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EricSmith
Mar 15, 2009, 2:09 AM
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I once had an incident where I completely destroyed a foam helmet. It was okay that my helmet was in pieces, because I had been on a bicycle. I didn't continue riding, so I was no longer at risk.
Getting hit by icefall halfway up a mountain is a different story, of course. You are still on the mountain and still at risk. For this reason I climb wearing a hardshell (Ecrin Roc).
Now there is an article in R&I about someone who suffered a fractured skull while wearing a hardshell (HB El Cap). The article concludes that a foam helmet might have mitigated the severity of this injury.
What is a climber to do? Is there a helmet out there that strikes a good balance of impact absorption and durability?
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Alpine07
Mar 15, 2009, 2:26 AM
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Correct me if I am wrong. But didn't the article state that the helmet was outdated. And say that a hardshell and foam combination helmet (petzl elios?) might have helped in this situation.
Edit: just looked up the article. They said "foam lined helmets" not fully foam helmets. And his helmet was indeed an outdated HB helmet.
(This post was edited by Alpine07 on Mar 15, 2009, 2:29 AM)
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bill413
Mar 15, 2009, 3:14 AM
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From the article:
In reply to: While Chris had no control of the ice fall, he did have control over other factors, such as his choice of helmet.
The most important (IMO) statement:
In reply to: Wearing any helmet is always preferable to not wearing one, but a newer, foam helmet might have mitigated the severity of this injury. |
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sungam
Mar 15, 2009, 3:46 AM
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You have to take into consideration the chances of different things occurring.
If you believe that the incident with the highest chance of occurring is a single, hard impact, then you're best going with a Meteor style foam helmet.
If you believe that you're more likely to get struck several times by lesser impacts, stick with a hard shell helmet.
Personally, I believe that helmets like the Grivel salamander are best (hard shell with a foam inner), and I wear my salamander for ice, alpine, and trad (it's my favorite, but also due to fit). I feel uneasy when dealing with Tracer style helmets in the mountains. One smallish (that's almost small but not quite, but not quite moderate) rock or ice strike and it's out of action. I've been hit by ice hard enough to make my ears ring for 5 to 10 minutes, and I assume such a strike would mess up a foam helmet pretty badly. I still got pelted a plenty that day after the impact, and my head would have felt pretty bad had I not had any protection. Even if we had bailed due to a broken helmet, I would have caught hell from the groups that would have ended up above us, and would have felt pretty shitty.
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coolcat83
Mar 15, 2009, 3:55 AM
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Get a hybrid, best of both worlds, I have a Elios banged my head a few times where foam would been damaged, but if something reallyn big comes along the foam will beak and absorb the impact...I hope
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sungam
Mar 15, 2009, 4:18 AM
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yokese wrote: sungam wrote: Personally, I believe that helmets like the Grivel salamander are best (hard shell with a foam inner), and I wear my salamander for ice, alpine, and trad (it's my favorite, but also due to fit). Liar. The only reason you like the salamander is that you can get it in pink.  
t3h ladeez luvz my pink helmet
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rschap
Mar 15, 2009, 4:37 AM
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sungam wrote: Personally, I believe that helmets like the Grivel salamander are best (hard shell with a foam inner), and I wear my salamander for ice, alpine, and trad (it's my favorite, but also due to fit).
I have a Black Dimond Half Dome for the same reason.
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USnavy
Mar 15, 2009, 4:54 AM
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Wear both a hardshell and a foam helmet and you will have the best of both worlds.  The chances are rather negligent that you would get hit in the head by and object that causes your helmet to EXPLODE, and then get hit in the head again by something. 
(This post was edited by USnavy on Mar 15, 2009, 5:25 AM)
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rschap
Mar 15, 2009, 5:06 AM
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Have you ever ice climbed in Lee Vining?
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I_do
Mar 15, 2009, 12:48 PM
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SO, slightly related but not really, the foam in my helmet (mammut skywalker) has cracked here and there, does that impair on it's function?
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qwert
Mar 15, 2009, 12:57 PM
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Somewhere on planetfear there is/ was an interesting article about the then new concept of foam helmets.
The conclusion was that they are better in many places, since they do not only protect agains objects falling down on you (as with hardshells) but also against impacts from the side (as in a fall gone wrong).
so it seems like foams (or imho even better foams with a hard shell for durability) are better for stuff where the risk is rahter in falls and not in multiple stuff coming down.
But for long stufff, or alpine, where a retreat might be hard or impossible, i would always go with a hard one.
but you have to keep in mind that a hard shell does not equal to multi impact stability! Of course there is a grey zone, where stuff is simply that small that it doesnt affect a hard helmet at all, but would destroy a foamy, but if you take the UIAA standart impact even a hard helmet will be useless after one. As far as i know, only the edelrid ultralight is rated for multivple impacts.
I guess my next helmet will be a petzl elios or similar. Solid enough to survive being carried in a stuffed backpack, but still the benefits of 3D foam protection. But for really long (or remote) stuff, it will always be my edelrid.
qwert
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iron106
Mar 15, 2009, 1:22 PM
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I think that if I get enough impact to break my foam helmet and am alive I will just pack up and go home that day and just buy another helmet any way.
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sungam
Mar 15, 2009, 4:03 PM
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iron106 wrote: I think that if I get enough impact to break my foam helmet and am alive I will just pack up and go home that day and just buy another helmet any way.
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qwert
Mar 15, 2009, 5:26 PM
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sungam wrote: iron106 wrote: I think that if I get enough impact to break my foam helmet and am alive I will just pack up and go home that day and just buy another helmet any way. And if you get caught by ice or rockfall while you're bailing?
2. If you are sport, or single pitch climbing, going home is a good option. however if it happens a few pitches up, you might as well get hit again on your way down.
qwert
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iron106
Mar 15, 2009, 5:44 PM
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Isn't there the same possibility with a hardshell?
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sungam
Mar 15, 2009, 6:09 PM
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iron106 wrote: Isn't there the same possibility with a hardshell?
Well, that' a risk of climbing, however it's much less likely that you'll get hit by such a large chunk, and if you do you're likely a goner anyways.
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EricSmith
Mar 15, 2009, 11:42 PM
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It has been too long since I have seen the "outdated HB El Cap", but wasn't it essentially the same as any of the suspended-shell variety of helmets currently on the market, like the Ecrin Roc, Edelrid Ultralight and others? I felt the thrust of the article was to suggest all helmets of this style, current or not, are outdated.
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sungam
Mar 16, 2009, 3:38 AM
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Those old HB's were worse then the joe brown helmets. I never liked them. Too thin a shell, though the suspension seemed fine.
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ryanb
Mar 16, 2009, 4:15 AM
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rschap wrote: sungam wrote: Personally, I believe that helmets like the Grivel salamander are best (hard shell with a foam inner), and I wear my salamander for ice, alpine, and trad (it's my favorite, but also due to fit). I have a Black Dimond Half Dome for the same reason.
I saw some test results somewhere that revealed that the half foam basically does nothing for impacts from the rear. The helmet certification tests for climbing only test impact from above and I feel it is important to choose a helmet that has an equal amount of protection on the rear and side. Hybrid designs that only have foam in the top (i think the elios is similar?) are the worst of both worlds in my opinion.
I wear a bd tracer and avoid situations where i am exposed to repeated falling objects. My decision was helped by the fact that the tracer is the only helmet i have been able to try on that will fit my enormous noggin' plus a hat.
A friend of mine who is in the local mountain rescue and ice/alpine climbs a ton was considering picking up a foam helmet last year. Local alpine hero Colin Haley told him it was the only type of helmet he would climb with since he had never been hit with falling rock or ice and was much more worried about lead falls.
My friend decided colin must climb with a better class of partners who don't knock shit off and stuck with a hard shell.
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EricSmith
Mar 16, 2009, 6:12 AM
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ryanb wrote: My friend decided colin must climb with a better class of partners who don't knock shit off and stuck with a hard shell.
Of course, in reality, shit can get knocked off by things like freeze/thaw cycles.
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rschap
Mar 16, 2009, 6:33 AM
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Or climbing in a crowded multipitch area like Taquitz where the teams above you knock stuff off. I’ve been pelted more than once there. Ouray was dinner plate special today too. So I guess it depends on where you are climbing.
Edit: I for got about the High Sierra.
(This post was edited by rschap on Mar 16, 2009, 6:35 AM)
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the_climber
Mar 16, 2009, 4:17 PM
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There's more to it than Hardshell vs Foam. Deflection vs Impact is also a factor to consider.
I started with hard shell helmets, edelrid, and after going through a couple of those (no helpet stand up to well to being in the trunk of a civic when it get rear-ended by a piclk-up doing 80km/h) I decided to get a half dome. It was more of a weight decision than a helmet style decision at the time. I have since developed a distain for the Half Dome's lack of durability. I now climb with a Trango CPU.
The areas I do most of my climbing in (Canasian Rockies) happens to has higher chances of gettting struck by rockfall. And the style of climbing I do tends to not lend itself to fast retreat in all cases (multi-pitch rock, Ice, Alpine, Caving, Aiding, ...). Whenever multiple strikes are possible the durability of a helmet is something that should be considered high on the list. A one hit wonder of a helmet just isn't for this cowboy. Personally if I was to recomend a hybrid helmet I would suggest the Grivel Salimander, Petzl Elios, or the Edelrid one (can't remember the name). That said a light weight hardshell with a great susspension (such as the Trango CPU) is by far my first choice.
There is one thing that I don't see mentioned in Hardshell vs Foam helmet threads as often as it should:
There are some rocks that no helmet will help you with, period.
That is a risk of climbing, and the faster a climber realizes that climbing is an activity where society's reduction of almost every possible risk does not exist, the better off a climber will be.
On a related note, people have fractured their skulls while wearing motorcycle and ATV helmets.
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jrathfon
Mar 16, 2009, 4:31 PM
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EricSmith wrote: ryanb wrote: My friend decided colin must climb with a better class of partners who don't knock shit off and stuck with a hard shell. Of course, in reality, shit can get knocked off by things like freeze/thaw cycles.
Yup, got nailed three times this weekend at the gunks. Once in the shoulder with a softball from 200' up (where were my shoulder pads...). Twice in my brand new Petzl all foam one (name?) with raquetball sized chunks from 200', not a dent or scratch with direct top impact. I am definitely concerned about the durability of the all foam, but like it's been said already. If I get hit that hard, I'll be headed home. I don't do too much alpine, but I do lots of multi-pitch, the odds of getting hit with rock are much less than me flipping over in a lead fall. In which, I'd want the full-circle protection of the foam anyways.
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