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kane_schutzman
Jan 27, 2007, 4:30 AM
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What are everyones preferences for snow anchors. Pickets and Deadmans? Thanks!
Length and Brand would be helpful
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anykineclimb
Jan 27, 2007, 6:18 AM
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well... a picket can be used as a deadman...
and of course...
IT DEPENDS (R)
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climbingaggie03
Jan 27, 2007, 7:12 AM
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I'm guessing your wondering whether to buy pickets or deadman anchors, and the answer is probably pickets. Deadmen are only useful in soft snow, pickets aren't ideal for soft snow, but you can bury them like to use them like deadmen in soft snow.
It depends on what you are going to use them for, but personally, I use pickets.
I have the 2 ft MSR pickets, but I like the omega pacific pickets cause they are curved a little. I heard someone say that a 3 foot picket isn't any more secure than a 2 foot picket, I don't know about that, but it is more unweildy than a 2 foot picket.
(This post was edited by climbingaggie03 on Jan 27, 2007, 7:15 AM)
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altelis
Jan 27, 2007, 7:27 AM
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i think you mean pickets or flukes, b/c as was said picket is a type of protection and deadman is a way of placing a type of protection.
you can place a picket as a picket (in good snow, stomp down the snow and drive the picket straight in with your axe) or as a deadman (in less good snow, stomp down the snow, dig out a trough perp to the fall line, place the picket in horizontal thereby greatly increasing the strength of the placement)
which you buy, picket or flukes COMPLETELY DEPENDS on the type of snow you will be climbing....is is maritime or continental snow pack (wet or dry), summer spring or winter?
we need to know all this to help you decide.....
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kane_schutzman
Jan 27, 2007, 7:39 AM
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Well, I am planning on Rainier whenever I get the chance.It will be my first, and if I can't find somebody, then I will probably be guided. Either way, I like to have all my own gear, and if anything be able to tool around with it there. Its along ways away, but I am ticking off items on a list I have, and this was next......I do realize I messed up on the name guys, I have read about them in Freedom of the hills, I just was speeding through and the last Fluke, that I looked at was the Dmm Deadman
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climbingaggie03
Jan 27, 2007, 2:27 PM
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If you're going to rainier, definitely pickets. and maybe an ice screw.
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altelis
Jan 27, 2007, 4:45 PM
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defininitely pickets and possibly ice screws, as was said, for ranier
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kixx
Jan 27, 2007, 8:33 PM
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The only snow fluke I ever used on Rainier was to rap off of and I was really glad to leave it there - it's a real pain in the ass to rack. Also, it won't do anything that a picket can't. Having it bang around on my harness nearly caused a fall on more than one occation. To make it work right it must be placed perfectly - another pain in the ass.
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kane_schutzman
Jan 27, 2007, 8:38 PM
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Edited to exclude my dumbass questions.
But I still need to know what what sizes and how many are necessary.
Here are the two different ones I am looking at,
The things I like about OP is that they appear to be powdercoated Yellow. That coating should be very durable. The bad part is that they are heavier than MSR.
I also consider weight to be a big part of the decision. If I go with 4 MSR 24" then I will save 1.5 lbs over 4 OP 24" Pickets. Thats a good bit of weight that would add up fast. This assuming that 4 Pickets are necessay.
http://www.gearexpress.biz/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=G&Product_Code=6840
I like that the MSR Pickets are light, and amoung the lightest from what I understand. Not sure if its true or not but MSR claims a 20% better holding power.
http://www.gearexpress.biz/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=G&Product_Code=6280
Why do I complicate things, and break things down!
(This post was edited by kane_schutzman on Jan 27, 2007, 9:37 PM)
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jasona
Jan 28, 2007, 1:36 AM
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I like the MSRs. I only use the 2ft as 3ft is overkill for my applications. Not sure why you would need 4. I took two on Ranier and was fine.
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mikew
Jan 28, 2007, 7:42 AM
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Interesting read on snow anchors. Scroll down and look for the technical paper pdf
http://www.nzlsar.org.nz/
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graniteboy
Jan 29, 2007, 2:20 AM
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Given the fact that, if you pay attention, you're very unlikely to ever have to actually use these things on the mighty mighty Raineer, I'd recommend that every member just always carry a 2 ft picket, and keep it handy. I'd use the lighter ones. This method has worked well for me in the alaska range...
You'd be surprised at how much of a pain in the ass it is for you to get one of these puppies out, whacked in, and used as part of a z rig anchor in the event of your bro taking a crevasse fall, so try not to leave the damned thing clipped into the back of your pack when you're tromping around on crevassed terrain. Practice, and see what works for you in terms of where/how to keep it handy.
Flukes: Flukes are damn near useless in just about all conditions. But they look SO cool. And I just LOVE those cute little cables. They tend not to work when shock loaded, even when placed perfectly...so just forget about them.
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kixx
Jan 30, 2007, 5:04 PM
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That's a great info paper on snow anchors MikeW, thanks for the great read.
Most people use the MSRs and I think they do the job just fine with a 2 foot picket - every person on a Rainier team should have 2 of them.
And if you are paying attention you will know when they need to be used and please don't hesitate to request that your teammates start a running belay. Please read the accident report document attached to this post to see why these are needed for much more than crevasse rescue.
Climbers pass them off as not being very secure, too slow to place, and not worth it. This is all untrue b/c with practice they are quick, secure, and life saving. Many many people havce died on Rainier and Denali who would still be here if they had bothered to set up a running belay with snow pickets.
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Attachments:
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Accidents.doc
(71.0 KB)
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kane_schutzman
Jan 30, 2007, 5:26 PM
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Indeed it is great, and I have not even finished it yet. Kixx, I read about running belays in freedom of the hills. I have a simple question really. From what I remembered all they showed in the Running belay Section, were running belays using pickets and setup deadman pickets. What all should be used on a running belay is what I am asking. Is anything fair? Srews, hexes, cams, pickets, flukes? Is it right to assume that running belays are mainly pickets? Running belays are usually used on open snow feilds, right? Sorry if this doesnt make since, I am having a hard time explaining myself..
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Adk
Jan 30, 2007, 5:54 PM
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Thanks for the link. I will be sure to pass it on.
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big_red
Jan 30, 2007, 7:39 PM
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Don't pay the $15 per picket that they are charging now. Just go down to a bulk metal distributer and you can buy BIG pieces of aluminum angle stock or T stock the same size as those pickets. Cut it to the height of your pack, drill a couple holes in it, sharpen the lead edge if you like, and have bomber pickets for about 1/3 the price...
And when it comes to snow anchors down't forget the multitasking you can do.
(e.g. my shovel handle is a custom piece that I made from larger diameter tubing that I cut down the middle with a bandsaw, drills holes to rig it, and welded a reducer so my shovel blade will fit into it. What this made is essentially 2 pickets at my disposal should I ever need them in an emergency. I also have some holes in the shovel blade and webbing inside the shaft so the blade can be used as an anchor as well. The cool side bonus is that now my shovel shaft is just big enough that I can store my probe inside it.)
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kixx
Jan 30, 2007, 8:36 PM
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A running belay fits in the category of belays including self belay, running belay, pitched belay.
A running belay can be used on rock, snow or ice climbing and is called such becouse all climbers on the rope team are moving together, carefull to keep no loose slack in the rope between them while the leader places gear (cams, nuts, screws, pickets,) at intervals and clips the rope into them. After the leader has run out of gear then she sets up a belay station and uses her belay device to bring the rest of the rope team in. The last climber on the rope gathers all the gear as he passes it and once he reaches the belay stance set up by the leader the process begins again by belaying the leader back out with a belay device until the rope is tight, and then the rest follow. In this way the rope team can cover more ground in less time than if they had set up pitches from belay stance to belay stance. The problem is that if one team member falls the rest of the team will likely be pulled off. With good gear in place it will hold the whole team and they can begin climbing again.
On a slope that has ideal snow conditions that you are sure you can hold your own fall with various self arrest techniques then you would unrope and simply self arrest in the event that you caught a crampon or slipped or something.
On a snow slope that is iced up badly, or is above a dangerous vertical drop where you might not succeed with a self arrest it would be wise for the team to rope up and use a running belay.
If the slope angle increases further and self arrest is certainly not possible, and slips are more likely. then the team should elect to climb in pitches from fixed belay stances since slipping followers will likely pull the leader off.
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greenketch
Feb 5, 2007, 10:47 PM
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Kane strictly as a side note. You mentioned going guided if you can't find a partner. I would suggest a thought as to route and guide company just in case. Then go to their site and get whatever they have on there list. Most guide companies are a little pickiy and you will need to meet there requirements. If you find a partner they won't care much as long as you have something that works.
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graniteboy
Feb 6, 2007, 12:56 AM
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I would argue that, although the NZ snow anchor paper is a good start on understanding snow anchor strengths, the fact that the loads were applied statically rather than dynamically will severely limit the usefulness of these data.
In regards to the comment on how "many people would be alive if they had just" used running belays with snow anchors....I concur, conditionally.
I have seen more than a few body recoveries at the bottom of the denali pass traverse, etc etc etc.......on the other hand, if those dumb bastards who died on that traverse had actually paid their dues, trained hard, and learned how to move in the montane environment more carefully/smoothly/efficiently, not one of them would be dead. I don't think that anyone who has climbed for less than 10 years should be allowed on the big mountain.
And I guess that would be the main advice I'd give to our original poster: Pay yer dues, climb lots of small mountains, then work up to the bigger stuff. You'd be surprised at how few questions you'd hafta bring up in here if you followed a good alpinist around as an apprentice for a few years. Just going out off the couch and hopping on raineer without doing some mountains with some more forgiving conditions, smaller glaciers, etc, seems like putting the cart before the horse. The other method will be worth it's weight in gold.
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highangle
Feb 14, 2007, 7:36 PM
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Pickets and flukes both have their place, but pickets first, esp. for Rainier. Steer clear of the Omega Pacifics- I thought a couple of cheapo 3 footers would be great. Shoulda bought steel fenceposts - they would be lighter. MSR 2' is perfect for everything I have done.
A metal shovel blade can sub for a fluke, if placed right. For that matter, you can use a pack, stuff sack, etc. as a deadman.
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