|
|
|
|
USnavy
Jan 21, 2009, 1:04 PM
Post #1 of 36
(13610 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 6, 2007
Posts: 2667
|
I am looking for options to save weight on multi-pitch climbs. I have purchased lighter cams, a lighter helmet, lighter clothes, lighter carabiners, lighter slings, a lighter pack and a lighter rope. So now I am trying to figure out how to scrap the heaviest thing on the climb, the second rope. I know I could get a set of half ropes but I don’t climb multi-pitch routes enough for them to be price efficient.
So someone suggested I replace my second rope with 60m of 6mm cordlet and do a double rope rap with my lead rope and the cordlet. I was told to put the knot on the right side of the rap chains and thread the lead rope from right to left through the chains so if the cordlet started to slip through the belay device excessively, the knot would prevent the rope from pulling through the chains / rap ring. So even if the cordlet failed, I would not loose my main rope and I would remain safe (assuming the rap ring is not large enough to pass a knot).
I have also heard that you can do the same thing but with 3mm cordlet instead and do a single rope rap and use the 3mm cordlet to pull the main rope down.
So has anyone tried either of these methods before? Anyone have any other suggestions?
(This post was edited by USnavy on Jan 21, 2009, 2:07 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
yodadave
Jan 21, 2009, 1:10 PM
Post #2 of 36
(13599 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 11, 2008
Posts: 510
|
unless your BD is rated for super skinny ropes I wouldn't do it with anything less than 7mm
maybe look at the bugette DMM i think i think you can use skinnies in it.
|
|
|
|
|
ajkclay
Jan 21, 2009, 1:23 PM
Post #3 of 36
(13591 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 9, 2002
Posts: 1567
|
I would not condone rape in any circumstance regardless of the rope you have.
(This post was edited by ajkclay on Jan 21, 2009, 1:24 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
colatownkid
Jan 21, 2009, 1:43 PM
Post #4 of 36
(13571 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2007
Posts: 512
|
USnavy wrote: I am looking for options to save weight on multi-pitch climbs. I have purchased lighter cams, a lighter helmet, lighter clothes, lighter carabiners, lighter slings, a lighter pack and a lighter rope. So now I am trying to figure out how to scrap the heaviest thing on the climb, the second rope. I know I could get a set of half ropes but I don’t climb multi-pitch routes enough for them to be price efficient. So someone suggested I replace my second rope with 60m of 6mm cordlet and do a double rope rap with my lead rope and the cordlet. I was told to put the knot on the right side of the rap chains and thread the lead rope from right to left through the chains so if the cordlet started to slip through the belay device excessively, the knot would prevent the rope from pulling through the chains / rap ring. So even if the cordlet failed, I would not loose my main rope and I would remain safe (assuming the rap ring is not large enough to pass a knot). I have also heard that you can do the same thing but with 3mm cordlet instead and do a single rope rap and use the 3mm cordlet to pull the main rope down. So has anyone tried either of these methods before? Anyone have any other suggestions?
as stated above, fix the thread title. it's nothing personal, i just don't like seeing the word "rape" all the time.
as for the 3mm thing, that seems like it might be a bit too skinny. i've heard of using 7mm and 8mm tag lines before, but never 3mm. at least for rapping anyway.
what you could do is use the 3mm cord not as a rappel line but as a pull line. basically, you rig it like this:
take your single rope and thread the end of it through the rings, lets say left to right. tie a figure 8 on a bight on the right hand side of the rope (the short side). clip a locker onto the bight. clip the locker back to the left side of the rope. you now have a single rope rappel set up with a "loop" at the top. this is a little better than just trusting your knot to jam against the rap rings in my opinion. the final step: tie your 3mm cord to the locking carabiner. when you're done doing your single rope rappel, just use the 3mm line to retrieve the rope by pulling on it. you don't actually rap on the thing. the only annoying part would be if your super-skinny 3mm cord broke while pulling due to rock rub, etc. even if that happens though, you know you can always just jug up the single line and do a bunch of 30m raps, albeit at the cost of much gear.
|
|
|
|
|
altelis
Jan 21, 2009, 1:55 PM
Post #5 of 36
(13548 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 2168
|
DO A F#$KING SEARCH!! I'M NOT EVEN SURE I CAN EXPRESS HOW ANNOYING YOU'VE BECOME
I HAD THIS VERY QUESTION AND THERE ARE !3! GOOD THREADS ON THIS SUBJECT WITH MYRIAD OPTIONS LAID OUT WITH GOOD DEBATES ON THE PROS AND CONS.
SO GOOD I HAVE THEM BOOKMARKED- BUT JUST TO DEMONSTRATE HOW ANNOYING YOU ARE BEING I REFUSE TO GIVE YOU LINKS
GOOD I HATE TOOLS WHO TYPE IN "ALL-CAPS"
OH, AND THOSE A$$HOLES WHO USE "QUOTATION MARKS" INAPPROPRIATELY!!!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
billl7
Jan 21, 2009, 2:07 PM
Post #6 of 36
(13537 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1890
|
The below recently active thread may address some of your questions:
Rap rope question
And here's another:
double rope rappel alternatives?
From my view: 3mm is rediculously small. 6mm is sometimes very hard to pull (depends on the anchor set-up/location) although this is usually the tag line I take. 7mm might be a happy medium. And handle those skinny lines with care!
Bill L
|
|
|
|
|
USnavy
Jan 21, 2009, 2:11 PM
Post #7 of 36
(13531 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 6, 2007
Posts: 2667
|
altelis wrote: DO A F#$KING SEARCH!! I'M NOT EVEN SURE I CAN EXPRESS HOW ANNOYING YOU'VE BECOME I HAD THIS VERY QUESTION AND THERE ARE !3! GOOD THREADS ON THIS SUBJECT WITH MYRIAD OPTIONS LAID OUT WITH GOOD DEBATES ON THE PROS AND CONS. SO GOOD I HAVE THEM BOOKMARKED- BUT JUST TO DEMONSTRATE HOW ANNOYING YOU ARE BEING I REFUSE TO GIVE YOU LINKS GOOD I HATE TOOLS WHO TYPE IN "ALL-CAPS" OH, AND THOSE A$$HOLES WHO USE "QUOTATION MARKS" INAPPROPRIATELY!!!!!!
Sounds like someone has some insecurity issues.  The day that I flip out over someone else's post on the Internet is the day I know I have lost all sense of being as I know it...
(This post was edited by USnavy on Jan 21, 2009, 2:19 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
billl7
Jan 21, 2009, 2:11 PM
Post #8 of 36
(13526 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 13, 2005
Posts: 1890
|
USnavy wrote: So even if the cordlet failed, I would not loose my main rope and I would remain safe (assuming the rap ring is not large enough to pass a knot).
|
|
|
|
|
markc
Jan 21, 2009, 2:19 PM
Post #9 of 36
(13514 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2481
|
Super-skinny pull strands can save weight, but they come with their own risks. When you rig the rappel so the knot jams against the anchor, you're pulling your thin line. If your rope gets jammed up once the lead line is beyond reach, you're left with the thin cord in your hands.
If I recall correctly, the OP is planning to do some of his first multipitch leading in Red Rocks. Red Rocks is famous for rope-eating rappels, so it's not the place where I'd suggest experimenting with an ultra-thin pull line. If weight is a large concern, go with an ultra-skinny single strand rope. As it is, I'd advise you to dial back the technical difficulty of your climbing on this trip. Routefinding, conservation of gear, and other issues you've brought up seem much more important than shaving weight.
|
|
|
|
|
moose_droppings
Jan 21, 2009, 3:10 PM
Post #10 of 36
(13463 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 7, 2005
Posts: 3371
|
colatownkid wrote: basically, you rig it like this: take your single rope and thread the end of it through the rings, lets say left to right. tie a figure 8 on a bight on the right hand side of the rope (the short side). clip a locker onto the bight. clip the locker back to the left side of the rope. you now have a single rope rappel set up with a "loop" at the top. this is a little better than just trusting your knot to jam against the rap rings in my opinion. the final step: tie your 3mm cord to the locking carabiner. when you're done doing your single rope rappel, just use the 3mm line to retrieve the rope by pulling on it. you don't actually rap on the thing. the only annoying part would be if your super-skinny 3mm cord broke while pulling due to rock rub, etc. even if that happens though, you know you can always just jug up the single line and do a bunch of 30m raps, albeit at the cost of much gear.
This is my preferred method if using a small diameter line for full length raps. But like anyway of doing it there are cons too.
Beware once your main line is pulled up out of reach and your line now gets stuck, your in a world of hurt if all your holding in your hands is a 3mm. Its also very near impossible to get the pull started sometimes, using a 3mm is cutting it close if your yanking on it for all your worth.
Just buck up and take a second line large enough use if needed.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Jan 21, 2009, 3:17 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Jan 21, 2009, 3:23 PM
Post #11 of 36
(13447 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
I'm going to go ahead and say a 3mm won't work. I bet you could break it if it got so much as a nick in it.
The 6mm is fine. Even with that a long super skinny cord is a mess you're probably not counting on.
You'll spend the night on top of the solar slab on this trip. It'll be a growing experience.
|
|
|
|
|
epoch
Moderator
Jan 21, 2009, 4:25 PM
Post #12 of 36
(13388 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2005
Posts: 32163
|
USnavy wrote: altelis wrote: DO A F#$KING SEARCH!! I'M NOT EVEN SURE I CAN EXPRESS HOW ANNOYING YOU'VE BECOME I HAD THIS VERY QUESTION AND THERE ARE !3! GOOD THREADS ON THIS SUBJECT WITH MYRIAD OPTIONS LAID OUT WITH GOOD DEBATES ON THE PROS AND CONS. SO GOOD I HAVE THEM BOOKMARKED- BUT JUST TO DEMONSTRATE HOW ANNOYING YOU ARE BEING I REFUSE TO GIVE YOU LINKS GOOD I HATE TOOLS WHO TYPE IN "ALL-CAPS" OH, AND THOSE A$$HOLES WHO USE "QUOTATION MARKS" INAPPROPRIATELY!!!!!! Sounds like someone has some insecurity issues. The day that I flip out over someone else's post on the Internet is the day I know I have lost all sense of being as I know it...
There was merit in altelis' post. And, Angry's sig is apropriate.
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Jan 21, 2009, 5:04 PM
Post #13 of 36
(13358 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
while i do trail an 8.6mm line for double rope rappels (i dont like the idea of counting on a pull line- if i'm carrying a rope, i want to be able to lead on it in a pinch. hell, even a single 7.6mm twin would be better than a pull cord), more often than not, a 70m line will do just fine for raps- especially here in RR, i can only think of one route i've climbed lately that needed a second rope for rappel.
|
|
|
|
|
granite_grrl
Jan 21, 2009, 6:38 PM
Post #14 of 36
(13318 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 25, 2002
Posts: 15084
|
vegastradguy wrote: while i do trail an 8.6mm line for double rope rappels (i dont like the idea of counting on a pull line- if i'm carrying a rope, i want to be able to lead on it in a pinch. hell, even a single 7.6mm twin would be better than a pull cord), more often than not, a 70m line will do just fine for raps- especially here in RR, i can only think of one route i've climbed lately that needed a second rope for rappel.
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Jan 21, 2009, 6:42 PM
Post #15 of 36
(13311 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
granite_grrl wrote: vegastradguy wrote: while i do trail an 8.6mm line for double rope rappels (i dont like the idea of counting on a pull line- if i'm carrying a rope, i want to be able to lead on it in a pinch. hell, even a single 7.6mm twin would be better than a pull cord), more often than not, a 70m line will do just fine for raps- especially here in RR, i can only think of one route i've climbed lately that needed a second rope for rappel. That's some good beta there. I've always just trailed a line or used a set of doubles out there, but I think our next rope is going to be a 70m regardless.
yeah- i mean even on a route like Levitation, a new 70m works. an 60m and one bail biner would also work- which i'd much rather do than lug a 7lb trail line up to that monster.
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Jan 21, 2009, 6:42 PM
Post #16 of 36
(13311 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
USE SORBAT SOL RAP KIT $ 19.99 plus S&H
|
|
|
|
|
majid_sabet
Jan 21, 2009, 6:45 PM
Post #17 of 36
(13306 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 13, 2002
Posts: 8390
|
angry wrote: I'm going to go ahead and say a 3mm won't work. I bet you could break it if it got so much as a nick in it. The 6mm is fine. Even with that a long super skinny cord is a mess you're probably not counting on. You'll spend the night on top of the solar slab on this trip. It'll be a growing experience.
you learned nothing from last year
|
|
|
|
|
markc
Jan 21, 2009, 7:22 PM
Post #18 of 36
(13273 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 21, 2003
Posts: 2481
|
majid_sabet wrote: angry wrote: I'm going to go ahead and say a 3mm won't work. I bet you could break it if it got so much as a nick in it. The 6mm is fine. Even with that a long super skinny cord is a mess you're probably not counting on. You'll spend the night on top of the solar slab on this trip. It'll be a growing experience. you learned nothing from last year
Again, we're talking about a neophyte multipitch climber in an area known for rope-snagging rappels. His partners are equally inexperienced, and they're looking to climb easy routes. I think the best advice in this case is to make sure he always has a leadable line in hand. If this guy gets stuck with his lead rope 50 feet above him and some 3mm floss in his hand, he'll be fucked.
I've only been to Red Rocks once, but climbing mid-week I only ran into 6 people one day, and 8 the next. Less than half those people were climbers, and only one group climbed remotely close to us. If the OP runs into problems under those circumstances, it will be up to him to sort it out.
|
|
|
|
|
Adk
Jan 21, 2009, 8:46 PM
Post #19 of 36
(13238 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 2, 2006
Posts: 1085
|
majid_sabet wrote: angry wrote: I'm going to go ahead and say a 3mm won't work. I bet you could break it if it got so much as a nick in it. The 6mm is fine. Even with that a long super skinny cord is a mess you're probably not counting on. You'll spend the night on top of the solar slab on this trip. It'll be a growing experience. you learned nothing from last year
I know I did. Thanks Majid
To USNAVY. Practice it before you actually have to rely on it. You'll be fine.
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Jan 22, 2009, 6:27 PM
Post #20 of 36
(13126 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 9, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
vegastradguy wrote: granite_grrl wrote: vegastradguy wrote: while i do trail an 8.6mm line for double rope rappels (i dont like the idea of counting on a pull line- if i'm carrying a rope, i want to be able to lead on it in a pinch. hell, even a single 7.6mm twin would be better than a pull cord), more often than not, a 70m line will do just fine for raps- especially here in RR, i can only think of one route i've climbed lately that needed a second rope for rappel. That's some good beta there. I've always just trailed a line or used a set of doubles out there, but I think our next rope is going to be a 70m regardless. yeah- i mean even on a route like Levitation, a new 70m works. an 60m and one bail biner would also work- which i'd much rather do than lug a 7lb trail line up to that monster.
Haven't you heard 80m the new 70m 
As for tag lines... The strength of a 6mm static is fine. The usability of 7mm is better with minimal extra weight (don't try to quote g/m, it is so minimal you will not notice the difference). experiance has shown 7mm is easier to manage and twistes/tangles less when the tak line os over 55m.
On that note any static tag line should be at least 5m longer than your dynamic to account for stretch. If like me you're using an 80m rope paired up with a 7mm tag, consider using an 87m long tag.
cavet, I use said long beast of a rope for ice, new routing and 3 person parties on standard/straight forward trad/alpine routes. The tag line for is most often only used on routes where extra long raps translate into safety, or when I'll be on pitches where gear will need to be taged up (think long pitches with potential aid, and potential need for bolting gear). 90% of the time I do not bring the tag line as an 80m is enough.
In my experiance the effective use of tag lines for raps falls as length of rope increases. 70m is the limit I use on that unless I'm on new ground or aiding (in which case I typically run out of gear after 50 -60 m anyways). 50m is the ideal length to consider using tags, 60 is where it starts getting a bit more hassle, 70 is the effective limit...
...and use of wone with an 80m rope is definitely a special service tool.
just my $0.02
(This post was edited by the_climber on Jan 22, 2009, 8:48 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
kachoong
Jan 22, 2009, 7:43 PM
Post #21 of 36
(13083 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 23, 2004
Posts: 15304
|
the_climber wrote: On that note any static tag line should be at least 5m longer than your static dynamic to account for stretch.
Fixed that for ya.
Yeah, we used to use a 6mm for rapping off in an alpine setting... could even stuff it in our jacket occasionally on the summit attempt for use descending after... mind you, that's when 50m ropes were the norm. Probably couldn't stuff 70-80m of that stuff in teh jacket.
|
|
|
|
|
shimanilami
Jan 22, 2009, 8:15 PM
Post #22 of 36
(13055 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 2043
|
From experience, a 3mm tag line won't work. It hurts too much to pull on, even with gloves. And you're talking about multipitch - therefore, multi-rappel - here.
A 5mm barely works. Make sure it is super-static. If it stretches much, you'll be hating life.
Bring gloves.
|
|
|
|
|
AlexCV
Jan 22, 2009, 8:43 PM
Post #23 of 36
(13024 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 25, 2008
Posts: 283
|
Outside of a free drop, anything less then 6mm will suck. On top of the weakness of the 3mm and the difficulty of pulling on it (no, making a loop and using a biner as a handle isn't a great method either). 3mm is just so floppy that you can't toss it and expect it to make its way down. Any wind will send the line flying like crazy and the tangly mess will be ridiculous. The only use of 3mm cord is to make keeper loops and lanyards on small gear or for tent guy lines (with the glow in the dark sterling cords.).
If you insist on long multipitch with a single rope and 80m isn't long enough, the Beal Joker is a single rope that can be ordered in 90, 100 and 120m, although you might need to get those size from a french retailer (the french like their double ropes uncut, so 100 and 120 are standard double lengths there.)
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Jan 22, 2009, 8:50 PM
Post #24 of 36
(13018 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 9, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
kachoong wrote: the_climber wrote: On that note any static tag line should be at least 5m longer than your static dynamic to account for stretch. Fixed that for ya.
kachoong wrote: Yeah, we used to use a 6mm for rapping off in an alpine setting... could even stuff it in our jacket occasionally on the summit attempt for use descending after... mind you, that's when 50m ropes were the norm. Probably couldn't stuff 70-80m of that stuff in teh jacket.
After a tag ling passes that 45m to 50m length I start using a small rope bucked or small drybag set up as a rope bucket to carry and stack it in. Works great for those windy hell decents.
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Jan 22, 2009, 8:54 PM
Post #25 of 36
(7453 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 9, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
One other not eon skinny tag lines and climbing ropes. Mak esure you're using an appropiet knot system. Some people tie 2 loops together, but I find this to be very snag prone.
A double fishermans on the dynamic, and a tripple on the skinny static is the norm around here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
