|
biff
Sep 7, 2003, 12:06 AM
Post #1 of 23
(5313 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 5, 2001
Posts: 851
|
I was just at 8a.nu and noticed that there were 2 headlines about 12 year old climbers sending sick hard routes.
I think it is really cool that these young kids can climb that hard, but I really hope that competitive (I mean like world class) climbing will remain an adult type competition.
An example of a sport that has (IMHO) diminished due to children competing at the top most level, is Gymnastics (mostly female). I hate seeing 12year old girls with serious life long injuries due to exessive training.
I was just curious about what other people think, do you think that youg competitive climbers should be encouraged to compete at World Cup events / Olympics in the future?
|
|
|
|
|
tarp
Sep 7, 2003, 12:22 AM
Post #2 of 23
(5313 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 1, 2003
Posts: 52
|
I seriously think that whomever can pull off climbs of this calibre should do so. Young girls excell at gymnastics because of their strength to weight ratio. I think that climbing is very similar in this respect. It is natural human progression...
I personally know 13 year olds who have had to endure surgery to continue climbing, and have done so willingly. For them, it is more than a choice; it is a lifestyle. I would never take that away from them.
Every climber has the power to speak for themselves. Shut up and listen to their voice!!!
|
|
|
|
|
kriso9tails
Sep 7, 2003, 4:12 PM
Post #3 of 23
(5313 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2001
Posts: 7772
|
If it was my son or daughter, then after sixteen it's their choice, but before they'd be stuck with mostly local comps (within the province or nearby States).
It's not just the injuries (actually it's hardly the injuries), but it's the obligations to sponsors to compete and travel on the competition circuit. I want my kids to travel because they want to, not because it's their job. The competitions will still be there when they're older, and they can still make their choice, but I just don't think that a twelve year old should be making these sorts of commitments or life decisions (and if you're that good it generally is a life decision).
|
|
|
|
|
hooker
Sep 7, 2003, 4:17 PM
Post #4 of 23
(5313 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 22, 2003
Posts: 173
|
As an ex-Div I gymnast, I am beginning to question what I did to my body for so many years. 31 years old and some sever arthritis and joint issues.
As for the kids, my daughter is welcome to get into climbing or gymnastics (or any other sport), but I'll caution to not let it be all pervasive in the kid's life.
All too often all sports today have been taken over by adults. It has become more about winning? than it is participating. Whatever level my kids get involve, I will minimize their exposure to extremely organized situations, as these seem to have the most issues rotaing around them.
I think more lossely organized sports tend to let the kids just be kids, and to me, as someone that had no childhood , due to gymnastics, that's important.
Suzanne
edited once for extended content and commentary.
|
|
|
|
|
da5id
Sep 7, 2003, 4:33 PM
Post #5 of 23
(5313 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 28, 2003
Posts: 155
|
i'm an ex-Div. 1 fencer. im also 18 years old. i got out of fencing because the competition between kids my age and younger disgusted me. i'm not sure how similar this sort of thing is to climbing comps, but kids became overly obsessed with winning, elitist, injured, etc. all that crap just wasnt for me. i know 16 year olds who dropped out of school, moved across the country, etc, just to train for fencing national and world competitions. after being in that sort of environment, i could never deal with it again, because it is too sickening. i definitely urge anyone in this type of situation to take a very strong look at their values and the reason they do whatever sport it is. climbing is the most enjoyable thing ive ever done, and anything that takes away from the fun and mental/physical challenge of fencing SHOULD BE STOPPED. if competitions do this, then why do them?
Edit: I also agree with hooker's post. especially the stuff about sports being too organized. too much organization in sports leads to so much interference in enjoying the activity and making it a worthwhile experience. it also encourages unhealthy emotions and attitudes in impressionable kids
|
|
|
|
|
ikefromla
Sep 7, 2003, 5:14 PM
Post #6 of 23
(5313 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 1216
|
one thing you folks have to remember is that climbing is NOT like other sports. this goes for competition climbing as well. I compete in the USCCA and can attest to that. In our region (SoCal/Southwest) none of the competitors take it too seriously; we climb because we love it. i noticed the same thing on both the Divisional and National levels. sure, you may have 2 or 3... oh god, maybe even 4 parents at Nationals who take it way too seriously, but i noticed that not even their own children let that get to them, as they understand what it's all about. as my friends who made the National Team this year prepare to head off to Bulgaria for the Youth World Championships (as young as 14), I would not discourage them at all.
Now perhaps you are thinking that the Euro comp circuit is too competitive and this could have the same effects... but really, no. top european comp climbers still climb for the fundamental reason that they love it, and the american idea of not taking comps too seriously (to the point of consuming your life) has become more and more apparent in european comp climbers in recent years....
GOOD LUCK IN BULGARIA USCCA 2003 YOUTH NATIONAL TEAM!!!!
|
|
|
|
|
drkodos
Sep 7, 2003, 5:21 PM
Post #7 of 23
(5313 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 21, 2002
Posts: 2935
|
Problem is, it is growing toward the mainstream and is modeling itself on the same paradigms!
It's not there yet, but that is the goal! :shock:
More $$$$ !!!
Good luck with your association and I hope you can avoid the pitfalls now that you are aware of them!
:D
|
|
|
|
|
axewielder
Dec 23, 2003, 3:28 AM
Post #8 of 23
(5313 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2003
Posts: 91
|
In reply to: none of the competitors take it too seriously; we climb because we love it.
what he said...
I compete in the USCCA as well (M16/17), and agree absolutely. At USCCA comps, in region to the nationals, everythings nice and friendly. Also at various bouldering comps I've been to (which have kids competing), there is barely any negative competitive spirit even with money as a prize.
Even if there was, if the world had no troubles, it wouldn't be any fun...
|
|
|
|
|
tart
Jan 5, 2004, 5:41 PM
Post #9 of 23
(5313 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 57
|
My son is 12 years old, and an avid climber. He participates in every indoor and outdoor comp he can wheedle me into driving him to, including USCCA and ABS, and he is at the climbing gym 3 or 4 times a week. This is HIS choice. He loves to climb, he loves to compete, and yes, he loves to win prizes or just a ribbon.
Before he climbed, it was soccer, lacrosse, baseball and football -- again, all HIS choice. Personally, I am happy that he has found a sport that he will be able to enjoy as an adult as well.
If it turns out that he climbs well enough to compete at world events, or the Olympics, I hope he will have that opportunity regardless of his age.
Is it possible that you just don't like the fact that these young kids climb better than you?
|
|
|
|
|
treehugger
Jan 5, 2004, 7:24 PM
Post #10 of 23
(5313 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 21, 2003
Posts: 53
|
In reply to: Is it possible that you just don't like the fact that these young kids climb better than you?
I don't think this was in the tone of the original (or any) post on the the topic. It is more of a general question, based on concern for kids and the toll that high-level competitive sports can take on pre- and adolescent bodies.
While this is a legitimate question, I'd be willing to bet that there has been very little physiological study done on the matter. I've heard anecdotal evidence that climbing from a younger age leads to strong tendon development, but that's not saying much. I suppose there could be bunches of twisted fingered teens who will never hold a pen again cursing their decision to become competitive climbers, but we'd never hear. I'd be interested in the types of injuries that kids tend to sustain, and what kind of recovery they've had to go through. Rock climbing injuries ( training injuries, not fall-and-crack-your-head-open-when-pro-fails injuries) tend to be to soft connective tissues that are a notorious pain to rehab. Climbers who start young and climb hard may be opening themselves up to chronic injuries of this sort...that would be my concern at least. There will always be phenoms, but moderation and variety is, as always, good advice.
|
|
|
|
|
madriver
Jan 5, 2004, 7:38 PM
Post #11 of 23
(5313 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 17, 2001
Posts: 8700
|
hooker wrote:
In reply to: All too often all sports today have been taken over by adults. It has become more about winning? than it is participating. Whatever level my kids get involve, I will minimize their exposure to extremely organized situations, as these seem to have the most issues rotaing around them. I think more lossely organized sports tend to let the kids just be kids, and to me, as someone that had no childhood , due to gymnastics, that's important. Suzanne
...I appreciate your perspective. As I have none at the level you, my daughter, and Tarts son compete at. As the father of a 12 year old climber that competes at the National level, I am amazed at her drive, her competitiveness, and determination to win. I never had this motivation at anything. She has at times become "overwrought" with fear of failure. It is a continual struggle with her. At several comps where she has started out poorly, she will cry with frustration. After a "Cooling Off" period she will come back to the comp and usually do quite well. Again, I have NO experience at this level of competition, but it seems to me that her ability to regain composure and return to the comp is a most worthwhile "Life Experience". She has learned to confront her failures and overcome them. Her determination to win should reward her in her adult life to come.
competing at this level is NOT for everyone. Obviously it is for a select few. Those who compete at this level regardless of age, I have the utmost respect for. Parents who Force or Manipulate their child into competing will most likely be rebelled against by that child. If the child wants to train and compete at this level I would hope the parent would be "a parent" and make the right decisions. It is amazing to watch these kids climb and compete. They are the future and they are pushing the envelope. The thought of 12 year olds climbing 5.12 and V6 is staggering when you think about what will it be like 10 years from now!
Parent in Training,
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
madriver
Jan 5, 2004, 10:38 PM
Post #12 of 23
(5313 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 17, 2001
Posts: 8700
|
...as for injuries....
...when my charge strecthed a tendon in her forearm...she stopped climbing for over a month and learned how to warm up properly. It's interesting to me that climbing for kids (per your topic) should be "downplayed" or done for fun and recreation and not pursued competitively. What about Football, Basketball, and Baseball. By the time kids are 12-13 years old if they have not participated in these sports and become proficient in them they have virtually no chance of making a varsity team. I don't know what is right or wrong in terms of encouring a kid who shows talent at a given sport. If I had a son at the age of six that had a high skill level in any sport I would encourage and facilitate that sport. I don't know if I would become a "Tiger Woods" dad, but I would give him all possible means to pursue that sport.
still learning..
Bob
|
|
|
|
|
invicta
Jan 5, 2004, 11:25 PM
Post #13 of 23
(5313 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 18, 2002
Posts: 52
|
I have just turned sixteen myself, and over the years i have found myself being no good at more conventional sports such as baseball basketball and so on...and found climbing as a sport that i was decent at and progress, meet people (be them my age or not, as the climbing community here is more university aged) and esape the organized sporting events and soccer parent mom type parents that come with hockey and gymnastics and whatnot... I have competed at local competitions, (at the club level) and have found that as it is nice to win and proove yourself, but couldnt this intense high level competitions turn off such young climbers, as at 12 or 13 kids may not take loosing or not winning all to well, especially if they are being pushed by sponsors or parents....My opinion.
Andrew
|
|
|
|
|
tart
Jan 7, 2004, 6:08 PM
Post #14 of 23
(5313 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 57
|
My older son's friend, a senior in high school, has now lost his football scholarship to an Ivy college after sustaining a serious concussion in the last game which will prevent him from playing football again. Try banning kids from participating in that sport! Football is what keeps most high schools afloat, financially. I personally know 3 high school girls who have had ACL injuries and surgery due to soccer. From attending climbing comps all around the country, I know of only one under-18 climber who has a serious and permanent injury due to climbing, and he climbed at Worlds this fall anyway, with his mother's permission. He placed 1st in speed, by the way.
Let's face it -- injuries will happen, regardless of the sport. And kids will play sports no matter what.
Any responsible parent has to make the decision FOR THEIR OWN CHILD to determine what sport and to what level is appropriate. And I wouldn't want anyone -- especially a non-parent -- to make this decision for me. To hold an accomplished athlete back from competing because of age is ridiculous.
|
|
|
|
|
madriver
Jan 7, 2004, 6:41 PM
Post #15 of 23
(5313 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 17, 2001
Posts: 8700
|
...WHAT SHE SAID ....^
Ditto
|
|
|
|
|
risos
Jan 7, 2004, 7:42 PM
Post #16 of 23
(5313 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 7, 2003
Posts: 79
|
The problem with Gimnastics and believe me I used to train gimnastics since I was 5 is that when you get to the competitive edge, especially on girls you must be very small in order to move a lot and in order to do that you must not eat alot... most world class gimasts at the age of 15 suffer from osteoporosis and bone related problems so as long as those kids stay healthy and dont starve just for the sake of performance we should be fine.
|
|
|
|
|
jakedatc
Jan 7, 2004, 11:01 PM
Post #17 of 23
(5313 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 11054
|
I think that alot of parents that have climbing kids at high levels are also climbers themselves (from the ones i know are) and they need to educate them on how to train so that their tendons keep up with their muscle growth. (think little leaguers staying away from curve balls to prevent little league elbow).
The person who posted about ACL tears for soccer(also bball and lacrosse) girls has been researched alot and has to do with the Q-angle of the femur coming from the hip (and i think some hormone issues too) It is getting more prevalent(sp?) due to more girls playing these sports and it being more common knowledge
From the east coast it's amazing to watch meg, nadya, vicky, zeb, vasya compete against people almost twice their age and do very well. It's not even the age difference.. it's the experience gap that is interesting.
that said.. congrats to Vic on her recent 2nd in intermediate womens at HP40.. (nice pics also)
jake
|
|
|
|
|
climberterp
Jan 7, 2004, 11:58 PM
Post #18 of 23
(5313 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 16, 2003
Posts: 386
|
I think competitive climbing for kids is good in the right situations and bad in the wrong ones, just like any other competitive sport kids participate in. If the child's desire is the driving force, and the parents and coaches support the child and provide appropriate training then what could be wrong with that? If, on the other hand, the child is being forced into something s/he doesn't want to do, or is causing permanent damage to his/her body b/c of improper training or supervision then that's a different story. I don't think there's anything about climbing as a sport that makes it inappropriate for kids to compete in. I think that having competed in gymnastics through my childhood and college has benefitted me in many ways (heck, it led me to climbing!); I hope when I have kids they find a sport that excites them and motivates them to challenge themselves.
|
|
|
|
|
tart
Jan 8, 2004, 12:54 AM
Post #19 of 23
(5313 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 30, 2003
Posts: 57
|
Sorry this is long -- either read it or don't -- but after this, I am putting the subject to rest:
When my son was 9, he climbed for the first time at camp. The director of rock climbing told us that Michael had the potential to be a competitive climber -- "he was a natural." I was against it initially because of my own fear of heights (I'm not a climber at all) and the perceived danger of the sport, but for a year and a half, he bugged me day after day to let him climb again.
I finally relented and signed him up for lessons at our local gym. The coach of the competitive team recruited him within a month, and a month after that, he was in finals at USCCA Nationals.
I did my research and spoke to his pediatrician, and to a friend who was the doctor for the Olympics in Seoul, Korea. The consensus seemed to be that as long as he was only lifting his own body weight, there would be no damage to his growth plates or tendons.
In the year and a half that he's been climbing and competing, his strength and overall fitness have improved dramatically. He finished in the top 1 percent for 17 year olds in the Presidential Fitness challenge -- at the age of 11.
He's a great climber -- he and madriver's daughter have really made the "Arthur" name a name to respect in kids climbing. But he doesn't always win -- and he is learning to deal with that too. It is a great lesson for kids to compete and both win and lose.
|
|
|
|
|
madriver
Jan 8, 2004, 1:29 AM
Post #20 of 23
(5313 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 17, 2001
Posts: 8700
|
In reply to: From the east coast it's amazing to watch meg, nadya, vicky, zeb, vasya compete against people almost twice their age and do very well
..thanks Jake...thats some pretty impresive company you mention along with Vic...! :D
|
|
|
|
|
jakedatc
Jan 8, 2004, 5:30 AM
Post #21 of 23
(5313 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 11054
|
Well just going off your pics she boulders V6 or higher.. not too many of her on routes but over 10d is pretty damn good too. But in context with this thread it's cool to see you, loran, vasya/nadya's zeb/nika's parents that are supportive and not overbearing.
At the RIRG comp i don't think i ever heard a word from those last 4's parents while they were climbing.. and that included the first 3 in the open finals competing for $2000. They just stood back and watched while everyone else did the encouraging.. (it was my first time seeing a comp and boy was it good)
Jake
|
|
|
|
|
biff
Jan 15, 2004, 5:10 PM
Post #22 of 23
(5313 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 5, 2001
Posts: 851
|
Wow .. its been a long time since I started this topic, and I am very encouraged by everyone's thoughtful comments. I think this is the first thread that has remaind on topic for quite a while.
The thing I find most intersting is that kids compete against adults, and quite often win, but more importantly, they feel comfortable competing against adults.
I think it is a great life experiance for youth to compete with older competitors. It allows them to realize that they are becoming adults, and I would assume that their self confidence, and responsibility benifit from the competition. The best thing is that the older climber seem to respect the youth athletes, something that doesn't happen when a 16year old soccer player starts playing in a men's league. It seems climbers are cool about their sport.
|
|
|
|
|
stuckinschool
Jan 15, 2004, 5:55 PM
Post #23 of 23
(5313 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 15, 2004
Posts: 3
|
i am 16 years old and i started about 4 years ago, around that age, and i was doing some crazy stuff. i think that as long as they have somebody around and they know what they are doing, then they should be allowed. i mean rock climbing is a free sport for everybody. i think that if we say that 12 year olds cant do it than that would be wrong because it is a sport that challenges you, and if they have to do that to be challenged than go ahead. you can only do something that isn't a challenge for so long. that is the point of climbing to me. to push yourself,a nd it's a challenge. it also gives them something to look foward to. i could be wrong, but this is just how i feel.
|
|
|
|
|
|
