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trenchdigger
May 1, 2006, 6:31 PM
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I had a slackline up in Hidden Valley over the weekend and the rangers stopped by to tell us it's illegal and needs to be taken down.
I had the line sete up using a 2x4 frame and ground anchors. At one end, I anchored to a boulder, conveniently placed by the NPS to line the campsite, and at the other end I anchored to three steel stakes placed about 12" into the ground.
I was told slacklines were banned because they're "dangerous" and that the stakes in the ground were also illegal. The ranger claimed that "tent stakes are also technically illegal, but we just kind of overlook that."
Am I the only one that finds this ban absurd? Is slacklining really more dangerous than bouldering? Trad climbing? The free-soloist running a lap on Left Ski Track? The tourons in rented motorhomes that park in the middle of the road to feed and take pictures of the coyote that's more used to human interaction than your average crag dog? And are tent stakes really illegal? Are slacklines banned in other parks too (Yosemite, etc.)?
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cliffhanger9
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May 1, 2006, 6:40 PM
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In reply to: I had a slackline up in Hidden Valley over the weekend and the rangers stopped by to tell us it's illegal and needs to be taken down. I had the line sete up using a 2x4 frame and ground anchors. At one end, I anchored to a boulder, conveniently placed by the NPS to line the campsite, and at the other end I anchored to three steel stakes placed about 12" into the ground. I was told slacklines were banned because they're "dangerous" and that the stakes in the ground were also illegal. The ranger claimed that "tent stakes are also technically illegal, but we just kind of overlook that." Am I the only one that finds this ban absurd? Is slacklining really more dangerous than bouldering? Trad climbing? The free-soloist running a lap on Left Ski Track? The tourons in rented motorhomes that park in the middle of the road to feed and take pictures of the coyote that's more used to human interaction than your average crag dog? And are tent stakes really illegal? Are slacklines banned in other parks too (Yosemite, etc.)?
yeah he told us "no lines in the campground" a little over a week ago. we werent using stakes for our setup but we did use them for the gear tent...he neglected to say anything about that..
The way i interpret that is that they just dont want them in the campsites so people dont run through and clothesline themselves. Although, we didnt bother trying to set it up across the road or otherwise outside the campground to test them..
interesting
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sidepull
May 1, 2006, 6:41 PM
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i had to remind myself it's may 1st not april 1st. seems a bit weird to ban them, but I can understand stakes being outlawed due to the erosion.
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areyoumydude
May 1, 2006, 6:46 PM
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Yea that is pretty absurd. I can understand that the don't want you using the J-Trees but boulders and A-frames should be fair game.
Slacklining is legal in Yosemite. You must pad the trees and you can't leave them up over night except in Camp 4. That's how it was last year. Their policy might have changed with the new climbing ranger.
I guess it's time for a slackline access fund.
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trenchdigger
May 1, 2006, 6:57 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: I had a slackline up in Hidden Valley over the weekend and the rangers stopped by to tell us it's illegal and needs to be taken down. I had the line sete up using a 2x4 frame and ground anchors. At one end, I anchored to a boulder, conveniently placed by the NPS to line the campsite, and at the other end I anchored to three steel stakes placed about 12" into the ground. I was told slacklines were banned because they're "dangerous" and that the stakes in the ground were also illegal. The ranger claimed that "tent stakes are also technically illegal, but we just kind of overlook that." Am I the only one that finds this ban absurd? Is slacklining really more dangerous than bouldering? Trad climbing? The free-soloist running a lap on Left Ski Track? The tourons in rented motorhomes that park in the middle of the road to feed and take pictures of the coyote that's more used to human interaction than your average crag dog? And are tent stakes really illegal? Are slacklines banned in other parks too (Yosemite, etc.)? yeah he told us "no lines in the campground" a little over a week ago. we werent using stakes for our setup but we did use them for the gear tent...he neglected to say anything about that.. The way i interpret that is that they just dont want them in the campsites so people dont run through and clothesline themselves. Although, we didnt bother trying to set it up across the road or otherwise outside the campground to test them.. interesting
Then how about a rule about no unattended slacklines?
I've never tripped on a slackline, but I have done a few faceplants after forgetting where I'd staked out tent guylines and on the stupid grill things that fold over the side of the metal fire rings.
Yah, stakes disturb the ground a bit, but nowhere near the level of driving your car on the dirt road through the campground. And do you see anything growing in the middle of JTree campsites anyway? That ground sees so much traffic that the native flora has no chance. It's not like a stake in the ground is doing more damage. Besides, even if they want to ban the stakes, it's usually easy enough to sling a boulder and/or a car as an anchor.
And what are other people doing running through your campsite anyway? Maybe people should be a bit more aware of objective hazards when running through someone else's site.
Other opinions? It just seems like a lame rule to me.
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chanceboarder
May 1, 2006, 7:12 PM
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I think some friends of mine were camping right next to you this weekend because when I stopped by I remember seeing that set up in Hidden Valley late Saturday afternoon and it looked fine to me. The line was placed over flat level ground with nothing really to fall or land on (other then the ground). Personally I feel that it's no more risky then something like bouldering or climbing. I've seen a lot of people who set up their lines and toss their crash pads down under them for a little protection. A couple of stakes in the ground makes a couple of hole but within a week or two they're filled back in and getting compacted again specially if it's in a campsite which will see a lot of foot traffic. I don't see a point to this rule and personally think is kinda yet another lame rule for rangers to spend their time trying to enforce when they could be doing something else.
Jason
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superbum
May 1, 2006, 7:16 PM
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fckn J-tree...Last time I was there My girlfriend and I picked up two FULL garbage bags of trash just on the Hidden Vally CG loop. The recycling was OVERFLOWING w/ cans and bottles all over the ground next to the bins (we actually didn't pick those up and still filled two bags w/ regular trash.) The funny thing was that EVERYDAY someone (often times two people) would show up and clean the restrooms. I was pretty pissed and brought the two trashbags to the entrance kiosk and left them w/ the person in the booth (he was actually very nice and took them in his trunk to dump in town because there was no dumpster at the entrance.)
Now, what I didn't understand is that I was PAYING $$$$$$$$$ to camp there and the campground looked worse than ever before and I saw the fewest park employees than on any previous trip...but the fckn bathrooms were spottless....
I won't even go into the Raging local teen party that happened where I almost got my ass kicked and had to clean up a twelve pack of broken glass. Yep, they didn't pay, or get in trouble. I felt like I should have been getting paid that trip instead of the park service.
Now I am hearing that there are MULTIPLE rangers going around banning slacklines...NOT highlines, but fckn campground slacklines??? I'm so glad they are putting camping fees into good use. Idiots.
J-Tree has become one of the worst parks to visit (That I've been to) when it comes to climber/ranger/administration relations. When they started the fees they promised to strive to create such a great repore w/ climbers....well, they are failing In my opinion.
Sorry, ranting and raving again.
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erclimb
May 1, 2006, 7:42 PM
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you know, there are national park rangers in this country who actually have to use food stamps or welfare because their pay is so low they can't afford to live in the communities that surround many of our parks where they work
it's easy to complain, but give them a break...they could have ticketed the slackliners; instead, they asked (apparently politely) that the lines be removed...and they overlook tent stakes and a number of other minor infractions...when they "hassle" us, they're simply doing their job
the bathrooms are cleaned by contractors; i think the trash pick up is contracted, too...but the fee money also has to pay for road and trail maintenance...enviromental protection...rescue equipment and training...etc.
the fact is we should ALL pick up the trash (their OUR parks, after all), protect the environment by staying on the trails and keeping our dogs on a leash...avoid accidents by climbing responsibly...however, we want total freedom to do as we please, then we'll complain (or sue) when things go badly
keep in mind that our parks cost a LOT of money, and the people who protect them have a thankless job...j-tree is a beautiful, magical place with spectacular climbing; so i can't set up a slackline when i go there to CLIMB...big deal, at least i can still go there...for a measly $5 a day
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superbum
May 1, 2006, 7:48 PM
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Well said Erclimb..
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chanceboarder
May 1, 2006, 7:59 PM
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In reply to: you know, there are national park rangers in this country who actually have to use food stamps or welfare because their pay is so low they can't afford to live in the communities that surround many of our parks where they work it's easy to complain, but give them a break...they could have ticketed the slackliners; instead, they asked (apparently politely) that the lines be removed...and they overlook tent stakes and a number of other minor infractions...when they "hassle" us, they're simply doing their job the bathrooms are cleaned by contractors; i think the trash pick up is contracted, too...but the fee money also has to pay for road and trail maintenance...enviromental protection...rescue equipment and training...etc. the fact is we should ALL pick up the trash (their OUR parks, after all), protect the environment by staying on the trails and keeping our dogs on a leash...avoid accidents by climbing responsibly...however, we want total freedom to do as we please, then we'll complain (or sue) when things go badly keep in mind that our parks cost a LOT of money, and the people who protect them have a thankless job...j-tree is a beautiful, magical place with spectacular climbing; so i can't set up a slackline when i go there to CLIMB...big deal, at least i can still go there...for a measly $5 a day |
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trenchdigger
May 1, 2006, 8:13 PM
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In reply to: you know, there are national park rangers in this country who actually have to use food stamps or welfare because their pay is so low they can't afford to live in the communities that surround many of our parks where they work it's easy to complain, but give them a break...they could have ticketed the slackliners; instead, they asked (apparently politely) that the lines be removed...and they overlook tent stakes and a number of other minor infractions...when they "hassle" us, they're simply doing their job the bathrooms are cleaned by contractors; i think the trash pick up is contracted, too...but the fee money also has to pay for road and trail maintenance...enviromental protection...rescue equipment and training...etc. the fact is we should ALL pick up the trash (their OUR parks, after all), protect the environment by staying on the trails and keeping our dogs on a leash...avoid accidents by climbing responsibly...however, we want total freedom to do as we please, then we'll complain (or sue) when things go badly keep in mind that our parks cost a LOT of money, and the people who protect them have a thankless job...j-tree is a beautiful, magical place with spectacular climbing; so i can't set up a slackline when i go there to CLIMB...big deal, at least i can still go there...for a measly $5 a day
So you're saying tent stakes really are illegal? I've never heard or seen that anywhere and I find it hard to believe.
I agree with much of what you're saying. Not all rangers are pricks. In fact, most I've met in Joshua Tree are friendly, courteous, and helpful - Jerome and Scott especially. A couple of the others... well I wish I could say the same for them, but that's not the point of this thread.
So let's stick to the point. It sounds like your opinion is that we should just accept this ban. You're saying we shouldn't question the rangers to provide a justifiable reason for the ban because they're underpaid and have a "thankless job."
I believe the reasons they provided for not allowing slacklines could be solved by making a few simple rules on how they're set up. I also believe any sensible ranger would be consider allowing slacklines given they're set up in such a way that they don't negatively impact the environment and are not left unattended. What's wrong with that?
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tim
May 1, 2006, 8:33 PM
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The NPS emphasizes the Law Enforcement career track for rangers as a preferable means of advancing within the organization. Rangers like Lincoln Else and others, whom we may (I believe correctly) perceive as being "on our side", often get the shaft as a result. In addition, many of the policy decisions are made by pasty, puffy drones in Washington, DC, who may or may not ever set foot in a park. The rangers do the hard work, and career bureaucrats typically make the (often very poor) decisions about policy.
I resent this state of affairs as a citizen. I pay plenty of taxes and my wife pays even more. Apparently, most of those taxes are sucked up into pork-barrel projects like $50M bridges between 50-person towns in Alaska, Halliburton kickbacks, and the like. Considering that the USFS and NPS budget amounts to a rounding error in the overall budget, I suggest that those of you who vote (should be all of you, otherwise, STFU and take it in the shorts like you deserve) get a bit more proactive before horse shit like this becomes the rule, rather than the exception. The one nice thing about bureaucrats is that they tend to run from controversy like cockroaches from a flamethrower. This is where the "vocal minority" approach comes in.
Climbers and slackliners are a small fraction of visitors to parks, however in places like JTree they are a significant part of the lore and attract visitors who otherwise might not come. This is a double-edged sword, and you will have to learn to market your actions better, along with organizing better, if you wish to succeed in retaining freedoms implicitly granted.
Mass action does work -- take a look at the San Bernardino National Forest use plan, particularly Page 7 of the PDF. Those comments were collected as the result of a push started by Randy Vogel (author of the canonical JTree guidebook and first president of the Access Fund) and circulated through this site (among others). We got what we wanted, as climbers, because enough climbers spoke up, and loudly.
If you get your shit together and market your interests effectively, you can generally get what you're seeking, especially when an unpopular administration is too busy backpedaling and too worried about more negative publicity to continue meddling. More widespread and fundamental changes will take much longer, but with enough voices (and money) driving them, are not out of the question.
If you don't fight for your interests, and they're not in line with what the majority (or vocal minority interests) expect, you will probably get screwed. This is an excellent example of a small matter that can be leveraged to open up the topic for wider discussion, and it would be a good place to start. The worst that can happen is that the decision-making process for this sort of regulation will be brought out into the light of day.
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artm
May 1, 2006, 9:10 PM
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shoot
we get a really nice bonfire going and a small mob with torches foaming at the mouth and tim has to come in and throw water on everything with some very enlightening facts.
thanks a lot tim.........way to kill an entertaining thread
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majid_sabet
May 1, 2006, 9:47 PM
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Wilderness Act 1964
If it does not grow on the ground, it does not belong there (Street vision of this Act) They can also write you up a ticket and or take your stuff.
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sidepull
May 1, 2006, 9:53 PM
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odd sugar-momma detail of the day:
In reply to: I pay plenty of taxes and my wife pays even more. |
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dingus
May 1, 2006, 10:06 PM
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I don't think every party that shows up to J Tree should be setting up slack lines in camp.
DMT
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tim
May 1, 2006, 11:11 PM
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In reply to: odd sugar-momma detail of the day: In reply to: I pay plenty of taxes and my wife pays even more.
Used to be the other way around, then I went back to grad school.
In any event, while I don't like the visual pollution of abandoned slacklines, the tent-stake argument strikes me as spurious. If you want to call a slackline littering, then for fuck's sake, call it litter and be done with it.
I suspect that would be the end result of any action, but at least it would be clear why certain things are and are not allowed. One obvious upshot of the "we kind of ignore the tent stakes" remark is that the park and its reservation-only campsites would lose a lot of revenue if they started actually enforcing the rules properly, if these are in fact the rules.
But hey, your RV would be A-OK!
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vanclimber
May 2, 2006, 12:13 AM
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Hmmm, thats funny, because when I was there earlier this year the guide that the rangers hand out stated that you could slackline if you used only boulders and not trees (alive or dead).
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mbez
May 2, 2006, 12:57 AM
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bah, if you have time or energy to slackline, you're not climbing enough. It's frickin' J Tree, for crissakes!
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