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scotchie
Mar 27, 2007, 11:05 PM
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If I start a climb, place one piece of pro, fall, lower to the ground, then lead the route clean - does it still count as a redpoint?
The question at issue is, the first piece was not cleaned and then placed again during the 2nd attempt.
PS: Not that I really care about style, but I don't want to mistate any facts in the ascent log.
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vanclimber
Mar 27, 2007, 11:13 PM
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If we are talking about trad protection, then I believe it is commonly referred to as a "pinkpoint." If you were sport climbing then it counts as a redpoint.
If you were to record it as a redpoint in the ascent log (I don't think there is a pinkpoint category yet) I don't think anyone will shoot you for entering it as a redpoint.
(This post was edited by vanclimber on Mar 27, 2007, 11:16 PM)
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legion
Mar 27, 2007, 11:21 PM
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If its a cam just pull the trigger a little and wiggle it as you reach the piece. Then it counts as a redpoint.
If it's not a cam you will have to take it out and put it back in. But you probably shouldn't place a nut as your first piece, anyway.
An alternative would be to place two more pieces nearby, equalize them, and belay.
(This post was edited by legion on Mar 27, 2007, 11:23 PM)
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summerprophet
Mar 27, 2007, 11:24 PM
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I never saw the point of recording accents unless they were the first.
If I do 100 redpoints can I send them in somewhere and get a prize?
Will BD give me a free nut tool? Sweeeeeeet I can say I am a sponsored climber.
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devils_advocate
Mar 27, 2007, 11:40 PM
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summerprophet wrote: I never saw the point of recording accents unless they were the first. If I do 100 redpoints can I send them in somewhere and get a prize?
Nope, you just get credit. I posted up a question some time ago asking for the address of the association to send it to, but nobody replied.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...ost=1389461;#1389461
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caughtinside
Mar 28, 2007, 12:00 AM
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here's something to think about...
on the patagonia website there is a vid of katie brown freeclimbign the leaning tower. On the video, she takes a fall.
You next see her attempting the same move. She doesn't clip the cam that was there from her earlier attempt... she places an identical cam right next to it and clips that one. I can't remember if she removed the first cam or not.
Anyway, that's a level of style that I'm not really interested in, it would never have occurred to me to place a piece right next to one that's already in. but to each their own, climb in the style you like.
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dlintz
Mar 28, 2007, 12:41 AM
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You should care about style, your credibility is at stake.
Delete it from your log and return for another attempt. If you should happen to fall again after placing that first piece remove it immediately, walk at least 100 feet away from the route, remove your harness and rack, walk another 100 feet from your gear and wait at least 30 minutes. Now collect your stuff and go get that redpoint tiger. 
d.
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jt512
Mar 28, 2007, 12:45 AM
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scotchie wrote: If I start a climb, place one piece of pro, fall, lower to the ground, then lead the route clean - does it still count as a redpoint?
Technically, no. It's a yo-yo ascent.
Jay
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ajkclay
Mar 28, 2007, 1:40 AM
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legion wrote: But you probably shouldn't place a nut as your first piece, anyway.
I'm probably walking straight into a troll but...
Why not?
Adam
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zealotnoob
Mar 28, 2007, 2:00 AM
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The multi-directionality of your first piece is key in preventing the zipper effect. Oppose that nut and ye should be fine.
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ajkclay
Mar 28, 2007, 2:05 AM
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zealotnoob wrote: The multi-directionality of your first piece is key in preventing the zipper effect. Oppose that nut and ye should be fine.
??? What? What nut? How does one know the directional pull of a hypothetical nut in a hypothetical crack?
A nut placed as the first piece and oriented correctly for the anticipated direction of fall should not need an opposing piece...
I use nuts as a first piece often.
Cheers
Adam
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jt512
Mar 28, 2007, 2:53 AM
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ajkclay wrote: zealotnoob wrote: The multi-directionality of your first piece is key in preventing the zipper effect. Oppose that nut and ye should be fine. ??? What? What nut? How does one know the directional pull of a hypothetical nut in a hypothetical crack? A nut placed as the first piece and oriented correctly for the anticipated direction of fall should not need an opposing piece... I use nuts as a first piece often.
R.I.P.
Jay
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miavzero
Mar 28, 2007, 3:35 AM
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jt512 wrote: scotchie wrote: If I start a climb, place one piece of pro, fall, lower to the ground, then lead the route clean - does it still count as a redpoint? Technically, no. It's a yo-yo ascent. Jay
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jt512
Mar 28, 2007, 3:37 AM
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miavzero wrote: jt512 wrote: scotchie wrote: If I start a climb, place one piece of pro, fall, lower to the ground, then lead the route clean - does it still count as a redpoint? Technically, no. It's a yo-yo ascent. Jay Jay is correct. This tactic is sometimes referred to as a brown point.
I thought a brown point was when you make it the top, but were so scared you...well...you know, like a yellow point, but worse.
Jay
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vanclimber
Mar 28, 2007, 4:50 AM
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jt512 wrote: ajkclay wrote: zealotnoob wrote: The multi-directionality of your first piece is key in preventing the zipper effect. Oppose that nut and ye should be fine. ??? What? What nut? How does one know the directional pull of a hypothetical nut in a hypothetical crack? A nut placed as the first piece and oriented correctly for the anticipated direction of fall should not need an opposing piece... I use nuts as a first piece often. R.I.P. Jay
 Go take a gear placement class Clay
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jt512
Mar 28, 2007, 4:54 AM
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vanclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: ajkclay wrote: zealotnoob wrote: The multi-directionality of your first piece is key in preventing the zipper effect. Oppose that nut and ye should be fine. ??? What? What nut? How does one know the directional pull of a hypothetical nut in a hypothetical crack? A nut placed as the first piece and oriented correctly for the anticipated direction of fall should not need an opposing piece... I use nuts as a first piece often. R.I.P. Jay Go take a gear placement class Clay
Back in the day, I swear, people used to know shit before they led trad.
Jay
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vegastradguy
Mar 28, 2007, 4:54 AM
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vanclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: ajkclay wrote: zealotnoob wrote: The multi-directionality of your first piece is key in preventing the zipper effect. Oppose that nut and ye should be fine. ??? What? What nut? How does one know the directional pull of a hypothetical nut in a hypothetical crack? A nut placed as the first piece and oriented correctly for the anticipated direction of fall should not need an opposing piece... I use nuts as a first piece often. R.I.P. Jay Go take a gear placement class Clay
take one yourself- jay's right. if you dont know why- ask.
as for the style- as long as you pulled the rope, i wouldnt lose any sleep calling it a redpoint.
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vanclimber
Mar 28, 2007, 4:59 AM
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Maybe I should clarify that I meant that Adam should take a gear class. (I wrote "Clay" not "Jay")
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jt512
Mar 28, 2007, 5:01 AM
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vegastradguy wrote: vanclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: ajkclay wrote: zealotnoob wrote: The multi-directionality of your first piece is key in preventing the zipper effect. Oppose that nut and ye should be fine. ??? What? What nut? How does one know the directional pull of a hypothetical nut in a hypothetical crack? A nut placed as the first piece and oriented correctly for the anticipated direction of fall should not need an opposing piece... I use nuts as a first piece often. R.I.P. Jay Go take a gear placement class Clay take one yourself- jay's right. if you dont know why- ask.
I think he was agreeing with me.
Anyone who doesn't understand the risk of placing an unopposed nut as the first piece has no business being on the sharp end on a trad route. He should read a fucking book, take a class, get mentored, or do something other than try to learn trad on the internet, by trial and error, or by the method of gumby innovation.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Mar 28, 2007, 5:04 AM)
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curt
Mar 28, 2007, 5:32 AM
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jt512 wrote: scotchie wrote: If I start a climb, place one piece of pro, fall, lower to the ground, then lead the route clean - does it still count as a redpoint? Technically, no. It's a yo-yo ascent. Jay
As I think someone else said, it depends whether or not you pull the rope down before leading the route clean. If you do, most people will call it a legit ascent. If you don't--it's a "yo-yo" ascent. Still OK--but less good style. The "red," "pink," etc. categories don't really apply to trad climbing all that well.
Curt
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brent_e
Mar 28, 2007, 6:32 AM
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jt512 wrote: ajkclay wrote: zealotnoob wrote: The multi-directionality of your first piece is key in preventing the zipper effect. Oppose that nut and ye should be fine.
??? What? What nut? How does one know the directional pull of a hypothetical nut in a hypothetical crack? A nut placed as the first piece and oriented correctly for the anticipated direction of fall should not need an opposing piece... I use nuts as a first piece often. R.I.P. Jay
Trust me, buddy, we know.
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mtselman
Mar 28, 2007, 4:00 PM
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vanclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: ajkclay wrote: zealotnoob wrote: The multi-directionality of your first piece is key in preventing the zipper effect. Oppose that nut and ye should be fine. ??? What? What nut? How does one know the directional pull of a hypothetical nut in a hypothetical crack? A nut placed as the first piece and oriented correctly for the anticipated direction of fall should not need an opposing piece... I use nuts as a first piece often. R.I.P. Jay Go take a gear placement class Clay
In a gear placemenrt class the first thing they should teach you is to consider the "direction of pull (or force)". That is exactly what Clay said. For example, a nut placed in a horizontal crack, slotted behind a couple of good features in the crack will be a perfect first piece, not subject to any zipper effect. There are also cases where you just do not have any option other than placing a single nut in a less then perfect way. In this case, the belayer should be aware and position himslef right under the piece at least until a next piece is placed by the leader (hopefully multidirectional) - this will also minimize the possibility of a zip effect.
--Misha
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Proto
Mar 28, 2007, 4:09 PM
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the only true style is naked, shoeless, chalkless, free soloing. In refrence to a clean lead style, who cares, stop recording your routes in a log just so you can look back oneday and realize you sucked.
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diophantus
Mar 28, 2007, 4:41 PM
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jt512 wrote: vegastradguy wrote: vanclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: ajkclay wrote: zealotnoob wrote: The multi-directionality of your first piece is key in preventing the zipper effect. Oppose that nut and ye should be fine. ??? What? What nut? How does one know the directional pull of a hypothetical nut in a hypothetical crack? A nut placed as the first piece and oriented correctly for the anticipated direction of fall should not need an opposing piece... I use nuts as a first piece often. R.I.P. Jay Go take a gear placement class Clay take one yourself- jay's right. if you dont know why- ask. I think he was agreeing with me. Anyone who doesn't understand the risk of placing an unopposed nut as the first piece has no business being on the sharp end on a trad route. He should read a fucking book, take a class, get mentored, or do something other than try to learn trad on the internet, by trial and error, or by the method of gumby innovation. Jay
I learned by doing, someone handed me a trad rack and said "go lead that crack"; wouldn't exactly call him a mentor. I say use your own judgment, if you can't tell the difference between a bad placement and a good one you probably shouldn't be trad climbing anyway.
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