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bandidopeco
Feb 12, 2005, 4:01 AM
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(FS: sorry if this has already been covered, and I know it most certainly has)
I was climbing today at the Road Cut in Donner summit when I noticed for the first time that there was a manufactured route (Drilled finger pockets in granite). Now Donner is a pretty big place with plenty of quality routes, both sport and trad, and Big Chief and other sport climbing areas are near so why drill a route there? Smooth finger pockets in granite can be interesting, but isn't there something distastefull about doing this? Also does the fact that it's the road cut, essentially a manufactured wall, change the circumstances making it at least somewhat ok?
Just looking for some opinions.
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mccooljc
Feb 12, 2005, 4:19 AM
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I haven't climbed that particular wall at Donner, but if this at an actual road cut, my guess would be you were seeing drill holes from the construction of the cut. I know I've played around at roadside cliffs where there were a lot drill holes making for some V-nothing bouldering, but it always looked liked construction holes - regular spacing, grid-like in some cases. Perhaps someone more familiar with road construction practices could answer that. I've seen holes like similar to that enough that I don't think there's that many people wanting to manufacture super-easy routes...
Jason
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billcoe_
Feb 12, 2005, 4:25 AM
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Did the road crew also put somebolts in near the pockets so you can sport lead it? :oops: :lol:
And yes: there's plenty wrong with it if that's what really happened. I'm sure there who will see nothing wrong with it though. Follow up discussion of similar issues on ethics here:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1001450#1001450
That entire donner area is just so sweet. Good luck. Whatever happened to the high stanard ethics of California of Bachar, Robbins and a whole host of others?
Any predictions on the next steps? 1st) More drilled "routes". Next) some soul will charge admission after the area gets published in Climbing Magazine. Finally) the authroities will close it down to control the huge parking mess created:
Good luck with it.
Bill
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bandidopeco
Feb 12, 2005, 4:40 AM
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No, these were definitly Drilled finger pockets. They were up high on a route (it's next to that 11b to the left of the gully), abnormally spaced with varying widths, from one finger to 4. They were usually drilled into those little pockets of non-granite (probably as camo) but a couple were in the granite. The route has 3 bolts on it and would not be possible without them. also they are very shallow, just perfect for one digit.
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bandidopeco
Feb 12, 2005, 2:51 PM
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I know that you never manufacture holds at places like Donner, but does the fact that the Road Cut is man-made make it a tiny bit less unethical? I would say no, but I'm sure there's other opinions.
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dirtineye
Feb 12, 2005, 3:27 PM
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The camel is never happy to only have its nose in the tent.
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dlintz
Feb 12, 2005, 4:03 PM
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In reply to: The camel is never happy to only have its nose in the tent.
Preach it brotha!! Stop it before it starts.
d.
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kalcario
Feb 12, 2005, 4:43 PM
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Penguin Lust? Sure those are drilled? I've done that route a bunch and it didn't seem manufactured to me...even if it is, it's a road cut, so it's pretty much anything goes, right? Gonna cry about chipped holds on a dynamited cliff?
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colqueerio
Feb 12, 2005, 4:45 PM
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Spaceman Spiff, also on that roadcut, is drilled. Those pockets you grabbed
were most certainly manufactured. Boo-yaa.
Re the roadcut-chipping issue: Does raping someone in prison mean it's not rape?
Chipping is for the weak, not matter what the venue.
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bandidopeco
Feb 12, 2005, 6:32 PM
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This route is neither Spaceman Spiff nor Penguin Lust. It is not in the guide book, but if you climb Hit and run you'll notice three bolts off to the left. I think the route starts on Hit and run and traverses to the left after the 2nd bolt after the ledge. I don't know about the other 2 routes mentioned, but this one is almost entirely drilled.
I thought I'd bring this up to try to disuade anyone from further drilling.
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bandidopeco
Feb 12, 2005, 6:40 PM
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This route is neither Spaceman Spiff nor Penguin Lust. It is not in the guide book, but if you climb Hit and run you'll notice three bolts off to the left. I think the route starts on Hit and run and traverses to the left after the 2nd bolt after the ledge. I don't know about the other 2 routes mentioned, but this one is almost entirely drilled.
I thought I'd bring this up to try to disuade anyone from further drilling.
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dkennedy
Feb 13, 2005, 6:34 PM
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Most of the routes on road cut have some amount of manufacturing. They were done by several different people probably ten or more years ago. The justification more or less was that since it was a non-natural crag to begin with, manufacturing routes was okay.
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bandidopeco
Feb 13, 2005, 7:55 PM
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Ok, I thought it might be that. I'm still kind of iffy on drilling holes, but i'll quit whinning as long as the road cuts remains the exception to the rule.
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ikefromla
Feb 13, 2005, 9:05 PM
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In reply to: Ok, I thought it might be that. I'm still kind of iffy on drilling holes, but i'll quit whinning as long as the road cuts remains the exception to the rule. |
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abalch
Feb 18, 2005, 11:38 PM
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It all comes back to situational and local ethics.
There is an area up in Washington State, called Fossil Rocks, that everyone knows is rife with manufactured climbs. While there are a few natural cracks, etc., a fair bit of the area has chipped holds, cracks that have been comfortized by piton bashing, and even in a few cases, rocks that have been glued or bolted to the wall to provide holds. One of the routesetters at Fossil Rock is responsible for the couple manufactured climbs up cocaine gulley at Smith Rock, which I think now have been removed, but can be foudn referenced in the guide book. His last name was Yoder, and he lacked a great deal of ethics.
I wandered, but the point is, Fossil Rock is a chosspile that noone objected much to people doing whatever they wanted to the rock, being that it is out in the boonies surrounded by rednecks that would go out and have keggers in the woods, and shoot at the rocks. When Yoder came to Smith, he thought he could do the same thing, but was quickly corrected. If I remember, from the Smith Rock Guide Book, one route even had holds from a home gym bolted to the face, and still was about 5.11
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nrgroscoe
Feb 23, 2005, 8:09 PM
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I gew up climbing @ Donner in the early 80's and i remember when rap bolting started there and where it would lead. And it did in the late 80's and early 90's with the chipping and glue.
It was bad ethics and style back then to even consider such pussy ass short cuts, you got your ass whopped for even thinking about it. Until sport climbing took hold and killed all ethics and style.
Now 20 something years later it's funny to see people all upset over something that should have been stopped a long time ago. change is good and a part of all life and sports- what is bad is when ego drives the change and the mags hyped it up to make $$$$.
So if you want to care again like i do, go fill in the pockets, chop the bolts and while your at it- go to the cokkie cliff and chop Cookie Monster as it was a pure trad line at one time and now the most popluar .12 in the valley. What's next, bolts on wheat thin?
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shazinky
Feb 23, 2005, 8:42 PM
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To compare chipping or drilling holds to rap bolting is just lame. Several years ago I was climbing at the cut with a well known climber I believe the route we were on is called the "far side" in the guide, just about every hold was manufactured. And on top of that dude tells me his bro who is 6'+ set the route for his particular height.
Many years later and every route I have been on that was put up by said well known climber has had no less than three manufactured holds. I have been on routes of his from Owen's to Tuolomne.
Anyone who does this at any crag anywhere deserves equipment failure.
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cfnubbler
Feb 23, 2005, 8:49 PM
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Personally, I'm adamantly opposed to any drilled pockets or chipped holds on natural cliffs. I see no room for any exceptions, ever.
But on a road cut, or in a quarry, I feel differently. The whole thing has been chipped with explosives! I don't have a problem with it for the most part. Now if a route in at an artificial cliff has gone free (manufactured or otherwise), then adding enhanced holds seems to me to be absolutely out of the question. Retro-chipping! Boy would that get folks riled up....
I don't really find the slippery slope argument against manufactured routes very compelling. The line seems pretty clear to me...quarries, road cuts, etc. might be appropriate places for manuffactured routes. Any place else is out, period.
By the way, how does something like Sphinx Crack fit in? I know it wasn't deliberate, but it was manufactured!
-Nubbler
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