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blown screamer on an ice screw
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michael crowder
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Jan 31, 2005, 3:40 PM
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check my website for a little info on screamers from my perspective along with some links to other information:
http://www.coolclimbing.com/icetips01.htm

i personally would retire the screamer but i have a couple of dozen lying around so i will never run short. i use a screamer on every single piece of ice protection placed. i have been ice climbing for 25 plus years and took my first lead fall about three years ago. i ripped out every piece of pro i had placed on the way to the ground but only after ripping all the tacks on the screamers that i had them clipped with.

the fall went like this.... fall, rope tightens, screamer starts ripping, almost stop, pro pulls, fall, rope tightens, screamer starts ripping, almost stop, pro pulls, fall, rope tighten, screamer starts ripping, almost stop, pro pulls, hit ground. i landed on my ice axe which poked a hole in my goretex coat, fleece jacket, underwear, and just barely scratched the surface of my skin between two of my ribs. had i hit the ground any harder i would have had a punctured lung. did the screamers help? they probably saved my life. witnesses said that everytime i loaded a piece of gear it would slow me almost to a stop before it blew. when the last piece caught me i was only about 6 feet off the ground and i almost came to a complete stop before it ripped. therefore it was only the equivelent of a short bouldering fall when i impacted the ground.

the reason for the fall was 25 years of experience and overconfidence. i assumed i could climb anything and get away with it because i had never fallen in 20 plus years of ice climbing. don't flame someone because they have only been ice climbing for three years when they fell. amount of experience is not an important factor in this case. in my deal i didn't fall because i could not hold on. the ice desentegrated on me because i was trying to get one more climb in on a day when the temps were in the high 40's, it was actively raining and the ice was thin to begin with. i knew it was risky but thought the risk was worth the reward. in the same situation i would probably do the same thing over again. in fact i have and continue to get away with it. might pay for it next time but thems the risks. i would say continue to use the screamer until you can replace it and do that as soon as possible. private message me and tell me where this place is so i can go chop on it a little.
michael
http://www.coolclimbing.com


sandbag


Jan 31, 2005, 4:17 PM
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Thanks Michael for the info and cool site!@


threadkilla


Jan 31, 2005, 5:55 PM
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Re: blown screamer on an ice screw [In reply to]
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There are some real gems in this thread (tounge in cheek). I took a leader fall on ice once. I was traversing and was about 8 ft. above and 8 ft. out from a screw. I made the obvious mistake of planting a tool too close to the other one. The whole section dinnerplated and I fell. Luckily I pendulumed across a slightly lower angled section, didn't hook anything and wasn't hurt at all. I got off easy. I learned that sometimes it's easier to take things head on, rather than to avoid the difficlties.

Nice work Glyrocks. Thanks for posting the photos, I've never seen a blown screamer and it's nice to know that sometimes things work the way they're supposed to.

And michael crowder, great post and great advice here and in the peru thread. Also nice website, thanks for the link. Only 40 posts?


glyrocks


Jan 31, 2005, 7:08 PM
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Re: blown screamer on an ice screw [In reply to]
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I think it still takes a 2kN force to re-activate and/or continue to rip it, but not certain. I've asked Yates and haven't gotten a reply. Crowder may know the answer to that... And yea, I would want total confidence- or at least as close to it as I can get-- which I why I plan on replacing it, but also to use a semi-blown screamer instead of a static runner.

In reply to:
"The sewn runners are sewn in one spot an tested to 22Kn. the screamers are a load reducing unit, sewn in series, designed to deploy under duress, ie they begin to lessen the acceleration due to gravity by interupting your fall.

I know how they work; the question is how safe they are to use after they've started to work. Yates says they are still full-strength runners once blown. The fact that Screamers decrease the acceleration of the fall is irrelevent to how strong they are after they have ripped. I don't think the thread that rips is sewn in a matter that compromises the strength of the 'normal' runner. It may , but regardless, Yates still rates blown screamers at full strength. Hm, so I guess that answers my question. Do you have a relevent argument against that? You haven't presented a single consistent, relevent point- other than to call me a dumbass or course. So, please, if you have one I'd like to hear it.

In reply to:
For those who think the entire purpose of the original post is to ask if the screamer should be reused... I call bullsh!t. Otherwise, the post would have been as simple as, "I fell on a sreamer the other day and it partially deployed, should I keep using it?"

Nope, I didn't say that was entire purpose. I said this:

In reply to:
The purpose of the thread was clearly to state that screws and screamers can hold falls, not that it is a good idea to fall or that I'm a badass. The only input I asked for was concerning the screamer...

In reply to:
No, a shorty and a screamer and a new rope and a dynamic belay, yada yada yada, held a fall in this one particular instance.

That would be part of the reason I explained the circumstances. I don't want a "noob" getting the wrong idea.

I know, there is a difference in boldness and ignorance. I also know you can't tell the difference in what was bold or ignorant for me to do across the world wide web.

Michael- Yea I used to check your page for condition reports while sitting through stats. Read through most of it, which explains the B in stats. I haven't looked through your guidebook too much yet though. I thumbed through the WV stuff one weekend while I was in Fayettville looking for ice, but it was way to warm to climb any.


michael crowder
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Feb 1, 2005, 6:53 AM
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threadkilla,
yea just 40 posts. i have another bbs i post to regularly and i have to get some work done occasionally. i usually just wander over here when i have ulterior motives or just want to slum a little. ;-)

glyrocks,
i have talked to john several times about his products. they activate at 500 to 550 lbs. that is the range that his testing has shown to do the most effective job. while i am not 100% sure of this i believe that the activation range across the entire working area of the screamer remains at 500 to 550 lbs. the sewing method is consistent across the entire sling. the reason some screamers do not blow all the way is that at some point the force of the fall comes below that range. i believe that a partially blown screamer will reactivate at the same force you just wont have as much room for the sreamer to run. my advise is still to keep using it until you can replace it. as soon as possible replace all of your draws with screamers for ice climbing purposes. one of the reasons for the 500+ lb. activation force is that it allows you to load your piece with body weight and not blow tacks. some of the early models had the same main working weight but had additiional starter tacks that blew between 200 and 250 lbs. these tacks held the wings in place in addition to the lycra sheath. the problem was that these lower force tacks would blow under body weight and kinda freak you out.

i hae never been a big fan of the ice scream cause i seem to have to use my teeth to get it open enough to go around a screw. for girth hitching screws and for slinging all of my spectres i use scream aids. i like the scream aids a lot. john makes a special screamer for me that i call the southern scream. it is a standard shorty screamer with a big loop sewn on one end for girth hitching stuff. john is real good about custom making stuff. he has made me twelve foot aiders out of the super stiff scuba webbing and other strange things. you come up with an idea and he will make it for you.
michael


lame_name


Feb 2, 2005, 4:53 PM
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Re: blown screamer on an ice screw [In reply to]
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There are alot of ass-holes on this website.....
I just think everyone needs to let off just alittle bit. Especially the bone head who posted saying the picture was staged. Nice first post buddy!


This is a bit of a hypocritical rant there, post counter. My time is spent in places of more significance to me than here.

Look a little closer and you will see that i merely poked lightly at the staging possibility; the first pic is from above, the second below - were there 2 photographers to catch this gnar gnar?
(*@!Attention - I'm only wondering, not accusing&%$) I personally would probably forget about the viewfinder if my partner was falling so I could best assess mechanism of injury if one were to occur, but having the shot certainly is nice for the album.

I don't think climbing ice expecting to fall is anything I will engage in. Prepared to, but not expecting to. I've been on too many rescues, carried too many dead people out, had too many friends die in the mountains (including ice climbing), and seen enough carnage in my years of being an EMT to feel like the attitude presented is something I would not condone.
To each his own, though. Piss on that if you dare, mr. nomoreassholes.


oldfart


Feb 2, 2005, 7:09 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
There are alot of ass-holes on this website.....
I just think everyone needs to let off just alittle bit. Especially the bone head who posted saying the picture was staged. Nice first post buddy!


This is a bit of a hypocritical rant there, post counter. My time is spent in places of more significance to me than here.

Look a little closer and you will see that i merely poked lightly at the staging possibility; the first pic is from above, the second below - were there 2 photographers to catch this gnar gnar?
(*@!Attention - I'm only wondering, not accusing&%$) I personally would probably forget about the viewfinder if my partner was falling so I could best assess mechanism of injury if one were to occur, but having the shot certainly is nice for the album.

I don't think climbing ice expecting to fall is anything I will engage in. Prepared to, but not expecting to. I've been on too many rescues, carried too many dead people out, had too many friends die in the mountains (including ice climbing), and seen enough carnage in my years of being an EMT to feel like the attitude presented is something I would not condone.
To each his own, though. Piss on that if you dare, mr. nomoreassholes.

I'm pretty sure no one is asking you to engage in anything.
Pretty sure no one asked you to condone anything either.
With that in mind, were the dead guys and carnage brought up to demonstrate a point, or how experienced and cool you are?
If it was to demonstrate a point, see above.


rendog


Feb 2, 2005, 7:58 PM
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glyrocks

this is just me and my ass*ole (opinion)

I wouldn't use it again unless it was to hold up a picture. these guys can argue, throw numbers and smack around till the cows come home for all I care, It comes down to this in my mind:

a screamer is designed to work when it is whole. full stitching, and all that. If I were to blow out the top 1/3rd of one of my screamers, it would be retired and that would be the end of it. It would get hung up on the wall along with my cracked helmet from rockfall, my #6 nut with the cable frayed from holding a hugeass fall over an edge (a stoopid placement don't get me started any of you), and any of the other gear that has saved my life over the years.

I know it sux retiring gear when they're not completely gone, but IMHO it's better to be safe than sorry. Plus when you think about it...they';re not all that expensive


glyrocks


Feb 2, 2005, 8:49 PM
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Yea, that's a good point; they are designed to work as a full unit. But, I think it is still better than a regular runner. According to the manufacturer's specifications, it should not fail under the load created by a normal fall. It should only help reduce the load, even if it will not reduce the load as much as a new one. I'd really like to hear back from Yates on this...

Michael: If you're still looking, do you have a problem with Ice Screams on any particular brand/screw or all of them? Does the loop not pull easy enough? Just curious on the specifics with your problems with it.

P.S. expressing an opinion doesn't necessitate being an asshole, though some of y'all just can't seem to do it without being one.


slobmonster


Feb 2, 2005, 9:19 PM
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In reply to:
...they are designed to work as a full unit. But, I think it is still better than a regular runner.
Exactly.

I am in agreement with Rendog on this one, mind you. I have hanging in the garage the two Screamers I blew in one fall on ice several years ago. No, I have not put them on my rack as full-length runners... though if in a pinch I would feel fine doing so.

Load-limiting slings are a fine addition to your rack. You have direct experience of this. If you're broke, and simply must climb some more pitches, then by all means bring your schmeezed Screamer along, just as proof of insurance (if nothing else).

Why did you fall to begin with?


sandbag


Feb 2, 2005, 11:14 PM
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In reply to:

P.S. expressing an opinion doesn't necessitate being an asshole, though some of y'all just can't seem to do it without being one.

Pot, hi there. Kettle here! How th Fuck are you!?!?!?!
:wink:


healyje


Feb 2, 2005, 11:31 PM
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I've blown a bunch of air voyagers and screamers over the years - there is no problem using them down to the bone. You just have to be aware that if in the process of blowing if you hit that last stitch the load will jump back up some. I still use them with 1/2 and a 1/3 left. I do put a wrap and a half of sport tape, the top off which lines up with the first stitch that's left.

Never been a problem and that's how they are made to be used. These aren't rocket science or some sort of exotic deal - it's just a bunch of stitching designed to blow - it is sewn consistently down the length of the stitch and any part is as good as another...


glyrocks


Feb 3, 2005, 8:10 AM
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Haha, maybe so sandbag, maybe so. Probably should have said "some of us..."


sandbag


Feb 5, 2005, 8:56 PM
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Haha, maybe so sandbag, maybe so. Probably should have said "some of us..."

;)

its all good.

CLimb On!


headwaters


Feb 6, 2005, 8:10 PM
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I can't believe I actually recognized the climb. I went up there the next day to check it out and saw some fresh tracks. BTW, did you leave any anchors???? Found some booty. Looks like there's other nice stuff up there too. Bouldered the little (15-18') flow up the hill to these climb's left. I'm glad I can still count on my memory.


glyrocks


Feb 8, 2005, 8:08 AM
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Huh, that's cool I guess. I'll send you a message here in a minute.


cincysam


Feb 14, 2005, 1:45 PM
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BTW, Michael's Guidebook is great! Just got it a week or two ago (Southern Fried Ice)

s.

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