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iamthewallress
Sep 3, 2003, 12:38 AM
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On last week's El Cap vacation, my one tiff with my sweetie happened when the bag got stuck when I was lowering it across a traverse and he was setting up to haul it from the other side. He thought that I might need to start hauling it or to escape my belay of it and rap down to it. Anyway, in the confusion he asked,
"Do you know the Guarda knot?"
And, I thought,
"Well, I learned it in self-rescue class and I've seen it in books, but standing here right now, I have no idea what it is or why I would use it."
He was pretty unimpressed (in a sort of emotinoally inflated, wall-exhausted sort of way) with my lack of knowledge here...
Anyway, it got me thinking about all of the ways in which I "know" knots...Do I recognize the name? Do I know how to do it with some serious fiddling? Do I know it like the figure 8?
Of course, if I truly "knew" all of the knots and rope tricks in the manuals as well as when I should use them, I'd be a more prepared climber. Still I've never felt like my safety was riding on rapid fire knowledge of some of the more "obscure" albeit standard knots. The bag snafu has me reconsidering. (Although, it turned out that a mighty yank on the lower out line was sufficient to fix the problem.)
How many knots do you all really know? Can you use the prussic, the kleimheist, and the bachman with equal facility? Is the mariners knot as easily accessed by your nimble fingers as the trucker's hitch? Have you found these knots to be frequently useful or more like parlor tricks or slick things save time and make you feel clever in rare situation. Or like me, do you get a lot of mileage out of the eight, the clove, the munter/mule, the overhand, and the girth hitch?
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drkodos
Sep 3, 2003, 1:57 AM
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I know quite a few, having spent many a year sailing using complex knots, shanks, and bends.
The Garda is a great knot and has definate worthy applications in climbing. I may have used it once or twice, more than likey out of interest rather than neccessity.
Personally, I enjoy doinking around with the wide range of Bowlines available, many having direct climbing applications, particulary in Big Wall rigging. Especially fun to tie in with to confuse some noobs! :wink:
The "Spainish Bowline" is fun, and easy way to eaqualize an anchor.
The "Jury Mast" knot can tie-off three piecs quite effectively, with one
knot.
And while not too applicable in climbing, except to maybe tie down a partner's busy-hands, the Sheepshank has long been a favorie, if only for its name alone....
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passthepitonspete
Sep 3, 2003, 2:45 AM
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Not only do I know how to tie and use the garda, klemheist and prusik, I even know how to spell them!
For every application, there is a knot. Knowing what to use when can save you a lot of heartache, especially when it comes time to untie the thing! I don't have much use for prusik knots per se - they really only grip on half their coils. The klemheist is superior.
I think most of us know finally that the Euro Death Knot [it]looks scary!] is the Better Way to join two equal-diameter ropes for a double-rope rappel. Make sure it's tied right, and leave the tails long.
The Figure-8 within the butterfly is the Better Way to join together two free-hanging fixed ropes for jugging [when you can put the knot at a rebelay].
A garda knot is a great knot for a temporary haul - if you don't have a compound pulley. There's a lot of friction. You can use it on top of your pig as a Far End Hauler if you don't have an inverted compound pulley, though it slips tight under load and holds against your backup.
The one knot I have never learned to tie, but probably should, is a double bowline.
But for my money, the most useful and most overlooked knot on the big wall is the amazing butterfly knot! If you are not intimately familiar with this little beauty, and are not tying her on a regular basis, be sure to click the link. I've probably missed a few of its possible applications, so if anyone else has any, make a post and bring this old chestnut to the top of the pile.
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climbingcowboy
Sep 3, 2003, 2:50 AM
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I so know what mean Melissa I was wondering the same thing the other day, when I started thinking about getting myslfe out of certain situations. Would I know exactly wich knots to use? If someone was trying to tell me what knot to use I probably wouldnt know it by name. So I broke out the book again and started praticseing and trying to memorize names.
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wonderbread
Sep 3, 2003, 5:17 AM
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Knots are so overrated. I climbed El Cap twice before I even knew how to tie a clove hitch. Seriously... Common sense and a couple knots are all one really needs.
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passthepitonspete
Sep 3, 2003, 5:39 AM
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You know, wonderbread is right. [He is one of the few around here who emphatically "gets it"] I didn't know how to do a clove hitch when I climbed my first few Grade V's.
But what a dummy I was! It's such an incredibly useful knot! I can't believe I ever did without it those first few years.
Ditto for the butterfly. I used to tie my pig onto my haul line with a figure-8 on a bight, and then waste all that time trying to undo it! I used the same [stupid] knot to fix the lead rope for jugging. A clove hitch is better, but the butterfly is better still.
And then there were all those slipping prusik knots instead of klemheists.
And then there were those double fisherman's knots joining my rap ropes, and getting stuck everywhere.
And then....
Yeah, you can make it on the basics, but a few extra arrows in your quiver never hurt. And common sense with a bit of basic mechanical aptitude can go a long way.
Funny thing about common sense, though, eh? It really isn't all that common.
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sittingduck
Sep 3, 2003, 6:47 AM
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I like to know stuff like: if you tie a clov hitch around a tree to fix a rope the clove hitch will slip under bodyweight. Never use a clove hitch on a object that is much thicker than the rope itself.
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nonick
Sep 3, 2003, 8:38 AM
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I think its pretty important to know your knots and their applications. Clove hitch, fig 8 ( both variations), munter hitch, bowline, sheet bend, fishermans, prussik , kleimhiest, and middle man are some of the knots I think are important to learn. Most of these are relate to safety ( as against hauling. (Oh, yeah the water knot too for tapes)
On the whole I think its super important to the know the standard safety knots. Special purpose knots can come later with exprience.
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nonick
Sep 3, 2003, 8:45 AM
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In reply to: I like to know stuff like: if you tie a clov hitch around a tree to fix a rope the clove hitch will slip under bodyweight. Never use a clove hitch on a object that is much thicker than the rope itself.
I have never experienced this!!! When and how did this happen?
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sittingduck
Sep 3, 2003, 9:53 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I like to know stuff like: if you tie a clov hitch around a tree to fix a rope the clove hitch will slip under bodyweight. Never use a clove hitch on a object that is much thicker than the rope itself. I have never experienced this!!! When and how did this happen?
If you want to experience it just try it out in a safe environment.
NEVER tie a clov hitch around a object with a diameter that is much bigger than the diameter of the rope itself. Use a friction knot.
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mike
Sep 3, 2003, 11:03 AM
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It seems that every time I start to study and practice knots I wind up fiddling with some arcane knot. Right now my practice cord is tied into a Monkey's Fist. I can't bring myself to untie it.
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passthepitonspete
Sep 3, 2003, 11:59 AM
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Are you still allowed to anchor ropes to trees?
If so, do you know the knot that attaches a rope to a tree with 100% strength? It's an old cavers' trick.
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buckyllama
Sep 3, 2003, 1:43 PM
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Sure, wrap the rope around a tree a few times (I believe 3 is the standard number but YMMV) tie an eight on a bight and clip it with a locking biner to the main strand. Called a "high strength tie-off". I use a variation which uses a clove hitch instead of the 3 wraps when using webbing. And as long as you dess and weight it well it won't slip, no knots at all get weighted so it's easy to untie, easy to adjust, and very strong.
As for other knots you probably know the standard 3 hitches (girth, munter, and clove) but do you know how to tie them (to a carabiner) one handed? (not really an arcane trick but an amazingly handy one)
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ljthawk
Sep 3, 2003, 2:18 PM
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In reply to: Sure, wrap the rope around a tree a few times (I believe 3 is the standard number but YMMV) tie an eight on a bight and clip it with a locking biner to the main strand. Called a "high strength tie-off". I use a variation which uses a clove hitch instead of the 3 wraps when using webbing. And as long as you dess and weight it well it won't slip, no knots at all get weighted so it's easy to untie, easy to adjust, and very strong. As for other knots you probably know the standard 3 hitches (girth, munter, and clove) but do you know how to tie them (to a carabiner) one handed? (not really an arcane trick but an amazingly handy one)
Pretty much, except the biner isn't necessary and most I know don't use it; also most cavers I know tend to use the boline (sp?) instead of the eight for this rig, though they both are equivalent in this situation. As you mention, incorporating the clove hitch into the wrap is another good trick.
L.J.
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maculated
Sep 3, 2003, 3:55 PM
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I know the most basic knots and applications that most of you have reiterated and at this point, I think that's all that's needed. Why know multiple specific knots if one general not will also due?
But then again, I'm all about efficiency in everything I do.
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alpiner
Sep 3, 2003, 4:10 PM
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Anyone know where the garda knot got its name?
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epic_ed
Sep 3, 2003, 4:16 PM
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Well, I did my first rappel on two ropes joined together by the European Death Knot (EDK) this weekend. I'm still here to tell ya about it, so I guess the whole "death knot" thing is a little exaggerated. But then again, one instance performed by one climber doesn't exactly create a statistically valid sample. Regardless, I was very happy when I pulled the ropes and the knot avoided the nasty grove and cracks above on P1, and the knot was refreshingly easy to untie. Just make sure that the tails of the knot are exceedingly long.
Ed
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vegastradguy
Sep 3, 2003, 4:53 PM
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i need to get around to learning the Monkey's Fist...its so neat looking.
i finally got around to getting a knot book to supplement my knot knowledge, and i've promised myself to learn at least one new knot a month. (hey, school, work, climbing, and (2) 4 month old puppies take up alot of time!)
anyway, my 'Knot of the Month' is the handcuff knot.
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mike
Sep 3, 2003, 5:05 PM
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In reply to: i need to get around to learning the Monkey's Fist...its so neat looking. i finally got around to getting a knot book to supplement my knot knowledge, and i've promised myself to learn at least one new knot a month. (hey, school, work, climbing, and (2) 4 month old puppies take up alot of time!) anyway, my 'Knot of the Month' is the handcuff knot.
It's not that hard to tie, it just takes forever to get it tight.
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diesel___smoke
Sep 3, 2003, 5:06 PM
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ricardol
Sep 3, 2003, 5:12 PM
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well i finally learned the clove hitch .. and the munter ..
.. sheesh -- my belays all of the sudden got more efficient .. no more fussing with an eight on a bight to clip in .. just clove hitch it .. adjust length and good to go..
.. its an evolving experience thing .. eventually i'll pick up the atomic clip and others .. for now .. dont drop the cordalette!!
-- ricardo
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maculated
Sep 3, 2003, 8:27 PM
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Ricardo, the time we went out to Diablo I didn't teach you the clove hitch? I don't think you were paying attention. Pshaw!
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curt
Sep 3, 2003, 8:35 PM
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In reply to: How Well Do You Know Your Knots?
Curt
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ep
Sep 3, 2003, 8:53 PM
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Munter-mule is a pretty useful one to learn. Real handy for that self rescue you hope you never have to do. It's also the ticket for tying off the haulbag.
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brutusofwyde
Sep 4, 2003, 12:13 AM
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In reply to: Just make sure that the tails of the knot are exceedingly long.
12" tails are quite adequate for me. Making the tails excessively long is now something I avoid, after I erroneously set up a tail (rather than the rope strand) in my rap device. Double check before the rap caught the mistake.
ANAM seemed to have an unusually high number of rappel failure accidents when this knot was first becoming popular. Sometimes I wonder if others were making the same mistake.
Just speculating.
Brutus
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