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kenstin21
Feb 12, 2009, 8:07 PM
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hey guys i was wondering if it would be better to have a not bad trad draw clipped to your pro or to just stretch out the runner and have an even longer extension? i mean why would having too much extension on your pro be bad?
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hafilax
Feb 12, 2009, 8:08 PM
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If the extension allows you to hit something in a fall then that would be bad.
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Carnage
Feb 12, 2009, 8:23 PM
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kenstin21 wrote: hey guys i was wondering if it would be better to have a not bad trad draw clipped to your pro or to just stretch out the runner and have an even longer extension? i mean why would having too much extension on your pro be bad?
please rephrase first question so it is saying something understandable.
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Factor2
Feb 12, 2009, 8:29 PM
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kenstin21 wrote: i mean why would having too much extension on your pro be bad?
If you're extending all your pieces with 60 foot runners on a 50 foot route, thats probably bad
(This post was edited by Factor2 on Feb 12, 2009, 8:30 PM)
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kenstin21
Feb 12, 2009, 10:22 PM
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would it make a big difference if you clipped your pro with a stretched out trad draw or a tripled trad draw
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getout87
Feb 12, 2009, 10:47 PM
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The point of extending or slinging placements is to prevent excessive rope drag by making the rope travel in as straight of a line as possible. If you have a wandering route and you clip off the cam slings a la splitter cracks, you are going to lock yourself down after a few placements.
On the other hand, if you are placing your first piece 10 feet up, slinging it with a two foot runner is going to give a greater chance of you decking.
In the end, it is up to the leader to decide.
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andrewG
Feb 12, 2009, 10:48 PM
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As with all things trad, it depends. I almost always use an extended trad draw on passive pro. Same goes with cams if I think they're going to walk. Then there is the rope drag factor, biner cross loading, sharp edges etc...
Thats part of why trad is so much fun for me. It's not just clipping bolts, you actually have to use your brain.
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ryanb
Feb 12, 2009, 11:35 PM
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It can make a hugh difference. If you place and then climb over a roof or around a corner. Often the extended draw will be enough to clear the obstacle entirely but the tripled draw would leave you with two 90 degree turns in the rope and a hugh amount of drag.
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granite_grrl
Feb 13, 2009, 2:43 PM
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hafilax wrote: If the extension allows you to hit something in a fall then that would be bad.
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johnwesely
Feb 13, 2009, 3:09 PM
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If you leave the draw tripled, then you might as well just use a quickdraw and save the trad draw for when you need it.
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markc
Feb 13, 2009, 3:16 PM
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Sometimes, you're fucked if you don't extend your gear. Sometimes, you're fucked if you do. You have to consider both the individual pieces and the protection system as a whole. Some things you may consider as you place pro (several of which were already listed):
How will rope movement impact the piece? Is it likely to lift out or walk as I move above it? (Do I need gear in opposition?)
Are the biners being cross-loaded by any features? Is the sling in a position where it may cut over an edge?
Will extending the sling put me at greater risk for hitting ledges or other features? If so, am I likely to fall in this section?
How in-line are my placements, and where am I likely to go above? Are there any overhangs or sudden changes of direction?
All of those things need to be considered, and in some cases you may have competing concerns. Most people I climb with carry a range of slings for this reason.
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markc
Feb 13, 2009, 3:21 PM
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johnwesely wrote: If you leave the draw tripled, then you might as well just use a quickdraw and save the trad draw for when you need it.
True, but it depends on what you're carrying. I carry very few quickdraws, as tripled 2' slings are more versatile. (For most traditional multipitch routes, I carry 2 6" slings, 11 2' slings, and 2 4' slings.)
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johnwesely
Feb 13, 2009, 3:26 PM
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markc wrote: johnwesely wrote: If you leave the draw tripled, then you might as well just use a quickdraw and save the trad draw for when you need it. True, but it depends on what you're carrying. I carry very few quickdraws, as tripled 2' slings are more versatile. (For most traditional multipitch routes, I carry 2 6" slings, 11 2' slings, and 2 4' slings.)
I only carry quickdraws because I only have 4 2' slings and 4 4' slings. I definitely plan on getting more though because I climb a lot of wandering routes.
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jkd159
Feb 13, 2009, 6:36 PM
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cracklover wrote: If you have five two foot draws and you fall, you'll fall five feet further than if you had five one foot draws.
I'm not sure that is the case. Consider a perfectly vertical crack. In this case it is only the length of the top draw which affects how far you fall (granted you wouldn't be extending these draws, but you see my point). And, BTW, the extra distance fallen is twice the extra length of the draw. So using a 2' draw instead of a 1' draw on the top piece means you fall an additional 2'.
For a route which wanders, even significantly, extra distance fallen still comes predominantly from the top draw. Lower draws will add some additional distance as they come tight in the direction of pull, but not nearly as much as the full length of the draw.
To the OP and anyone else interested, a fairly concise explanation of when I extend and don't extend draws can be found at http://www.jeffdeutsch.com/...0201/otoh.html#otoh6 at the bottom of the page.
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cracklover
Feb 13, 2009, 6:40 PM
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jkd159 wrote: cracklover wrote: If you have five two foot draws and you fall, you'll fall five feet further than if you had five one foot draws. I'm not sure that is the case. Consider a perfectly vertical crack. In this case it is only the length of the top draw which affects how far you fall (granted you wouldn't be extending these draws, but you see my point). And, BTW, the extra distance fallen is twice the extra length of the draw. So using a 2' draw instead of a 1' draw on the top piece means you fall an additional 2'.
Holy crap, so you'll fall an extra ten feet!!!
GO
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kachoong
Feb 13, 2009, 6:54 PM
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jkd159 wrote: cracklover wrote: If you have five two foot draws and you fall, you'll fall five feet further than if you had five one foot draws. I'm not sure that is the case. Consider a perfectly vertical crack. In this case it is only the length of the top draw which affects how far you fall (granted you wouldn't be extending these draws, but you see my point). And, BTW, the extra distance fallen is twice the extra length of the draw. So using a 2' draw instead of a 1' draw on the top piece means you fall an additional 2'.
Umm, no... you will only fall an additional 1 foot. The draw should in most cases be pointing down at the time of your fall.
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jkd159
Feb 13, 2009, 7:07 PM
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kachoong wrote: Umm, no... you will only fall an additional 1 foot. The draw should in most cases be pointing down at the time of your fall.
Nope, you fall twice the additional length of the draw.
Imagine that I climb up 10' and place a piece, connecting it to the rope with a 2' draw so the rope carabiner is 8' off the ground. If I climb another 6' (to 16' above the ground) and fall, I will take a 16' fall and hit the ground just as the rope comes tight. This obviously ignores slack in the system and rope stretch.
Now, same scenario, but with a 1' draw. The rope carabiner is 9' off the ground. When I fall from 16' above the ground, it is a 14' fall and I end up 2' above the ground.
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kachoong
Feb 13, 2009, 7:11 PM
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jkd159 wrote: kachoong wrote: Umm, no... you will only fall an additional 1 foot. The draw should in most cases be pointing down at the time of your fall. Nope, you fall twice the additional length of the draw. Imagine that I climb up 10' and place a piece, connecting it to the rope with a 2' draw so the rope carabiner is 8' off the ground. If I climb another 6' (to 16' above the ground) and fall, I will take a 16' fall and hit the ground just as the rope comes tight. This obviously ignores slack in the system and rope stretch. Now, same scenario, but with a 1' draw. The rope carabiner is 9' off the ground. When I fall from 16' above the ground, it is a 14' fall and I end up 2' above the ground.
OK< yes.. I'm mistaken... good call! 
I haven't eaten my thinking chocolate for the day.
(This post was edited by kachoong on Feb 13, 2009, 7:12 PM)
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hafilax
Feb 13, 2009, 7:16 PM
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Falling further is often better (unless you're going to hit something as I mentioned earlier).
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justroberto
Feb 13, 2009, 7:49 PM
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How is this unintellegible thread still alive?
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moose_droppings
Feb 13, 2009, 8:14 PM
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jkd159 wrote: kachoong wrote: Umm, no... you will only fall an additional 1 foot. The draw should in most cases be pointing down at the time of your fall. Nope, you fall twice the additional length of the draw. Imagine that I climb up 10' and place a piece, connecting it to the rope with a 2' draw so the rope carabiner is 8' off the ground. If I climb another 6' (to 16' above the ground) and fall, I will take a 16' fall and hit the ground just as the rope comes tight. This obviously ignores slack in the system and rope stretch. Now, same scenario, but with a 1' draw. The rope carabiner is 9' off the ground. When I fall from 16' above the ground, it is a 14' fall and I end up 2' above the ground.
So, your only placing your piece at waist level? WTF
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olderic
Feb 13, 2009, 8:17 PM
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cracklover wrote: jkd159 wrote: cracklover wrote: If you have five two foot draws and you fall, you'll fall five feet further than if you had five one foot draws. I'm not sure that is the case. Consider a perfectly vertical crack. In this case it is only the length of the top draw which affects how far you fall (granted you wouldn't be extending these draws, but you see my point). And, BTW, the extra distance fallen is twice the extra length of the draw. So using a 2' draw instead of a 1' draw on the top piece means you fall an additional 2'. Holy crap, so you'll fall an extra ten feet!!! GO
You guys are all a bunch of extremists. 2 extra vs. 10 extra being the extremes. But the real world answer is going to be closer to 2. It will be 2 + the sum total of the extra extension of the lower 4 slings. Extra being how much beyond 1 foot they stretched when the force comes.
Ok that is rant 1.
Rant 2 is the constant use of "trad draw". Makes me cringe. retrofitting newer language. trad climbing uses "slings" S-L-I-N-G-S. Well actual draws are used a lot too. But a sling doubled, trippled, quadruppled and so on it still a sling - it is not a draw. When we first started sport climbing in these parts we used "sport slings" - you get the picture.
Of course I know that "trad draw" had become so ingrained in the lingo that it has become a standard.
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hafilax
Feb 13, 2009, 8:25 PM
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crrrrshhh
Crotchety olderic. Please report to the The spoiled under 30 crowd in the Campground. Over.
crrrrssh
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olderic
Feb 13, 2009, 8:27 PM
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hafilax wrote: crrrrshhh Crotchety olderic. Please report to the The spoiled under 30 crowd in the Campground. Over. crrrrssh
That crowd wouldn't even know what a runner is. Even the old crowd has trouble with a running belay.
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