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brianinslc


Feb 11, 2005, 7:31 AM
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guess again.

Hmmm. Some of those routes on Twin Brother and Mountain of the Sun are pretty long...but...so's West Temple...hmmm....

How 'bout NE face of Lady Mountain?

After that, I got nothin'.

-Brian in SLC


dingus


Feb 11, 2005, 8:22 AM
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I milktoast feel like my name sounds, burnt toast dunked in warm milk, and getting soggy...

, slim food for two days, an ounce of washington's finest indoor weed, a bottle of tequila, a bottle of single malt scotch, and a case of cheap beer in cans ( 24 beers, not 12 like some people call cases )

Milktoast, are you SURE we're not related???

I've been a Milktoast for a long long time so you have to appreciate how odd it is to see a brother in arms as it were.

Clearly though, we belong to the Merican branch (someone tried to correct my spelling once, gave me that brit bullshit spelling Milquetoast, so I shot em right between the eyes, hehe)

Nice TR

DMT


dmckj


Feb 11, 2005, 8:47 AM
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Hey.....I'm Back..

And more than happy to see the thread lives on and folks are jumping.

Hey John, great to hear you're 'back' from wherever it is you were. Send me a 'PM' personal message on this site and I'll send you my email.

I got a climbing permit for Lech....(hee hee).

Great to see we'e got a Timbertop installment.

Been off on a work assignment and will gear up for my next series of installments.

Hang tight!


dmckj


Feb 11, 2005, 8:53 AM
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Zully and I more than friends! Was this possible?

Uh, er, hmm..., sigh, well...

Actually, I intimated same in the thread, but of course none of the thread readers would have the slighest interest in all of the detailed carnal interludes...(or would they?).

Which leads me to a name I have waiting in the wings, based on a traumatizing relationship I had with a b$%&ch of an Aeromexico first class flight attendant. The route to be will be called 'Come Fly With Me'.


brianinslc


Feb 11, 2005, 9:14 AM
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Here's something I've been wondering...

I occasionally run into bits of webbing in the Zion backcountry, finished with a water knot, where the ends of the webbing are finished in a distinctive point on one end, and a notch (that the point would fit into) on the other end.

Any idea who does this?

Noticed it after a climb up to the Cathedral/Majestic mesa. Via a route that was more akin to post holing in deep snow but had around four 5th class pitches, a couple with aid (up the gully on the north side between Cathedral and Majestic). We descended the canyon that runs south between Cathedral and Majestic, behind the Spearhead, and exits out just to the climber's right of Behunin. At the snout of the canyon, where it gets real steep and less a canyon than a steep chimney slot, we ran into single bolts with the sling configuration mentioned above. First one we hit was on a large boulder at the top of the drop. Then around 70 feet down to another bolt/sling inside the chimney. Then 80 feet to yet another bolt/sling. Then a sling on a chockstone. Then a pair of lost arrow pitons on a ledge for the final 150 foot rappel to the ground. Bolts were 3/8" rawl studs with SMC hangers and the webbing was 1" green.

I've always assumed the bolts and webbing were from "someone's" ascent of the Spearhead.

Idears?

-Brian in SLC


dmckj


Feb 11, 2005, 9:39 AM
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To Deuce and the guy who was asking about Dancing With Zully

Rap anchors are IN on Dancing With Zully. Think Brad Quinn and friends probably did it on a second ascent (e.g. I advised them to do so at the time).

All you need is a standard free rack on the route. The cracks vary from thin to fist, so plan accordingly. Basically a standard rack will do (bring a small selection of small to medium nuts).

Go to the park visitor's center and find the topo under Mt. Spry. (My topo is extremely detailed as to how to find it). Approach by going about 200 yards up the main canyon road, standing back to look at the rock (on your right going up canyon), find splitter barely visible at base (pitch 2 this is), and following a the logical long scree slope that leads pretty much straight up to its base.

The first pitch is the crux and a bit intimidating. You have to climb a bit above a bolt (sandbag 10+, real 11-) and then pull off a mantle on a good ledge at the end. After this there is a trickily protected (hidden nuts) move or 3 off the ledge. When I reclimbed this route I recalled wondering what kind of stud put up the first pitch, and then I came to my senses and realized it was only me (HAH! There's that resounding laugh again.) Rest of the route is purely fun and beautiful and solid.

If you are studly you can do Dancing.. an Sandblaster... in a day.

BTW, John is right when he says he got the verbal O.K. on presenting the routes in the Rock and Ice article. And I was pointing this out ONLY to make a point to no_one. What I didn't expect was that my BEAUTIFUL (if I say so immodestly) location topo of the East Temple was, literally, reprinted almost word for word and line for line in the R+I article. It would have been nice if there were a credit that read something like 'This topo, which is quite possibly the world's best ever, was kindly and graciously released from its propriety cloak by none other than the infamous, humble, conceptually, and artistically gifted David Jones'. You know, some simple and unassuming recognition like this....or maybe instead just some free women and beer. Go ahead, call me shallow..


tenesmus


Feb 11, 2005, 11:21 AM
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In reply to:
All you need is a standard free rack on the route. The cracks vary from thin to fist, so plan accordingly. Basically a standard rack will do (bring a small selection of small to medium nuts).

Go to the park visitor's center and find the topo under Mt. Spry. (My topo is extremely detailed as to how to find it). Approach by going about 200 yards up the main canyon road, standing back to look at the rock (on your right going up canyon), find splitter barely visible at base (pitch 2 this is), and following a the logical long scree slope that leads pretty much straight up to its base.

The first pitch is the crux and a bit intimidating. You have to climb a bit above a bolt (sandbag 10+, real 11-) and then pull off a mantle on a good ledge at the end. After this there is a trickily protected (hidden nuts) move or 3 off the ledge. When I reclimbed this route I recalled wondering what kind of stud put up the first pitch, and then I came to my senses and realized it was only me (HAH! There's that resounding laugh again.) Rest of the route is purely fun and beautiful and solid.

If you are studly you can do Dancing.. an Sandblaster... in a day.
Thanks - It sounds like a good time. Now I have something else to get psyched for!


deuce4


Feb 11, 2005, 12:58 PM
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Dave wrote:
In reply to:
It would have been nice if there were a credit that read something like 'This topo, which is quite possibly the world's best ever, was kindly and graciously released from its propriety cloak by none other than the infamous, humble, conceptually, and artistically gifted David Jones'. You know, some simple and unassuming recognition like this....or maybe instead just some free women and beer.

Dang, I figured that having your name plastered all over the FA credits would have had resulted in crowds of women knocking at your door... Oh, I forgot, it's rock climbing, not rock n' roll, after all. Still, you'd figure the "rock" theme was good for something.

oh well


rocknroll


Feb 11, 2005, 1:18 PM
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Conclusion to Timbertop

Mark jugged the fixed line to the ledge as I prepared a very neat anchor and haul set up. The last thing I wanted was Ron to criticize my efforts.

"Hey what's taking so long up there?" yelled Ron.

Mark had almost jugged to the belay and could see me furiously trying to build the haul system. I needed to open one carabiener that held the rack but it was already weighted. In a low voice I said to Mark. "Hey can you unweight for one minute. I got to fix something."

Mark wasn't happy about this obvious scew up. "Mike," he said, " It's a sheer wall, nothing to stand on except jam in the crack"

"Do it!" I said in hushed voice.

Mark got into the crack, and it was barely enough to unweight the rope. As I got the gate of the beiner open, Mark rearranged his position and unweighted the rope even more. The carabiener flipped around and the rack was free, sliding down the wall to a small sloping shelf which then propelled it out into space. Mark released one hand jam, threw his arm behind him and caught it.

"What the hell is going on up there?" yelled Ron.

"uh, nothing..."

Mark gave me a stern look."

"Watch your sh-t." he said.

After hauling our loads to the small ledge, we looked upwards at Ron's next pitch: a beautiful 2"-3" crack. Ron quickly got into the business. He placed a number 3 friend and attched his aiders to it.

"Ron," I asked "aren't you going to free it? That crack is exquisite"

"Shut up. Don't you know anything? I'm not going to waste my time and energy hanging from handjams trying to place pro. This is a lot faster."

When Ron was out of ear shot I said to Mark, "Faster? Aid climbing is so slow. But then again, I doubt he'd run it out; probably would sew it up like an aid climb anyway, that is, if he could even free it"

I was getting ranckled. "At least he didn't criticize my anchor set-up. See everything nice and neat...haul line coiled here, hauling anchor out to the side."

Really, Mike" said Mark, "You can't let him get to you. Pay attention." I took Mark's words to heart and scanned the anchor set up for any potential snags.

"Oh sh-t"

"what?"

"The lead line and the haul line are tied in at the half way point. I got to untie those before he starts yanking on them". Ron yelled something unintelligible from above. "a few more moves and he'll be there."

I quickly tried to turn around the beaner that held the lead line. The rope was beginning to get taught.

Mark yelled up to Ron."Wait a minitue, Ron!"

"What the hell! "yelled Ron.

"Mike, be careful." said Mark," Ignore him."

"What the hell is going on?" yelled Ron.

I fervantly tried to free the rope. I struggled with the beaner against Ron's pulling. Finally I flipped it around, open the gate and the rack of pitons flew into space. And this time there was no one to catch it.

Mark said nothing. Ron was still yelling.

"Climb on " I yelled.

"You know that every baby angle we had was on that rack. We have to go down.... You let him get to you."

At least I had an excuse, Ron's intolerable ravings, until Mark let me have it. "I;m done with this climb. Mike I am not afraid of you unclippimg the rack. I am afraid of you unclipping me!" And he began to ready the ropes for rappel.

To face the wrath of Ron after this blunder! But Ron spared me when he arrived at the ledge. "I am not going to say a word about this screw up. It's not worth it".

After Ron left the ledge I kept thinking about Mark's word. My good friend and ally now thought that I was dangerous. And now everything I had lived for had come to an end. The film, school, the climb, my friends. Niether climber would want to climb with me again. I heard Mark's words echo in my head.

"Mike I am not afraid of you unclippimg the rack. I am afraid of you unclipping me!"

I heard Ron yell off rappel and set up my rap and went to unclip from the anchor - and...

I was already unclipped!

I had been so consumed with it all, pouting away on that ledge and didn't even realize that I wasn't even tied in the anchor.


dmckj


Feb 11, 2005, 1:30 PM
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Hey All,

Time for a little 'history', not necessarily noteworthy, but history nonetheless.

By sheer dumb luck I ended up working out of St. George, Utah for a short time in 78 and then on a more regular basis starting in 79 and then 80. I had first been in Zion many times as a kid crossing the country with my mother and family on camping trips on the way from Connecticut to California. Fun stuff that was, and even as a 9 year old I though Zion was 'cooler' and more friendly than the Grand Canyon.

Ending up with St. George as a base was a fantasy to me. I would occasionally drive up into Zion canyon in my company rig and get out and look at the rock. I went up to the base of 'Boring Crack' and could not for the life of me figure out how it was 'only' 5.9, not knowing it was fair game to start in the tree. At some point I recall seeing a posterboard Dangle had made of his very recent first ascent of Archangel with photos and recalling his solo effort. I believe he had 'presented' this in a bicycle shop in St. George that also served as a climber's store, sort of.

Anyway, I recall first climbing Boring Crack without Friends and being duly impressed with how hard 5.9's were in Zion. At some point I saw the line of Cerberus and immediately decided I 'had to' climb it. On a journey with Josh Lieberman on our way to Yosemite we did just that. At that's when I first met Dangle, and that's when Dangle and I climbed Moonlight. (Still working on the dates folks).

Without bogging down in the first ascent details, I will say I was an immediate convert to Dangle's philosophy of 'only-the-red-rock-to-the false-rim-is-worth-climbing'. So I had zero interest in climbing routes with a lot of 'white rock' (although there are some notable exceptions).

John M. put together a good very general summary of the climbing history of Zion. As far as my own contributions go, I will only make two minor corrections to John's history: 1) Although I may have added a lot of free pitches and tried to get out of my aiders, I certainly wasn't raising absolute free climbing standards by any means -- maybe I was pushing them for Zion, but that was about it -- hell, almost ALL of the time I went to Zion I was fully off-the-couch and was nowhere near climbing at my abilities; 2) Without question, however, we (Steve Chardon and I with some help from Mark Pey) raised aid standards to a level that hadn't been seen, and only maybe very recently has been exceeded. I was a Yosemite wall rat, and I really did want to put up big nail-ups. So, the hard three that we did were, in chronological order, 'Lost in Transit' (Twin Brother), 'Wages of Sin' (Forbidden Wall), and 'Empty Pages' (Angel's Landing). There was nothing remotely comparable to the difficulty of any of these routes in the Park at the time, and for a long time afterwards. As they were put up, Wages.. and Empty Pages... were, by almost any standards, serious A4+/5. And these were in the pre-bird beak days where I could only use RURPS. The guy who did the second ascent of Empty Pages (Geo Schunk) called it 'solid A5'. Maybe, maybe not, but very sustained and hard, scary, etc, nevertheless.

So, in my opinion, from a historical perspective the difficulty of these aid routes was MUCH more important than the difficulty and any free climbing I did. What I did try to do, however, was avoid bolts unless absolutely necessary.

So what happened? Why did I drift away from the nail-ups.

Four simple reasons:

1) There weren't ANY climbers in Zion, let alone people who wanted to do seriously difficult and commiting routes. My best partner, Steve Chardon, got married and that was pretty much it for climbing after a few years. I simply could NOT find anyone who wanted to do such routes (except Dangle when he and I did Spaceshot).

2) Hardly anyone ever wanted to repeat wall routes with aid.....period. People would jump on Cerberus and Moonlight and Monkeyfinger, but the much more serious routes hardly anyone would repeat.

(You can imagine how 'lonely' this felt. No one who wanted to put up or climb such harder routes.)

3) Resorting to the local climbers I could find, these folks were pretty much all free-climbing oriented and were not whatsoever 'wall people'. So mixed routes with a little aid were fine, but not big nail-ups. That's when I put up all of the East Temple routes. They were just free-climbing plumbs waiting to be had.

4) Free climbing is, frankly, more fun, and the more I found more and more free-climbeable lines, the more I liked it, and the more it became a 'goal'.

I thought Zion would experience a 'logical' shift away from nail-ups (which, remember, no one would do!!) and towards free routes. Very, very ironically, this turned out not to be the case. Towards the end of my most prolific 'new route' period of largley free and clean lines a whole new generation of big wall nail-up climbers entered the park. This really amazed me!! Where were they when I had needed them 15-20 years earlier???? I was perplexed.

But by that time it didn't matter. Bagging free lines like Shune's Buttress and The Vigil (Watchman) was a lot more fun than dragging iron up a rock for 3 days (to me anyway). Or better yet, I prefer the 'let's go for it!' attitude of commiting to getting up without bivies. Adds a lot of thrill to the push day!

If one is selective, the quality of free climbing in Zion is just outstanding. After spending years in Yosemite I simply can't, in all honesty, think of better free routes than, for example Lovelace, Shune's, and the Vigil. And of course great routes that will soon go all free such as 'Hello Mary Lou' and 'Golden Years'. (Not to mention other classics such as Iron Messiah and Moonlight).

Anyway, that's just me talking from how I see it. Thanks for allowing me this small moment of self-indulgence.

'Drinking Beer, Are Ya?' is coming soon....


dangle


Feb 11, 2005, 2:20 PM
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Joined in part by some that do indeed seem to be yipping at the smell of blood the board of directors of the Disaffected Ron Olevsky Partners Defamers Entertainment And Discussion Group, better known by their acronym DROP DEAD, is well into a record setting tag team marathon campaign with the usual backup of ancient grudges.

Has all of this regurgitated bile been a reaction to my attempting to discredit a misleading phrase in a guidebook? An attempt that may have been rebutted with the simple list of ascents? An attempt with the obvious intent of getting credit to Scott Fischer who Dave "never even met"(pg2) but turns out by pg9 he HAS met??? Is this the same Dave Jones that holds harsh words for bolts he deems unnecessary who also pretends that with the two of us as "Whillans and Harding" HE PLAYS HARDING????

Something isn't passing the smell test.

And who doesn't love Jones' disingenuous suggestion for the whole planet to just stop by the visitor center?
This is cyberspace Dave, just list the data.

How's this for interesting coincidences; while my herbal preference is well documented Mike Strassman who continued to share my roof and rope into the '90s stated on another thread here that he had done "Peruvian marching powder" on Half Dome yet his "account" suggests it was I who carried cocaine in his epic fable.

Anybody else notice how often Mike posts in the wee hours of the morning?


Ah yes and Brian's tale like so many told here uses "narrative gaps" to "heighten intrigue". That's a nice way to refer to neglecting to tell about how, unable to cajole his friend Terry into not smoking with the Evil Olevsky, he may have attempted more threatening means...

Those aren't just mouse turds. I'm starting to smell a rat.


But back to DROP DEAD's titular head Dave "Warren" Jones. Did anyone wonder after a dozen page rant why a person so offended at having his word questioned would unabashedly claim to having asked to see a bill for a few dollars from a person who until later that day he called a friend?
Oh yes he would call me a liar for reiterating a fact reported on the very list he would use to support a different claim, but decades later.

So why does this erupt now?

Gee, they wouldn't be trying to discredit me just after I decide to approach mainstream media with my story about their friend's kids putting swastikas outside my house? The same kids that are now the stepchildren of a permanent Zion Park employee. The same park service that would hardly benefit from the photos of said sign gaining wide exposure. The same park service that Jones claims to be tight with (it was CHIEF ranger Roger Rudolph who said,"two asses on a MULE" when I was riding double with his daughter Kendra.)

Not enough suspicious coincidences? How's this; the lame excuse that was barely enough to avoid criminal charges related to said sign was that the kids thought I looked/acted like a Neo-nazi. (Throwing rocks and yelling,"F_cking Jew!" notwithstanding.) Could it be that the intense characterization of me as an abusive martinet and even "Little Hitler" was actually merely intended to support a cover story for an act of bigotry that otherwise could not be excused?

Now that's a TEAM of rats.


Well what do all the readers say to the DROP DEAD Group and their good buddy Woods laying their cards on the table?

I make the following offer;
I'll put up $10,000.00 in advance. I will also pay in advance for up to 3 of the most highly professional polygraph exams conducted by an examiner with decades of experience (about $2500.00 each). I will also put upin advance $1000.00 to go to each of the 3 people or less I select from Smoot, Strassman, Woods and Jones for all of their bother with the provision that all selected pass as honest on their allegations before April. If this comes to pass all examinees get to vote on what (acceptable) charitable organization(s) gets the 10K and what they should do with it. I am willing to prequalify AMGA, Access Fund or the AAC as acceptable, but disqualify the DROP DEAD vacation fund as they will each have 1K for passing.

Anyone found to be substantially deceptive pays for their exam. If the 3 trust each other they can each put up a third. This means that I would be risking more than 20 times as much as each of the DROP DEADers. Certainly they are honest enough to take a 20 to 1 shot at providing the climbing community with a 10K benefit and the added incentive for them is that it comes out of my pocket along with a grand for each of them who passes.

But if they show themselves to be the dishonest scoundrels they are besides paying the exam fee THEY MUST APOLOGIZE TO MY SATISFACTION OR AGREE TO NO LONGER POST ON r.c.com UNDER ANY NAME.

As for Deuce who clapped me on the back in a friendly manner at OR but who has also repeatedly refused in private to disclose the basis for guidebook/topo claims I offer a provisional welcome in the hopes that a larger audience will provide sufficient motivation to be a bit more descriptive regarding his research.
His friendship with Jones was never questioned by Steve (who by now all might surmise I really do play poker with) or myself but rather cited as a vested interest.

Is all of this over a phrase that might have been more accurate if it read (Bjornstad, Guide to the National Parks, pg 14) "In the late '70s and early eighties RESPECTIVELY Ron Olevsky and Dave Jones" yada yada, and conscious of the half right hair splitting nature of this position the proponents failed to define it? Perhaps more I think.

This book is actually the one with the accurate month and days but predates the FA of Space Shot by 2 years. How could that happen? And who was Deuce's partner when he discovered the"unnecessary bolt ladder" that doesn't even exist on Iron Messiah? C'mon John give us the skinny.


What say the rest of you? Fair enough???

(My guess is that to look honest the DROP DEAD Group will accept but then fail to follow through or else will want me to take a test which at their expense if passed is acceptable to me. Equivocation is another possibility, and there's always "answering a different question".)


rockprodigy


Feb 11, 2005, 2:21 PM
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Interesting thoughts Dave. By the way, any chance "Wages of Sin" is named for the Bruce Springsteen song? Probably not, but I thought I'd ask anyway.

I am very interested in your analysis of the free climbing and hard nailing scenes in zion. It's something I have thought about quite a bit. Why is there so much broad activity in Yosemite (big wall aid, long free, single pitch free, bouldering), while in Zion, "the masses" seem to only repeat the C1 aid routes?

In yosemite, every square inch of rock has been climbed, but people don't bother in Zion. I think there are a few reasons:

1: Typically, climbers don't add their own routes to an area until they have climbed many of the "classics". Since Zion is somewhat far from many climbing centers, and there are many other venues in the area to lure climbers away, there are very few climbers who have done all the classics and feel ready to step out into new territory.

2: There isn't a local scene equivalent to Camp 4. This plays into #1, but also exacerbates the problem because there isn't the same level of competition. What's the fun in working your ass off on a hard FA, if there's nowhere to go to gloat about it? And if there is nobody else waiting in C4 to steal your project, what's the hurry?

3: Yosemite is, pretty much, the only game in town. Any climber within a 500 mile radius climbs in Yosemite, so there are a lot of climbers spending a lot of time there. In zion, if you're the typical well-rounded climber living in the UT/CO/AZ/NV area, you may only make two trips to Zion a year to climb.

4: General Intimdation: I'm always amazed that people who climb 5.12 at Indian Creek will aid through 5.10 on Spaceshot, or 5.11 on Touchstone. For some reason, people are just scared in Zion, and they feel better hanging in aiders.

5: Lack of a comprehensive guidebook. Similar to the peer pressure issue, nothing motivates people like a good guidebook. It may not be a conscious decision, but I think climbers are more likely to pursue new route activity, or repeat hard existing routes when the information is in print and they can measure themselves against that yardstick.

It seems like the more I climb in Zion, the more I hear about other people and what else is going on, but at the same time, I also spend a lot of weekends in the canyon and don't see any other climbers, so I'm that much more aware of the solitude of the place. I wonder if the pace of zion climbing exploration is increasing or decreasing, or staying constant. I have a feeling that torch will always be carried by a small, lonely group of individuals who are motivated mostly by personal reasons, rather than fame, and that's the way it should be.


tenesmus


Feb 11, 2005, 2:53 PM
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4: General Intimdation: I'm always amazed that people who climb 5.12 at Indian Creek will aid through 5.10 on Spaceshot, or 5.11 on Touchstone. For some reason, people are just scared in Zion, and they feel better hanging in aiders.

5: Lack of a comprehensive guidebook. Similar to the peer pressure issue, nothing motivates people like a good guidebook. It may not be a conscious decision, but I think climbers are more likely to pursue new route activity, or repeat hard existing routes when the information is in print and they can measure themselves against that yardstick.
Yes and yes. I'm intimidated there. No doubt. I also squat when I pee though - so that isn't saying much. I think a guidebook would be so inspiring. I get so psyched by reading and knowing my way around.

But maybe that's the way people want it - I mean who wants crowds to come anyway. Maybe you should have to earn your way into knowing what's going on there.


dmckj


Feb 11, 2005, 3:02 PM
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I think someone said it most appropriately earlier in this thread.....


'Ssssnnaaappp!!!'


dangle


Feb 11, 2005, 5:00 PM
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Short on action AND articulate!


dmckj


Feb 11, 2005, 5:29 PM
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Dear fellows of D.R.O.P.D.E.A.D.,

As all of you should be aware from Dangle's last post, there has been a terrible breach of the sanctity of our organization.

It should NOT need to be noted that ALL of you took a solemn blood oath at the base of Touchstone Wall, on a moonless night, sober as judges, with our red black and white worker's party flag flapping gently in the evening canyon breeze. Our carefully planned and subtlely excuted mission of obscuring both Mr. Olevksy and others' fabled past and current climbing histories is in serious jeopardy. I see our conspiratorial efforts crashing down before my eyes. This is indeed a bitter pill.

Our past successes include such genius strokes as convincing others the world was flat, that the Apollo mission really made it to the moon, that Charmin really is more squeezable, that Kennedy was shot by a really pissed-off Marilyn Monroe, and that the Triumvirate Commision rules all.

Upon personal reflection, I must shoulder the major part of the blame as your titular leader. I have allowed us to rest upon the laurels and shoulders of these past successes (deep guilty sigh).

Accordingly......I shall not seek, nor will I accept, the nomination of my party to the term of your next leader. The torch should be passed on to a younger more promising leader....(aid or free)..

but, first, more cheezy intallments and sordid route name histories...


deuce4


Feb 11, 2005, 5:40 PM
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Nice stories...

Well, as the title of my Zion history article indicates, it was only a "brief history" of the place. It would be nice to recount more pioneers of the 70's and 80's, of which many have not been mentioned, like Chardon and others. Ron O has berated me several times for not including Scott Fisher in the brief history, I know Fisher did some bold routes, but not sure of where he pushed the standards in Zion. He used to come stay with me a few times when I was living in Hurricane, and we talked more about exploring the Himilayan regions (we were talking about guiding a trip to Nameless Tower the year he died) than about our climbs in Zion, so I am sure his modesty left much unsaid. Would like to hear more. When I wrote that history for the Bjonstadt guide (for the return of a full set of Bjornstadt Desert Rock guides!), I was looking at the outline of individuals who contibuted a sizable quantity of new routes. I knew absolutely that it left out a lot of pioneers, but it was limited to a few pages. I will have to dig out the box (a big box!) of binders of Zion topos and history sometime. Personally, I'm fascinated by the folks in the 30's who made the first forays on the wild vertical there. And how about that Beckey route on the Great White Throne--what a story that is--any of you new guys been on that? Supposed to only be 5.7. Would like to get my butt up there someday, probably need to train more. By the way, I think Fred is in in perpetual pursuit for partners for Touchstone, would love to hear about a ascent of that by him one of these days.

Stories: The moments I remember about Zion were times like when I was driving by one day after a light rain and the wall on Abraham was literally blindingly shining, it was so beautiful. I hiked up to the base immediately, finding the hidden paradise below, and became driven to climb it. Extracting my buddy Walt from Yosemite took some doing, and it was an awesome adventure. Lots of intense overhanging nailing, some bold free, and sporty boltless belays which had to be extensively engineered. We were in our element! We almost died on the descent--we only brought 4 gallons of water and it was hot--in the 100's-- and ran out the morning of day 4. We still found the energy to hike up to the actual summit. Our final day's descent was intense: dehydrated beyond belief to the point where every motion was excrutiating pain, like knitting needles piercing our flesh. At one point we rappelled from a single 5/8" piton hammered into a 1/4" hole in the softest of soft white Zion rock (it was still wobbling around that flaring hole). It was a pure hanging belay--no stance at all, near vertical. I still remember Walt flattening himself against the wall pushing with both hands flat against the loose piton with his eyes scrunched shut as I began the next rappel, which led to a small sloping ledge with a bush.

When Walt arrived, I was huddled in the little shade of the bush, only about two feet high, feeling near dead and exhausted beyond belief. Walt joined me. We sat there for some time. Then one of us managed the energy to get up and pull the rope. Stuck! A feeble effort, then back to the bush. Walt did the same. After a few rounds of this, we both clipped our jumars onto the line and tugged together. Still nothing. Back to the bush for quite a while. The silence was sweet and it began to seem like a good place to die. Then Walt got up in a burst of energy, clipped his jugs onto the line, and started jumping insanely on the line, cussing and screaming. Then: POW! both ends of the rope came down at once. The supertape sling must have broken. Walt lost his balance and was hopping one legged toward the edge, a 300 foot drop into the hanging valley below. Right on the edge he made a series of one legged hops, tettering on the brink. From the bush (not an anchor, just a twig really), I watched helplessly and trying to will his energy back to center, much like I sometimes do when I'm bowling a gutter ball. For a moment I imagined the fate, stuck there with and no rope and thoughts of my poor friend Walt perished below, and waiting to die myself (there was no chance of a rescue and there's no line of sight from the interior of the hanging valley to anywhere accessible without some serious climbing. Then, beyond all realms of physics and notions of center of balance, Walt regained his balance and crawled back to our stance. A close one.

The next few hours didn't seem so bad after that, and eventually we made it to the hanging waterfall between Abraham and Issac, running with sweet liquid pure lovely H20!

I think I may have typed up this story before, but it was fun to recount it here.

cheers
jm


dangle


Feb 11, 2005, 10:01 PM
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Well it was a table of mixed allegiances tonight (a friend of Ammon's sat next to me and called Justin a "f_cking jew". Really! And Ammon told me he hadn't seen any anti-semitism around here!) and Steve did outlast me despite my taking a huge pot when there were two 6s showing on the flop and I got my fourth on the river. Haven't pulled four of a kind often.

John, thanks for a good story and no trash.
Well Scott was not one to crow about higher standards or more walls but he walked the talk. There were others in the '70s especially the NOLS crowd which included Stacy, the Mikes (Alison and Stern), and second only to Scott, Wes Krause. But Scott led by example and few now can appreciate the boldness it took in the years BC (before cams).
As I recall Chardon showed in '81, but I'm certain that Dave and Josh Lieberman were on Touchstone in March, '80. They nearly made the top and later Jones berated the tree, but I remember doing the tree on Royal Arches and feel privileged.
Touchstone didn't go hammerless until May,'81. Fred and I went on it in the mid nineties, but he had trouble with pitch two. I saw him there again recently.

Too bad the DDs don't want to get their charity a big check I don't suppose that they BSed about someone they describe as so abusively litigious.
Why not mollify such a loose cannon?

Risk?


dangle


Feb 11, 2005, 10:04 PM
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Well it was a table of mixed allegiances tonight (a friend of Ammon's sat next to me and called Justin a "f_cking jew". Really! And Ammon told me he hadn't seen any anti-semitism around here!) and Steve did outlast me despite my taking a huge pot when there were two 6s showing on the flop and I got my fourth on the river. Haven't pulled four of a kind often.

John, thanks for a good story and no trash.
Well Scott was not one to crow about higher standards or more walls but he walked the talk. There were others in the '70s especially the NOLS crowd which included Stacy, the Mikes (Alison and Stern), and second only to Scott, Wes Krause. But Scott led by example and few now can appreciate the boldness it took in the years BC (before cams).
As I recall Chardon showed in '81, but I'm certain that Dave and Josh Lieberman were on Touchstone in March, '80. They nearly made the top and later Jones berated the tree, but I remember doing the tree on Royal Arches and feel privileged.
Touchstone didn't go hammerless until May,'81. Fred and I went on it in the mid nineties, but he had trouble with pitch two. I saw him there again recently.

Too bad the DDs don't want to get their charity a big check I don't suppose that they BSed about someone they describe as so abusively litigious.
Why not mollify such a loose cannon?

Risk?


dangle


Feb 11, 2005, 10:08 PM
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damn system.


dmckj


Feb 12, 2005, 9:21 AM
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Gentle Thread Reader,

As tiresome as it is, it becomes necessary to once again 'deconstruct' Dangle's tenuous thread of reason. This is so the reader doesn't lose him/herself in the landscape of his constantly-shifting arguments.

Breaking this down is sort of like hunting the now-extinct passenger pigeon, as follows..

'Dozens of birds sometimes were killed thus at a single shot. In one case seventy-one birds were killed by two shots. A single shot from the old flint-lock, single-barreled gun, fired into a tree, sometimes would procure a back load of pigeons.'

Really....I mean where does one begin? It is too easy, and therefore hardly sporting.

First, Dangle employs lots of Machiavellian and psychological tools to garner 'friends' and support to his 'side', whatever that is (and what, exactly, is his 'side' or 'issue'?). I pointed several of these out earlier in this thread, but let's run through a few of the new ones....

John, thanks for a good story and no trash.

This technique is called 'splitting', where one portrays one as either all good or all bad. Dangle feebly tried this with both Devo and BSmoot earlier this thread. Once he realized that he couldn't split them off they went from being 'good' or at least 'convertible' to being the subject of scorn and members of D.R.O.P.D.E.A.D. (which of course they secretly are). Now they are to be subjected to a lie detector test. One might logically ask: about what?

But splitting John M. off as 'good' presents some serious difficulties for Dangle. This is because Dangle's premise of a conspiracy on my part to usurp and lie about Zion climbing history is based in largest part upon Middendorff's 'brief history'. Now, the author himself comes out and says 'hey it was a brief history and not complete, no bad intentions, etc.' and that's that.

But wait!! Dangle has always implied Deuce was 'in' on the conspiracy as a 'vested interest' (re-read his comments). And now he's not??? But how could that be, because Jones never writes about history (at least until this thread), not once! Not ever!

"KAPFUMP!!!" That is the sound of Dangle's twisted calumnies of 15 years or so collapsing under their own weight. Sort of like in Raiders of the Lost Ark where all of the bad ju-ju ultimately gets sucked back into the Ark of the Covenants and the lid slams shut.

Second: Dangle employs a mix of McCarthyesque and 'Big Lie' tactics.

Example: Dangle states that Jones should just 'come clean' and 'publish' and 'admit' his transgressions.

This recalls Joseph McCarthy getting up and blustering about 'Are you or have you ever been a member of the Communist party? I have documents here that prove....'

As we all know, McCarthy did not, in fact, mostly did not have any meaningful documents. But he brought down a LOT of people in the process.

Again, the simple and ever-present problem is (as stated previously) that there IS no history of Jones presenting histories or bad dates or lying about partners. My topos always have been, and always will be, simple 'truth'. Just as with McCarthy, Dangle tries to imply a non-answer to his charges is a form of guilt. Never mind that the claims he claims were made by myself are nowhere to be found.

(And let's recall, gentle reader, that the only person caught in INTENTIONAL lies about Zion climbing history has been Ron).

This seamlessly leads into the 'Big Lie'. Ron Olevsky has for so long repeated his conspiratorial stories and slander against me that folks accept it as apriori 'truth' (e.g. good example being the well-meaning 'no_one'). Ron, being a keen student of psychology, knows this all-too-well and there is no small irony in the fact that he, who likes to portray himself as a residual victim of the biggest lie of all (the perpetration of the Holocaust and its denial) uses the exact same Big Lie tools that the Nazis did (e.g. 'Work Will Set You Free'). To call this shameless and conflicted would seem to be on the mark.

You see, none of this is about what Dangle says it is. There was no conspiracy, no lies, no deceits, no usurping of any history anywhere (ask Bjonstad and Middendorff). Nothing! The only printed material I ever had anything to do with ('84 climbing) is accurate to the 'T' for the parts I submitted. Since then, until this web site, I had written NOTHING about Zion.

And, the clincher, over the years I never responded to Dangle's lies about his first ascent partners for Spaceshot or his passive presentation (to put it kindly) of Equinox having been freed by he and Straussman (see his latest rap sheet in the R+I article). And yet I am supposed to 'fess up' or 'come clean' about something!!!??? Like what?? (BTW, to clarify a point Dangle thinks he 'got me' on, at the time I wrote 'BG Goes to Zion' I had never met Scott Fisher. I did, however, meet him AFTERWARDS, and this consisted of nothing more than a hello and a handshake. I never knew the guy.)

Meanwhile, the wonderful stories about Dangle on this site are all on the mark and true (well, O.K., maybe the finger of fate wasn't THAT overchalked). As you have read firsthand, Dangle has alienated more partners than most people have ever climbed with, and, yes, he did take me to court over a collect phone call of under $5, even though I had done HIM a favor. And this self-proclaimed protector of the rock has put up drilled pocket-hole routes (complete with drain holes for the drilled deep finer pockets) in Snow and Zion canyons, the most notable of which was in the Temple of Sinawava and wall and he had the gall to call 'Crimes Against Nature' (Not to worry: I erased this route with the help of Mark Austin). Meanwhile, he asks thread readers on this very site as to how to best 'preserve' routes from damage? Breathtaking audacity is about the kindest way one could describe this.

No matter how much manipulative blubbering Ron does, he can't change these simple truths.

Don't worry, more installments are coming your way soon!


dmckj


Feb 12, 2005, 9:24 AM
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(the first post of this had an error...please read this instead)

Gentle Thread Reader,

As tiresome as it is, it becomes necessary to once again 'deconstruct' Dangle's tenuous thread of reason. This is so the reader doesn't lose him/herself in the landscape of his constantly-shifting arguments.

Breaking this down is sort of like hunting the now-extinct passenger pigeon, as follows..

'Dozens of birds sometimes were killed thus at a single shot. In one case seventy-one birds were killed by two shots. A single shot from the old flint-lock, single-barreled gun, fired into a tree, sometimes would procure a back load of pigeons.'

Really....I mean where does one begin? It is too easy, and therefore hardly sporting.

First, Dangle employs lots of Machiavellian and psychological tools to garner 'friends' and support to his 'side', whatever that is (and what, exactly, is his 'side' or 'issue'?). I pointed several of these out earlier in this thread, but let's run through a few of the new ones....

"John, thanks for a good story and no trash." says Dangle.

This technique is called 'splitting', where one portrays one as either all good or all bad. Dangle feebly tried this with both Devo and BSmoot earlier this thread. Once he realized that he couldn't split them off they went from being 'good' or at least 'convertible' to being the subject of scorn and members of D.R.O.P.D.E.A.D. (which of course they secretly are). Now they are to be subjected to a lie detector test. One might logically ask: about what?

But splitting John M. off as 'good' presents some serious difficulties for Dangle. This is because Dangle's premise of a conspiracy on my part to usurp and lie about Zion climbing history is based in largest part upon Middendorff's 'brief history'. Now, the author himself comes out and says 'hey it was a brief history and not complete, no bad intentions, etc.' and that's that.

But wait!! Dangle has always implied Deuce was 'in' on the conspiracy as a 'vested interest' (re-read his comments). And now he's not??? But how could that be, because Jones never writes about history (at least until this thread), not once! Not ever!

"KAPFUMP!!!" That is the sound of Dangle's twisted calumnies of 15 years or so collapsing under their own weight. Sort of like in Raiders of the Lost Ark where all of the bad ju-ju ultimately gets sucked back into the Ark of the Covenants and the lid slams shut.

Second: Dangle employs a mix of McCarthyesque and 'Big Lie' tactics.

Example: Dangle states that Jones should just 'come clean' and 'publish' and 'admit' his transgressions.

This recalls Joseph McCarthy getting up and blustering about 'Are you or have you ever been a member of the Communist party? I have documents here that prove....'

As we all know, McCarthy did not, in fact, mostly did not have any meaningful documents. But he brought down a LOT of people in the process.

Again, the simple and ever-present problem is (as stated previously) that there IS no history of Jones presenting histories or bad dates or lying about partners. My topos always have been, and always will be, simple 'truth'. Just as with McCarthy, Dangle tries to imply a non-answer to his charges is a form of guilt. Never mind that the claims he claims were made by myself are nowhere to be found.

(And let's recall, gentle reader, that the only person caught in INTENTIONAL lies about Zion climbing history has been Ron).

This seamlessly leads into the 'Big Lie'. Ron Olevsky has for so long repeated his conspiratorial stories and slander against me that folks accept it as apriori 'truth' (e.g. good example being the well-meaning 'no_one'). Ron, being a keen student of psychology, knows this all-too-well and there is no small irony in the fact that he, who likes to portray himself as a residual victim of the biggest lie of all (the perpetration of the Holocaust and its denial) uses the exact same Big Lie tools that the Nazis did (e.g. 'Work Will Set You Free'). To call this shameless and conflicted would seem to be on the mark.

You see, none of this is about what Dangle says it is. There was no conspiracy, no lies, no deceits, no usurping of any history anywhere (ask Bjonstad and Middendorff). Nothing! The only printed material I ever had anything to do with ('84 climbing) is accurate to the 'T' for the parts I submitted. Since then, until this web site, I had written NOTHING about Zion.

And, the clincher, over the years I never responded to Dangle's lies about his first ascent partners for Spaceshot or his passive presentation (to put it kindly) of Equinox having been freed by he and Straussman (see his latest rap sheet in the R+I article). And yet I am supposed to 'fess up' or 'come clean' about something!!!??? Like what?? (BTW, to clarify a point Dangle thinks he 'got me' on, at the time I wrote 'BG Goes to Zion' I had never met Scott Fisher. I did, however, meet him AFTERWARDS, and this consisted of nothing more than a hello and a handshake. I never knew the guy.)

Meanwhile, the wonderful stories about Dangle on this site are all on the mark and true (well, O.K., maybe the finger of fate wasn't THAT overchalked). As you have read firsthand, Dangle has alienated more partners than most people have ever climbed with, and, yes, he did take me to court over a collect phone call of under $5, even though I had done HIM a favor. And this self-proclaimed protector of the rock has put up drilled pocket-hole routes (complete with drain holes for the drilled deep finer pockets) in Snow and Zion canyons, the most notable of which was in the Temple of Sinawava and wall and he had the gall to call 'Crimes Against Nature' (Not to worry: I erased this route with the help of Mark Austin). Meanwhile, he asks thread readers on this very site as to how to best 'preserve' routes from damage? Breathtaking audacity is about the kindest way one could describe this.

No matter how much manipulative blubbering Ron does, he can't change these simple truths.

Don't worry, more installments are coming your way soon!


dmckj


Feb 12, 2005, 10:31 AM
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What the critics are saying.....

(I had to post this as it is just too damned funny!)

In reply to:
Just wanted to say how much fun its been following the Zion History Thread. What a hoot!

As predictable as an escaped Vietnamese hooker voluntarily returning
to her brothel, Ron finally shows his face again. With the grandiose flourish of an oratory wino on the third straight day of a non-stop bender, the man crawls out from under the pile of baked mouse turds to attempt a complete reinvention of the playing field.

Fortunately, you beat him down quickly and summarily, with the speed and precision of a lexicological surgeon. Other than the excellent tack you took with your latest responses, perhaps it might be in order to up the financial stakes to some ridiculous level commensurate with the mocking Ron deserves for his "bounty."


dangle


Feb 12, 2005, 10:47 AM
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to the rest of you,
Its crappy weather.


To Jones,
I think you are protesting just a little too much. I got on John's case and still await a response on the Iron Messiah issues.

15 years of slander? Well Scott hasn't been gone 9 years yet and besides telling the truth about who deserves credit for the late seventies (and with all your hot air you haven't said word one on THAT) where is the slander?

For example, I haven't said something like "your obsession with the possession of friendship harkens to grade school."
Nor have I said, "you point out my loss of friendships because you're overly sensitive about the many you've lost. Did Stan Adams climb any more with you? We put up one of the best routes in the Reef in '87. Did Mike Stults? Saw him last week. And what of your other partner on Moses? You called him a few weeks later?"
(Most desert climbers have seen my name with Dave Mondeau's on some of our best climbs, but still another never saw publication. More on Abbey Tower later.)
Nor have I repeated any of the things that you said about your fellow DDs like when I saw you the day after I met Mike in the Kolob when he was driving with a friend to soCal. That really WOULD be 'splitting'. Rather it pleases me to now see you all as a "team".


Once again. In cyber-space. Where is the list of '70s Zion FAs ???(or didn't you suggest on pg 7 that you were indeed a '70s pioneer?)
What is the response of the DROP DEAD-Woods alliance to my offer?

What's the matter? Don't want my money? Jones, you were the one who requested a check.

OK folks adjust your thermostats. More hot air on the way....


brianinslc


Feb 12, 2005, 10:51 AM
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In reply to:
Personally, I'm fascinated by the folks in the 30's who made the first forays on the wild vertical there.

Me too. I've always been curious about especially the ascent of Cathedral. Feller that climbed it in the early 30's (?) supposedly did it in a day from the valley floor. I'm wondering what route he may have taken to ascend to the summit. Only way that seems reasonable is to drop into Behunin then wrap around and ascend up low angle slopes to the mesa. From there...it still seems a bit of a scramble to top out on Cathedral. We traversed around the summit block and the only "easy" option we found was a 5.4ish solo scramble for 50 or so feet up the eastern side. Once on top, no evidence of a prior ascent (we spent a fair bit of time combing the area for cairns, etc). Pretty interesting.

What I wonder is...did the feller just climb one of the Majestic summit blocks (the easier one located to the north with the lower angle slope) and maybe that was back then, what was referred to as "Cathedral" since its a bit higher (6955' versus 6930')? Pretty amazing ascent, either way, given the times and that there wasn't any Walter's Wiggles back then, either.

Great history, John. Folks have apparently been descending the canyon you pioneered between Abraham and Isaac as a canyoneering route. Pretty neat. I'm guessin', with flowing water, you had a bunch of swimming in there? Must have been pretty brrr cold after the initial welcome wetness.

Thanks!

-Brian in SLC

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