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johnwesely
Sep 10, 2011, 10:59 PM
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Yesterday, while bouldering in the gym, I made an uncontrolled, swinging move to a jug that resulted in my shoulder coming slightly out of its socket (subluxation). I have extremely loose joints; almost all of them do this on occasion. After the incident, I rested for about fifteen minutes to see if I noticed any pain and did not. I bouldered for another half hour and felt no pain or weakness in the joint. Afterwards, I proceeded to do a 4x4 with no weakness, instability, or pain. I finished the session with a few sets of pushups and called it a day. I then went home, ran a few errands, and went to over to a friends house. While walking back to my apartment, I noticed that my shoulder would subluxate if I let my shoulder muscles relax while carrying my briefcase. While I do have loose shoulders, that is hardly normal. When I woke up this morning, the inside of my shoulder was achy when I moved it, but I had no loss in the joint's range of motion. The injured shoulder is still much looser than the other and subluxates if I relax my shoulder muscles under load. I am not really sure what happened, especially because I was able to climb with no instability whatsoever after the traumatic incident. I plan on cutting out climbing until the inflammation subsides and then embarking upon a progressive rehab program to tighten my shoulders. Does this sound like something I need to see a doctor about immediately, or is it worth waiting a few days to see how it plays out?
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ceebo
Sep 11, 2011, 11:30 AM
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johnwesely wrote: Yesterday, while bouldering in the gym, I made an uncontrolled, swinging move to a jug that resulted in my shoulder coming slightly out of its socket (subluxation). I have extremely loose joints; almost all of them do this on occasion. After the incident, I rested for about fifteen minutes to see if I noticed any pain and did not. I bouldered for another half hour and felt no pain or weakness in the joint. Afterwards, I proceeded to do a 4x4 with no weakness, instability, or pain. I finished the session with a few sets of pushups and called it a day. I then went home, ran a few errands, and went to over to a friends house. While walking back to my apartment, I noticed that my shoulder would subluxate if I let my shoulder muscles relax while carrying my briefcase. While I do have loose shoulders, that is hardly normal. When I woke up this morning, the inside of my shoulder was achy when I moved it, but I had no loss in the joint's range of motion. The injured shoulder is still much looser than the other and subluxates if I relax my shoulder muscles under load. I am not really sure what happened, especially because I was able to climb with no instability whatsoever after the traumatic incident. I plan on cutting out climbing until the inflammation subsides and then embarking upon a progressive rehab program to tighten my shoulders. Does this sound like something I need to see a doctor about immediately, or is it worth waiting a few days to see how it plays out? My doc is a moron. The answer to everything, even chronic.. is ''rest''. I only go see him now to locate any problems, then i use the internet and get on with it myself. Maybe yours is more usefull.. If only i had a doc that was a climber.
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johnwesely
Sep 11, 2011, 1:27 PM
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ceebo wrote: johnwesely wrote: Yesterday, while bouldering in the gym, I made an uncontrolled, swinging move to a jug that resulted in my shoulder coming slightly out of its socket (subluxation). I have extremely loose joints; almost all of them do this on occasion. After the incident, I rested for about fifteen minutes to see if I noticed any pain and did not. I bouldered for another half hour and felt no pain or weakness in the joint. Afterwards, I proceeded to do a 4x4 with no weakness, instability, or pain. I finished the session with a few sets of pushups and called it a day. I then went home, ran a few errands, and went to over to a friends house. While walking back to my apartment, I noticed that my shoulder would subluxate if I let my shoulder muscles relax while carrying my briefcase. While I do have loose shoulders, that is hardly normal. When I woke up this morning, the inside of my shoulder was achy when I moved it, but I had no loss in the joint's range of motion. The injured shoulder is still much looser than the other and subluxates if I relax my shoulder muscles under load. I am not really sure what happened, especially because I was able to climb with no instability whatsoever after the traumatic incident. I plan on cutting out climbing until the inflammation subsides and then embarking upon a progressive rehab program to tighten my shoulders. Does this sound like something I need to see a doctor about immediately, or is it worth waiting a few days to see how it plays out? My doc is a moron. The answer to everything, even chronic.. is ''rest''. I only go see him now to locate any problems, then i use the internet and get on with it myself. Maybe yours is more usefull.. If only i had a doc that was a climber. Because of my insurance, the closest doctor I can go to is an hour away. I would have to go to that doctor for them to refer me to a specialist who is probably even farther away. I really do not want to have to go to the doctor.
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cole.g
Sep 11, 2011, 1:41 PM
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Often when a shoulder dislocates the head of the humerus (the 'ball' part of the joint) swings around and impacts the front of the glenoid (the 'cup' part of the joint). When this happens, it creates a lesion on the front of the humerus that makes the cup of the joint shallower. Depending on the severity, the lesion can involve soft tissue only or soft tissue and bone. Because the joint is made shallower it's more likely to undergo subsequent dislocations. The treatment for this kind of shoulder instability is often surgery. This is not a medical emergency, so you don't need to see a doctor immediately. But if it continues to give you problems and pain, you should see a sports medicine specialist.
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johnwesely
Sep 11, 2011, 2:35 PM
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cole.g wrote: Often when a shoulder dislocates the head of the humerus (the 'ball' part of the joint) swings around and impacts the front of the glenoid (the 'cup' part of the joint). When this happens, it creates a lesion on the front of the humerus that makes the cup of the joint shallower. Depending on the severity, the lesion can involve soft tissue only or soft tissue and bone. Because the joint is made shallower it's more likely to undergo subsequent dislocations. The treatment for this kind of shoulder instability is often surgery. This is not a medical emergency, so you don't need to see a doctor immediately. But if it continues to give you problems and pain, you should see a sports medicine specialist. Is this the sort of thing that might require surgery even if the injury was not sever enough to restrict range of motion?
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johnwesely
Sep 11, 2011, 4:25 PM
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Day 3 update: The pain has subsided somewhat and feels much more like sore muscle pain than it did yesterday. My shoulder may also be slightly more stable, but I am not entirely sure.
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johnwesely
Sep 11, 2011, 4:51 PM
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onceahardman wrote: johnwesely wrote: Is this the sort of thing that might require surgery even if the injury was not sever enough to restrict range of motion? A subluxation or dislocation is a HYPERmobility situation. One would not expect loss of ROM. Indeed, you may well have INCREASED ROM, due to capsular laxity. It's possible you may have a SLAP or Bankart lesion. In any case, resign yourself to a dedicated rotator cuff strengthening program. And for heaven's sake, STOP relaxing your shoulder muscles to see if it still subluxes. (no such word as "subluxate") http://www.athleticadvisor.com/...lder/slap_lesion.htm http://orthopedics.about.com/...oulder/a/bankart.htm Thanks for the vocab. I will start doing rotator cuff exercise once the pain subsides.
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ghisino
Sep 12, 2011, 2:48 PM
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seems like my worse injury. It required no surgery but kept me away from climbing for 1 month and it took at least one and a half year of hard work before being 100% confident on the injuried side again. First lesson : be patient and work hard. if you still have pain ans/or instability in a week, see a shoulder specialist and have MRI. until then, just rest. then, if your case is similar to mine, a lot of focused exercise should fix it. start with theraband external rotation, at least 4 sets of 30 reps daily. as you start to get more stable include things like YWTL complexes with very light weights and rowers. And finally : hanging shrugs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl-73xh0wCc start these with your feet on the ground. They are not meant to feel hard nor to feel as if you could get another subluxation in the relaxed phase. The key is to make that "shrug" movement your second nature, that's the first thing you want to do as you hit a hold :tighten the muscles around your scapula in order to keep your humerus in... front levers are also a good "advanced rehab" exercise if you want to climb steep stuff in a shoulder-safe way, as they promote footwork on steep ground and control of swings. do not get back into hard climbing too early, and when you do favour very slopey/marginal holds with relatively good feet (you should avoid at all costs the case where your feet slip and you're able to hold on. If your feet slip, you should come off immediately even if you're trying hard not to). Another good choice is very steep (more than 45°) climbing as long as you are in control of your feet and keep good tension. Let go off the holds if you lose your feet and start to swing. What you want to be extra-careful on is long reaches/dynos between good hols on not-so-steep ground, especially if footholds are not the best (small, polished). overall, as for all injuries, during the "back to climbing" phase you want to climb with even better technique and control of what you're doing than usual. Until you are stable again try to climb in an environnement where you're not scared at all about falling...if that means toprope and lowballs, be it, forget your ego. (or work on practice falls as well as on the other stuff) good luck... PS all of the above exercises are only effective if done in perfect form. Find a competent trainer or physio and have them show you the way and correct your errors.
(This post was edited by ghisino on Sep 12, 2011, 2:50 PM)
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johnwesely
Sep 12, 2011, 2:58 PM
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If I had a SLAP lesion, would I feel it where my bicep meets the shoulder? The article on bankart lesions says that a common symptom is catching. Does a lack of catching preclude a bankart lession, or is that only more prevalent in sever cases?
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johnwesely
Sep 12, 2011, 3:00 PM
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ghisino wrote: seems like my worse injury. It required no surgery but kept me away from climbing for 1 month and it took at least one and a half year of hard work before being 100% confident on the injuried side again. First lesson : be patient and work hard. When this happened to you, did your shoulder completely dislocate? Was there pain at the time or did you notice it the next morning?
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ghisino
Sep 12, 2011, 3:41 PM
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It went out and back in by itself, so technically speaking it was a subluxation, not a full one. I can't say how much it dislocated but i experienced a very obvious tearing feel/noise, best described as when you separate two bones in a piece of chicken. It wasn't just a small "pop", rather a quite long "schhkkreeeeewwwkkk" Surprisingly un-painful during the actual injury (i'd say even a slightly torn ankle is much worse) but just plain "wrong". I did not attempt any other climbing. very painful as soon as i cooled down (15-30 minutes). for roughly a week it has been very painful (i'd need painkillers to get a proper sleep, and could only sleep on my back of course) and would feel as if it would dislocate again when i coughed. MRI said it resulted in a SLAP I lesion, so i only slightly damaged my biceps' tendon attachment and not the joint socket.
(This post was edited by ghisino on Sep 12, 2011, 3:53 PM)
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ghisino
Sep 12, 2011, 3:50 PM
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johnwesely wrote: If I had a SLAP lesion, would I feel it where my bicep meets the shoulder? a bit more "right in the middle the joint" than what you are probably figuring out if it's the case it will be obvious when you get back to climbing, pulling movements will be painful expecially if your hand is far overhead.
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johnwesely
Sep 12, 2011, 4:02 PM
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ghisino wrote: It went out and back in by itself, so technically speaking it was a subluxation, not a full one. I can't say how much it dislocated but i experienced a very obvious tearing feel/noise, best described as when you separate two bones in a piece of chicken. It wasn't just a small "pop", rather a quite long "schhkkreeeeewwwkkk" Surprisingly un-painful during the actual injury (i'd say even a slightly torn ankle is much worse) but just plain "wrong". I did not attempt any other climbing. very painful as soon as i cooled down (15-30 minutes). for roughly a week it has been very painful (i'd need painkillers to get a proper sleep, and could only sleep on my back of course) and would feel as if it would dislocate again when i coughed. MRI said it resulted in a SLAP I lesion, so i only slightly damaged my biceps' tendon attachment and not the joint socket. Hopefully mine is less sever than yours was. I didn't feel any pain at the time, and climbing felt perfectly normal after the trauma. Today, the joint feels a little tighter but is slightly more achy than it was yesterday.
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onceahardman
Sep 12, 2011, 9:37 PM
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johnwesely wrote: If I had a SLAP lesion, would I feel it where my bicep meets the shoulder? The article on bankart lesions says that a common symptom is catching. Does a lack of catching preclude a bankart lession, or is that only more prevalent in sever cases? Re: SLAP: you might feel it there, but not really because of the SLAP itself, but because the long head of biceps crosses the front of the shoulder joint, and is easily strained during subluxation. RE: Bankart: Not having a "catching" feeling would be a pretty low-confidence indicator one way or the other. The surest diagnosis is made by direct observation during open surgery. Next would be contrast MRI. Further down the line would be arthrogram. Clinical signs, like catching or locking, give considerably less confidence. I have seen several cases of MRI "confirmed" labrum tears which turned out to not be torn at all upon having surgery. That's one of the problems with trying to help in a forum like this. People want to have an objective diagnosis with very limited information. (I'm not blaming you for this, everybody does it, including me). Labrum tears are very hard to diagnose using clinical testing skills even if I had you in my office. The thing is, though, most surgeons, even if you had a confirmed MRI diagnosis, would still recommend 4 or so weeks of PT/RC strengthening to see how you respond, before considering surgery.
(This post was edited by onceahardman on Sep 12, 2011, 9:40 PM)
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johnwesely
Sep 12, 2011, 10:35 PM
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Thank you for the advice. I really appreciate it.
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Jnclk
Sep 13, 2011, 11:54 AM
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John, I was diagnosed with a minor SLAP tear about three years ago. I saw three surgeons and all three cautioned against surgery. Unless you have a large tear and are having functional issues like catching or major pain with use, I'd start focusing on PT to strengthen the rotator cuff. If you have a labral tear, your shoulder is going to hurt for quite some time. It took my shoulder over a year to settle down. After my injury, I took 8 weeks off from climbing but was climbing hard again within another 8 weeks. I can't vouch enough for the effectiveness of RC strengthening exercises. I strained my right RC this spring in a ski crash and successfully rehabbed that as well. You mentioned that you have loose shoulders so you are a prime candidate for further subluxations and biceps and/or RC tendonitis. You'll need to stay on top of the strengthening program which will eventually be a maintenance program. Your RC exercises will have to become part of your training. You can't rehab for a couple of months and then stop. The problems will come back. Find a PT and get to work! Find a facility where they treat athletes. If you have any questions let me know. -Jon
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ghisino
Sep 13, 2011, 3:13 PM
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Jnclk wrote: You can't rehab for a couple of months and then stop. The problems will come back. +1
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johnwesely
Sep 14, 2011, 6:19 PM
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My shoulder almost feels normal today. The pain has subsided into a dull ache, and it may actually be slightly more stable than the uninjured shoulder. Obviously, I am not testing that theory, so the observation is just based on feel. I am going to be in the gym doing PT tomorrow. I will probably stay off the wall. At the gym, I have access to free weights but not therabands. Is there any advantage to therabands? Would pushups be beneficial?
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onceahardman
Sep 14, 2011, 10:03 PM
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johnwesely wrote: I have access to free weights but not therabands. Is there any advantage to therabands? Would pushups be beneficial? I'm glad you are feeling better. Theraband is really nice for early RC strengthening. Of course, it's not impossible to rehab without it, but it's good to have. Without bands, the next best thing would be a pulley machine, with moveable pulleys. You can supplement with (very) light dumbells. Remember the RC is composed of small muscles, and many people require 1-2 lb dumbells to start. Of course, never sacrifice form to lift more weight. Form is especially critical with RC rehab. Good luck, and post back.
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johnwesely
Sep 14, 2011, 10:16 PM
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onceahardman wrote: johnwesely wrote: I have access to free weights but not therabands. Is there any advantage to therabands? Would pushups be beneficial? I'm glad you are feeling better. Theraband is really nice for early RC strengthening. Of course, it's not impossible to rehab without it, but it's good to have. Without bands, the next best thing would be a pulley machine, with moveable pulleys. You can supplement with (very) light dumbells. Remember the RC is composed of small muscles, and many people require 1-2 lb dumbells to start. Of course, never sacrifice form to lift more weight. Form is especially critical with RC rehab. Good luck, and post back. They have 1, 2, and 5 pound dumbells at the gym. Would they sell therabands at big box sports stores?
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Jnclk
Sep 15, 2011, 11:40 AM
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johnwesely wrote: They have 1, 2, and 5 pound dumbells at the gym. Would they sell therabands at big box sports stores? www.thera-band.com you want the resistance bands. Get yellow through silver. They're better than dumbells in that they're easy to travel with. Take it slow. More resistance isn't necessarily better. As onceahardman said, form is much more important than weight.
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johnwesely
Sep 15, 2011, 4:36 PM
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Jnclk wrote: johnwesely wrote: They have 1, 2, and 5 pound dumbells at the gym. Would they sell therabands at big box sports stores? www.thera-band.com you want the resistance bands. Get yellow through silver. They're better than dumbells in that they're easy to travel with. Take it slow. More resistance isn't necessarily better. As onceahardman said, form is much more important than weight. I was doing the rotator cuff exercises in Training for Climbing with a jar a sauce last night. It probably works out to be two pounds once the jar is factored in. By the end of the set it was difficult, but possible, to maintain slow, even form.
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johnwesely
Sep 17, 2011, 11:30 PM
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Week one update. For the last few days, I have had zero pain in my range of motion. Today is the first day I am 100% ache free. I bought a set of three therabands and have been doing the rotator cuff exercises as well as some light dumbell work. My guess that my injured shoulder was actually more stable than the healthy one was inaccurate. I can hang from both arms with no pain, but if I put my arm above my head and pull, there is a fair amount of pain. Yesterday, I did a light hangboard workout with no ill effects the morning after. I might start doing some light vertical climbing this week as well as some aid. I will update as things change.
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johnwesely
Sep 20, 2011, 12:45 PM
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I am not sure if this is due to the therabands or time, but my shoulder is feeling great. Doing day to day things, it feels completely normal, no pain or instability. The pain from pulling above my head has been gradually subsiding and now has transmuted into mild discomfort.
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