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rockfax
Feb 9, 2005, 4:12 PM
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In the late 90's Climbing mag had a front cover of Rikki Ishoy. It was a very sexy image, she was wearing a bikini top and shorts, it was a tight close-up shot (basically of her breasts), there was very little rock in view, she was 2 inches off the ground, it wasn't a ground-breaking ascent and the pic had no realtion to any of the mags features or news items.
It was quite clearly aimed at persuading the testosterone climber (the majority in the climbing world) to purchase the magazine. Nothing new in that, especially in the mainstream media.
Since then (and a little before) there has a been a stream of sexy images of women climbers in the climbing magazines, both on covers and in the photo galleries.
Climbing companies like Red Chilli and more recently Blurr feature women in various states of undress and in several different contexts. You might have seen some of them.
What do women think of these images? I'm not talking about a pic of Beth Rodden or Steph Davis doing a free ascent of somebig wall, which is sexy enough in itself on a number of levels, but the pics of attractive women, sometimes climbers, sometimes models, that are used in adverts often portraying roles that could be interpreted as being subserviant to their male masters!
Are they appropriate, are women being used, do you care, do you like them, do they (OMG) empower women or just use women as marketing objects? Perhaps a combination....of all these.
Best Regards,
Mick
(Ryan)
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kimmyt
Feb 9, 2005, 4:37 PM
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Show me an example of one of these advertisements and I'll comment....I don't read climbing magazines, and when I do I rarely even glance at the ads, so I can't think of any ads like you've described off the top of my head.
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tavs
Feb 9, 2005, 5:04 PM
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The pics in the mags (not ads)--I can't say that I've noticed as many of these (ones where the rock/climbing itself is so marginalized) recently. I do have a funny, slightly off topic story about one though. There was a cover of R&I a while back with a female climber climbing at the Big Bend boulders near Moab, tiny sports bra and short-shorts, climbing at what I know is fairly well below her limit (I know the chica, she climbs way harder than me, I flashed the problem). The climbing position was her way stretched out, legs spread (almost like a stem position). Anyway, some friends and I recreated the shot recently--my friend Chris (male) wore my sports bra and shorts and we took some posed shots. Haven't done it yet, but we've though about sending them in to R&I. When these kinds of photos do appear, well, I can't say that I'm too bothered by them--there are often similar-style male pics as well, you know, the guy with his shirt off and muscles bulging as he mimes the sequence to a problem or even just stands smiling for the camera. I won't say they don't bother me at all, but it's not a huge deal.
Now as for the ads, like the Red Chili and Blurr ones. These do bother me and I think your post has led me to figure out exactly why. We see these kinds of ads all the time, but it seems that usually--with cars, beer, etc--there's a clear tactic: advertisers are aiming for their target demographic, which they see as overwhelmingly male and thus they (try to) appeal to that target group. What bothers me most, I suppose, with the climbing ads is the implication that they see their target audience as MEN. In light of the other thread about the increase in women climbers (and if we use a broad definition of "climber" here, given that many gym-rats read the mags and buy the shoes and clothes, the numbers of women seem even higher), that idea--that these companies see men as their target audience--is what ticks me off...more so than just the ads themselves, which, to be frank, I think I'm mostly numb to at this point.
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maculated
Feb 9, 2005, 5:46 PM
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I helped teach a course that involved women in advertising last year. Go to the grocery store and check out the rack. Cosmo, Maxim, Shape, Stuff - what's the difference? HEck if I can tell. All of them have impossibly beautiful women on the cover.
Men like looking at beautiful women. So do women.
No one said anything about empowerment. In fact, if you splash a bunch of women up inordinately, something seems wrong about that to me. Back a few years when my partner bought your Bishop bouldering guide, I looked at the cover and went, "Weird! All the photos are of women!" I didn't feel particularly empowered by that, considering the main target audience is men. It's all in the target you use to attract buyers. Not saying you're being chauvinistic, but that's what I thought when I saw it.
Here's a secret: Women like to compare themselves. It explains the sometimes competitive nature of woman-woman relationships. Women are our competitors. Women are also our inspiration.
Men like women cuz, well . . . those are some mighty sexy women. It works out.
So . . . those hotty ads are doing the same thing - it's not rocket science. The only reason we notice the change is because we're used to the male-dominated advertising that is not sexual. Times are a changing - sex sells. Even when it's just a silly rubber shoe.
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iamthewallress
Feb 9, 2005, 6:34 PM
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I don't mind to see the occasional picture of a climber that is being published solely because the subject is a hottie...so long as there are some boys in the mix and pictures primarily highlighting women's boobs don't get more press than pictures primarily highlighting women's accomplishments.
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clausti
Feb 9, 2005, 11:23 PM
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In reply to: The . What bothers me most, I suppose, with the climbing ads is the implication that they see their target audience as MEN.
I'll totally agree to that. Furthermore, I will add this: I have never seen, that I knew of or recognized, a Red Chilli product [they sell shoes?] but I know the company exsists, because I hate their stupid adds.
like the one of the girl in the black dress with a slit up to her hip with her foot on the wall opposite her in a hallway. not wearing climbing shoes, i might add.
wft? is she seducing him becuase he climbs? because she wants his stuff? because his stuff makes him climb so hard that hes sexy?
I think the adds might appeal to the men; I coudlnt honestly say, though I'll admit that as a possibility. But the fact that they only try to appeal to men does offend me. Why would I buy their product when I'm not even considered by them as worth mention as a climber? uhh no. I wouldn't.
the climbing pics, of actual climbers climbing, other other hand, NOT models. hell yeah, those are sexy. I don't really care that much.... I think they guys are sexy too. and they should keep putting shots of *both* kinds in. of *climbers*.
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tavs
Feb 9, 2005, 11:36 PM
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[quote="maculated"]
Here's a secret: Women like to compare themselves. It explains the sometimes competitive nature of woman-woman relationships. Women are our competitors. Women are also our inspiration.
In reply to: In general, I agree. And I'm hyper-competitive--usually within myself (I always want to do better than last time) but definitely, (mostly secret) competition with other women happens. So when you see the Cosmo cover, you might think "Hmmm, wonder if there's anything in here that can get me to look like her." But when I'm looking at a climbing mag, I'm comparing myself to the women climbing. Which is why those Red Chili ads seem to have absolutely nothing to do with me--whereas in other situations, the sexy pics of women both inspire me and make me want to be better than the subject of the photo, the women in those ads are just so outside the box of competition as to be irrelevant. And if I do think anything at all, it's "gee, does that woman even climb?" They are just so clearly targeted to men. Whether that targeting is justified or makes good marketing sense, of course, brings us back to the question of just how many women are out there climbing, which I think we've shown to be highly variable by location and completely undetermined. [BTW, off-topic--I've actually heard really great things about Red Chili shoes in general and I've got a pair of uber-comfy, built for rock routes in the Tetons shoes of theirs that I love.]
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kellie
Feb 10, 2005, 12:51 AM
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I love photos. I love that photo of John Varco doing the double-fist-head stack on the wide crack in Zion where he looks like he’s about to have an aneurysm, I love the photo of Ari Menitove doing some bizarre feet-over-head Levittation-looking thingey on Cat Wall in Indian Creek, I love the photo of the Huber boys in their long-haired leather-pantsed glory in front of El Cap, because they’re hot and because it totally cracks me up.
I love the one of Heidi Wirtz and Vera Shulte-whatever-her-last-name-is in El Cap meadow after setting their new speed records, shirtless in front of El Cap in a pose reminiscent of the Hubers (only with arms crossed over their chests). I love the photo of Steph Davis in her green helmet with the big 70s daisies all over it leading 5.11 on a first ascent in Pakistan. I loved the photos of Rachel Babkirk in R&I (or was it Climbing?) a few years back leading 5.12 trad at NRG that caused all those guys to write letters in saying how they wanted to marry her.
The thing about “sexy” photos is that all too often it seems the choice is made to sacrifice being a great photo for being a sexy photo. Several of us (male and female) were looking at this year’s Women of Climbing calendar last week, and we agreed they’re just extremely unremarkable photos, except for the fact that there are women in tiny little tops in them. They were just kind of boring.
So yeah, I’m all in favor of sexy photos (of both genders), but they also need to be *good* photos. There needs to be something more interesting about them than cleavage or nice abs.
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climberterp
Feb 10, 2005, 1:31 AM
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Sexy pictures of actual climbing are great, whether they be of male or female climbers. Equal opportunity ogling is important to me, and there definitely aren't enough shirtless men in my life :lol:
However, sexy pics of faux climbing, or ads that use sexed up images of women that have nothing to do w/climbing bother me. I'm all for celebrating the female form--hell, the human form in general--but I'd rather see pics that capture bodies being used than bodies just standing around looking alluring. And I wouldn't buy from a company that tried to sell with those tactics.
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timstich
Feb 10, 2005, 1:50 AM
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In reply to: ...Furthermore, I will add this: I have never seen, that I knew of or recognized, a Red Chilli product [they sell shoes?] but I know the company exsists, because I hate their stupid adds.
Oh man, are those stupid ads! They look like Calvin Cline spots. Frankly, if you are going to show women climbing in ads, keep the dirt and sweat. One of my favorite pictures of a female friend of mine that I took is her on the grass in a dirty sports bra eating a can of cold spaghetti-ohs in the sun. This is the same girl I observed wiping a huge booger on her shirt in front of me in the middle of a conversation.
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shorty
Feb 10, 2005, 2:02 AM
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In reply to: ...there has a been a stream of sexy images of women climbers in the climbing magazines, both on covers and in the photo galleries.
Gol' durnit, some of our forefathers were the Puritan trash sixth in line from daddy's inheritance that couldn't make it in European society. So they packed their meager belongings and sailed to the New World to escape these sinful temptations of the body.
And here were are in America -- where Rambo-style movies earn that well-deserved PG rating for a nice family outing. And a little bare skin here and there draws an R rating. If only the burka would come back into fashion, America would surely gain the respect of all the durned foreign countries. Well, that and a few well-placed Tomahawk missiles, backed up by some M1 Abrams tanks and Cobra choppers.
OK, so (almost) enough of the sarcasm.
What I find so interesting in North American versus European attitudes is the way our cultures view sex versus violence. By European standards, the pictures Mick discusses are very, very tame. But they're almost scandalous here in the States. I really wonder which continent has the more healthy approach.
After a decade of work in television, I guess I just don't get very worked up any more by who (male or female) bares what to promote a product. IMO, advertising follows -- rather than leads -- societal trends. As stated in earlier posts, there are far more revealing shots in non-climbing publications.
So, as a dude, what point am I trying to make in the women's forum? Not much of one, really. I'm just hoping that next year's Super Bowl ads are a generally more innovative. Oh yeah, and I liked Rikki Ishoy's cover shot. But I also wasn't offended by Christian Griffith's banana-hammock climbing shot in another climbing magazine. Last I checked, women have eyes, too.
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jt512
Feb 10, 2005, 2:29 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: ...Furthermore, I will add this: I have never seen, that I knew of or recognized, a Red Chilli product [they sell shoes?] but I know the company exsists, because I hate their stupid adds. Oh man, are those stupid ads! They look like Calvin Cline spots. Frankly, if you are going to show women climbing in ads, keep the dirt and sweat. One of my favorite pictures of a female friend of mine that I took is her on the grass in a dirty sports bra eating a can of cold spaghetti-ohs in the sun. This is the same girl I observed wiping a huge booger on her shirt in front of me in the middle of a conversation.
Well, it's clear why Tim is not the photo editor of a climbing magazine.
-Jay
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timstich
Feb 10, 2005, 3:08 AM
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In reply to: Well, it's clear why Tim is not the photo editor of a climbing magazine. -Jay
The boogers were well mixed in with the mud smudges. Ha ha ha! Actually, I think she wiped her nose on the shirt, hence its removal.
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clausti
Feb 10, 2005, 3:14 AM
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yeah.
i refuse to put a lot of effort into interpreting ads. if its not immediately obvios to me, too bad. lol.
the picture of those two chicks infront of whatever big wall they'd just gotton the speed record to with their arms crossed in front of their chests... i think i remember that one.
IT FREAKING ROCKED.
sorry. I appreciate the female form's aesthetic value. I also appreicate being shown things I can aspire to [hardass female climbers], and I benefit from getting my "its too reachy!" complaint shot out of the sky.
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wonderwoman
Feb 10, 2005, 5:41 PM
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Those red chili adds are pretty stupid. but I do remember there was one add that had a woman doing a dyno for a 'hot' man on one side and vice-versa on the other. I guess it's equal opportunity.
And what about all the bruises on these climbers? Dp they airbrush them out? Maybe it's because of my pasty-white complexion, but I have bruises and scrapes all over the place. That ain't so sexy!
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fern
Feb 10, 2005, 6:28 PM
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I'm guessing that the Blurr ad that mick refers to is the recent one with Lisa Dumper dressed up in motorcycle leathers with another woman reaching around her from behind and sticking a hand down her pants. Nothing to do with climbing, nor 'appreciation of the aethetics of a fit body' or anything like that - just a provocative image. But then - blurr gear doesn't have much to do with climbing either, it's just clothing and backpacks. The ad made me laugh a little, but it stuck in my mind and I know what they are selling - so I guess it was a success.
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naw
Feb 11, 2005, 1:48 PM
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Those red chili ads seem to me like another example of an advertising trend marketed towards the ultra-cool "urban" climbers. You know, the metrosexual climbers...the guys who want to style their hair, drive cool, fast, italian sports cars and shred 5.14 before heading out to the club to break it down (I guess the electric slide or something...I don't dance). Anyway, I think they're moronic and if that anorexic goth-chick took my shoes I'd call the police.
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acacongua
Feb 14, 2005, 6:39 PM
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I rarely have time to read this mags (and I hope this doesn't disqualify my comments because I do climb a lot) so I wonder if the mags advertise eye candy for the ladies too? What I am saying, don't just pay attention to the sexual display of women, but of men as well.
What's reality and what's sad reality is that sex sells in America and many other parts of the world. Hell, I saw a commercial where sexual images were used to sell spark plugs! Marketers and advertisers know that appealing to prurient interest of people will roll in the money and in the end, it's money that matters more than integrity or dignity.
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bustloose
Feb 14, 2005, 8:34 PM
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In reply to: Those red chili ads seem to me like another example of an advertising trend marketed towards the ultra-cool "urban" climbers. You know, the metrosexual climbers...the guys who want to style their hair, drive cool, fast, italian sports cars and shred 5.14 before heading out to the club to break it down (I guess the electric slide or something...I don't dance). Anyway, I think they're moronic and if that anorexic goth-chick took my shoes I'd call the police.
That's hilarious. Go rent 'The Real Thing', shot in '96, it has ALL the peices of the puzzle that you have just mentioned, funny that you think this is s new 'trend'
as for the topic at hand. I have issues with gratuitous 'hot women' in climbing photos. a few years ago the 'women of climbing' calendar had a picture of a model, in a gym. very sad. but i'm sure they started to sell more copies.
the red chili ads i have no problem with, they're a bit odd, but i don't find them offensive.
the Blurr ads are just plain odd. best guess is that they are simply showcasing their team members, in strangely glamourous (?) scenarios...
buuuut, for every picture of a woman in a sports bra, there are 100 pics of boys with no shirts, and not all of them are great photos, or ground breaking problems either...
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bad_lil_kitty
Feb 18, 2005, 9:17 PM
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I got a good laugh at some of these ads, actually. They are so ridiculously silly, it's hard to take them at any value other then the blantant sex sells. I think that the whole mantra of buyer beware should be applied here. Yes, there are folks who will are disillusioned and actually think women climbing in slinky dresses, panty hose and all!
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rockfax
Feb 19, 2005, 3:39 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Those red chili ads seem to me like another example of an advertising trend marketed towards the ultra-cool "urban" climbers. You know, the metrosexual climbers...the guys who want to style their hair, drive cool, fast, italian sports cars and shred 5.14 before heading out to the club to break it down (I guess the electric slide or something...I don't dance). Anyway, I think they're moronic and if that anorexic goth-chick took my shoes I'd call the police. That's hilarious. Go rent 'The Real Thing', shot in '96, it has ALL the peices of the puzzle that you have just mentioned, funny that you think this is s new 'trend'
You can even go back further to the late 1970's early 1980's in the UK and adverts in Crags magazine that featured actually real life women's nipples.
A little later, the French (of course the French) used to feature the "Vertical Girl" in each issue of Vertical mags.
So not really new, but definately more widespread these days.
Mick
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shorty
Feb 22, 2005, 2:12 AM
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In reply to: Yes, there are folks who will are disillusioned and actually think women climbing in slinky dresses, panty hose and all!
bustier -- Offers strategic skin protection in tight chimneys. Also, based upon the wearer's decolletage, it gives an addition location to store extra RPs, stoppers, or hexes (physique dependent).
butt floss undies -- Does not inhibit movement, cool in hot weather, adds a location to clip smaller gear.
panty hose -- Warms the legs without bulk, offers a smoother line for tight chimneys (It's a little known fact that VPLs do catch in chimneys.), provides some skin protection for rough rock.
CFM pumps -- Great edging capabilities for the toes, good arch support, additional height while standing on the heel can be helpful for long moves, the stiletto heel can be jammed in cracks too small for toes. And those funky ankle straps are good for holding dollar bill tips, but that's a different story.
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climberterp
Feb 22, 2005, 9:42 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Show me an example of one of these advertisements and I'll comment....I don't read climbing magazines, and when I do I rarely even glance at the ads, so I can't think of any ads like you've described off the top of my head. Here's the pic rockfax was referring to: http://www.coreyrich.com/...ite/images/pw_08.jpg GO
That doesn't really seem like the type of pic that's being discussed here. I mean, this woman is actually climbing, she's not just standing around looking/acting provocatively sexy (i.e. hands down the pants on a motorcycle). She's not wearing a lot but that's no biggie.
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potreroed
Feb 22, 2005, 10:12 PM
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Rikki is a wondeful person and a very good climber. She works for the red cross in Denmark and climbs hard 12's.
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all_that_is_rock
Mar 4, 2005, 5:25 PM
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well the other 90% of climbing mags is pretty much a females visual wonderland. how many muscle bound, shirtless, guy pictures are in a mag compared to 1 or 2 pics of under dressed women.
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bler
Mar 9, 2005, 1:27 AM
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blurr ad's are lame..
and they copped off my nickname i've had for over 12 years now..
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bad_lil_kitty
Mar 9, 2005, 3:47 AM
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In reply to: clip clip clip CFM pumps -- Great edging capabilities for the toes, good arch support, additional height while standing on the heel can be helpful for long moves, the stiletto heel can be jammed in cracks too small for toes. And those funky ankle straps are good for holding dollar bill tips, but that's a different story.
LOL OMG I am disillusioned - thank you for setting me straight LOL that was awesome!
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bad_lil_kitty
Mar 9, 2005, 5:05 PM
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That kicks ass!!!! i love it, tks GT!!!!
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seagypsy
Apr 12, 2005, 5:44 PM
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The issue of ads aside, yeah when they are really photos of women truly climbing that's cool. But the ones that are staged phony shots of women climbing 2 inches off the ground are dumb. You know the types of photos I am talking about right? The kind where a guy stages his girlfriend in a bikini top who doesn't climb very much in a faux bouldering pose and then plasters the image all over the place. *yawn* Boring! I like shots where the woman is REALLY climbing something awesome AND it's sexy. As far as ads go sex sells, nothing new here, yet climbing can be a kind of sensuous activity and then there is all the adrenaline involved...climbing IS sexy! :)
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climberterp
Apr 12, 2005, 6:44 PM
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In reply to: The issue of ads aside, yeah when they are really photos of women truly climbing that's cool. But the ones that are staged phony shots of women climbing 2 inches off the ground are dumb. You know the types of photos I am talking about right? The kind where a guy stages his girlfriend in a bikini top who doesn't climb very much in a faux bouldering pose and then plasters the image all over the place. *yawn* Boring!
ha, that picture sounds awfully familiar to me :wink:
either we know the same person or that annoying scenario has been perpetrated by several people.
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seagypsy
Apr 12, 2005, 7:47 PM
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Hah-hah! could be! BTW I don't object to someone taking photos like this for themselves or for their silly company sponsored photo contest...it's just plain dumb when they parade these faux climbing chick photos around as the real mccoy.
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allicat
Feb 22, 2006, 3:57 AM
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i work at a climbing gym and me and a friend were flipping through one of the magazines, and there was this ad, i don't even know what it was for, i think some sort of quickdraw, but the guy i was looking through the magazine with made such a big deal about how the girl was in her underwear, and with out a bra on because there was a censor bar over her chest, what really was the point of that ad? i don't remember what it was for much less my male friend who couldn't stop looking at the woman.
To me that isn't really selling anything. it takes away from the product because no one is paying attention to it.
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heximp
Feb 25, 2006, 12:23 AM
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Hey,
I just want them to show real climbers... If they are pretty, great! If they are shown in a sexual context because it makes climbing "or a product" more popular; that is good too.
The pictures just have to be of real climbers. Anything else will be less effective in selling the idea that climbers are talented, attractive, and sexy. Since climbers naturally are these, this should not be hard.
In fact, this image is good for us. We need the public to think of us in a positive way. We need the public to like us so much that they actually care about our needs. We then can trust the public to support us with influencing Washington to allow climbers on BLM lands. We will get more media coverage. This will create a bigger market. That means more competition, more sexual advertisements, greater innovations for gear, more areas to climb etc. We then could get Nike sponsorship to cover the climbing cost for our gifted climbers. (Imagine a day when a climber can live well off of climbing. I get chills just thinking about it.)
So... How can we get millions of people to emotionally care about climbing enough to give us money, attention, and political support? Well, they have to get connected to us. The quickest way is through their sexual desires. If they get a crush on one of our public figures, if they admire them, want to be them... If we catch their attention emotionally through visual stimulation, and hold it by enticing them with bits of information... They will support us.
(Yes, sex sells... It is also can be used for power.)
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michaelmcguinn
Feb 26, 2006, 6:40 PM
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A lot of the pictures in the magazines are posed. Yes, even the pictures of real climbers on real routes & boulders.. Just read the lastest articles in the climbing mags about climbing photography. Some of the top photographers answer that very question.
MM
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michaelmcguinn
Feb 26, 2006, 6:45 PM
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A lot of the pictures in the magazines are posed. Yes, even the pictures of real climbers on real routes & boulders.. Just read the lastest articles in the climbing mags about climbing photography. Some of the top photographers answer that very question.
MM
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aimeerose
Mar 4, 2006, 5:00 AM
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Hmm, I think i started a similar thread a while back and I remember getting called a lot of bad names by another woman. Not very nice.
anyways, I think the pics of women in skimpy clothes "climbing" are stupid too. Especially of gals who you know climb strong, but it's a better shot to pose them on a V1 and point the camera down their shirts (recent pic of Angie Payne, in Urban Climber mag about 3 issues ago).
Anyways, who climbs for real in a bikini top anyways. Maybe if you're doing some easy bouldering on the beach, but if you're pulling down, I just can't see how that thing would stay on. I'd rather see a pic of some gal pulling down on a V10 topless.
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michaelmcguinn
Mar 4, 2006, 5:51 AM
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Now why would another gal call a gal from Flagstaff bag names.
Flag Rocks! Ha Ha... very punny.
Michael
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aimeerose
Mar 5, 2006, 5:45 AM
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In reply to: Now why would another gal call a gal from Flagstaff bag names.
Umm, I think maybe she's not a very nice person. Maybe doesn't realize what a cool place Flag is and how we're such a tight knit climbing community and wouldn't act that way towards each other.
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clausti
Mar 5, 2006, 6:08 AM
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In reply to: Hmm, I think i started a similar thread a while back and I remember getting called a lot of bad names by another woman. Not very nice. ...snip... Anyways, who climbs for real in a bikini top anyways. Maybe if you're doing some easy bouldering on the beach, but if you're pulling down, I just can't see how that thing would stay on. I'd rather see a pic of some gal pulling down on a V10 topless.
yeah you got called some names you deserved for saying some very nasty things about women who climb a hell of a lot harder than you.
I've sent 5.12 in a bikini top. not sure if that's hard enough for you. it stays on prety well, and its the next best thing to climbing topless, which SOME of us cant do without getting arrested, seeing as how the constabulary would be able to tell we're female.
edit: 'cause sometimes its FUCKING HOT OUTSIDE when you're climbing. i dunno if you've ever tried to throw down when it was 95 def and 90% humidity, i think i rem reading you're from the west so probably not, but its really hot. you pretty much dont want to be wearing anything more than you have to.
dont bitch about stupid shit.
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dirtineye
Mar 5, 2006, 9:04 AM
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In reply to: dont b---- about stupid s---.
Hmmmm, and just what is it that you are doing right now sweet pea? LOL!
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aimeerose
Mar 5, 2006, 4:17 PM
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In reply to: yeah you got called some names you deserved for saying some very nasty things about women who climb a hell of a lot harder than you.
How do you know how hard I climb anyways. And obviously I didn't deserve to be called the names you called me (which is so childish) otherwise they wouldn't have removed your post.
Out west here, you can climb a lot of places topless or naked and not get arrested. Who's going to arrest you, the deer? Ah, the beauty of living in the west. You're just jealous cause you have to climb in humidity and heat with tons of people around (apparently cops too!)
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comet
Mar 5, 2006, 8:05 PM
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In reply to: Hmm, I think i started a similar thread a while back and I remember getting called a lot of bad names by another woman. Not very nice.
You mean, kind of like the offensive things you said about other women, who, unlike you, were not present to defend themselves?
You might want to reread others' responses to you in the previous thread before calling the kettle black. Clausti wasn't the only one protesting, and with good reason.
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aimeerose
Mar 5, 2006, 8:40 PM
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I call it as I see it. And apparently what I said wasn't offensive enough to be removed by the moderators like what clausti said about me.
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clausti
Mar 5, 2006, 9:35 PM
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In reply to: I call it as I see it. And apparently what I said wasn't offensive enough to be removed by the moderators like what clausti said about me.
the only reason what YOU said didnt get removed is because you didnt use any "swear" words, and the moderation has a narrow view of what needs to be edited for the public's protection.
ya know, as always, just my opinion, but i find "they are only in the magazines because they're doing 40 year old photographers" a lot more offensive than "you stupid c-word." which, btw, you still are.
and as far as getting arrested by the deer, congrats for you. somehow i would think that theres no way that every single time you climb in the summer, you do so bouncing free. you probably wear a tank top, a sports bra, god forbid a bikini top, at some point. maybe what YOU wear and what other ppl wear arent always the same. that is why this is a free country- you do what you want and the rest of us will do what we want. until what you want starts impinging on the rights of others. which, in my opinion, climbing topless around people you dont know probably qualifies as impinging on the rights of others. they didn't ask for that.
oh yeah, and as far as how hard you climb? you have the rating of everything conviently listed on all of your pictures. i think if you'd've climbed anything harder than 12b, it'd be listed. and that's not even as hard as what you bitched about lauren lee being pictured climbing [5.13 something]. maybe you should do a photographer. i hear some ppl say that's a good way to get into magazines.
another btw... this:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=11238
woudl be a cleaveage shot if you had bigger tatas. dont go ragging on other people's choice of photographic angle.
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clausti
Mar 5, 2006, 9:45 PM
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In reply to: And obviously I didn't deserve to be called the names you called me (which is so childish) otherwise they wouldn't have removed your post.
ugh this was so disgusting i had to say something about it specifically.
for starters, honey bunches, they removed THE WHOLE THREAD the first time because they couldnt decide among the horrors and just decided to ax the whole thing. not just my posts. not just anybody elses posts. all of it.
feeling that the thread had certian good points to discuss, i offered to change the wording in my specific posts to bring it more in line with accepted street vocab. the powers that be decided that was enough, and they re-instated the thread.
it had nothing to do with you deserving or not deserving those names, princess. it had to do with the general, public level of tolerance [or lack there of] to specific wording.
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michaelmcguinn
Mar 5, 2006, 11:54 PM
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clausti or someone
Can you give me the other thread. I don't want to step in anyfarther without being educated. (more talk about gals in photos)
MM
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clausti
Mar 6, 2006, 12:18 AM
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In reply to: clausti or someone Can you give me the other thread. I don't want to step in anyfarther without being educated. (more talk about gals in photos) MM
In reply to: It's not just who you know (photographer-wise), it's also who you sleep with! Aparently Angie and Lauren are dating 40 year old industry/photographer men. And yes, as I mentioned before, there's been great shots of Lynn, Beth, Steph, and Lisa. That's cause they're all strong enough (physically and mentally) to make sure they don't have booty shots in the mag. They would never lower themselves to boob and crotch shots. And 5.13a is hard, but many women I know have sent at least one (most women in SLC climb 5.13 regularly). V5, not so hard.....
the train wreck
beth rodden as the fucking HAWT-ness:
http://bybee.temp.evolutionstudio.com/...36_Pata_Couple_1.jpg
note: i have EVERY respect for beth rodden, and think she is an amazingly skilled climber [FA of what, .14b?] but she is also droolingly hot. and she lets people take pictures of that. THAT DOES HER NOR ANYONE ELSE A DISSERVICE.
edit: note on beth's name... i think its caldwell now? or rodden-caldwell? anyways, you know what i mean.
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michaelmcguinn
Mar 6, 2006, 12:32 AM
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TANKS.
There were some more photos of that photo shot that were published. I remember that McNamara was just a rain jacket all soaking wet. Sexy (i guess) sure.
Michael
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aimeerose
Mar 7, 2006, 1:53 AM
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BTW, I climb 5.13. There's video of me climbing that grade, but no pics. I'll send you the link if you don't believe me.
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clausti
Mar 7, 2006, 3:52 AM
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In reply to: BTW, I climb 5.13. There's video of me climbing that grade, but no pics. I'll send you the link if you don't believe me.
THIS thread is not about how hard YOU climb.
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aimeerose
Mar 7, 2006, 2:56 PM
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No sh*t this is not a thread about how hard I climb, but I believe you brought it up. Anyways, after posting that last night, I decided that you are just a mean-spirited person. I have said nothing bad about you and look at all the mean things you've said about me. This is the last response I will make to any of your childish name calling and trash talking.
I think that pic of Beth Rodden is wonderful. I've been talking about the poser pics the whole time. If she was climbing V1 or 5.10 all sexy, then it would be lame. Maybe you just don't understand the concept. And that's cause she can climb harder, not because I have any disrespect for those grades. Actually, I like that sexy pic of Beth better; just separate climbing and sexiness all together (other than the climbing gear).
Micheal- climbingfilms.com was my husband's site. Then he got a contract with Urban Climber Magazine to redo it, so now it's at: www.urbanclimbermag.tv
They've rebuilt it and made it a lot better. I think climbingfilms will not be up too much longer. It's a long story.
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macherry
Mar 7, 2006, 3:20 PM
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sorry, i think climbing and sexy can go together. There's nothing sexier than a person involved in a healthy outdoor athletic pursuit.
and the more pics of women in magazines the better. Personally, i don't really like the posed pic of beth and chris, i'd rather see them climbing. Everytime i see that pic i think of some photo spread in outside magazine trying to sell overaged/overweight business men the "outdoor lifestyle". "look you too can go climbing and have a woman like beth hanging off your arm". No disrespect to beth, she looks great, but the pic is definitely set up for marketing.
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clausti
Mar 7, 2006, 4:54 PM
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In reply to: sorry, i think climbing and sexy can go together. There's nothing sexier than a person involved in a healthy outdoor athletic pursuit. and the more pics of women in magazines the better. Personally, i don't really like the posed pic of beth and chris, i'd rather see them climbing. Everytime i see that pic i think of some photo spread in outside magazine trying to sell overaged/overweight business men the "outdoor lifestyle". "look you too can go climbing and have a woman like beth hanging off your arm". No disrespect to beth, she looks great, but the pic is definitely set up for marketing.
I dunno, macherry, I think that picture could just as easily be interpreted as a call to the women that "look what you can have- you can be hot without having 8 lbs of makeup on, you can have a hot man reaching for you even if you're not giving him the time of day." beth isnt even looking at chris in that picture- i dont think in any way she looks like his arm candy which is part of what is so awesome about that shot.
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tavs
Mar 7, 2006, 7:39 PM
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While I've certainly shaken my head and/or rolled my eyes at some ads and other photos in the mags, I just totally disagree with the idea that pictures of strong women climbing easy shit are "lame." I mean, I LOVE looking at a stellar photo of someone strong, and then realizing, "Wow, I could climb that!" Also, some of my favorite photos of myself are of me climbing stuff that's easy for me....They're my "faves" for various reasons--sometimes because of especially compelling lighting or landscape or angle, and sometimes just because I look damn good in them. It doesn't matter at all whether I flashed the problem or route as part of my warmup.
I realize that there are more complicated issues going on with the stars in the mags--we want people to recognize the strength and power of female climbers, we want them to show women climbing hard, but I just don't see any reason to automatically dismiss a good, sexy or otherwise photo because it happens to be "easy." I just want to see GOOD photos--and good can mean a lot of things.
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macherry
Mar 7, 2006, 11:14 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: sorry, i think climbing and sexy can go together. There's nothing sexier than a person involved in a healthy outdoor athletic pursuit. and the more pics of women in magazines the better. Personally, i don't really like the posed pic of beth and chris, i'd rather see them climbing. Everytime i see that pic i think of some photo spread in outside magazine trying to sell overaged/overweight business men the "outdoor lifestyle". "look you too can go climbing and have a woman like beth hanging off your arm". No disrespect to beth, she looks great, but the pic is definitely set up for marketing. I dunno, macherry, I think that picture could just as easily be interpreted as a call to the women that "look what you can have- you can be hot without having 8 lbs of makeup on, you can have a hot man reaching for you even if you're not giving him the time of day." beth isnt even looking at chris in that picture- i dont think in any way she looks like his arm candy which is part of what is so awesome about that shot.
okay, i'll give you that. interesting, but the picture is somewhat a reversal on the usual pic where the woman's head is cut off.
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iamthewallress
Mar 8, 2006, 12:23 AM
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In reply to: I've been talking about the poser pics the whole time. If she was climbing V1 or 5.10 all sexy, then it would be lame.
You specifically said "booty pics" not poser pics. As in
In reply to: That's cause they're all strong enough (physically and mentally) to make sure they don't have booty shots in the mag. They would never lower themselves to boob and crotch shots.
Perhaps you didn't see the spread-leg photo from down below where you're looking up her shorts at the underside of her bulging boobies. If I'm not looking at a good 50% of her bare booty in the first picture, I don't think I know what a booty is.
Was your point that it's only a booty shot if it's done on moderate rock, but not when it's done in full climbing regalia with grease and make up in a studio? I'm confused.
I think the pictures are a little absurd, but iI also think it's for fun and does nothing to take away from her climbing accomplishments.
The word "poser" implies dishonesty to me.
I'm sure Beth and Angie enjoy the heck out themselves climbing V1's and 5.10's. I'd also bet that even such paltry "moderates" can still be serious heads-up experiences for them in certain contexts. I'd even bet that a pictures of them on V1's or 5.10s is probably at least as good of a reflection of who they are and how they might enjoy climbing on any given day a as picture of you on a 5.13.
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aimeerose
Mar 8, 2006, 3:18 PM
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Um, did anyone happen to notice the context of those photos of Beth? They're on an artists website. They are art, not just trying to sell shoes, etc to boys. I didn't see any of those shots of her in any climbing mag ever, not even to sell sportiva shoes.
Also, just to bring the thread back to the whole point- Do we ever see sexy shots of men on easy problems/climbs? Pretty much every shot you see in the mags of men are on hard climbs and the focus is on the climb, not on the man's body. If we want this to be a less male dominated sport and have women be seen equally, we should have equal pics of both sexes.
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lhwang
Mar 8, 2006, 4:41 PM
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In reply to: Are they appropriate, are women being used, do you care, do you like them, do they (OMG) empower women or just use women as marketing objects? Perhaps a combination....of all these.
Not sure if I'll regret this but going back to the original post... women are choosing to pose in these shots, and I believe part of feminism is about supporting women in their choices. Other women may not make the same choices as you would, but what's important is that they have that right to choose and are not judged for their choices. I think it's also important to accept that other people may have different opinions, and that they should be respected for that instead of called names (but yeah, I would be a hypocrite if I didn't mention that there have been times in this forum when I haven't done this myself).
I can't help feeling like some of the posters in this thread are debating apples and oranges. "Sexiness" has a very subjective and free-flowing definition, in my opinion. For some people, it may mean boob and crotch shots. For other people it may mean something completely different. I mean, one person's pornography will be another person's art. Or maybe I should say one person's advertising will be another person's art.
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livvy
Mar 8, 2006, 7:46 PM
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In reply to: Um, did anyone happen to notice the context of those photos of Beth? They're on an artists website. They are art, not just trying to sell shoes, etc to boys. I didn't see any of those shots of her in any climbing mag ever, not even to sell sportiva shoes.
Exactly. The same site has a picture of Roy Jones Jr shirtless holding an enormous...er..."rooster" in front of his crotch so if they are objectifying the athletes they are doing it for both genders.
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jakedatc
Mar 8, 2006, 9:18 PM
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funny.. in this gallery from Climbing of the HP40 triple crown comp.. all the guys are shirtless.. the ladies are dressed for the weather in long sleeves and hats.. but yes.. all magazines focus on girls bodys.. yes that's it.. :roll:
http://climbing.com/photo-video/gallery/triplecrown05/index2.html
http://climbing.com/photo/image/jenfuchengrr/RR8.jpg 11d. sooooo hard all about the route
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aimeerose
Mar 8, 2006, 10:49 PM
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I can't say either one of those images of the men shirtless are sexy or designed to be sexy. The difference is many of the images in magazines of the women are focused on sex, not strength, or pure climbing.
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jakedatc
Mar 9, 2006, 12:29 AM
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so when it's to your benefit it's cut and dry. but when it may be evidence against your claims you're not sure. Got it.
there are PLENTY of "i'm a strong powerful female" ad's out there.. Lynn hill's north face ad, lisa rands Prana ads, Sterling's Climb like a girl ad and clinics, beths Great Roof sportiva ad..
guy ads on easy stuff.. obe on v7 for boreal in Climbing '02 obe was probly flashing 9+
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macherry
Mar 9, 2006, 12:52 AM
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In reply to: so when it's to your benefit it's cut and dry. but when it may be evidence against your claims you're not sure. Got it. there are PLENTY of "i'm a strong powerful female" ad's out there.. Lynn hill's north face ad, lisa rands Prana ads, Sterling's Climb like a girl ad and clinics, beths Great Roof sportiva ad.. guy ads on easy stuff.. obe on v7 for boreal in Climbing '02 obe was probly flashing 9+
throw in a heidi wirtz ad mountaineering (the north face ad). patagonia always has great photos of stephanie davis and brittany griffiths.
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jakedatc
Mar 9, 2006, 1:35 AM
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exactly. Me thinks that Aimee is just a bit jealous. The other thread seems to confirm this
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unabonger
Mar 9, 2006, 11:27 PM
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In reply to: BTW, I climb 5.13. There's video of me climbing that grade, but no pics. I'll send you the link if you don't believe me.
Sweeet!
By the way, I'm 40 and I have a DAMN NICE camera.
UB
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climbsomething
Mar 11, 2006, 12:13 AM
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The Rodden butt-cheek photo actually appeared in Men's Fitness magazine, accompanying a Q&A with her. But she looks really uncomfortable there, so it's hard to slag her.
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aimeerose
Mar 17, 2006, 11:57 PM
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Ok, maybe I am a bit jealous. It just seems unfair when you go out climbing with a sponsered female climber with her photo team and she's trying to redpoint your warmup route. Seriously, this just happened to me a few months ago. And this person's photo is splashed all over the mags in ads. I really liked her, so I won't mention her name. But, WTF? I guess it's all about who you know. I noticed that as soon as another friend started dating a well known climber, her pic started appearing in the mags as well. Interesting.
Anyways, the females who appear in mags are all plenty strong and it's great that they are there representing the rest of us. I just wish they would insist on pics being taken on routes that are truely representative of their ability, regardless of what they are wearing.
I also want to add, that there are so many sick strong females that I know who don't get mag space: Ana Burgous, Heather Johnson-Smith, Anna Gonzales (who just got a shot in the Mountain Gear catalog- yeah!)
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caughtinside
Mar 18, 2006, 12:31 AM
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In reply to: I also want to add, that there are so many sick strong females that I know who don't get mag space:
Plenty of dudes who don't get it either... but I'd think the person who spends more time with photogs (dating or not) will get in more (more photos, setting up more photo time). Do you really want to drag one with you every time you climb?
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iamthewallress
Mar 18, 2006, 1:23 AM
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In reply to: Anyways, the females who appear in mags are all plenty strong and it's great that they are there representing the rest of us. I just wish they would insist on pics being taken on routes that are truely representative of their ability, regardless of what they are wearing.
It's funny how our values systems as to what is the way to "truely" represent oneself seem to be so different.
I was taught the old-school way that you only say that you are a "5.X climber" if you can do 5.X under a variety of circumstances, across a variety of styles, with good or bad pro, run out or sport-bolted, onsight, most if not all of the time.
After going climbing with may "5.Y climbers" expecting to spend the day on 5.Y's, I've been bummed when what they really meant was that they did 5.Y once under 15 lbs of tension on a top rope on their best day of climbing ever.
I've been concerned for myself that to show a picture of myself or talk about a specific route where the grade was either a fluke or me at my absolute top end would be representing something that I couldn't back up on an average day out climbing. This isn't to say that I'm always "playing it safe" by my own rules and can always resist the urge to spray about a better-than-usual experience, but in general I feel more honest if I try to represent myself with my average accomplishments instead of my best ones.
When I see pictures of people on the really hard routes in the magazines, I do wonder if they ever sent the route, and if they did, how long did it take them and how representative of their general ability was it? Sometimes, the answers are yes, onsight, and very. Sometimes not. I think that there's an honesty of showing people who climb at high levels enjoying lower grade climbs...because we know that they all do...that is absent in at least some of the higher graded climbing.
All of this has nothing to do with their attire for the photo in my mind also. If the only goal of publishing pics of girls in sports bras is to get off climber boys, it's probably short sighted to pose them on V1 as the climber boys will probably get off all the more to a picture of a hot girl on a harder route.
As far as most photographers go, a nice picture (prefereably one that sells well) is probably the most important thing for them.
Being friends with the photographers and magazine editors probably will help you get published...It's all business, and so your network is everything.
It seems to me that it's splitting hairs though for the second tier elites to complain that any one individual really, really deserves press. If Josune B. couldn't get anyone to write up her accomplishments because she didn't know the right people, it would seem pretty horrific. The ladies who are sport climbing more than a full number grade below her on their best days who do get press are all lucky when considered in relation to the top standard of the sport.
When you consider the huge numbers of 5.13 female sport climbers, many of whom desire no sponsorship or photoshoots, there is just not enough ink to give every one of them their 15 minutes Rock and Ice fame on their proudest send. So, other factors like looks, who knows who, who won what comp, who got sponsored by someone who decided to run their pic in the ad, etc., all come into play. The still climb harder than most of us, and we still want to look at them, but we just can't look at them all.
Once you make enough of a name for yourself for any of the above reasons in addition to your climbing, then people will be curious about your latest interests, and certain cults-of-personality exist. For example, Tori Allen continued to get lots of coverage even when she was on hiatus from climbing. People were fascinated by her, and her named helped magazines and manufacturers make money. She also had people working her brand.
So, for the second tier of the sport climbing elite, the question is, do you really want to spend your time working your brand? If you do, then there are no doubt published pictures to be had. Unless, unfortunately, you are especially ugly. And that is the probably the cold, harsh truth.
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macherry
Mar 18, 2006, 2:51 AM
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In reply to: Ok, maybe I am a bit jealous. It just seems unfair when you go out climbing with a sponsered female climber with her photo team and she's trying to redpoint your warmup route. Seriously, this just happened to me a few months ago. And this person's photo is splashed all over the mags in ads. I really liked her, so I won't mention her name. But, WTF? I guess it's all about who you know. I noticed that as soon as another friend started dating a well known climber, her pic started appearing in the mags as well. Interesting.
if that's the way you feel, you'll eventually give up climbing and move on to some other sport where you'll get your due recognition. But, then again, maybe you won't, it happens in lots of sports.
I know many female skiiers that rip it up constantly, hang with the big boys, but just aren't interested in any kind of recognition. They do it because the love of the sport. And i know sub-par skiers that just know how to work the sponosrship circuit.
it comes down to what's more important to you having a good day climbing with friends or recognition from the press.
I'll take a good day climbing or skiing.
best to drop the bitterness, it's not very good for the soul
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jakedatc
Mar 18, 2006, 2:59 AM
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ahh.. at least we're down to the heart of the matter and don't have to hide behind a weak stance of how they are dressed in said pictures.
i have a friend.. shoe sponsored.. is in a catalog and on posters on a 5.10 trad route. it's photogenic.. it's semi- posed to all get out (many takes to get the right shot). i'm not even sure she's redpointed over .12a outdoors. it doesn't matter.
which brings up the point. If someone is going to be re-climbing sections of a route.. picking something at their limit is not a good way to get alot of shots. Drop them down a few letters and they will be able to do laps on sections to get good shots.. or different shots to see what the editors want.
Also, i believe there was an outcry a while ago that people would like to see climbers on routes more do-able by the general public.. not just the latest 14b testpiece.
like wallress said it's about the asthetics of the shot.. not the grade.
And you should know plenty of people and get yourself out there in video form alot more than alot of people. Just because it's not in a production film or in a magazine you have plenty of air time through kyle's site. Now that they've hooked up with urban climber maybe you could talk to them about getting a shot in there. see if they are writing an article about AZ and find a nice route out there that would photo well.
from a photo comment Aimee wrote:
In reply to: I love how people's egos cause them to sandbag everything.
And yes.. it's who you know.. but making that sound like they are dating just to be in pics or whatever it makes you sound bitchy. What if they met at a photoshoot and clicked? Instead you should see that they are networking and were proactive about getting noticed.
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aimeerose
Mar 18, 2006, 4:03 PM
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Oh, I'm not bitter. I'm really happy for most of the women who get the press and photos. There are a select few, who's attitudes are negative, but they are few and far between.
And I don't think I'm going to stop climbing anytime soon. I've been doing it for 10 years and I firstly do it for myself. I guess it just gets old hearing your husband say, every time you see the pic of the aforementioned gal who's project is my warmup, "You are so much stronger than her". It's like, thanks hubby, rub it in. Anyways, like I said before, she was a super nice gal, so that's great for her that she knows the right people to get her full page mag ads.
I would like to see Anna Burgeous more in mags and videos. She is one of the strongest bouldering females out there. There should be no article about Hueco that doesn't at least have one pic of her.
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macherry
Mar 18, 2006, 8:49 PM
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In reply to: I guess it just gets old hearing your husband say, every time you see the pic of the aforementioned gal who's project is my warmup, "You are so much stronger than her". It's like, thanks hubby, rub it in. Anyways, like I said before, she was a super nice gal, so that's great for her that she knows the right people to get her full page mag ads.
i have no idea who you are talking about, but it still sounds like a lot of bitterness. Maybe her climbing had something to do with getting her in a full page mag ad or perhaps she worked really hard.
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jakedatc
Mar 18, 2006, 9:18 PM
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or maybe kyle should stop comparing his wife to other climbers. who the fuck cares.
Whining that sponsored girls are projecting your warm ups makes you sound mighty elitist..
In reply to: There are a select few, who's attitudes are negative
Do you know that Anna wants to be all published and stuff? or are you just throwing around names. I'm sure with all the folks she guides around hueco if she wanted the publicity she could get it. she's shown up in many pictures on Norope
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aimeerose
Mar 18, 2006, 10:19 PM
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[quote="jakedatc"]
Whining that sponsored girls are projecting your warm ups makes you sound mighty elitist..
In reply to: I can't help it if it's true and I am the furthest person from being an elitist that you'll ever know. You can ask anyone who's climbed with me. I spend a lot of time taking beginner climbers out on my own time. Maybe Ana doesn't want publicity. Seems odd, cause that's what gets you $$ and gear, but it could be true.
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jakedatc
Mar 18, 2006, 10:36 PM
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Ok, be upset at the companies sponsoring and putting the folks into the magazines.. don't take your frustration out on the climbers that have got what you're looking for.. they haven't done anything wrong.
(hopefully ive kept my arguing on what you're saying and not attacking you. If i get out to AZ i'd still climb with anyone out there. I just wanted to make that known)
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aimeerose
Mar 18, 2006, 11:11 PM
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I'm not taking it out on the climbers. Like I said before, I really liked this woman who I was climbing with. That's part of the reason I didn't mention her name or where we were. I've often thought that it would be difficult if you were sponsered and all over the mags and went out climbing and had a bad day, because people expect so much more from you. I place enough expectations on myself, that's probably the last thing I need! I manage to get some good industry hook-ups because of who I know, so I guess I should just be happy with that.
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