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ikefromla
Feb 9, 2005, 10:28 PM
Post #26 of 38
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: I speak for rockclimbing.com and rock climbers in general: Who gives a flyin f--- if routes at the riverside quarry are chipped, glued, or otherwise manually augmented. the whole crag , city , and inland empire is a giant choss pile with little , if any , asthetic value to begin with. the crag would not exist in the first place if it had not been dug out the ground with 40 ton chipping machines. take your stoic ethics elsewhere oldskool.... seconded. Wow. What in ignorant ass you are...Joshua Tree is part of the Inland Empire, Riverside/San Bernardino Counties. San Bernardino County is the largest county in the entire country and as such, has a few not-so-nice areas, but it also contains areas of great historic value, beauty and cultural interest. Redlands is home of the countrys longest running, free outdoor music series at the Redlands Bowl, to name but one tiny example. If you don't like the quarry, and don't care about chipping and/or gluing the routes, then mind your own business and definitely don't assume to speak for me. I AM a rock climber and a part or rc.com. Totally offended, fire_eyes
"Gee how about I take everything personally and post the same pissed-off rant twice in a row? wouldn't that be great?" jeez chill. nobody attacked you personally.
me to God, in Redlands: "oh please lord let there be a clear day and a blue sky, just this once."
God to me in response: "HA! Yeah fuckin right kid! What do you think I am, a miracle worker?"
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oldskool
Feb 9, 2005, 10:37 PM
Post #27 of 38
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ike: wtf your bagging on redlands? are you fucking retarded?
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ikefromla
Feb 9, 2005, 10:55 PM
Post #28 of 38
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Registered: Oct 23, 2002
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derrrr uhhhh i'm a wittle swow.. uummmm wwhat duz wetawded meeen? hehe come on joe, chill out for once man. jesus h christ.
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vincent
Feb 9, 2005, 11:04 PM
Post #29 of 38
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Registered: Oct 1, 2003
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I am RC.com -fire_eyes
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jt512
Feb 10, 2005, 12:50 AM
Post #30 of 38
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In reply to: what about the Borson's wall at Mt. Rubidoux? a mini quarry that was dynamited...sometimes referred to as a roadcut...if i saw someone chipping that, needless to say, i would stop them. what is the difference, oh ethics master, oh great decider of all things relative? pray tell!
The Borson's Wall is an established climbing wall with a long history of climbing located in a public park. It would be unethical to chip there both because it is a public park and because of its climbing history. The Quarry, on the other hand, is on abandoned land, and, except for a hanadful of unremarkable aid routes, was essentially unclimbable due to the abundance of loose rock, until Louie et al invested substantial time and effort into establishing the area as a sport crag. Because of the previous blasting, there was an enormous amount of loose, dangerous rock. In order to make this area usable for recreation, all those loose blocks either had to be pulled off or reinforced with glue. Cleaning and gluing has turned a worthless, abandoned garbage dump into a recreational resource. It is hard to see how this can be a bad thing.
Joe, you have yet to explain why route manufacturing at this quarry is unethical. Just saying it doesn't make it so, nor does arguing that it is unethical in Britain or Rubidoux.
-Jay
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socalbolter
Feb 10, 2005, 1:06 AM
Post #31 of 38
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Joe -
Here ya go:
-- Most routes have seen significant prying off of loose death blocks, flakes, etc. In some people's eyes this is chipping. If so, most routes there are chipped.
-- I define chipping as drilling, carving, sculpting - whatever - a hold where none existed before. By this definition less than 8% of the routes there have chipped holds (whether it's one hold or more), with the most blatant example being a solitary route (established by someone else) in the mid '90s.
-- Most routes (+/- 70 %) there have some glue-reinforced holds. As stated above by JT512, there were so many blasted and loose features that we either needed to pull eveything off and have blank walls or pull off the loose stuff and reinforce the flexing holds.
Slander as much as you want, Joe. The Quarry now offers good climbing and another option for area climbers. Prior to our time and $$$, this was not the case. Sorry if you don't agree.
- Louie
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oldskool
Feb 10, 2005, 2:52 AM
Post #32 of 38
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In reply to: Joe, you have yet to explain why route manufacturing at this quarry is unethical. Just saying it doesn't make it so, nor does arguing that it is unethical in Britain or Rubidoux. -Jay
ethics is never black and white...all climbing scars the rock, even simply placing a cam would have some sort of micro damage on the rock. bolting is more obvious damage; drilling fat holes in the rock, right? that is all debatable. to me, chipping is never acceptable, there is no debate. i have been told there is blatantly chipped holds at the quarry. to me that is vomit. glue is also ridiculous; if you want to manufacture routes, go to a gym, buy this book called the Art of Coursesetting, and have at it. there is my two cents. posit this: when does chipping a quarry become acceptable?
what makes it ok in Rubidoux, and not Britain? there is a small wall that some indians 'quarried' about 600 years ago in Arizona...that wall is now a bouldering wall. chipping/glueing it would be deemed unacceptable by most. what about a wall quarried 200 years ago? still unacceptable probably. 100 years ago? still. 50 years ago? oh, its ok now. go ahead and chip and glue to your hearts content, that wall is a fresh'n. i have never chipped or glued a hold in my life, and i really dont see the need for it.
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oldskool
Feb 10, 2005, 3:01 AM
Post #33 of 38
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In reply to: Joe - ...8% of the routes there have chipped holds ... Slander as much as you want, Joe. The Quarry now offers good climbing and another option for area climbers. Prior to our time and $$$, this was not the case. Sorry if you don't agree. - Louie
ok, how many of the routes did you personally chip holds on?
i dont necessarily not agree...i think that you are perhaps heavy handed when you clean; perhaps you realize you have something of a reputation? i am not just cornering you, either; i ask the same questions of jack marshall. ask him. he admits to what he does.
prior to your time and money? that is very true. i am guessing you put tens of thousands of dollars into route development over the years, if you include gas, etc. There is no doubt you are a prolific developer and a constant one at that. i admire that, and i respect you for that. what distresses me is all the reportage of chipping and excessive glueing that seems to go along w/ your developments. and obviously i dont really matter; the quarry shall go right on ticking. allez.
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jt512
Feb 10, 2005, 3:03 AM
Post #34 of 38
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Registered: Apr 12, 2001
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In reply to: In reply to: Joe, you have yet to explain why route manufacturing at this quarry is unethical. Just saying it doesn't make it so, nor does arguing that it is unethical in Britain or Rubidoux. -Jay to me, chipping is never acceptable, there is no debate.
Again, you merely assert that it is never acceptable, without supporting your assertion. Not very convincing.
In reply to: posit this: when does chipping a quarry become acceptable?
I have already stated one instance: when it allows a useless abandoned garbage dump to become a recreational resource.
-Jay
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oldskool
Feb 10, 2005, 3:03 AM
Post #35 of 38
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oh, and jay? since your not taking my side, i am no longer giving you my totally sweet beta. now you shall suffer! ;)
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jt512
Feb 10, 2005, 3:10 AM
Post #36 of 38
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In reply to: oh, and jay? since your not taking my side, i am no longer giving you my totally sweet beta. now you shall suffer! ;)
Well, then there is no point in my continuing my pathetic efforts at "climbing." Anybody know where I can get a good deal on a set of golf clubs?
-Jay
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socalbolter
Feb 10, 2005, 3:33 AM
Post #37 of 38
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Registered: Mar 27, 2002
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Joe -
You don't ever have to worry about "cornering" me. I'll willingly discuss anything with you (or anyone else).
There are five routes in the Quarry that can be looked at as climbing on predominantly chipped holds. Of these, one of them is mine. Other than that, I have manufactured one or two (literally) holds on perhaps an additional 6 or 7 routes.
In the interest of keeping this completely accurate, I went through the entire route list before posting this. I also used the most common definition (as I stated prior in this thread) to decide what holds were chipped. What is common at the Quarry, Joshua Tree, and other local granite or hard rock crags is the pulling off of loose flakes during the intital route cleaning. Sometimes they pull completely away (clean) from the wall and sometimes they snap off at their point of connection, leaving a clean edge. I do not consider this chipping.
Hope that makes things a little clearer for you and for the others reading this thread.
- Louie
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oldskool
Feb 10, 2005, 4:09 AM
Post #38 of 38
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thanks....'preciate that louie
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