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tradrenn


Feb 12, 2005, 9:20 PM
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FAlling on trad gear in Limestone
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:lol:


sonso45


Feb 12, 2005, 10:52 PM
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Re: Folling on trad gear in Limestone [In reply to]
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don't fall, place your gear properly but trust yourself more. Limestone trad placements are good as long as you rely on substantial rock around the gear, obviously, the little nubbins are gonna break. Placing gear in a crack is best placed deeper inside rather than near the edge. Be careful and climb softly. M


creemore


Feb 12, 2005, 11:47 PM
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Falling on trad is serious buisness. The rockies limestone adds some issues defenetly. If you need to learn the proper falling techniques, stick to a gym and bolts.

Aid climbing a little(A1-2/C1-2) often helps to see how your placements react with weight. Instead of just plugging in your pro, you get a better look. If you need to toprope the first time, fine but don't get use to it.

After that you might feel more confident in the hole rope system and therefor push your limits a little at a time.

If you judge that a move is harder than usuall (5.8-9) and are physically able to attempt the moves, place your gear (with your new knowledge) and decide to trust it or not depending on the quality of your placements. If you decide to "go" don't comit halfassed, go for it fully expecting to fall (considering pro + fall factor + location of fall) but not wanting to. If it comes, so be it ! Often you have to trust in the process and paths a revealed along the way. All of a sudden your past the crux.

Now if you are on a route that the gear is marginal to start with, keep in mind who made the first accent and his/hers style of climbing. If they were ballsy, it means the route was done like that and is meant to be done like that. So now it's time to decide again: trust your climbing skills or bail to come back another day (or toprope it first if your like that) stronger and more prepared. Whatever your decision, live with it and don't lie about it.

Also, it's very common for trad climbers to be scared on climbs, it's just about the way you deal with it. And not every climber progresses at the same speed, this is a very personal sport.

A good read : The rock Warrior's way.

Keep on the sharp end and put miles on the rock to become more use to it!


esallen


Feb 13, 2005, 9:03 AM
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Re: Folling on trad gear in Limestone [In reply to]
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Sewing up lines is great practice/experience for placing pro. The more you climb the better you get.

Eric


jumpingrock


Feb 13, 2005, 9:55 AM
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I hear it's a bad idea to fall on gear in limestone.

That said, I've done it, as you know. How did I get the balls to do it? Hell if I know. Perhaps because I am only "maybe" dating somebody. ;)


granite_grrl


Feb 17, 2005, 8:47 AM
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I started gear climbing in Nova Scotia on nice solid granite. I'm like you, I'm having issues with trusting my placments in Ontario slimestone.

I was thinking of going out and trying some easy aid (as mentioned by creemore). Looking at your profile I assume that you're climbing on the same cliffs that I am (Milton area). Send me a PM if you ever want to hook up and try some easy aid with me.


hoppinbig


Feb 17, 2005, 9:08 AM
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Best tip for you is to place gear early and often. The larger the surface area of your pro - the greater the chance that it will hold. Why not set up at TR with lots of slack and 2 belayers... practice falling on your pieces and see what holds and what does not.

I climb alot of trad in and out of Ontario... I would say there are places to push your upper trad limits - and ontario limestone ain't one of those places. Limestone is made for great sport climbing... For the most part the gear climbs on the escarpment are lame and contrived... nothing like the beautiful cracks you find in sandstone or granite.


speedywon


Feb 17, 2005, 12:52 PM
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I'm not so sure falling on gear just to test it is wise. :shock: If you really need to test it to feel confident in it, top rope it and then place gear to test. This makes an error in gear placement a learning experience for you, not the city morgue. :wink:


tradrenn


Feb 17, 2005, 5:19 PM
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:lol:


hoppinbig


Feb 18, 2005, 6:40 AM
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I'm not so sure falling on gear just to test it is wise. :shock: If you really need to test it to feel confident in it, top rope it and then place gear to test. This makes an error in gear placement a learning experience for you, not the city morgue. :wink:

Practice those reading skills Speedyone as this is exactly what i recommended.


gohighgodeep


Mar 6, 2005, 4:21 PM
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Re: Folling on trad gear in Limestone [In reply to]
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shouldn't have any problems with gear in limestone catching a fall... its more solid than sandstone, thats for sure... as long as the gear is placed right, you should be fine.


chanceboarder


Mar 6, 2005, 6:14 PM
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here's something you can do to try to learn the limits of your gear and your placements at the same time. take your rack out and while on the ground practice placing it and then bounce testing it to see if you can get it to fail. just place a cam or a nut or a hex and attach a sling or an aider to it, stick your foot in it and put your weight on it and try to get it to fail, its sorta like taking a fall on your gear but without the danger of really hurting yourself. other people have suggested aiding with your gear which is good way to practice the same thing if you know how to aid, but the disadvantage of that is that you only know that your placement can hold body weight and often times even a crap placement can hold body weight. bounce testing your gear gives you the advantage of being safe on the ground and comes closer to simulating an actual fall on your gear, plus you can practice many different placements and gives you more time to work with them and really look at how well your placements hold in the limestone.

if you're a 5.7 climber on gear and you're still fairly new to trad climbing (not sure how long you've been climbing for) you don't want to be testing your leading ablity and your gear placement ability at the same time. get the mileage of placeing gear at a comfortable climbing level until your solid with your gear placements and you trust them fully. then you can start trying to push your leading ability. thats the best advice anyones ever given me since i started climbing.

be safe and have fun.


moss1956


Mar 6, 2005, 6:22 PM
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Tradren,
Get some tricams. They work the best on limestone.

Don't set gear in wet or dirty rock and don't set it behind flakes.

Don't fall, the gear is just for looking good.

If thats a problem get another hobby.


Partner gunksgoer


Mar 6, 2005, 6:36 PM
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other people have suggested aiding with your gear which is good way to practice the same thing if you know how to aid, but the disadvantage of that is that you only know that your placement can hold body weight and often times even a crap placement can hold body weight. bounce testing your gear gives you the advantage of being safe on the ground and comes closer to simulating an actual fall on your gear, plus you can practice many different placements and gives you more time to work with them and really look at how well your placements hold in the limestone.

you know you can also bounce test your gear on aid, chief :righton:

bounce testing in aiders will yield far more force on your gear than just tugging on a sling from the ground. ive heard that very hard bounce testing can put forces on gear reaching the 4 digit mark. i think that both playing with gear on the ground and on aid will help in getting a feel for good placements. happy climbing, and be safe. -ws


tradrenn


Mar 6, 2005, 6:37 PM
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:lol:


chanceboarder


Mar 6, 2005, 6:58 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
other people have suggested aiding with your gear which is good way to practice the same thing if you know how to aid, but the disadvantage of that is that you only know that your placement can hold body weight and often times even a crap placement can hold body weight. bounce testing your gear gives you the advantage of being safe on the ground and comes closer to simulating an actual fall on your gear, plus you can practice many different placements and gives you more time to work with them and really look at how well your placements hold in the limestone.

you know you can also bounce test your gear on aid, chief :righton:

bounce testing in aiders will yield far more force on your gear than just tugging on a sling from the ground. ive heard that very hard bounce testing can put forces on gear reaching the 4 digit mark. i think that both playing with gear on the ground and on aid will help in getting a feel for good placements. happy climbing, and be safe. -ws
good point you can bounce test your gear on aid, but bounce testing on lead when you're aiding creates the danger of taking a good size fall if that gear your testing blows. i'm talking about while on the ground place some gear put aiders on there if you have them or a sling if thats all you got then step on it and not just give it a tug or a little bounce like you would on aid but get on there and pretty much jump and bounce as hard as you can on it to really test the limits of that placement. when i learned trad and aid i was always taught to know my gear can take a fall but don't take a fall on your gear if you don't have to. its a risk you shouldn't have to take.


skinner


Mar 6, 2005, 7:56 PM
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ummm... why are you so frightened of limestone?


jeff788


Mar 6, 2005, 7:59 PM
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one thing that helped me to learn to place gear properly is to climb with more experienced climbers. Watch how they place, follow their pitch and examine their placements as you clean them. Have an experienced climber to the same for you and critique your placements. If you don't feel entirely comfortable leading something climb it on toprope placing gear as though you were leading and have someone else follow. At the end of the day it is really falling on gear that builds your confidence in gear, and there is no easy way to get there.


geezergecko


Mar 7, 2005, 6:22 AM
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ummm... why are you so frightened of limestone?
Because it's treacherous rock. First off, it's weaker than granite. Second, it consists of the shells of ancient diatoms with the odd vertebrate skeleton thrown in to provide unpredictable fracture lines. Third, acid rain perforates it in less than visible ways. I've had solid jugs break off on me. Slabs that detach with just a step. Like I said, it's treacherous.


skinner


Mar 7, 2005, 11:57 AM
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Because it's treacherous rock.
Well.. I never really saw it as "treacherous" outside of the inherent dangers of climbing itself, I just viewed it as *Rock*.
Maybe it's due to the fact that I didn't know of any other rock for my first 15 years of climbing. The first time I climbed on granite, I thought every route was graded too high. I have been climbing extensively on limestone for 30 years now. Yes an old fart who grew up climbing through the Iron Age" and have progressively re-fitted my rack with the latest technology as it emerged. I still carry a variety of these forms of protections, both new and old as the nature of limestone does not always lend itself to nice clean passive proplacments. At one point or another I have taken a good whipper on every type of pro available while climbing on limestone. The only reason for this is that I am not afraid to take a good one on well placed pro of any kind in limestone. Yes, limestone has different properties then granite or sandstone (which I find the scariest), but once you realize this and climb and place pro appropriately you will find in an amazing and safe rock to climb.
While everyone is flocking to the clean and well (over) protect granite walls, I will be meandering around on a beautiful piece if virgin limestone.
Don't get me wrong, I love granite, and sandstone, although like I mentioned, sandstone scares the crap out of me sometimes due to the lack of options for placing pro, how soft it can be, and how your whole world and situation can change after a rain storm. But I feel that learning how to climb on, and protect yourself properly on all types of rock, contributes to becoming a well rounded climber that is able to easily adapt to the situation should it suddenly change, or become "out-of-the-ordinary".
But please take all my babbling with a grain of salt, as it is just the *personal opinion* of a crusty old climber.. still climbing.
Great Topic BTW.


granite_grrl


Mar 7, 2005, 12:36 PM
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Skinner - As with lead climbing in general: its all in your head. If you started climbing on Limestone, are used to it, taken falls where your pro holds, you can be comfortable on it.

Now if you're me, who started on bomber granite, then moved to Ontario where I pulled a block the size of a big hard cover book off a popular sport climb in the area last year, you might be a little unerved by the limestone around here.

Wish I could have your confidence on this rock, I really do. My rack didn't get the attention it deserved last season.


troutboy


Mar 7, 2005, 12:47 PM
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Because it's treacherous rock. First off, it's weaker than granite. Second, it consists of the shells of ancient diatoms with the odd vertebrate skeleton thrown in to provide unpredictable fracture lines. Third, acid rain perforates it in less than visible ways. I've had solid jugs break off on me. Slabs that detach with just a step. Like I said, it's treacherous.

Not exactly. Diatoms are only one type of marine invertebrate which might have contributed to a given limestone. Limestones formed (usually) in shallow marine environments from calcium carbonate deposition from shells of invertebrates (yes, with some possible vertebrate remains thrown in) AND from chemical precipitation of calcium carbonate from the metabolism of those invertebrates.

Limestone (like most rocks) has a wide range of grain size, porosity, fractures, and strength. The very fine grained, mostly precipitated limestone of the Verdon Gorge and Ceuse in France are very solid and stable. Some highly fossilized coarse-grained limestones will fall apart if you look at them cross-eyed. Another factor is the amount of pressure exerted on the material after deposition. Greater pressure generally results in more consolidated rock. There are limestones that are less fragile than some granites and vice versa. It really depends on the individual rock unit and depositional environment.
TS


skinner


Mar 7, 2005, 5:41 PM
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My rack didn't get the attention it deserved last season.
I have to admit that my rack has a lot to do with how confident I feel on a particular route. If I was shy of gear and placing pro that was not the best choice, but was based on the best of what I had with me I would probably be a little nervous too.
If I was to rack all the gear I own, I would have a hard time lifting it and doubt that I could climb with it. I rack based on the climb/rock. Usually I my instincts are pretty good and for the most part I end up carrying more gear then I need. Some partners have baulked at the amount of gear I will carry, but I justify it by telling them that it was just to increase the training effect. :wink:


shorty


Mar 7, 2005, 5:50 PM
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My rack didn't get the attention it deserved last season.
......must.......not.......comment......


snakeman


Mar 7, 2005, 6:02 PM
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