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alpinerock


Jan 18, 2007, 11:30 PM
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I might be beating a dead horse here, but i'll fire away anyways.

First let me start out with a disclaimer, i'm a fairly advanced climber, i have been climbing for about four years now and feel like my technique has gotten to the point where I won't be seeing any significant improvments in my overall climbing from improvments in this area. So i have shifted my focus to power.
I have started incorporating weight training into my training schedule and i'm wondering if this is benifical? I'm not talking about for cross training, which i do as well, but lifting to build up and strengthen muscles used in climbing (IE lat-pulls, finger curls ect.). I spend mondays, wednesdays, and fridays actually climbing, and everyother day I go to the gym and lift. I'm hoping that by climbing as much or more than i lift i'm training the muscles at the same rate I gain them, is this assumption correct? I only started this program several days ago so i have yet to see any gains/losses in my overall performance.


shimanilami


Jan 19, 2007, 12:10 AM
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Since you have the technique thing down, you should just start taking steroids.


bernard


Jan 19, 2007, 12:33 AM
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....i'm in no way any kind of an expert.....but.....

spend some time researching this and related topics at this site's past threads

research the concept of periodization with regards to training to get some understanding of cycling your training and what to expect/how to monitoring performance gains and how long you should expect to achieve them

Sounds like your regime as currently practiced will most likely result in some overuse related injury.....so you might want to research that topic too so as to be prepared for when it happens

My opinion is four years is not very long. Would it take four years of training to get to and sustain a high level of achievement in say, one of the martial arts?.....ballet?.....gymnastics?......most any sport? More than likely you are just beginning. Think back on this in twenty years or so


eliclimbs


Jan 19, 2007, 1:11 AM
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Like someone else already said, read some. Rockprodigy (spelling?) has a very good article on many aspects of training.

I found that weight lifting helped me improve on overhanging stuff, but in general hangboard and campus board workouts were better for my overall climbing.


shimanilami


Jan 19, 2007, 9:30 PM
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On a more serious note, I'd suggest that in addition to your physical training, you also consider "mental training." If you are not lead climbing already, start. Top-roping is not climbing. And bouldering is ... I won't go there.

I also recommend Arna Ilgner's "The Rock Warrior's Way". This has helped many climbers break through to the "next" level, especially those who thought it was simply their physical abilities that were holding them back. Also, the book offers methods for learning how to recognize how to improve, and that is a powerful tool.


(This post was edited by shimanilami on Jan 19, 2007, 10:14 PM)


sidepull


Jan 20, 2007, 2:12 AM
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Ok, you know I think you're a spraylord, but let's set that aside for now, because I think this is a really interesting question that's been debated in different forms in this forum.

Here's one view: Lifting weights won't help.
The underlying assumption here is that specific training is necessary for gains that are going to be applicable to climbing. People that hold this view will argue that the joint angles and movements used in weight lifting aren't mechanically similar to movements in climbing and so you won't be helping yourself. In fact, by choosing to weightlift, you'll be taking time away from climbing and climbing-related recovery. If you buy this logic, then buy The Self Coached Climber and read the training plan at the end for "elite" climbers.

Here's another view: Weightlifting helps, you need to be stronger to climb better.
The underlying argument here is that many climbing moves are uber specific and climbing-training is too varied to adequately stimulate muscle growth so adding a weight lifting routine can be beneficial (see Performance Rockclimbing). Other arguments might include:
* Weightlifting will help increase the metabolism and increase muscle thereby increasing weightloss and/or improving strength to weight ratio.
* Weightlifing can improve weaknesses and complimentary muscles and thereby prevent weaknesses (e.g. tendonitis, shoulder injuries, etc.).
If you buy this logic, the check out Rockprodigy's training article and then find a weightlifting program for athletes (note that the set/rep scheme is different for athletes than bodybuilders) and integrate into your training schedule (you could start by searching on t-nation.com).

An alternative view: You don't know enough to make the right decision so learn more.
Okay, this might seem like I'm blasting you here, so try to read this with an open mind. As Bernard noted, 4 years isn't a long time. The fact that you 1) think you can't improve your technique much more and 2) don't know how to integrate a weight training program into your climbing program shows that you really need to understand training more.

First, the fact that you think you can't substantially improve your technique is a mental hurdle that you really need to blast through. Think about, one of the things that makes Chris Sharma such an amazing climber is that he's so humble. He never thinks he's learned all there is to know about how to move his body. He's always open to learning and because of that he tries things people would think are ridiculous.

Second, if you do go the weights route, there's a huge learning curve about how to train, eat, and rest that can't be distilled into a single post or thread. You're going to have to read a lot. You'll have to keep a training journal. You'll have to set specific goals. And you'll really have to monitor yourself so that you get the right amount of rest (the program you outlined at the start will simply lead to injury).

Finally, be honest with yourself about what it is you want. Dave Graham recently blogged about wanting to be stronger (and you can hear him psuedo-complaining about it in the recent Dosage vid). But is that what Dave really needs to break through to a higher level? Similarly, is that what you need or are you just climbing with guys with big biceps (like Dave climbing with Chris and Dani) and you think "if I had bigger biceps then I could climb that too." Honestly, I'm not sure what the answer is. Whatever you decide make sure that you're systematic and committed and that you are honest with yourself about why you made your decision.

Good luck.


alpinerock


Jan 21, 2007, 9:28 PM
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sidepull wrote:
Ok, you know I think you're a spraylord

Haha, well that definatly disspelled any doubts i might have been harboring pertaining to your attitude towards me! All well, I do deserve that rep.

sidepull wrote:
but let's set that aside for now, because I think this is a really interesting question that's been debated in different forms in this forum.

Here's one view: Lifting weights won't help.
The underlying assumption here is that specific training is necessary for gains that are going to be applicable to climbing. People that hold this view will argue that the joint angles and movements used in weight lifting aren't mechanically similar to movements in climbing and so you won't be helping yourself. In fact, by choosing to weightlift, you'll be taking time away from climbing and climbing-related recovery. If you buy this logic, then buy The Self Coached Climber and read the training plan at the end for "elite" climbers.

Here's another view: Weightlifting helps, you need to be stronger to climb better.
The underlying argument here is that many climbing moves are uber specific and climbing-training is too varied to adequately stimulate muscle growth so adding a weight lifting routine can be beneficial (see Performance Rockclimbing). Other arguments might include:
* Weightlifting will help increase the metabolism and increase muscle thereby increasing weightloss and/or improving strength to weight ratio.
* Weightlifing can improve weaknesses and complimentary muscles and thereby prevent weaknesses (e.g. tendonitis, shoulder injuries, etc.).
If you buy this logic, the check out Rockprodigy's training article and then find a weightlifting program for athletes (note that the set/rep scheme is different for athletes than bodybuilders) and integrate into your training schedule (you could start by searching on t-nation.com).

An alternative view: You don't know enough to make the right decision so learn more.
Okay, this might seem like I'm blasting you here, so try to read this with an open mind. As Bernard noted, 4 years isn't a long time. The fact that you 1) think you can't improve your technique much more and 2) don't know how to integrate a weight training program into your climbing program shows that you really need to understand training more.

First, the fact that you think you can't substantially improve your technique is a mental hurdle that you really need to blast through. Think about, one of the things that makes Chris Sharma such an amazing climber is that he's so humble. He never thinks he's learned all there is to know about how to move his body. He's always open to learning and because of that he tries things people would think are ridiculous.

Second, if you do go the weights route, there's a huge learning curve about how to train, eat, and rest that can't be distilled into a single post or thread. You're going to have to read a lot. You'll have to keep a training journal. You'll have to set specific goals. And you'll really have to monitor yourself so that you get the right amount of rest (the program you outlined at the start will simply lead to injury).

Finally, be honest with yourself about what it is you want. Dave Graham recently blogged about wanting to be stronger (and you can hear him psuedo-complaining about it in the recent Dosage vid). But is that what Dave really needs to break through to a higher level? Similarly, is that what you need or are you just climbing with guys with big biceps (like Dave climbing with Chris and Dani) and you think "if I had bigger biceps then I could climb that too." Honestly, I'm not sure what the answer is. Whatever you decide make sure that you're systematic and committed and that you are honest with yourself about why you made your decision.

Good luck.

Thanks for the response, I think I need to clairfy a few points. First, I really do know that I still have a lot to learn about technique and movements, I brought it up so that this didn't turn into a battering of "CLIMBING IS THE BEST TRAINING FOR CLIMBING!!!!" and other similarly useless advice.
Second, I'm not planning on keeping the schedule I outlined for long, Its more of a last ditch effort to get strong before Nationals. After nationals I'll still incorporate weight training into my schedule but I'll give myself more rest time.
Last of all I will try to be more honest with myself and acknowledging my weaknesses, but for the next month or so its just my last ditch effort to get strong enough to hopefully be competitive at Nationals.


(This post was edited by alpinerock on Jan 21, 2007, 9:29 PM)


raymondjeffrey


Jan 21, 2007, 10:17 PM
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Speaking as an expert you should Google the following: The Workout From Hell. It is THE best workout for developing both strength and endurance simultaneously.

The meek need not apply; this workout will beat 'cho ASS.

Carry on,

jefro


primus


Jan 21, 2007, 10:58 PM
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shimanilami wrote:
...I also recommend Arna Ilgner's "The Rock Warrior's Way". This has helped many climbers break through to the "next" level, especially those who thought it was simply their physical abilities that were holding them back. Also, the book offers methods for learning how to recognize how to improve, and that is a powerful tool.

Correct me if I'm wrong seeing as I haven't read that book (although I've considered getting it), but isnt' "The Rock Warrior's Way" a guide to breaking through mental barriers instead of physical?


shimanilami


Jan 22, 2007, 6:08 PM
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primus wrote:
shimanilami wrote:
...I also recommend Arna Ilgner's "The Rock Warrior's Way". This has helped many climbers break through to the "next" level, especially those who thought it was simply their physical abilities that were holding them back. Also, the book offers methods for learning how to recognize how to improve, and that is a powerful tool.

Correct me if I'm wrong seeing as I haven't read that book (although I've considered getting it), but isnt' "The Rock Warrior's Way" a guide to breaking through mental barriers instead of physical?

Yes. I think that is what I said, but I'll try to clarify the point I was trying to make. Removing mental barriers can enable more honest and effective assessments of what might be holding you back. Is it really how strong your lats are? Or is it your finger strength, your vision, your breathing, your core strength, your flexibility, etc.? I won't argue that it's not better to be stronger, but you might make bigger gains by focusing on what your real weaknesses are.

At any rate, you sound very much like me a few years back, and Ilgner's book helped me way more than the countless hours I spent trying to weight-lift my way to 5.12.

My $0.02.


(This post was edited by shimanilami on Jan 22, 2007, 6:10 PM)


shanz


Jan 22, 2007, 6:48 PM
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sidepull


Jan 22, 2007, 6:53 PM
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alpinerock -

I'd suggest against doing the Workout From Hell for now. I don't think you have enough time to really reap the benefits of periodized lifting.

Also, I'd suggest not doing the lifting right now - you're better off just climbing.

Here's the question I should have asked before my long diatribe:

How do you structure your time in the climbing gym?


primus


Jan 22, 2007, 10:49 PM
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shimanilami wrote:
primus wrote:
shimanilami wrote:
...I also recommend Arna Ilgner's "The Rock Warrior's Way". This has helped many climbers break through to the "next" level, especially those who thought it was simply their physical abilities that were holding them back. Also, the book offers methods for learning how to recognize how to improve, and that is a powerful tool.

Correct me if I'm wrong seeing as I haven't read that book (although I've considered getting it), but isnt' "The Rock Warrior's Way" a guide to breaking through mental barriers instead of physical?

Yes. I think that is what I said, but I'll try to clarify the point I was trying to make. Removing mental barriers can enable more honest and effective assessments of what might be holding you back. Is it really how strong your lats are? Or is it your finger strength, your vision, your breathing, your core strength, your flexibility, etc.? I won't argue that it's not better to be stronger, but you might make bigger gains by focusing on what your real weaknesses are.

At any rate, you sound very much like me a few years back, and Ilgner's book helped me way more than the countless hours I spent trying to weight-lift my way to 5.12.

My $0.02.

Yeah, I thought about what you wrote after I posted my reply and I realized that I misinterpreted what you said. For me, the mental aspect is certainly what's been holding me back. Sure, you need a certain level of strength to climb hard routes, but IMHO strength training is the easiest area to improve upon in climbing whereas the mental aspect is the most difficult. It's a very different type of discomfort you experience when breaking through mental barriers versus physical--we're used to the physical barriers. Sounds like Ilgner's book is one that I'll be getting pretty soon...thanks!


roy_hinkley_jr


Jan 22, 2007, 11:35 PM
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WFH is a brutal workout...but it's a poor choice for most climbers. If you're going to mix in weights with climbing, it will pay to do more research and customize your regimen. A good starting point for trad/alpine/big wall is "Climbing: Training for Peak Performance." For sport climbing, look at "Training for Climbing." And if you're going to focus on sport technique, go for the "Self-Coached Climber."


jeftone


Jan 22, 2007, 11:55 PM
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Maybe I can help. I am a personal trainer (specializing in sports conditioning) and a climber (although not a great one, just one that loves the sport.) Obviously, I think that there is great benefit in weight lifting or I would have a different job where I can make a living. Lifting for power would be quite helpful for climbing. I have noticed a huge change in my strength as it pertains to climbing. There are a number of things that can be done at the gym to promote muscle endurance, overall power, joint strength and coordination/balance. All of this is important. That being said, I have put on 5 pounds since I started lifting for power. Obviously that is detrimental to most climbers. As someone else mentioned, periodization is key when weight lifting. You won't plateau and you can try to lose any extra weight that you put on.
Having said all of this, lifting weights has not made my form or knowledge any better. I have to climb for that. What it does is makes you stronger, which, after practicing your sport, will, over time, make you a stronger climber (weight lifting translates slowly into sport strength).
One thing that I will suggest is that you perform compound movements like the bench press, weight pull ups (not pull downs), lunges, squats, and deadlfts as these are the most functional exercises there are. There could be a lot of other things that I may or may not recommend for you, but since I have no clue about who you are physically, I can't do it. You may want to consult with a personal trainer. Beware: not all personal trainer are good. Many think that they need to help you turn into a meat head. If they are certified through NASM, ACSM, or CSCS then they are probably good.

Hopefully that helps some.

A note in reply to "The Workout from Hell": Looking at the workout from a personal trainer's perspective, it needs some help, but has promise. John Long does leave out any leg work which I whole-heartedly disagree with. Also, you can't work your arms out the day after doing chest and back. Your biceps and triceps get worked out while doing any push or pull exercises (ie bench and lat pulldown). It would work as a split routine with a day off in between. Otherwise, you run the risk of overtraining. Besides, bicep and tricep exercises do little to build overall conditioning. More focus needs to be put on the multijoint exercises. His periodization is good and would keep you from plateauing. In addition, the grueling nature of the workouts would bring your conditioning up about 10 notches.
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(This post was edited by jeftone on Jan 23, 2007, 12:11 AM)


alpinerock


Jan 23, 2007, 4:45 PM
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sidepull wrote:
Here's the question I should have asked before my long diatribe:

How do you structure your time in the climbing gym?

My time usually is broken down something like this
warm up on easy routes for about two hours (progressively, starting with 10+ and working my way up into the mid 12's) usually about 10/15 minutes rest inbetween burns.
take 20 minutes off, then get on shorter finger intensive TR routes for another hour with 10 minute breaks.
After that I usually head upstairs and boulder, working primarily on onsiting mid-range problems. After an hour of that I get on steeper stuff and try to climb as slow and static as possible, locking off on every hold.

thats the basic breakdown, somedays i mix it up but thats the gist of it.


sidepull


Jan 23, 2007, 6:35 PM
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Okay,

It's sad, but I miss climbing at the Quarry - good gym.

If you're goal is improve for nationals I'd recommend AGAINST using weight lifting as a tool for improving short-term performance. I think if you re-tooled your time inside the gym you could see huge gains.

Please, for your own sake, get the Self Coached Climber and read the sample schedule for 5.13 climbers. You'll realize that your current schedule omits a lot of training strategies that could really help. I'd bet if you followed the schedule that you wouldn't have any desire to lift weights - it just physically wouldn't be possible. On top of that, you could really hone your technique in a systematic way.

Good luck at nationals,

Side


alpinerock


Jan 23, 2007, 11:24 PM
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Okay thanks for the advice! I'll pick up a copy as soon as possible, and for now at least i'll drop the wieght training.

and yeah the quarry is awesome! well the routes are, i'm not a fan of the current bouldering but all well.


miademus


Jan 24, 2007, 10:44 AM
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that what you said about before i can just agree...


alpinerock, i'm surely not a gd climber as you are, but you should really check out the self coached climber, you'll probably be known with more then 2/3 of the book, but the training schedules given, and the whole precice drescribtions are priceless, i have to admit that weight lifting is not a part of it.


alpinerock


Mar 6, 2007, 7:10 PM
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Well since starting this thread i've purchased a copy of the self coached climber. The in depth discussion on technique was interesting but i still opted to go on with the training program i outlined earlier. I'm now a firm believer and advocate of incorporating weight training into my climbing. I've seen amazing improvements since I started. I am running laps on my old projects and I am a lot more powerful on my new projects than i thought was possible for me. My redpoint and onsite have both jumped a number grade for routes (and i'm not talking about 5.10 to 5.11 either..) and my bouldering has significantlly improved.


sidepull


Mar 7, 2007, 1:59 AM
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care to post the parameters of your routine?

lifts, sets, reps, days on/off?


mark29


Mar 7, 2007, 3:46 AM
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You improved 4 letter grades in 2 months? Are you sure you haven't been taking steroiids?


alpinerock


Mar 7, 2007, 6:17 PM
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sidepull wrote:
care to post the parameters of your routine?

lifts, sets, reps, days on/off?

I lifted weights twice a week, usually tuesdays and saturdays (usually after climbing on saturdays), i climbed mondays, wednesdays, fridays, and sometimes saturdays.

my weight training went something like this:

3 sets of 4-7 reps on the isometric lat pull down (100 lbs with each hand)

3 sets still 4-7 reps on this other pull machine that i'm note sure what its called but it worked right underneath my shoulder joint, like almost inside my shoulder. (its an isometric machine that has rotating handles that let your arm rotate from palms away to palms towards everytime you pull)

3 sets on the oblique machine (usually about 10 reps per set) (3 sets for both sides, IE 3 left to right and then 3 right to left)

3 sets of dips (usually about ten per set)

3 sets of heavy finger rolls (4-7 per set, usually about 190? Lbs)

and then at the end i would do one arm pullups on the assisted pullup machine until exahaustion.

Thats a summary of it, i have an excel document charting everything if anyone has any specific questions. I should also add that i took a week off before nationals and then two weeks off afterwards, and it was only after this rest period that the gains that i mentioned earlier took place.

3 sets on the ab machine


dece


Mar 7, 2007, 6:36 PM
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trainingforclimbing.com


sidepull


Mar 7, 2007, 6:41 PM
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well done!

I think you'll want to be sure to vary your lifts every 4-6 weeks (your body needs variety or else your progress will stagnate). You can do this by making very slight variations (e.g. palms away, palms forward) or switch to different lifts altogether. Also, I think you did a great job of not adding too much lifting into your climbing.


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