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bearman14
Apr 11, 2006, 3:44 PM
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Hey,
I'm planning on attempting a climb on Denali next year (West Buttress route), and was wondering what people who have been up there thought about using LS Nepal Extremes for the climb. I know the traditional thought is to go with plastic doubles, but I just love the feel and fit of my Nepals. Anyone use them up there? Any concerns about warmth? Thanks for your help.
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csproul
Apr 11, 2006, 3:51 PM
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Do not use leather in Alaska or any other high, cold glaciated regon. They may be warm enough for some places, but they do not dry out as well and once they get wet they stay that way. I have personally witnessed an incident of toe loss from a person who thought they would be ok in leather. And this was in Peru where it wasn't nearly as cold as Alaska.
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bearman14
Apr 11, 2006, 4:09 PM
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Thanks for your reply. That was kind of my suspicion, but I was holding out hope :cry: . I've used my Nepal Extremes for a lot of winter mountaineering, but nothing at the altitude or extremes you can get on Denali. Good to know -- thanks!
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honus
Apr 11, 2006, 4:24 PM
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i've heard that double plastic boots with supergators glued on them for extra warmth are fairly standard up there.
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mike_maude
Apr 11, 2006, 10:14 PM
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Supergaitors might be warm enough later in the season, but the standard has been insulated overboots of some variety over plastic double boots. In May 2000 I used 40 Below K2 neoprene overboots over my Asolo 8000 doubles and had absolutely no problems. Saw a lot more neoprene than other styles like the OR Brooks Rangers.
When I went back to try Foraker I tried the new Salomon leather doubles for better fit; no problems with warmth, but if they got damp at all they froze overnight and were a real pain the next day to get on and tighten.
Back to plastics for next year
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angusmacginny
Apr 11, 2006, 10:38 PM
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Yea I agree dont use leather in Alaska, but it has nothing to do with not being able to dry it out. YOu can dry anything in Alaska in a matter of hours by just hanging it outside as long as its not snowing. Place item to be dryed outside item will freeze solid very dry air will promote sublimation of all ice from you item. Quite simply put buy the warmest thing you can find. Its fucking cold above 17k. There really is no other way to say it.
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bearman14
Apr 11, 2006, 10:45 PM
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Hey, thanks for all the replies, guys! mike_maude, I'm curious how well the 40 Below overboots work with crampons. Can they still be used with a bail, or would I need a new-matic type? Silly question, I know (obviously they work with crampons if that's what everyone's using up there), but I've never seen them in use.
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angusmacginny
Apr 11, 2006, 10:53 PM
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I used the 40 below overboots also. They are great. They work fine with all types of crampons as far as i have seen. I used crampons with a front bail. And yes mike is right they are pretty much standard footwear above 14.
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mike_maude
Apr 11, 2006, 11:15 PM
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I used BD sabertooths with the front bails, and had no problems at all. Didn't have to alter the overboots at all, and they never popped off.
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beefy
Apr 12, 2006, 1:02 AM
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I used a pair of Vasque ice 9000 for denali a few years ago and they were great. Had overbooots for the summit day but considering it was only -10 degrees C on the summit that day was probably even a bit hot. plastic doubles are the way to go.
Rob
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clintoris
Apr 12, 2006, 5:49 AM
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Scarpa Invernos, La Sportiva Nuptses, Koflach Artis Expes and La Sportiva Oly Mons are all great boots, all are warm, the Oly Mons are the warmest. They are a popular 7 summit and everest boot and are not as commonly used on Denali as on other mountains. They are however good for early season.
I'd check out the Invernos (stiffer plastic boot), or the Nuptses (lighter, more flexible hybrid plastic boot).
Either way, you'll want a double boot and will almost certainly use an overboot such as the Forty Below.
Good luck!
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kricir
Apr 12, 2006, 8:28 AM
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leather has been used on 8000 meter peaks... with out cold toes. Don't think that leather is a death sentence for your toes.
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big_red
Apr 12, 2006, 9:30 AM
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OK my one piece of advice is DO NOT USE LEATHER BOOTS!! There are a couple of exceptions out there but you don't own them (Sportiva Olympus Mons, etc.) Use the same setup the rest of us do: Plastic Double boots (preferably with some custom, molded liners- not essential though) and then get some insulated overboots. The Forty below ones are nice but be sure to bring duct tape cause there's a good chance you're gonna tear the neoprene on the bottom.
Here's the setup I've taken up Denali a few times and it's worked great:
Scarpa Thermofit Liner (molded w/ superfeet insole)
Koflach Degre Shell
I've used both the -40 overboots and the mt. hardwear and they both work fine.
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angusmacginny
Apr 12, 2006, 4:40 PM
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Yea they have, but the climbing in asia is a hell of a lot warmer than that of the artic. Climbing is all about limiting risk, and taking leather boots is a poor way to limit the chances of loosing your toes. Clearly you have not climbed in Alaska so thanks for the worthless input.
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roy_hinkley_jr
Apr 12, 2006, 5:35 PM
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In reply to: Clearly you have not climbed in Alaska so thanks for the worthless input.
Clearly you haven't climbed at 8000 meters so thanks for the worthless input. Kricir is correct, leather *can* be adequate if you get the system dialed in. It's just a bit easier with plastic boots.
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mhabicht
Apr 12, 2006, 5:49 PM
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I personally would use plastics and I would bring an over boot- BUT- am I wrong in assuming that Denali was climbed in leather first?!? I would think that it is 100% possible to get up denali safely in leather. Yes the risk is higher, yes you'll be colder but it can (and has) been done safely.
Technology is great though and I would use it when it comes to keeping toes attached to my foot.
Didnt some crazy guy solo it in hiking boots and need a rescue a few years back?!?
-michael
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csproul
Apr 12, 2006, 6:06 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Clearly you have not climbed in Alaska so thanks for the worthless input. Clearly you haven't climbed at 8000 meters so thanks for the worthless input. Kricir is correct, leather *can* be adequate if you get the system dialed in. It's just a bit easier with plastic boots. |
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thatnameisalreadychosen
Apr 12, 2006, 6:14 PM
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BEFORE YOU GO - download this doc and READ it:
http://www.nps.gov/dena/home/mountaineering/pdf/English.pdf
As for footwear - the Denali Park Service says this:
In reply to: "Footwear The single most important piece of gear is footwear, which must be of the highest quality. Boots must be of the warmest rated doubled plastic models or the military vapor barrier type. Both have excellent track records for use on Denali. Single leather boots are inadequate for the conditions and have contributed to numerous cases of frostbite in the past. All double boots must be equipped with a completely insulated overboot, including closed cell foam on the sole. Supergators are inadequate substitutes for overboots. Boots should be fitted with several pair of socks and should not be worn too tight, since feet tend to swell slightly at higher altitudes. Many climbers use vapor barrier liners (VBL) against the skin or over a thin pair of socks. Feet that have been wet all day from the VBL’s need to be placed in a dry environment each night. Foot powder is very helpful in drying out the feet. Not allowing the feet to dry can lead to a serious condition known as immersion foot (trench foot). Many climbers on Denali have suffered with this debilitating condition, which is very similar to frostbite. All footwear systems should be thoroughly tested before departing. Most of the severely frostbitten feet have occurred on summit day. All members should be ready to leave camp at the same time so no one is left standing around getting cold toes. Once you have left your high camp you will have little opportunity to attend to your feet. Cold toes are not uncommon, but adequate circulation must be maintained with some degree of sensation in the tips of the toes at all times. If your toes become cold at this point, you must either stop to rewarm your feet or make a hasty retreat. On most summit days the option to stop is not a possibility. Frostbite of the feet can sneak up slowly and its consequences are devastating." |
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angusmacginny
Apr 12, 2006, 6:37 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: Clearly you have not climbed in Alaska so thanks for the worthless input. Clearly you haven't climbed at 8000 meters so thanks for the worthless input. Kricir is correct, leather *can* be adequate if you get the system dialed in. It's just a bit easier with plastic boots.
Hey dipshit, In case you did not notice the title of this thread it is asking about Alaska. No I have not climbed and 8000m peak, but I have been to Alaska many times, and as csproul wrote if you are asking on the internet about footwear then the only correct answer to that is plastic boots. Yes leather boots work in Alaska if you have your shit seriously together and are doing light fast technical ascents, but if you are sitting on the West butt waiting for a weather window or really doing anything above 14k then plastic is the only way to go. So STFU!
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roy_hinkley_jr
Apr 12, 2006, 6:47 PM
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There are insulated leather boots that are warmer than plastic boots -- don't automatically assume that if it's plastic, it's warmer. OR overboots are a lot warmer than 40Belows. Wearing good down pants will do more to keep your toes warm than plastic boots. A good single sock can be warmer than old-school multiple socks. Wearing neoprene socks will do more to freeze your toes than wearing leather boots. Custom footbeds can do more for circulation than cheap store bought footbeds. There are lots of ways to reduce risk and plastic simply isn't the only option.
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dru
Apr 12, 2006, 7:16 PM
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Birkenstocks man! :twisted:
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akicebum
Apr 12, 2006, 10:00 PM
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Climbing the butt is leather boots is stupid. No ifs and or buts about it. Sure it is possible, but a poor choice in footwear might not mean you'll lose your toes, but you might lose your chance at an ascent. If you are going, take care of your feet. I climbed the butt with a guy wearing K3s, his feet were fine, but that was an exception, and he is a bit of retard. Good luck have fun be safe.
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big_red
Apr 13, 2006, 8:28 AM
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Ok I think we're getting a little defensive here...yes you COULD climb that mountain in leather boots. But you also COULD climb the Eiger in Chacos if you wanted to.
Climbing the West Butt is a slow slog up a trail in the snow....you spend a lot of time standing around and walking slowly...on summit day it can easily be -40 or even a little colder. There is no technical benefit to using leather boots on that route...it's just a hike.
Now I climb all winter long in the alaska range and yes, sometimes I use leather boots (Sportiva Lhotse) down to about -15F. But that's on more aerobic, technical ascents...and it took me a while to get that system dialed so I didn't get cold.
And you'll regret the first time you have to sit there while a Nalgene full of hot water has to sit in your leather boots to thaw them out so you can put them on.
Well that's my $.02 take it or leave it.
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skiclimb
Apr 29, 2006, 1:15 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Clearly you have not climbed in Alaska so thanks for the worthless input. Clearly you haven't climbed at 8000 meters so thanks for the worthless input. Kricir is correct, leather *can* be adequate if you get the system dialed in. It's just a bit easier with plastic boots.
HAHA I love when the 8000 meter guys talk out their ass about Denali.
They almost deserve frostbite.
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