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opheliaascending
Feb 11, 2005, 12:53 AM
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I'm a n00b. No problem with my n00bness, but yesterday I really embarrassed myself.
At the gym, this more experienced climber had brought a few boy scouts so they could earn a badge. My friend and I were climbing nearby and she had brought a young boy, bout 8 or so, heavy kid. He likes to belay, but hasn't done it very often and not w/out supervision. So, anyway, boy scout leader (he's a nice guy, but don't know his name) puts this boy scout on the easy route there and gives the belay end to the 8 year old. The boy scout very visibly outweighs the 8 year old and I don't know how good of a climber he is, so I was nervous about the 8 year old belaying him by himself. So, I went over and told him I'd back him up, so I got behind him and held the rope through my atc. We did fine until the scout started coming down. When he did, the scout leader came over and watched, without saying anything. Made me a little nervous and I felt like I was cutting in or something, but hey, I was sorta responsible for the belayer.
Well, I didn't think much about it until I saw him backing up the same duo a few minutes later and he was just using a body belay for the back up, instead of getting the rope hung up on two ATCs.
I think I should talk to him tonight if he's there and tell him why I did what I did and that I should just be excused for my n00bness and for doing what I thought was safe, which turned out to be excessively so.
Any thoughts?
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dingus
Feb 11, 2005, 1:02 AM
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In reply to: but yesterday I really embarrassed myself. I think I should talk to him tonight if he's there and tell him why I did what I did and that I should just be excused for my n00bness and for doing what I thought was safe, which turned out to be excessively so. Any thoughts?
Talk to him, sure girl, he may end up being a good partner for you. But don't worry about your atc thing lady, tain't no big deal AT ALL.
Seriously, if this is your biggest mistake as a noob you're going to live to be 100.
And betrwixt you and me? Just HOLDING the rope would do the same. See, if your 8 year old drops the rope? Your hand is already on the rope to take over belay duty. No need to wrap it behind your back or anything, unless that kid being lower weighed 500 lbs or something. It's not like his belay device is going to fall off his harness or anything, right?
But girlfriend? Don't feel like an ass over being careful with someone else's children, ya dig??? I'm sure their parents would be comforted knowing you went overboard to make sure they were safe.
Later!
DMT
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lambone
Feb 11, 2005, 2:13 AM
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I don't think there is anything wrong with backing up a suspect belayer, and you should NOT feel like a donkey! I taught belay class 101 in a gym for years, and would never hesitate to grab a rope when things were sketch.
However, the extra (double) ATC is probably overkill. You can just hang on to the brake end of the rope and lock off should they loose control, you shouldn't need another device. Even if the climber is twice the size of the belayer, your extra grip should be enough to keep them on the ground and keep the rope in control. In this case it's also good to warn the belayer that they are going to get lifted off the ground, so they don't freak out and let go of the rope...
Keep in mind I would try to do this inconspicously, by standing behind the belayer and holding the rope loose enough so it didn't effect their belaying. You don't want to give them the impression that you are taking over and they are no longer in control of the rope.
I would usually say somethink like, 'hey, i'm just going to hang on to the slack as a backup, pretend I'm not even here." the student or kid would usualy appreciate this and not be put off or discouraged by it. You don't want them to think they can't handle the situation. Your just there for encouragement and support.
On a more philosophical note, NEVER second guess your intuition in climbing. if you are uncomfortable with the situation, it's probly because something is not right, which is when bad things happen. It's an unwritten ( well, maybe Largo wrote it down) rule in climbing that it's your responsibility to speak up and take action if you see something dangerous going on. You made the right call when being cautious, especially with kids...because they usually don't know any better. The gym is a "safer" environment to climb in, but it's still dangerous and I have seen several people get badly hurt from being careless.
Also, 8 years old is very young for a kid to be belaying unsupervised. Our gym had a rule of 14 yrs old to belay unless with a supervised group or special training (climbing team).
hope that helps,
cheers
sorry for the spelling
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tdah
Feb 11, 2005, 4:13 AM
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ditto about the fact that you did no wrong. so you were a little extra cautious; now you know how to safely back someone up. you should only feel like a donkey if you did nothing. i don't care how much the climber weighs; 8 years old is waaay too young to belay on your own as far as i'm concerned.
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jammer
Feb 11, 2005, 2:59 PM
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Your heart was in the right place. Like everything we do for the first time, we usually fuck it up one way or another. Or we look back and beat ourselves with what we could have done better. You did well and if I had witnessed this, I would have let you know that it was appreciated.
And, BTW, Donkey made Shrek worth watching ... you're in excellent company!
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fixednut
Feb 11, 2005, 3:37 PM
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Let this be yet another lesson to everyone about boy scouts.
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dynosore
Feb 11, 2005, 3:46 PM
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Don't second guess yourself. You did the right thing. You did it safely, if a little overkill, oh well. Watching the kid deck, when you could have intervened? That would be when you question your decision. Good job.
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cracklover
Feb 11, 2005, 3:53 PM
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First of all, you're not an ass.
If you're providing a backup belay, the first thing to check is that there's nothing wrong with the way the belay device is set up on the primary belayer.
Once you are assured of that fact, a backup to the belay requires exactly one hand.
Think of the primary belayer as an anchor attached to the ground and to the belay device. All you need to do is lock off the rope, and the climber cannot fall.
When I provide a backup belay, i kneel below and to the right (assuming the belayer is right handed), and leave enough slack so that I don't interfere with the belayer's motions, but can stop the climber before they hit the ground if anything goes wrong.
Make sense?
GO
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overlord
Feb 11, 2005, 4:08 PM
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second atc might not be a bad idea. if the climebr REALLY outweights the belayer he might be pulled with such force that you just couldnt stop the fall with bare hands.
though that situation is highly unlikely in the gym.
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j_ung
Feb 11, 2005, 4:18 PM
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Good on ya' opheliaascending. You did nothing wrong and you did lots of it. You da (wo)man.
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rangertau
Feb 11, 2005, 4:24 PM
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When we train new climbers/belayers we often do the very same technique with sketchy belayers.
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cracklover
Feb 11, 2005, 4:44 PM
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In reply to: second atc might not be a bad idea. if the climebr REALLY outweights the belayer he might be pulled with such force that you just couldnt stop the fall with bare hands. though that situation is highly unlikely in the gym.
I respectfully disagree. If the climber significantly outweighs the belayer, the belayer should be anchored in. Why would you need two belay devices?
If you anchor the belayer, the force goes directly from the climber's side of the rope, through the belay loop, and into the floor. If the belayer completely loses control, all you need to do is break just as hard as you normally would.
GO
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opheliaascending
Feb 11, 2005, 4:59 PM
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Thanks for making me feel a little less dorky.
He wasn't there last night, but that's ok. I'm sure I'll see him around sometime and now that I know what I did wasn't that bad, I'm not worried about him thinking I'm a first class dope.
Just an overcautious n00b. 8^)
I'm ok widdat.
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troutboy
Feb 11, 2005, 5:10 PM
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In reply to: On a more philosophical note, NEVER second guess your intuition in climbing.
I know this is off topic, but I would expand this to:
NEVER second guess your intuition in ANYTHING.
This is especially true for women out climbing, running, biking, whatever alone (or with strangers). Cops will tell ya, rape crisis counselors will tell, psychologists/psychiatrists will tell ya. If your gut says something is amiss, it probably is. Do not ignore it.
Now, back to climbing stuff...
T
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scarpenter
Feb 22, 2005, 11:19 PM
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So, your friend brought the 8 year old? And some stranger had him belay? Or were you backing up some stranger's child?
Either way you did the right thing, but I'm just trying to figure out how that went down.
I'm one of the main climbing people in my local Scout council, and I'll tell you this is not indicative of Scout climbing, but may be a symptom of a larger "disease" within that troop. Still, I want to say " :?: " for now - I'll hold " :shock: " for later.
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tradrenn
Feb 23, 2005, 3:26 AM
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You did very well if you ask me I still do that at our gym and it is ok. Bottom line is that you took care for a greater couse, for all of us and them. So don't feel bad, you are a quiet hero. Perhaps this guy so you thought about it and thought "That's a good idea".
Rock on
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