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dontfall
Oct 14, 2003, 2:33 PM
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and declare Marshall Law!
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stick233
Oct 14, 2003, 3:18 PM
Post #52 of 72
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it's getting hot in here!
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billcoe_
Nov 4, 2003, 9:06 PM
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Everytime I hear any white person say the word "Indian" I chuckle at the stupidity and arrogance of 400 years still being propogated on a daily basis. Let see, wasn't it Christopher Columbus who origonally said "this must be India!, Dohhh!" I suggest we either call this country "India" or change what we call the origonal peoples something else, like Americans after Amerigo Vespuchii. Perhaps we can call them Vespuchiss'is. Go to have a name. Not that it would make a damn bit of difference.
As far as the "Indians" (Yuk Yuk) stirring up trouble out west again, up in Oregon some caves were just closed and they pulled a crapload of bolts out of multiple caves around Bend area. Same exact situation occured, shitpile gets cleaned up, bolted and climbed. HOWEVER: You will all be happy to hear that no "Indians" were involved in these closures. Just Forest Service personel, who are looking to re-create their job descriptions as they can't cut timber any more and being in the "gobment" it's a lot like a welfare check, once you get that paycheck, it's your's for life baby, and guess what, all of us productive folks get to pay taxes for the privillage of having these asswipes shit on us.
Guess that puts us in the same boat as the origonal folks, getting shit on by the gubment.
Gotta tell you all, I don't like it any more than they did.
My rant for today. Ban the forest service!!!!
Bill
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telemarkist
Nov 4, 2003, 10:17 PM
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in my guide the route count is as follows:
45 total routes
3-5.10's
12-5.11's
15-5.12's
9-5.13's
1-5.14
4-projects
and 1 boulder problem
as most folks on this site or across the country more than likely don't climb harder than 5.11, myself included, I find the climbing use of the place to be a "special interest group". add to this it's grid bolted and alot of routes packed together in a contrived fashion it doesn't seem worth the fight. bolts, bail slings, quick draws left behind, this was always referred to as vertical trash at places I learned to climb at, so I don't see our use of the area as being less impact than others.
this rock is blasted by car and truck exhaust 24 hrs. a day as well. I for one can think of many better places to climb and so would think we can make this concession to the tribe.
pick your fights well, make a stand where it really matters, I think we can let this one go.
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toonarmy
Nov 4, 2003, 10:29 PM
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In reply to: and 1 boulder
Is that off limits too?
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telemarkist
Nov 4, 2003, 10:56 PM
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I assume it would be but with the plethora( great word placement, I propose we rate vocabulary usage) of other great bouldering opportunities in and around the tahoe area, I doubt it'll be missed much.
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dingus
Nov 4, 2003, 11:20 PM
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In reply to: I completely agree with your assessment of the Cave Rock issue. It is owned by ALL the people...dsafanda nailed it also. Most of the climbs there were too hard for me so I might not miss it a lot, but some people put a lot of blood and sweat into that place just to have it wiped away by white guilt and Indian power grabs. Pretty sad.
We own the Supreme Court and the Whitehouse too. Doesn't mean you can go climb them though. Go try it if you don't believe me.
I didn't read every single post, but I have yet to see a post calling attention to the fact it was Dan Osman who poured concrete floors in the Cave, which if you are being even slightly honest about Cave Rock, you must admit was the original fuel that lit this fire. But some of you didn't know that, did you?
When you act like you own something you actually own, we call that property rights. They are protected by the U.S. Constitution.
When you act like you own something that isn't really yours, we call that squatting. Squatting is defined in the penal code.
Pouring concrete in that cave was squatting. Destruction of public property, hubris, what have you. And the squatters were evicted. You saw it with your own eyes.
Sport bolters have good reason to fear this scenario will replay. Why, they haven't even gotten to some of the other controversial areas in the Tahoe Basin. For example, I know of a power drilled sport climbing area clearly inside a wilderness boundary.
I'd like all you righteous people denouncing the indian 'rights' to also denounce the deliberate use of concrete and power tools in areas where such use is clearly illegal... but I doubt that's going to happen. This thing has nothing to do with right or wrong. It's all about 'my way or the highway.'
Everything else, women, indians, whyatever, are just the excuses. Both sides seem equally willing to stretch reality to suit their needs. I have no tears for Cave Rock, sorry. Would like to know if I could buy some of those hangers on the cheap though...
DMT
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telemarkist
Nov 4, 2003, 11:26 PM
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another good post dingus, I've come to enjoy your always enlightening comments.
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enanubis
Nov 5, 2003, 12:26 AM
Post #59 of 72
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Good point Dingus,
I have never been to the Cave (so I don't know how much impact climbers left) but I think all climbers should know and practice the idea of zero impact, especially Pro's. Trashing your favorite crag just gives the authorities an excuse to close the area, not to mention ruin the aesthetic of the crag.
But to the more general issue brought up by this discussion...
I wonder if people would be as tolerant if scientologists felt El Cap was sacred and they didn't want climbers there. :?
Also Daisy I was very surprised, I read a post (Men... back in Jan) where you proclaimed to be a avid member of NOW. Yet you said you felt guilty for being a women on a men's only rock. In that post you really seemed really feminist, I was just shocked that you actually felt guilty.
As for other cultures, we need to be tolerant of other people, but please, just because it is another culture doesn't make it right. Sexism is sexism, I am sure most people are disgusted by the practice of Clitoridectomy (I know it is an extreme), just because it is done as part of another culture doesn't make it right.
Just encase you don't know what Clitoridectomy is: http://www.amnesty.org/...tcam/femgen/fgm1.htm
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jcinco
Nov 5, 2003, 12:33 AM
Post #60 of 72
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Right on, Dingus.
We climbers, as a whole, blew it with Cave Rock. So suck it up and move on. Maybe now folks have learned a lesson on how not to devlop a sport crag, especially one in a sensitive area.
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takeme
Nov 5, 2003, 3:13 AM
Post #61 of 72
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In reply to: Good point Dingus, Also Daisy I was very surprised, I read a post (Men... back in Jan) where you proclaimed to be a avid member of NOW. Yet you said you felt guilty for being a women on a men's only rock. In that post you really seemed really feminist, I was just shocked that you actually felt guilty. As for other cultures, we need to be tolerant of other people, but please, just because it is another culture doesn't make it right. Sexism is sexism, I am sure most people are disgusted by the practice of Clitoridectomy (I know it is an extreme), just because it is done as part of another culture doesn't make it right. Just encase you don't know what Clitoridectomy is: http://www.amnesty.org/...tcam/femgen/fgm1.htm
I find almost laughable the number of posts in this thread that express shock at how lacking the "sexist" Washoe are in comparison to "our" "equal" society. Ditto the posts that express shock at Daisy for being a feminist, yet respecting their beliefs. People, have you ever heard of the Catholic Church, or any of the other religious sects, Christian or otherwise, that do not allow women to be priests, ministers, rabbis, etc. in this country? I don't see "our" religion as being all that much different than "theirs" in that regard. C'mon, where's the outrage?
Charles
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enanubis
Nov 5, 2003, 3:45 AM
Post #62 of 72
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In reply to: I find almost laughable the number of posts in this thread that express shock at how lacking the "sexist" Washoe are in comparison to "our" "equal" society. Ditto the posts that express shock at Daisy for being a feminist, yet respecting their beliefs. People, have you ever heard of the Catholic Church, or any of the other religious sects, Christian or otherwise, that do not allow women to be priests, ministers, rabbis, etc. in this country? I don't see "our" religion as being all that much different than "theirs" in that regard. C'mon, where's the outrage? Charles
No one said "our" society was perfect, but the Catholic church isn't kicking me out of my favorite climbing area. Although thinking about it, what would happen if some yahoo, claimed to see Jesus a top the Gunks or J-Tree, what would people do if they tried to kick people out? Could they get away with it or would a lot of these Anti-Judo-christian people be able to stop them. I guess food for thought.
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takeme
Nov 5, 2003, 4:01 AM
Post #63 of 72
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In reply to: In reply to: I find almost laughable the number of posts in this thread that express shock at how lacking the "sexist" Washoe are in comparison to "our" "equal" society. Ditto the posts that express shock at Daisy for being a feminist, yet respecting their beliefs. People, have you ever heard of the Catholic Church, or any of the other religious sects, Christian or otherwise, that do not allow women to be priests, ministers, rabbis, etc. in this country? I don't see "our" religion as being all that much different than "theirs" in that regard. C'mon, where's the outrage? Charles No one said "our" society was perfect, but the Catholic church isn't kicking me out of my favorite climbing area. Although thinking about it, what would happen if some yahoo, claimed to see Jesus a top the Gunks or J-Tree, what would people do if they tried to kick people out? Could they get away with it or would a lot of these Anti-Judo-christian people be able to stop them. I guess food for thought.
Noone actually said our society is perfect, but plenty of folks sure implied it. Separate issue from the actual closure.
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bloodyknuckles
Nov 5, 2003, 6:24 AM
Post #64 of 72
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Small outbreak of smallpox should take care of this....... :twisted:
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billcoe_
Nov 6, 2003, 5:12 AM
Post #65 of 72
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My point is that the caves in Oregon were just closed. You can't blame anyone but the Forest Service and 1 or 2 local dickheads.
So no point getting riled at "Indian" folks and slamming them, and that smallpox crack is way out of line BTW. Seems like a small thing to request after being shit on for a few hundred years. We should all just try to be a little more charitable and understanding.
I'm not saying we owe anybody any more than we would want to recieve in a similar situation. I also have no guilt over what my ancestors did. Some fought indians, some were friends with them. So what?
My point is: hell, look at the arguements climbers have on the bolting issue and start from that perspective.
I'm done:
Regards to all who aren't talking about lynching anybody:
Bill
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jimrock
Nov 6, 2003, 6:25 AM
Post #66 of 72
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I have no problem with the closer of cave rock because of the cemented cave floor and the grid bolting that exists. I can understand that form of closer because of property damage. I can't however accept the closer of cave rock because of spiritual reasons. Theres a four lane highway drilled through the heart of the rock and a boat ramp adjacent to it. How sacred is that? Come on. :?:
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billcoe_
Nov 7, 2003, 4:20 AM
Post #67 of 72
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Jim: I agree.
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jimrock
Nov 12, 2003, 9:06 AM
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The four lane highway goes through the sacred rock its a tunnel. I don't know what looks and sounds worse a four lane highway with cars constantly driving threw the rock or a couple of climbers and a couple of bolts
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tradman
Nov 12, 2003, 10:51 AM
Post #70 of 72
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This whole discussion is just f**king bizarre.
The idea of "owning" rocks and mountains is just weird. We have lots of mountains and rocks here in Scotland, and although some of them fall inside people's estates, noone would try to stop you climbing on them unless you were going to interfere with someone's livelihood.
Turning up after a mountain's been there for six hundred million years, standing on it and saying, "HA! MINE! Now no-one else is allowed to touch this mountain!"....well, it's just silly.
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thrasher
Nov 22, 2003, 3:57 AM
Post #71 of 72
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Can't remember if I have posted on this one yet, had a couple of brewski's tonight...
The washoe Indians are full of crap! They are sexist biggots! they claim religion when in reality it is women they don't wnt on the rock. This is where the Bush administartion gets my goat. A FS administrator that didn't ahve his head up his ass would have told the washoe where to go!
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prezwoodz
Nov 22, 2003, 5:34 AM
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Heya ... read the whole thing and just a few little comments. first i love you stance on things daisy and wish we all had the patience. whether it be wrong or right dosent matter its how you express yourself.
Second
jimrock i dont know if im right about this but im willing to bet it wasnt the indians who said. "Hey why go around it guys just blast a big ol fat hole in our spiritual rock." And i belive it is probably actually easier for them to get the routes torn out than replace an entire road even though the hole is already there.
Third
tradman it may seem like an odd thing to say you own the mountains but what if you lived on the mountain side and you had just built your nice million dollar house on its hills paid for and all. Than someone came up to your doorstep and started to carve the mountain all the way around your house, into a nice giant hole. sure the house may be yours but how can you own the mountain?
guess thats it from me. I am actually native american and im not to sure if i belive in what is happening down there. i guess i would have to see it first. i belive in people sitting in a churh but i dont belive in people drilling holes in it for their own enjoyment. its just a building but hey its sacred to some...
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