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billcoe_
Sep 12, 2002, 8:01 PM
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This first paragraph is an edit based on info recieved later. I had origonally called the header-or title of this post "the B-52 is a terrible POS". I do not believe that anymore as of 10-31. If you click 3 pages back you will see Trango's response to my concerns and my apologies to Malcom at Trango for my (as it turned out) unduly harsh words about this belay device. As nobody addressed my concerns, I did go overboard (ask my wife about this, it's a regular thing, sigh) Thus I changed the heading of the topic of the thread. I did not change the rest of my posts, even the many parts I was wrong on, although several RC.com members say disparaging things to me. I was trying to be honest, I got more info as time went on that erased the safety concerns which I had. Trango really makes great gear (no, nobody threatened to sue me:-), but the B-52 isn't as free running on fatter ropes as I want. Origonal posts follow, even though it's basically moot.
...........................
Well, I just got my B-52 in and ran out and tried it last night. I promised to report back when I got it and here is the truth as I see it. (I am posting this as a new topic so it will be on top, I think there is a big potential saftey issue here)
If I had been able to "try before I buy" this device, I would not take one, even if it was a gift for free. Admittly it looks pretty, but thats all.
1st) From Trango: "Rappelling with the B-52? is a thing of beauty." and also "Finally, a good belay/rappel device must be lightweight, simple and intuitive to use." I agree with the sediment and the statement they make concerning the latter but not the former, THIS IS BULLSHIT OF THE HIGHEST DEGREE AS IT DOES NOT COME CLOSE TO APPLYING TO THIS DEVICE. This thing is not omnidirectional like just about every other similar (not talking gri-gris here, just ATC/Tuber types) device. Look closely at it, YOU MUST FEED THE ROPE 1 DIRECTION ONLY. Look at how thin the material is if you do it incorrectly and screw up. I threaded it wrong twice yesterday while rappelling (and had to re-do it while standing on the edge of the cliff). If you get dehydrated, or its dark and you are dead tired, if you get it backwards I belive your life may be at risk. Trango does not give a strength rating if you thread the rope backwards. I read the literature with the device 3 times: and do not see it on the site either, which is much more complete. Had they tested the strength with it backwards, I would not have such extreme unease here.
2nd) Also from the Trango web site: "we went on to tweak it so it has an almost frictionless and jam-free feed" NOT TRUE: There was in fact whats known in the climbing dude community as "way excessive" excessive friction. At least when using my Chouinard/BD full sized 11MM rope. Admittly, Chouinard ropes have always been stiff. It is way too stiff to easily get the rope through, it barely slides through and was the worse I've ever used and I've used a lot of them. I have 3 ropes, my others are smaller and I did not try those.
3rd) the cable gets in the way. It's too stiff, although it's certainly strong enough that there will be idiots out there who will use it to belay off off.
For me, I couldn't use it and switched back to my SMC straight 8 for belaying and rappeling. This thing is a worthless piece of shit. Bottom line, use just about anything else including a hip belay or a link of chain is my opinion.
Like to hear from others on this:
Regards;
Bill
[ This Message was edited by: billcoe_ on 2002-10-31 20:41 ]
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atg200
Sep 12, 2002, 8:14 PM
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I really like this device, and will probably pick one up and retire my atc. I found it the easiest device by far to get an 11mm rope in, rappelling with skinny ropes felt very secure, and it really isn't that hard to figure out which way to orient the device. It is a little tough to rap on fat lines, but the security in rapping skinny lines is fantastic. So far, it is the best device I have ever used, so obviously YMMV.
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jer
Sep 12, 2002, 8:21 PM
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Yikes! I guess you definitely hate the thing.
My experience was not the same; but I can definitely see where it would be nice to know the rating if you screw up(which I also did twice as well).
If you are still using a 11m Chounaird rope...it probably is so fuzzy that it would catch on anything you shove it in. However- I found that rappelling(with it properly rigged) was fantastic, smooth and everything it professed to be. Although I fear the strength issue when it is rigged backwards, all it took was a little more control and pulling the rope a little tighter. For belay I found it smooth and quick feeding- although the "chick chink chink" against the locker was a little obnoxious(which may have something to do with a stiff wire).
All in all I definately didn't hate it...but I agree that it is not a "revolutionary device" and simply is another option...and some may find it more comfortable on long rappells.
Billcoe- I do agree...sweaty exhausted, fumbling with a headlamp---without being used to it- one would have a hard time rigging it correctly...I found after awhile though (4 days in RMNP) I could just feel it and know if it was rigged correctly.
dats all I gotta say bout that-
Jer
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punk
Sep 12, 2002, 8:31 PM
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Hey Billy,
A little harsh there…. I own the B-52 while I don’t have anything to brag about the device I certainly not thinking that is a p.o.s. as I said in my report earlier…"good device but not the one u should rush to the store to get" Next to my JAW I liked the BRD still need to try the SBG (Krusty… ) to see which I like the best
Peace
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billcoe_
Sep 12, 2002, 8:43 PM
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Maybe harsh, but the 11mm rope is not fuzzy, stiff, but not fuzzy. It works fine on everything else I own.
2)If trango could test this thing backwards, which would be a common mistake from an average climber, and if the test was high enough, I would not be so amped.
For my rope yesterday (and again, that was the biggest 1 of the 3 I have) it was real, real difficult to push the rope through it on belay. My stitch plate is a much better device than the B-52, and the stitch plate is not as good as the Tuber and the SMC Straight 8.
Bill
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timpanogos
Sep 12, 2002, 9:02 PM
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I toproped my son on his first trad lead utilizing the b-52 in autolock on the top rope and belaying the lead rope on a regular atc.
The autoblock does work very well.
However, as I mentioned in the other thread, it did not run as free as I would have liked at the top of a rap - although it was smooth, not the grab an armlength and feed/jerk like you do at the top with an ATC. I used to leave a small loop on my atc and let the lead pull it through, not with this device - you will want to pull the rope through on feed - not as smooth as I had hoped.
I have yet to setup it up backwards - it's not that hard, but I would be nervous of breaking power if it was setup backwards.
Now I know the feed deal, I'll continue to use this device - for trad, it's light, raps nicer, allows me to safer belay 2 seconds, emergency ascender etc.
I'll get used to it and continue to carry it for trad.
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naitch
Sep 12, 2002, 9:05 PM
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No trouble here, but then both my ropes are 10.5s It has been smoother than a reverso and an ATC I 've used. it's been in use for a month now and haven't threaded it backwards yet. However, that raises a question. Why is the strength different threaded one way verses the other? If I understand correctly what you mean by backwards, then it seem that either way it is going to put an equal amount of tension of the leading edge and trailing edge.
Natich
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pir8penguin
Sep 12, 2002, 9:21 PM
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i did have the oppurtunity to use this when i went home last weekend, and I have to say that in my opinion none of your arguments are valid enough to come close to classifying this device as a pos.
ffirst, it's quite obvious which way the device should be rigged. the more abrupt braking edge is obviously going to be the breaking side. i don't see a problem, unless maybe it's dark in which case you can feel that one side is much more abrupt.
second, we're talking about an 11mm rope here. 11mm with an atc is like pulling a sweater through anyway...so in all fairness, it's not a shortcoming if most other devices act the same way. it handled the frizzy 11 at the local gym just as well as an atc.
now your thrid comment makes some sense...it is somewhat obtrusive for a keeper cable, but i didn't really find that it got in the way (i use a fairly big biner for belay). it does jingle a bit more than i'd like, but that doesn'tbother me too much.
all in all, it's a great device in my opinion. i'll reiterate...MY OPINION!!!
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chuckd278
Sep 13, 2002, 4:18 AM
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It's not a POS, but it's no better than an ATC for all around use. The autoblock works nice, but the rigging looks like it puts a lot of pressure on the device. It does rappell nice with twin ropes. As far as belaying a lead its ok with a little jerk here and there. If somebody peals off a climb it locks tight. When your trying to belay a top roper and take in slack it also locks tight at unexpected times due to how it pinches the rope to make the extra friction. The jerking feed is quite a bad design flaw. You have to feed the rope and make sure it frees the device before pulling the slack and locking off unlike an ATC. Like I said it's is good, but not for all around use.
Chuck
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billcoe_
Sep 16, 2002, 12:18 AM
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Well, I went out toproping yesterday and here's my thoughts.
1st) I'm surprised that I am the only person who apperantly feels this way.
My figure 8 and tuber have this thing beat real bad.
Everything I said above, 1st post) still applies.
Except: On 1 of the 10.5's it worked great, topnotch in fact. It was smooth on rappel and belay, yet held easier when locked than other devices when someone hung. Worked awesome.
BUT, it was still a little stiff(but just enough to be a minor annoyance) on 1 of the 10.5's. It is stiff enough that I don't want to ever use it on that rope again. Too much work.
This thing will get shucked into a corner of my basement, it is definatly not worth any money IMO.
Again, this is "My opinion only". I could see where if you ONLY used a 10mm and not a "big" 10.5 or 11mm, it might be a great thing. I still dislike the non-omnidirectional feature however. I feel it is just a matter of time until you start hearing of deaths with the B-52 failing. Of course Trango will say that it was worn/old and used reversed: ie - improperly. But that's crap. Dead is dead and it wouldn't happen in any similar circumstance with an ATC, Tuber or an 8.
Bad design is bad design. Trango makes some great stuff, but not this.
FYI: I have send a copy of my 1st post to Trango but have not heard back. I specifically also asked for their strength test results on the B-52 if used reversed.
Haven't heard back yet, but will share when I do.
Bill
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pir8penguin
Sep 16, 2002, 1:48 PM
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well, if you can't use the gear properly then i guess chucking it in the corner is the right thing to do. i can see how in a limited sight situation perhaps reverse rigging might be possible...but not that likely in plain daylight.
they may "lose" your email pal...3rd party testing may be faster.
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billcoe_
Sep 16, 2002, 7:25 PM
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Well thanks Sir Penguin. I personally truly feel that it is a matter of time until we start seeing deaths occur. As far as I go, I've been climbing for quite some time and feel quite confident I'll be OK.
I do not feel the same way about my newbie brother climbers, many of whom are unsure which way the harness goes on, how to tie a figure 8, or even if the rope goes around their harness or necks, etc etc.
I would like to see your what your opinion would be after climbing a long multi-pitch with my Choinard 11mm rope. After trying and struggling to force the rope through I suspect in a few min you would gladly toss this device over for a hip belay. Add to that the inherent dangers and complications from this and IMO it's not worth bothering with.
Again: I have a lot of respect for Trango, I am not aware of them making trash like the B-52. But I will be curious how they address my comumication. There is no need for me to test this device, Sir Penguin, as I will not be sued when it fails. Nor will it fail on me as I will not use it.
I may in fact be called to testify as an expert witness for some decedants heirs at some future point: which I will gladly do.
Regards:
Bill
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waxman
Sep 16, 2002, 11:46 PM
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I only have one comment........Shouldn't you make sure that your rappel device is rigged properly before you start going down?
Just a thought.
Craig
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pir8penguin
Sep 16, 2002, 11:59 PM
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to the point of the 11m rope, i wouldn't use such a rope. i prefer ropes of a slightly smaller diameter, in the 10-10.5 range at the most. secondly, i'm not much of a multi-pitch climber. the only thing i would expect of this device is improved performance as a lead/tr/belay-from-above single pitch device. in that respect, it seems fairly ideal.
also to clarify, i wasn't inferring you should test the device, but some other third party that regularly tests climbing devices in atypical situations, or dare i say improper use situations.
i do, however, see your point quite clearly: given your current use for the device, it doesn't fit the bill. that's perfectly fine. i just don't think calling it a terrible POS was the right way to go about saying it doesn't meet your personal needs.
but i believe we've said about enough concerning this.
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billcoe_
Sep 23, 2002, 7:02 PM
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Sorry: Sir Penguin. Perhaps I should have phrased my origonal comments better.
Lets see: OK here it is.
The B-52, (while it is a VERY good looking device on the store shelf) does not meet my personal needs.
I need a device that is bomber, easy, and works for the sized climbing ropes I climb on which includes an 11mm occasionally: capabilities all of which the B-52 does not do worth a f-----ng shit.
I "personally" and honestly feel it will be a fairly short period of time until we are burying bodies. But if you are so in love with the device, despite my feelings of it's shortcomings, perhaps I could sell you mine for 1/2 price?
Did the re-phrasing help you here? Let me add that Trango has a lovely web page for the B-52, but they have as yet not responded to my e-mail lambasting them for the errors (OK OK I called them lies) of their claims concerning the shortcomings of that lovely POS.
Regards:
Bill
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tim
Sep 23, 2002, 7:15 PM
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Yeah, well, I dig my Reverso and it seems more or less idiot proof. So I'll be holding onto that one.
Works great with my doubles, great with my (now retired) 10mm, great with the 10mm + a 7mm zipline on rappel, great with my new 9.4mm x 70M, great on the ground, great with two followers, great on top...
You get the idea. No complaints about the Reverso once I learned to avoid the dreaded 'skinny rope wedging' and give slack properly (with a sling). See if you can exchange the B-52
--t
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dreamteton
Oct 13, 2002, 5:09 PM
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The B52 is a very smooth rappel on a decent rope and instantly replaced my Reverso. It will not last as long a Reverso, but is almost an ounce lighter. You do have to be VERY careful when threading it. It might be thin, but it has broken HMS lockers before itself when set up to bring up seconds. A very fine and SMART device. Keep the ATC to save wear on the B52.
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billcoe_
Oct 15, 2002, 4:12 AM
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Sorry: what do you mean "It might be thin, but it has broken HMS lockers before itself when set up to bring up seconds."
I've never hear of this happening? What do you mean? BTW: the B-52 unit is shucked into my large trash pile in the basement.
Bill
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ktwo
Oct 15, 2002, 4:18 PM
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Soooo... since you happen to hate this thing so bad, and you are gonna just chuch it in your basement, any chance you wanna send it to me? I'll pay shipping! You would be rid of your hated device, I would get some cool gear, it works out for all of us!
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gearweenie
Oct 16, 2002, 2:30 AM
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Used the device, thought it sucked and cost way to much. More hype, looks like its made in Korea.
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phillyb285
Oct 16, 2002, 2:54 AM
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hey, if u dont want it, send it to me! i'll take if off ur hands for u! peace,
phil
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brogan
Oct 16, 2002, 3:08 AM
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There is no strength rating on the device because the UIAA does not test none mechanical devices for rappeling. It is going to break I have used the thing and it is not the best thing since the Gi-Gi but it is not a POS. Get your facts straight before bashing a product. For it's intended use, which is belaying the second it works great. If you are tope roping you don't need to buy a specailty device like the B-52.
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stoutclimb1
Oct 16, 2002, 8:18 PM
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I think mine the shiznit
What I dont like about it though is how stiff the wire is
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positron
Oct 17, 2002, 12:36 AM
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I have a B-52 and really like it for rappelling. It is the smoothest device I have used yet. I don't like using it to belay on large diameter ropes because it is hard to pull the rope through but on thinner diameter I.E. 10.2 it feeds like a dream. Just make sure you follow the little picture on it as to how to feed the rope and you will be fine.
[ This Message was edited by: positron on 2002-10-19 18:55 ]
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billcoe_
Oct 17, 2002, 3:43 AM
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Brogan: I'd say I have every one of my facts correct. What are you talking about.
I say it looks weaker than other devices if threaded incorrectly. You can't thread a tuber incorrectly. What do you mean "For it's intended use, which is belaying the second it works great." Huh, whats that mean, that you cannot lead on it??????? I prefer multi-pitch cracks. At my advanced age and feeble state, I'd rather conserve my strength for climbing and not waste it fighting to get my rope through a POS like this.
Sorry, but it is a POS, get a DMM Bug as it works better, is safer, and cheaper also. It's a no brainer, the B-52 is a bad design.
But hey, at least Trango has a snazzy web page for it, should sell a gazillion and get rich....well...at least they'll make a lot of money before the litigation hits. Personally, I'd prefer my partner use a hip belay than a B-52, at least the limitations are known.
Bill
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