,
Joshua
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refugee
Jan 25, 2005, 9:37 PM
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if god loves us, then why was he such a bastard in the book of job?
it's real self absorption to continue this god myth...who would have guessed that after 500 years since the enlightenment period, one president and a country falling deeper into the comforts faith provides in steering the direction of one's life (If I pray, then I won't have to work on making myself into a decent human being! It'll just come from thin air!).
2 + 2 = 4
Jesus = a story used for political gain
evolution = truth ; adam and eve = lies that make insecure people feel better by denying their monkey routes.
Too bad so much obvious logic just doesn't mean anything to people anymore. At least everyone has "values". We're really valuable people...just watching any tv show on fox makes that obvious
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healyje
Jan 25, 2005, 10:18 PM
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In reply to: I'm really glad that Christianity is joinging together, like amening hands, with the climbing world. It's good for people to associate the climbing experience with another, even better and more powerful experience: the experience of God.
This type of trash is exactly the problem folks - your emotional self-shelter around a [paternal] god figure may provide you with the illusion of a "better and more powerful experience" than climbing - but I and others view your "experience of God" as simply a group delusion that is a vastly inferior and contaminating experience nowhere near as powerful as the pure climbing experiences alone.
Climbing doesn't need a "boost" from you or your god, thanks; if anything, your organization proves the reverse, that christ tends towards the parasitic. And given you folks claim to have so many better ways to experience god - no doubt all superior to climbing - one can only assume by organizing and making visible presence at our church (the real rock) you are in fact proselytizing in the midst of our [very] worship.
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