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healyje
Nov 13, 2005, 12:52 AM
Post #26 of 31
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Registered: Aug 22, 2004
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In reply to: I've also had anchors with no pieces. Even held seconds falls on them. The concept of the Stance seems to have been lost. At one time the idea was to set yourself up so that only the most extreme fall would weight the anchor. It's still good practice to set yourself up that way. Even on a bald and sloping J Tree summit you can usually find a divot to place your feet or butt so that it would take a high factor fall to even come close to weighting the anchor. And if you are a reasonably attentive belayer, that ain't gonna happen. (that's no excuse for geting sloppy with your anchors! :evil: ) Belaying a leader on multi pitch wiht bad anchors, that's another much more gripping story. (just keep reminding him not to fall in as calming a manner as possible!!!! :shock: )
Just wanted to rate and bump this post as he has a point that should really be read twice by the younger crew here. My father was United pilot and once, while deconstructing a recent DC-10 crash that lost an engine on takeoff at ORD, he said that the plane stalled due to a lack of engine thrust and that an older flight crew who learned in single engine planes would have simply given it the juice, gone around, and done an emergency landing. He said in WWII in single engine planes the rule was if you have any trouble of any kind give it the gas and get some altitude between you and the ground so you have more time to work out whatever problem you have. The flight crew in the crash were younger and learned in twin engine planes, never worring as much about not having power, and never developed that imperative response of jamming on the juice in an emergency.
The imperative of being able to establish a solid stance as a belaying skill when multi-pitch anchors were made up solely of nuts and hexs simply can't be overstated. We tended to treat many our anchors the same way as our pro - as a backup in case we couldn't stop a fall with our stance. And actually, "establishing" a solid stance that allows you to not rely on the anchor to stop a big fall can be just as creative a skill and technical exercise as placing pro. At every belay I still attempt to establish a stance that will allow me to catch a fall without relying on the anchor or weighting it as minimally as possible. Just like the difference in older and younger pilots, with the advent of the widespread use of bolted anchors this skill of "stance" has largely been lost. As the tradster points out it can be quite a subtle art and a small divot can make all the difference between holding a fall and not. Again, for most it will never matter, but like that DC-10 crash you can bet that lack of a solid and appropriate stance still plays a contributing, if largely unexamined, role in some accidents each year.
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rgold
Nov 15, 2005, 5:40 AM
Post #27 of 31
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Registered: Dec 3, 2002
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I learned to climb before anchors were mandatory. As the other old folk have mentioned, we learned how to assume strong stances. In those bygone years, I and everyone else I knew gave countless unanchored upper belays and held numerous falls.
It is true that nowadays, the anchor has become virtually the entire belay. On steep routes with hanging or semi-hanging belays, this is, of course, unavoidable. But there are many routes and situations where a braced belay will keep all loads off the anchor. I see people setting up essentially hanging belays at such stances all the time. I do it myself a lot of the time.
A number of years ago I was at the top of a steep route in the Gunks when I heard a commotion below. A leader had run it out a horrifying distance and was pumping out, looking at a long fall that would finish with a pendulum into a corner. He saw me peering over the edge and screamed for a rope. I could see from the way his elbows had come up and by the way his hands were "pedaling" on the holds that there wasn't much time. I could also see that there was a perfect old-fashioned belay stance available, so I sat down, undid the rope coil I was carrying, tied a knot in the end, clipped a biner to the knot, draped the rope around me in a hip belay and lowered the end to the distressed leader twenty feet below. He clipped in with his last reserves and fell off immediately, swinging slightly out from the gently overhanging face. After a bit of a rest and with a lot of tension, he climbed the remaining twenty feet and all was well.
If I had tried to rig a three-piece anchor with cordelette and attach and thread an ATC, the only purpose would have been to administer either first aid or, more likely, last rites. Since I'm really not well-qualified for either of those tasks, I'm glad my ancient skills, now a lost art, were available for their last hurrah.
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paulraphael
Nov 15, 2005, 6:08 AM
Post #28 of 31
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Registered: Feb 6, 2004
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In the alpine world strong stances are alive and well. they have to be ... it can be hard to find anchors you'd bet the farm on much of the time.
when the rock is good, i go for the the textbook bombproof anchor and will often bring up the 2nd on a munter or autoblock (so i can relax a bit, eat, drink, etc.). otherwise, the anchors are for backup, or wishful thinking, and my legs, shoulder or ass get ready for the second's weight.
i think this is an important skill, but i also think it's unsafe to make a habit of forgoing bombproof anchors without good reason. there will be times when the anchor is the only thing between you and your partner and oblivion-- rockfall, avalanches, and less-than-solid pro right off the belay are just a few examples.
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tim
Nov 15, 2005, 6:47 AM
Post #29 of 31
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Registered: Apr 4, 2002
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In reply to: During a particularly sketchy ski decent my friend and I roped up. ... The rest of the decent looked easy enough so I said "clean that anchor and let's get out of here." He preceded to grab the equalization point and pull the whole rig out of the rock in a shower of limestone. I looked at him horrified and he said: "it was mostly for show, I didn't want to freak you out."
That's fucking awesome! Handful of guesses...
Red Slate?
Hurd Peak?
Checkered Demon?
I'm interested to hear what you were descending. The thought of belaying off of some of the rock on the ski descents I have done scares me worse than falling on the descent... well, almost.
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tim
Nov 15, 2005, 6:57 AM
Post #30 of 31
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Registered: Apr 4, 2002
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nb. this is a great thread. It has proven educational as well as engrossing to me, and I routinely hip belay the second when there's nothing better around and they're coming up fast. Generally speaking I figure it's better to have a quick hip belay and be able to drag in a ton of slack fast, than to have an absolute lockoff where the person is liable to smack some terrain before the rope comes tight.
Belaying the leader off a stance is pretty bold. rgold and the other old schoolers (who are not dead schoolers, oddly enough) have my respect!
I've had a stacked nut blow out of a constriction in shitty rock, but that was one of 3 pieces and the others took up the slack. I have eyed some shifty anchors with much concern, but that's the only piece I can ever recall blowing in an anchor.
A handful of pieces have blown on me elsewhere, and I've had to rely on plenty more that would almost certainly have blown if I had fallen. Better than nothing, but only slightly. That's on lead where the only person who suffers the consequences of a bad decision is me. I try not to fuck around with the anchor, since it's someone else's life, not just mine. If I am putting one in, I hang off of it first. If you have to trust my placements, you can be damn sure that I'll trust them first. I see that as common courtesy...
I wish my shoulder would heal up. I'm really starting to miss climbing now.
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coldclimb
Nov 15, 2005, 7:29 AM
Post #31 of 31
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Registered: Jan 14, 2002
Posts: 6909
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You old guys definitely have a valid point. I've never had any real experience with a stance belay, unless you count working on metal roofs in the winter, but it's definitely a valuable bit of experience to have. Thanks for the stories and tips, and hats off to you for being here to tell us! ;)
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